Change for samus in next release

[Chevy]

Even with DI, you're basically taking every hit of upsmash, which is a lot of percent. Even big characters like DeDeDe suffer to every hit of upsmash, and the move is clearly designed for fast fallers, not fat fallers.

DeDeDe is a semi-fast faller to be fair. I think the hitboxes on Samus' body just need to be thinned out for up-smash, that would make it match better visually and stop it from sucking people in so well.

Dude, they should actually made tether grabs... good... they have been a horrible addition to almost every game so far and its such a risk to throw them out, if you do, you should at least get SOME reward instead of little to no follow ups... even lukas has a kill throw, at least make it 2-3x longer and or faster or just give samus a kill off a throw ffs

Yeah tether grabs are dooks, but that's one of Samus' weaknesses, and characters
should retain their weaknesses, otherwise everyone is Pit, Lucas, Mewtwo, etc. Tether grab works for Samus alright anyway, there's plenty of situation where you can force it or use it as a mix-up. I would like Melee standing range back though, so it's not just worse than her dash grab.

I would be pretty bummed if they nerfed Samus' ice fair. I feel like her ice gameplay would be too similar to her fire mode if they did that. The amazing fair and usmash make the semi-useless ice fsmash and dtilt. (fsmash is pretty good if you hit the right spot). Maybe it's just how I play though. I treat that ice fair like it was forged from falcon's knee sometimes, hahaha. I thing they should add some stun to the ice mode. (It's ice so it should "freeze" them, right?) That way it would still be totally different than her fire mode.

Her moves in ice mode still have entirely different properties, so she's still play fairly differently.

Plus, I need something better than the fire fair when I **** up my nair and do a fair on accident.

Don't diss fire f-air, it does 25%. 25! It's not even that hard to hit with every hit of it. That's insane, and it combos into charge shot/missiles sometimes.

It's funny that you say the melee is slower, Chevy. Feels faster to me, but I just started playing melee again a couple days ago and I've only been playing project m for about 3 months so you'd know better than I. Honest;y, everything in melee seems a little sped up to me. It's been awhile since I've dusted off the ol' melee.

Yeah, it's all visual trickery I think, slightly different animation makes it look weird, whateva.

Her recovery is amazing enough where a shorter tether would def be a fair call. I really hope they don't mess up her bomb jumping skills. I feel like a faster FF would do this.

I'd rather she keep her tether length, because not having Melee tethers and only 1 tether is a nerf that she doesn't need. Also faster FF wouldn't affect bomb jumping, you reset vertical momentum when you drop a bomb.

Samus definitely has the tools to adapt to just about any situation.

Trust in the Samus and the Samus will trust in you.

Yes.

EDIT: Zair has I think 19 frames landing lag btw. Any fast character can just run in and punish a lot of the time if they block it.

 

[Chevy]

So this is probably just related to stage collision but I figured I would post it anyway. Aerial Interrupt is horrible in PM. You need to input the up-air way later to auto-cancel it from the ledge, leading to next to no invincibility, if any. This is something I'd like to see fixed and maybe will be with 3.5 engine updates.

 

[pooch182]

I barely use it in PM because of this. Honestly, I find it easier and just as effective to do an impact-less landing on stage into a f-tilt or whatever, should I choose an option of that sort from the ledge.

 

[ph00tbag]

I barely use it in PM because of this. Honestly, I find it easier and just as effective to do an impact-less landing on stage into a f-tilt or whatever, should I choose an option of that sort from the ledge.

I'm fairly sure this was the intent of her current design.

Because Melee.

 

[Narpas_sword]

so, i edited the PSA a bit, to see how a sheik-physics samus works.

Holy lol, its funny.

Aside from no recovery because i didnt change upB, or bombs, its mental.

Fire missiles like falco fires lasers =p
Shffl Ice Fair. felt weird =p

 

[robosteven]

so, i edited the PSA a bit, to see how a sheik-physics samus works.

Holy lol, its funny.

Aside from no recovery because i didnt change upB, or bombs, its mental.

Fire missiles like falco fires lasers =p
Shffl Ice Fair. felt weird =p

That sounds incredible and I want to try this.

 

[Narpas_sword]

I was doing it as a thought to separate fusion samus from normal (coupling ice to fusion, giving her more mobility etc)

So as to work like @ Litt said, with one form being a faster faller, but without the luxury of changing during a match.
It kinda makes sense because samus in Metroid 3 is super floaty, but in Metroid 4 shes more of a fast faller.

Was thinking of changing her moves up a little to separate them further.
Changing bombs to shinespark (something like wolf >b) since bomb jumping as a faster faller wont work
Changing the Screw attack angle a bit.
Removing Zair (fusion has no grapple beam)

and changing some properties of the attacks to make her more of a juggler.

 

[CBO0tz]

I had an idea:
What if the Neutral B could become the Ice Beam if charged only during Ice mode?
My idea was that it could have more hitstun like Lucas' PK Freeze when shot with no charge, but hit like a DK fully charged punch at full charge..
I have a feeling it might not be as good as I thought though.

 

[Litt]

I was doing it as a thought to separate fusion samus from normal (coupling ice to fusion, giving her more mobility etc)

So as to work like @ Litt said, with one form being a faster faller, but without the luxury of changing during a match.
It kinda makes sense because samus in Metroid 3 is super floaty, but in Metroid 4 shes more of a fast faller.

Was thinking of changing her moves up a little to separate them further.
Changing bombs to shinespark (something like wolf >b) since bomb jumping as a faster faller wont work
Changing the Screw attack angle a bit.
Removing Zair (fusion has no grapple beam)

and changing some properties of the attacks to make her more of a juggler.

Soooo took a while but cmon you have to admit that would be amazing to have a tank like sheik phyisics samus in ice mode, amirite?!?

 

[Narpas_sword]

too amazing i think lol.

 

[Litt]

too amazing i think lol.

Finally someone else who can see over the mountain top. Instead of throwing more of the same at her, (different tools) we need to reframe the fudimental aspects of the character that made her weak. Applying second order change is what I am taking about, to combat the issues that pigeonheld samus as a mid tier for over a decade, should this form be applied to ice and a player is able to effectively use and switch between forms, I would not be afraid to call samus a top tier character. The question lies with the PMBR if they would actually implement or adopt such a drastic change to what we all know to be samus.

 

[Narpas_sword]

It would be too good, like better than a zelda sheik player. If you separate ice mode to a different samus (fusion) so you have to go with one or the other, then you're looking balanced.

A fast falling samus needs missiles nerfed though. Firing missiles like Falco fires lasers is not cool

 

[Litt]

It would be too good, like better than a zelda sheik player. If you separate ice mode to a different samus (fusion) so you have to go with one or the other, then you're looking balanced.

A fast falling samus needs missiles nerfed though. Firing missiles like Falco fires lasers is not cool

It actually is cool though, because the crux of falco's laser is you HAD to avoid, shield or powershield, samus's missiles you can, jab, nair, fair, foward tilt, shield, powershield, ect... they are really not that good of a projectile, especially since theoretically the zair would be gone

 

[Narpas_sword]

can you jab ice homing missiles?

cant test, but i remember them being the only ones that stop a diddy's >b.

Either way, despite them not being as good as falcos lasers, theyre still a lot more harder hitting, only takes one to land at decent % to get an advantage. people complain about missile spam as it is (with platforms) imagine that anywhere. People will hard *****.

i guess if ice samus is more like falco than shiek (with **** all recovery) it would work. make her a glass cannon type.

 

[Litt]

I wouldnt mind a glass canon, but really it wouldn't be too OP because her ice projectiles were designed by the PMBR from scratch i believe which is why they have strange priority, same with the bombs that go through shileds (<- supposedly they are removing that in 3.5) So that leads me to believe they are prob changing that as well so her ice missiles wouldnt be too OP, the fast fall with that morph crawl would be the OP part because she is also even more of a CC tank if she became a fast faller :O :O

 

[pooch182]

It'd be neat to see what they can do with her jetpack. I wouldn't mind trying out a build where she had a float for UpB instead of Screw Attack. Maybe not so much control as Mewtwo's current float, more on the side of Peach but with very slight vertical control. You'd probably need to change bombs so that bomb-jumping for a ton of horizontal recovery wouldn't be stupid with the new jetpack, so they could change bombs to being static upon placement. Bombs definitely need tweaking to be more useful on-stage, because they have the potential to be one of the most fun tools in Samus' kit, but as they're designed right now, they kind of suck unless you can manage to bomb behind your opponent's shield.

If Samus was designed to be more trap-oriented, it'd be interesting to see. Ice d-tilt sets up an ice patch that can be tripped on, static bombs with longer fuses, ice f-smash makes the opponent an ice block (similar to IC's blizzard). So much potential in making Ice Samus an entirely different character than Plasma Samus. . .

Also, even though I'd probably never get to see it, it'd be amazing to have a new Final Smash. I'd love to see 'the baby' pour its energy into Samus like the end of Super Metroid, and Samus gets Hyper Beam on a timer. Sorry for being a geek-ass nerd, but I had nothing else to do right now.

 

[Chevy]

I actually really like bombs as they are. I feel that they are just really underdeveloped for anything other than recovery(which most Sami still do suboptimally). Like, there's so many mix-ups available when you combine the sudden maneuverability with the pop-up for a pseudo-shorthop(and being able to waveland out of that), shrinking your hurtbox, SWD, and them actually working as a mine to cover approach options. There's a lot of room for cool bomb stuff, but no-one does it.

 

[Litt]

I actually really like bombs as they are. I feel that they are just really underdeveloped for anything other than recovery(which most Sami still do suboptimally). Like, there's so many mix-ups available when you combine the sudden maneuverability with the pop-up for a pseudo-shorthop(and being able to waveland out of that), shrinking your hurtbox, SWD, and them actually working as a mine to cover approach options. There's a lot of room for cool bomb stuff, but no-one does it.

Ahemm... I do that stuff, been doing it since melee, most people dont even know that when you bomb jump off stage you can actually do a mini aerial dash dance while still in morphball bomb jump to throw off your opponent as to your next move, whether its bomb again, fast fall into up b, nair on stage, or just tether

 

[Narpas_sword]

you say 'mini aerial dash dance while in morphball'
i say 'ball wiggle'

 

[Litt]

you say 'mini aerial dash dance while in morphball'
i say 'ball wiggle'

Ball wiggle just sounds dirty though ;p

 

[Samuch]

I actually really like bombs as they are. I feel that they are just really underdeveloped for anything other than recovery(which most Sami still do suboptimally). Like, there's so many mix-ups available when you combine the sudden maneuverability with the pop-up for a pseudo-shorthop(and being able to waveland out of that), shrinking your hurtbox, SWD, and them actually working as a mine to cover approach options. There's a lot of room for cool bomb stuff, but no-one does it.

I agree, bombs are great(to me they seem even better in melee). You can use them for edge guarding, getting across the stage, stopping combos, and best of all confusing the **** out of an opponent. Not sure why we don't see more people using them for anything other than SWD or recovery. Why aren't more people using these mix-ups?!

One thing I've been trying and not sure if it works is to jump at an opponent, bomb when I am in contact with them so that it explodes right away(kind of like a shine), pop up a bit from the explosion where I can then dair them. Absolutely no idea if it works, but it sounds awesome.

Whenever I play falcon, and I get bounced up and lined up for a big black knee to the face, I can usually get a bomb off that stops the knee. When I play ice mode, one killer move I like to do is to drop a bomb, go behind it a bit and right before it explodes, dash forward to get that air and then ice fair their ass. Works most of the time if I don't make it too obvious what I'm doing.

I do a lot of other things, but I'm somewhat new to smash and I'm sure they are basic bomb moves that everyone does, but bombs are really cool. I've made the people I play with hate bombs. bwahahaha...

 

[pooch182]

Shield pressure into bomb dair is a Darrell combo. It's how you break shields.

 

[Samuch]

Shield pressure into bomb dair is a Darrell combo. It's how you break shields.

Not sure if you're responding to me, but I haven't seen anyone do anything like jump at an opponent when they are in the air and bomb them to bounce up -> dair. Again, no idea if it's even possible. I never think about it when playing.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Ball wiggle just sounds dirty though ;p

that's why i say it when playing =p

hard for someone to time their edge guard laughing lol

Not sure if you're responding to me, but I haven't seen anyone do anything like jump at an opponent when they are in the air and bomb them to bounce up -> dair. Again, no idea if it's even possible. I never think about it when playing.

Poor man pillar. it 'works' but not really.
i.e. you can do it to someone not expecting it.


I like to place bombs and smash so people try to block, forgetting it drops their shield.

 

[Chevy]

You're probably not gonna break a shield with bomb combos in PM given that they go through shields currently. But yeah, bomb-dair is fantastic if the opponent doesn't expect it, if they begin to shield then you can just bomb again and repeat. If they wisen up and try to anti-air you, wavebomb grab is the way to go.

 

[TreK]

I saw something about increasing the sdi multiplier on fire usmash, and I kinda disagree.

With grounded multihit moves, you don't get to follow your opponent's SDI, unlike with aerial multihit moves. So if your opponent is able to SDI out of it, then he will SDI out of every single one of them, except if you missed the first few hits on purpose. The move basically becomes worthless. I have seen it happen with Ivysaur's ftilt and it is not pretty.

Best case scenario, pikachu's dsmash, it sets up a tech chase. Worst case scenario, Ivysaur's ftilt, it is punishable on hit.

 

[pooch182]

Something needs to be done about fire upsmash, though. If it's so safe to the point where I take a game off Mew2King's Falcon because of it, it needs to be altered.

I do agree to an extent about the SDI multipliers being unnecessary, but I can land a d-tilt on a fast faller at 0% and it leads to a free up smash and then they're at 30% for nothing. Maybe nerf the damage it does or something.

 

[TreK]

In that case they could alter the last hit's bkb/kbg/angle to make it less susceptible to link into itself, or make the hitboxes slightly smaller or whatnot.
Personally I'd be like "**** it, fast fallers are designed to function despite taking punishment" but maybe I underestimate the move :V

 

[ph00tbag]

I'd rather see the damage/knockback nerfed. SDI making multi-hit grounded moves worthless is a pretty big deal. Considering Samus has no quick counter to full-jumps or drop-ins that keeps her grounded other than usmash, making it worthless gives Samus a massive disadvantage.

 

[Chevy]

Honestly, I think fire up-smash is fine other than the hitboxes that stick out of Samus' torso. Two hits for 30% isn't really a big deal in the grand scheme of things. And part of the reason it always links is because no-one DIs the last hit properly.

 

[Narpas_sword]

looks like dacus' for everyone.

what are we more excited about, Ice dacus or Fire Dacus?

 

[TreK]

Both of them !

It's possible she gets a gatling combo instead and I doubt it'd link correctly but we'll see :V

 

[Litt]

looks like dacus' for everyone.

what are we more excited about, Ice dacus or Fire Dacus?

da FUc is a DACUS?

 

[TreK]

It stands for dash attack cancel up smash
The input is dash -> C-down -> up+Z (release Z to stop charging)

It's a Brawl AT that lets you slide across a character specific distance while doing an up smash. The distance you slide depends on your character's traction (Samus's is low so she'd go far) and your dash attack's momentum in the first few frames of it (I'm guessing Samus's is fast, so she'd slide far), so for some characters, doing a dacus is worthless because it does not give them more distance than a simple running up smash.
In the current and previous versions, only characters with a 4 frames or more long jump squat could perform a dacus, but they've announced yesterday that in 3.5, everyone will be able to perform one, allowing characters with 3 frames jump squats like Samus to perform it. Time will tell if she slides one inch or the length of Final Destination, we can't really foresee that.

There are a couple variants :
-the gatling combo : on characters whose dash attack has a low enough startup, low enough that it is able to hit before the end of the dacus window, you can hit with both the dash attack and the up smash in a single dacus. There are characters who can't do a dacus but can do a gatling combo (Ivysaur and Falco come to mind) because they abuse the hitlag of the dash attack to extend the dacus's input window, characters who can do both (Puff and Game and Watch in example) and characters that can only do the dacus, not the gatling combo (anyone with a slow dash attack).
-the dash attack cancel grab : instead of inputting up+Z, you input either just Z or back+Z to perform a dash grab and a pivot grab respectively. This will let you slide as much as your dacus, while doing a grab instead of an attack. If you can do the gatling combo, you can also do a gatling dacg.
-the dash attack cancel item toss (dacit) : while holding an item (in Brawl you could pick up items with dash attacks so it was actually a bit better), you can initiate a dash toss and then cancel the dash toss with a toss in any direction. The input is the same as a dacus except you press any direction+Z instead of up+Z. The distance you slide is different than the distance you slide during your dacus, I believe.

I'm surprised you haven't heard of it, it's pretty much the one AT that my fellow Brawl players keep on ranting about whenever they hear somebody say that Brawl is not tech-heavy enough for their taste. It's one of the least useful techniques in Brawl, it's just that it was one of the firsts to be discovered and it gets a lot of attention because of it.
As far as Brawl techniques go, there are a handful of them I'd consider much more representative of today's metagame. It's all about that platform cancel and foxtrot dashdance bro.

 

[Litt]

I have heard of it, I just know samus didnt have one, therefore I never concerned myself with learning it, I still doubt I will unless 3.5 is mechanically better of a game

 

[Narpas_sword]

If it's a decent length, it should work like a mini swd into up smash. With the start up of a dash attack instead of a bomb

 

[Phantomarchangel]

There are a lot of interesting arguements presented here and I've a bunch of stuff I didn't know samus could do. I've only been playing Project M for a few months now so I apologize in advance if I say something noobish, just plz correct me where I'm wrong.

I would like to see the Ice mode dtilt buffed as mentioned before as well as an easier mode switch too. I think some of her priorities should be changed too. For example I noticed that her missle can beat Lucario's charged ball shot but can't beat Mewtwo's charged shadow ball. Both Mewtwo and Lucario's shots have almost the same range and dmg but for some reason she loses the exchange to Mewtwo. I also noticed her neutral air kick is not as potent as it was in Melee. In Melee it was one her most solid moves but now it seems to either only clash or lose to other characters aerial exchanges.

 

[Chevy]

Lucario's charge shot does less damage, so Missiles can trade with it. Mewtwo's does I believe 25% compared to 12% on an un-staled fire smash missile. A projectile needs to do 9% more to beat another projectile, so logically, Lucario's must do less than 21%. And I'm fairly certain that Samus' n-air is almost identical to Melee.

 

[Narpas_sword]

'Priority' is a bit of a misnomer.

aerial to aerial its really just about spacing.