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Change for samus in next release

Subtle One

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You won't shut up about usmash. Remember who actually brought it up in the first place? Not me. The guy who actually brought it up is still buzzing around this thread like a gnat. Maybe you should get on his case about it.


Don't talk about me like that. I've never said Ice Mode is useless. I've said, in fact, that it's too useful, and centralized around fair. That's, in fact, my first post.

I've said on multiple occasions that anything that points to the potential of Ice Mode as support for its inclusion is bull****, because it has no logical end. It could literally be used to support the inclusion of any mechanic on any character. Justified opinion about what the character is supposed to be all about is absolutely necessary to provide direction on what to include, because without it you just get Brawl-. No one has actually been able to show me that my views, on what Samus's game plan is, are unjustified. Once I lay them out, and the reasoning behind them, everyone says, "well that's just your opinion."

No one has actually been able to demonstrate either that ice mode complements my interpretation of Samus's playstyle, or that their opinion is upheld by anything but sheer novelty. And that's not to say novelty is not something to be included, rather it should be focused in areas where there was nothing to begin with. Brawl characters, Melee characters that had anemic or no gameplans, Clone Engine Characters... these are great places to try out new things. But Samus had a pretty robust kit in Melee. She is not a place for novelty.
I'm not here to convince you ice mode is necessary, it's useful and there's no reason to take it out besides you don't think it fits her playstyle after playing with it for a few months. She got an aggressive aerial and more options.

Even if it was just for novelty Samus finally got a weapon switch that many appreciate solely because it's a big part of her character in all her games. If anyone deserved it she did. But that's my opinion and I won't pretend otherwise.
 

Chevy

Smash Ace
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Don't talk about me like that. I've never said Ice Mode is useless. I've said, in fact, that it's too useful, and centralized around fair. That's, in fact, my first post.

I've said on multiple occasions that anything that points to the potential of Ice Mode as support for its inclusion is bull****, because it has no logical end. It could literally be used to support the inclusion of any mechanic on any character. Justified opinion about what the character is supposed to be all about is absolutely necessary to provide direction on what to include, because without it you just get Brawl-. No one has actually been able to show me that my views, on what Samus's game plan is, are unjustified. Once I lay them out, and the reasoning behind them, everyone says, "well that's just your opinion."

No one has actually been able to demonstrate either that ice mode complements my interpretation of Samus's playstyle, or that their opinion is upheld by anything but sheer novelty. And that's not to say novelty is not something to be included, rather it should be focused in areas where there was nothing to begin with. Brawl characters, Melee characters that had anemic or no gameplans, Clone Engine Characters... these are great places to try out new things. But Samus had a pretty robust kit in Melee. She is not a place for novelty.
I feel like you are too attached to preconceived notions of what Samus should play like and what stance change characters in traditional fighting games should play like. I don't see a reason why we should adhere to set protocol on either of these things, I like the way ice mode is implemented. Actually managing to switch mid-combo through taunt-cancel is very satisfying, and having another move set just for the sake of mixing up your options and making your opponent adapt is reason enough. Plus it's FUN. Also, Samus is like 80% novelty, that's why I like playing her.
 

Hapajin

Smash Apprentice
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How about that black hole gun from Prime 2? I think it's the Darkburst.

That would be fun
 

Litt

Samus
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How about that black hole gun from Prime 2? I think it's the Darkburst.

That would be fun
How about... one we just ended the thread already, two, this was not meant to be a social thread it was serious and meant for the PMBR to look over should they get the chance for legitimate... no place for a black hole gun and now you are becoming too fanboyish like ph00t bag, this is smash bros not metroid, going to game specific takes away from the game we are playing...
 
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Narpas_sword

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Dark burst would only fit in if there was a possibility that pmbr wanted to change final smashes per costume. Which, while absolutely ****ing awesome, won't be done.

The slot dependant gfx was a treat for doc and won't happen for anyone else (from nanobuds iirc)
 

Hapajin

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How about... one we just ended the thread already, two, this was not meant to be a social thread it was serious and meant for the PMBR to look over should they get the chance for legitimate... no place for a black hole gun and now you are becoming too fanboyish like ph00t bag, this is smash bros not metroid, going to game specific takes away from the game we are playing...
Haha sorry I came off as serious but it was a joke. I really don't mind what they do with Samus, I think she is fine currently and I trust the PMBR.
 

Litt

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Haha sorry I came off as serious but it was a joke. I really don't mind what they do with Samus, I think she is fine currently and I trust the PMBR.
Lol well I dont, thats why I made this thread xD
 
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ph00tbag

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I feel like you are too attached to preconceived notions of what Samus should play like and what stance change characters in traditional fighting games should play like. I don't see a reason why we should adhere to set protocol on either of these things, I like the way ice mode is implemented.
I am attatched to a notion of what Samus should play like. That should be obvious, given I played her to the exclusion of every other character in Melee. I kinda really liked the way she played in Melee.

And my statements about stance changes come from deriving the logical ends of design decisions relating to stance change mechanics. Stance change mechanics should work a certain way, if their goal is to encourage frequent switching, because the cost/benefit analysis just works that way. If the cost/benefit analysis is , you get a mess. Viz. PM 3.1 Samus.

Actually managing to switch mid-combo through taunt-cancel is very satisfying,
And once it becomes second nature, it loses this quality, and you're left wondering why something so potentially central to a character's gameplan is so limited.

and having another move set just for the sake of mixing up your options and making your opponent adapt is reason enough.
Then let's give everyone a stance change. Extra moves for everyone. In and of themselves, extra moves are reason enough for their inclusion.

Plus it's FUN.
Imagine if this mechanic had been scrapped before the release of 3.0, and no one mentioned it, and for all you knew, Samus was just plasma. Would you honestly think she was any less fun?

Also, Samus is like 80% novelty, that's why I like playing her.
I'm not talking about Samus's obscure tricks. You're misunderstanding what I mean by novelty. I mean injecting something new into characters that wasn't really expressed in Smash effectively before. Samus is a poor place to do this, because she had a pretty robust kit to begin with. This contrasts with Zelda who had all of five moves in Melee, and got an expanded gameplan in PM that used a unique trap-laying system.
 

Narpas_sword

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We get it. Noone agrees, noone is going to have their mind changed by you.

This: "I am attatched to a notion of what Samus should play like. That should be obvious, given I played her to the exclusion of every other character in Melee. I kinda really liked the way she played in Melee."

Probably applies to most players here. At least myself. You don't like it, we do.

Now make like a good boy and Shhh
 
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ph00tbag

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Except I've actually presented an argument that can be rationally evaluated. This change was unnecessary, had nothing to do with Samus's gameplay style in Melee, and is currently poorly implemented. This can be argued whether you like the way the character plays now or not. But no one has been able to argue that it is necessary, that it has anything to with Melee Samus, or that it is well-implemented. Instead, you say, "we like it this way." Not only is this irrelevant to my argument, but it is defeated by absurdum.

You all started this whole debate by trying to say my suggestion is invalid, and I've merely defended myself. It's really on you to shhh.
 
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Hapajin

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What do you guys think of having an alternate beam type for her standard special?
 

Narpas_sword

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Again, I don't think it's something that they'd change, though I'd definitely love the actual beam yo change to coincide with the stance.

I'd only want it to be a visual change though
 

Chevy

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I am attatched to a notion of what Samus should play like. That should be obvious, given I played her to the exclusion of every other character in Melee. I kinda really liked the way she played in Melee.
Then play her like Melee, additional options aren't stopping you from doing that.

And my statements about stance changes come from deriving the logical ends of design decisions relating to stance change mechanics. Stance change mechanics should work a certain way, if their goal is to encourage frequent switching, because the cost/benefit analysis just works that way. If the cost/benefit analysis is , you get a mess. Viz. PM 3.1 Samus.
There's no argument here, you just keep speaking in absolutes with no hard data, which is because there cannot be hard data when this is purely opinion.

And once it becomes second nature, it loses this quality, and you're left wondering why something so potentially central to a character's gameplan is so limited.
No, I'm just thankful that I've brought that particular mechanic to full potential, and get warm fuzzies.

Then let's give everyone a stance change. Extra moves for everyone. In and of themselves, extra moves are reason enough for their inclusion.
A stance change fits Samus' character, and helps her in situations she struggled in without having to buff her or change her core gameplan. This isn't true for the rest of the cast.

Imagine if this mechanic had been scrapped before the release of 3.0, and no one mentioned it, and for all you knew, Samus was just plasma. Would you honestly think she was any less fun?
This is a trap question, of course I wouldn't think she was less fun. And someone who has never seen the sun cannot miss it's warmth.

I'm not talking about Samus's obscure tricks. You're misunderstanding what I mean by novelty. I mean injecting something new into characters that wasn't really expressed in Smash effectively before. Samus is a poor place to do this, because she had a pretty robust kit to begin with. This contrasts with Zelda who had all of five moves in Melee, and got an expanded gameplan in PM that used a unique trap-laying system.
You say she doesn't need it, I say she does. Ice helps in a lot of match-ups, and given the amount of new match-ups in this game, it's an excellent tool to prevent having to switch to a secondary character.
 
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Litt

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Ok well lets get this **** started... why samus needs the ice moveset in Project Matchup... I fully believe that in this game skill is not like inches on a ruler, but rather measured in gaps of feet on a yard stick, scrub, mid level and top player. Where is possible to overcome a difficult match up in between feet, but since you dont just improve in inches, its more feasible to just counter pick a character instead of working that much harder to get better with the one that you main. Samus is unique in the aspect that most of her bad match ups become more fair with choosing the correct beam for the game/match, but even still its not 100% enough to keep up with all match ups, which is why I suggested giving the ice moveset a faster falling speed, so to really balance out the character and make her more adaptable to the match up, if you are a floaty that is combo food for another character, switching to ice will help kill them sooner, but its not going to stop them from wracking up damage like a mofo...
 

ph00tbag

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Then play her like Melee, additional options aren't stopping you from doing that.
This isn't about how one person plays the character, this is about the playstyle that the character's design encourages.

There's no argument here, you just keep speaking in absolutes with no hard data, which is because there cannot be hard data when this is purely opinion.
I'm not sure what you mean by hard data in this context. I start from the assertion that stance changes are designed to encourage the use of both stances as actively as possible. This is based on observations about other characters that change their mode over the course of a match. In ComboFiend's balance video for Gen in USFIV, he mentions that it's a problem that players favor mantis over crane, and lo, crane stance received several buffs. Switching is fast for Gen, and each stance has clear advantages over the other in different situations. Valkenhayn's wolf mode in BlazBlue is unquestionably better than human, but is limited in how long it can be used. Switching is fast, cancels attacks on hit, and occurs automatically when Valkenhayn is hit. I can go on and on. The fact that the player is never actively punished for switching, and is intended to have good reason to switch, and use both modes, is a common thread throughout these characters. You asked why such protocols are necessary when implementing a stance change. My answer boils down to, "if you aren't going to actively encourage the use of both modes through clear boundaries of utility, and low-cost switching, why bother having the stance change at all?" Your response incorrectly labels my challenge as opinion, while retreating to the fallacy that your opinion is valid, even if it's unjustified.

A stance change fits Samus' character, and helps her in situations she struggled in without having to buff her or change her core gameplan. This isn't true for the rest of the cast.
It does change her core gameplan. That's exactly what I've been saying the entire time. It forces the player who's playing to win to consider which stance is more valuable at any time, and build their gameplan around having access to that stance. That is a change in core gameplan. This would be true for any character. So if getting more moves is your justification for making such a core change to a character's gameplan, then it is justification for doing so to any character. If you disagree with this conclusion, then your assertion that "having another move set... is reason enough," is untenable with that disagreement.

This is a trap question, of course I wouldn't think she was less fun. And someone who has never seen the sun cannot miss it's warmth.
Well, that's why I asked the question, because it demonstrates why "because it's fun" is an arbitrary justification. It could be applied to anything, even leaving the character totally untouched. If you don't like trap questions, then don't use arbitrary justifications.

You say she doesn't need it, I say she does. Ice helps in a lot of match-ups, and given the amount of new match-ups in this game, it's an excellent tool to prevent having to switch to a secondary character.
But the things Samus needed could have been handled without adding in a mechanic that totally changes the character. I'm serious. Buff Plasma usmash, put in 64 bair. That's all she needed. You're wrong when you say she needed a stance switch in order to deal with a few problem situations, because all that was needed were a couple moves.

Even if it was just for novelty Samus finally got a weapon switch that many appreciate solely because it's a big part of her character in all her games.
Only noticed this just now, but apparently this needs to be cleared up again. Two of her games. Beam Switching is an important mechanic in two Metroid games. All other games stack beams or only allow Samus to carry one beam at a time.
 

Chevy

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I'm not sure what you mean by hard data in this context. I start from the assertion that stance changes are designed to encourage the use of both stances as actively as possible. This is based on observations about other characters that change their mode over the course of a match. In ComboFiend's balance video for Gen in USFIV, he mentions that it's a problem that players favor mantis over crane, and lo, crane stance received several buffs. Switching is fast for Gen, and each stance has clear advantages over the other in different situations. Valkenhayn's wolf mode in BlazBlue is unquestionably better than human, but is limited in how long it can be used. Switching is fast, cancels attacks on hit, and occurs automatically when Valkenhayn is hit. I can go on and on. The fact that the player is never actively punished for switching, and is intended to have good reason to switch, and use both modes, is a common thread throughout these characters. You asked why such protocols are necessary when implementing a stance change. My answer boils down to, "if you aren't going to actively encourage the use of both modes through clear boundaries of utility, and low-cost switching, why bother having the stance change at all?" Your response incorrectly labels my challenge as opinion, while retreating to the fallacy that your opinion is valid, even if it's unjustified.
What I mean is, you can't objectively tell me why constant stance changing is better. You continually list a bunch of examples of how it's been done in TFGs, rather than give me a legitimate reason as to why it should be implemented this way in smash. Don't know why it's a fallacy that my opinion is valid, I certainly never called yours invalid.

It does change her core gameplan. That's exactly what I've been saying the entire time. It forces the player who's playing to win to consider which stance is more valuable at any time, and build their gameplan around having access to that stance. That is a change in core gameplan. This would be true for any character. So if getting more moves is your justification for making such a core change to a character's gameplan, then it is justification for doing so to any character. If you disagree with this conclusion, then your assertion that "having another move set... is reason enough," is untenable with that disagreement.
Perhaps I should have explained better, core gameplan kinda excludes ice mode for me, because I use fire 90% of the time. If I'm in ice, I'm no longer in my standard mode. Maybe I should say it doesn't change her standard game plan in fire mode, which I like. I like the way fire mode plays.

Well, that's why I asked the question, because it demonstrates why "because it's fun" is an arbitrary justification. It could be applied to anything, even leaving the character totally untouched. If you don't like trap questions, then don't use arbitrary justifications.
It ceases to be an arbitrary justification when everyone else but you enjoys ice mode. We find it fun and flavorful, I fully believe I wouldn't enjoy the character as much without it, even if I had never known about it.

But the things Samus needed could have been handled without adding in a mechanic that totally changes the character. I'm serious. Buff Plasma usmash, put in 64 bair. That's all she needed. You're wrong when you say she needed a stance switch in order to deal with a few problem situations, because all that was needed were a couple moves.
They did buff fire up-smash, it's very useable now. And her current b-air is already very good. Sure, she didn't need ice mode to deal with certain predicaments, but adding a mode tailored for them reduces the amount of straight buffs she has to get to compete. I prefer to have to think about what beam is better over just being a better character, which could potentially skew some already good match-ups farther in her favor.

Only noticed this just now, but apparently this needs to be cleared up again. Two of her games. Beam Switching is an important mechanic in two Metroid games. All other games stack beams or only allow Samus to carry one beam at a time.
But she's always had multiple beams, and this is the most sensible way to represent that. Even in Super Metroid, you can switch by disabling plasma, enabling ice.
 
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Subtle One

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But the things Samus needed could have been handled without adding in a mechanic that totally changes the character. I'm serious. Buff Plasma usmash, put in 64 bair. That's all she needed. You're wrong when you say she needed a stance switch in order to deal with a few problem situations, because all that was needed were a couple moves.


Only noticed this just now, but apparently this needs to be cleared up again. Two of her games. Beam Switching is an important mechanic in two Metroid games. All other games stack beams or only allow Samus to carry one beam at a time.
You're missing the point.

Samus has copious amounts of weapon types across all her games. Giving her more of those weapon types to expand her game in Smash universe makes more sense and is much more interesting than anything you're suggesting to fix her short comings. PMBR is doing it right and you're thinking way too hard about it lol.

"Stance changes in other games work like this blah blah blah" that doesn't actually say anything except you don't like her stance change cause its not like other games stance changes. Ice mode still good and fun though.
 

ph00tbag

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What I mean is, you can't objectively tell me why constant stance changing is better. You continually list a bunch of examples of how it's been done in TFGs, rather than give me a legitimate reason as to why it should be implemented this way in smash. Don't know why it's a fallacy that my opinion is valid, I certainly never called yours invalid.
I'm not saying it's better, I'm saying it's consistent with introducing the mechanic at all. If you're going to introduce the mechanic, you want the player to use both, so you design it so that either is better for specific situations, then you make it easy to switch when those situations arise. This isn't about liking it. This is about noting that the way it's implemented is sloppy.

Perhaps I should have explained better, core gameplan kinda excludes ice mode for me, because I use fire 90% of the time. If I'm in ice, I'm no longer in my standard mode. Maybe I should say it doesn't change her standard game plan in fire mode, which I like. I like the way fire mode plays.
This is a product of the sloppy implementation. You spend most of your time in Plasma because there's only occasionally reason to switch, and even fewer times when it's also convenient. If it were implemented like a proper stance change, it would be very central to the character.

It ceases to be an arbitrary justification when everyone else but you enjoys ice mode. We find it fun and flavorful, I fully believe I wouldn't enjoy the character as much without it, even if I had never known about it.
No it doesn't

Sure, she didn't need ice mode to deal with certain predicaments, but adding a mode tailored for them reduces the amount of straight buffs she has to get to compete. I prefer to have to think about what beam is better over just being a better character, which could potentially skew some already good match-ups farther in her favor.
This too, could potentially skew already good match-ups. Either way, the balance of the character design can still be called into question. The point remains that adding a new mechanic just to find the same problems as before was unnecessary.

But she's always had multiple beams, and this is the most sensible way to represent that. Even in Super Metroid, you can switch by disabling plasma, enabling ice.
I see no reason to assume the "beams" that she uses in her beam attacks aren't fully stacked.

Samus has copious amounts of weapon types across all her games. Giving her more of those weapon types to expand her game in Smash universe makes more sense and is much more interesting than anything you're suggesting to fix her short comings.
You can't just introduce mechanics because they're interesting. This isn't Brawl-.
 

Subtle One

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You can't just introduce mechanics because they're interesting. This isn't Brawl-.
Yes, yes they [PMBR] can. The fact is they didn't. Instead of giving Samus actual unnecessary buffs or old unnecessary moves, like you're proposing, they give her an expanded tool kit. This makes sense because that's what Metroid games highlight...expanding tool kits to fit certain situations.

Lol ice mode makes PM=\= brawl-?
 
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pizzacato

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LOLOLOL TL;DR
Emma ugh.gif


Once this stuff happens, no one can take it seriously. Not even me, and especially not the PMBR.
This is what I got:
Barbie is sad that she gets ignored now.
Subtle One is Barbie's new favorite.
Barbie doesn't hate Narpas anymore.
Ph00tbag is the new KLit, and somehow the new Narpas.
Chevy and Ph00t are in a catfight.
and that Ice mode is an alternate moveset, which means you don't have to use it.

Also Melee exists, and is actually, imo, the better game. <3
 
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Chevy

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I'm not saying it's better, I'm saying it's consistent with introducing the mechanic at all. If you're going to introduce the mechanic, you want the player to use both, so you design it so that either is better for specific situations, then you make it easy to switch when those situations arise. This isn't about liking it. This is about noting that the way it's implemented is sloppy.
It is easy to switch, Samus is good at making space.

This is a product of the sloppy implementation. You spend most of your time in Plasma because there's only occasionally reason to switch, and even fewer times when it's also convenient. If it were implemented like a proper stance change, it would be very central to the character.
If sloppy implementation == ice mode is poorly balanced, then i agree.

Yahuh.

This too, could potentially skew already good match-ups. Either way, the balance of the character design can still be called into question. The point remains that adding a new mechanic just to find the same problems as before was unnecessary.
Unnecessary != uncool.

I see no reason to assume the "beams" that she uses in her beam attacks aren't fully stacked.
Flavor whatever.

You can't just introduce mechanics because they're interesting. This isn't Brawl-.

Yes you can. That's what makes the game fun, I like fun games. If they go overboard it becomes uninteresting, but it works for Samus. If the mechanic is restricted to Samus, then it's fine.

P.S. Melee is terrible, shame on you @ pizzacato pizzacato
 
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Litt

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It is easy to switch, Samus is good at making space.



If sloppy implementation == ice mode is poorly balanced, then i agree.



Yahuh.



Unnecessary != uncool.



Flavor whatever.




Yes you can. That's what makes the game fun, I like fun games. If they go overboard it becomes uninteresting, but it works for Samus. If the mechanic is restricted to Samus, then it's fine.

P.S. Melee is terrible, shame on you @ pizzacato pizzacato
Hahhahaha noooo melee is definitely the better game, just check EVO ;P
 

Chevy

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Hahhahaha noooo melee is definitely the better game, just check EVO ;P
I watched EVO, it was cool. And Melee is a great game, but i'll take a viable roster of 41 over a viable roster of 8. Also music, graphics, stages, etc. The only reason I want to play Melee is for Melee tethers.
 

DrinkingFood

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Comparing Melee at EVO to PM is unfair, considering you're looking at gameplay developed over the course of 12 years (and among every single top player), a chance no characters in PM have had yet. Several haven't even had a year, others have had 3 years or less but most have seen enough significant changes that they are equivalent of 2 years old at most.
I actually agree that Melee is more fun to watch, but I'm not stupid enough t think It's anything outside of hyper-developed gameplay and top players having history and stories that enhance hype.
 

ph00tbag

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Chevy, you were literally the last person in this thread that was being respectful and presenting a decent argument. Please, don't turn into Narpas and KLit. They're not cool. If all you can present against my argument is that you like it better this way, that's fine. Just don't tell me that my opinion isn't justified by a thorough rationale if you can't actually dismantle that rationale.
 

pizzacato

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Sorry @ ph00tbag ph00tbag :/
You do have a good argument, I respect that. Iirc because tl:dr, you are arguing for how Samus has been handed broken move-sets and removes skill from playing this lovely goddess of a character, furthermore removes bad MUs.
@ Chevy Chevy is arguing that she is, in fact, being handed something that gives the character flow and purpose.

These are very subjective opinions that belong here and there is no reason to exclude them.


IMO, here's how you play Samus anyway in any move-set:
good shot.gif


But here's what we have to always remember:
cocky.gif
 

Chevy

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Totally didn't realize this was a link before. Anyway, since this is subjective, there isn't something to be realized as "true" because of mass support. I was merely trying to state that mass support can be cause for inclusion, when the mass that supports it is the body that it affects.

Chevy, you were literally the last person in this thread that was being respectful and presenting a decent argument. Please, don't turn into Narpas and KLit. They're not cool. If all you can present against my argument is that you like it better this way, that's fine. Just don't tell me that my opinion isn't justified by a thorough rationale if you can't actually dismantle that rationale.
Don't worry about that lol. I'm just sick of arguing about this, we're at a brick wall and I don't have the effort anymore.
 
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Narpas_sword

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I like a good debate.
but as i said, this is a debate on a subjective opinion, there is no debate.

no amount of debating will ever 'prove' someones opinion wrong. there just wasn't any point.

At that point I decided to harass you until you posted a big spiel about Fair being the center of the video, so i could be a smartass and say that it counters your previous thoughts of Upsmash being too much of a focus. =p
 

ph00tbag

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I'm of the persuasion that saying its a matter of opinion is just refusing to make the effort to justify said opinion.

After all, if you can't critically examine your opinions, how can you critically examine anything?
 

DrinkingFood

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"But ph00t, what If I critically examine my opinions and it turns out they are wrong?!?!? I can't handle cognitive dissonance!"

Secretly I think there isn't an argument here. You guys just have different takes on how Samus should play, but she is a fictional character and there is no set in stone way to determine how fictional characters should play. There's also the fact that ice mode isn't going anywhere and isn't going to change significantly.
 
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Narpas_sword

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its the wrong kind of opinion though. if it is an opinion that can be resolved with facts sure. but its you, saying YOU dont think it suits how YOU think samus SHOULD play.

its a stupid thing to argue.
 

ph00tbag

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There's also the fact that ice mode isn't going anywhere and isn't going to change significantly.
Yeah, I'm all too well-aware of this, but if someone asks, my response isn't going to suggest high regard for the thought process behind it.
 
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