ES Lite
The Real Slim Shady
I would love PMBR forever if they added the Extendo back into the game
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Change for samus in next release
- Thread starter Litt
- Start date
Im super excited about seeing Ice modes hitboxes in 2.5 =)
Honestly the ice d tilt should have reduced damage and just leave an icy patch on the ground for say 8 seconds, and they give the effect of dittys bananas to force a tech situation so samus can get harder reads more often since we dont have any sure kills or follow ups off throws (yes this is DI dependent for the Ice Fair and Up smash after a downthrow for the majority of the cast, so if they DI well... you dont get the hit, this is just clarifying for players out there that don't play opponents that Di well all the time) Game and watch, and charizard get instant tech chases off downthrow, why not give one to samus
I like it. a very different use.
also
also
lmao exactly that PMBR just code sub zero's down tilt for samus ;PI like it. a very different use.
also
ice beam really needs something that actually freezes the opponent instead of her gun to club people with.
I mean i like it (especially vs floaty) but, it's not metroid
I mean i like it (especially vs floaty) but, it's not metroid
Last edited:
thuusssss my suggestion of fusing sub zero and samus.... sub-zero-suit-samus xDDDDDD <3
players make characters annoying. not the character.
unless its sonic. hes a **** no matter who plays him.
unless its sonic. hes a **** no matter who plays him.
JUST SPAM DOWN B... nothing sonic can do besides try to fair you, but you can shield then UP B OoS... the MU is broken is samus's favor
FoxBlaze71
Smash Lord
Just make Samus' beam do this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zhk1eACrfE
All of her problems will be solved.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zhk1eACrfE
All of her problems will be solved.
its not the matchup, its the sonic is a douche part. even seing him on the CSS gets me salty
FoxBlaze71
Smash Lord
Glad to help.
robosteven
Smash Lord
Smash 64 bair tho.
They already considered that as an option, and honestly its the same thing as her ice fair with longer range... so not really a necessary change
robosteven
Smash Lord
I don't know about necessary, but that sounds like it would be an amazing buff. Her ice fair is pretty damn stronk.
HugS recently did an AMA (ask me anything) on reddit & said that Samus could use a slightly lower Short Hop & slightly faster fast fall. What do you guys think?
http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/c..._hugs_a_grizzly_10_year_smash_veteran/cjv39h7
http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/c..._hugs_a_grizzly_10_year_smash_veteran/cjv39h7
pinkdeaf1
Smash Ace
What can samus currently do with her current fast fall? She can fast fall to a land-cancelled missile... and I don't know what else. She could use the faster fast fall to get back to the ground faster from juggles.
If we changed her short hop, we'd be required to spam missiles differently. If we were to have a nerfed missile game from this, I will not be happy. Even if we could short hop to land-cancelled missile faster, If I can't effectively platform cancel my missiles, I will be disappointed.
SHUT THE **** UP, I HAVE BEEN SAYING THAT FOR ABOUT A YEAR NOW
robosteven
Smash Lord
yeah but HugS said it so it's different
i still think any weight / physics changes should be allocated to a fusion suit samus.
Go suck a massive robotic shlong you schmuck
Last edited:
robosteven
Smash Lord
Dr. Doom/Samus new OTP
Anyways, random thought post. Would it be reasonable to speed up grapple beam by 1 frame? I think a shinespark effect on dash attack is a good idea. What was the point of ice dtilt again? Do you think a stage list with GHZ & FD hurts Samus too much? How do you think tether changes will effect our bounty hunter?
Last edited:
Chevy
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2014
- Messages
- 736
Slight grab buff would be reasonable, her grab is booty, but I'd rather just get Melee standing grab length back. Ice dtilt is decent at punishing missed sweetspots, but she has better options, so it just kinda sucks. I don't think GHZ & FD is too bad, you can still just strike them, bottom row is pretty good for her overall. Tether changes will make us have to recover smarter. Just have to learn and implement all of our available mixups. Her recovery will now actually be worse than in Melee, which is a bummer.
Last edited:
I notice Samus players in PM use her tether as a pretty free recovery option so I'm curious how losing that effects her survivability/ overall viability. Do you guys think a strong recovery should stick with Samus despite the PMDT nerfing them? I think she should keep it as it was essential to her melee game & we need her to remain strong in the new PM environment.
With that in mind, current tether is pretty mindless. There's little reason to recover any other way & Samus has plenty of mixup options to utilize.
With that in mind, current tether is pretty mindless. There's little reason to recover any other way & Samus has plenty of mixup options to utilize.
Chevy
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2014
- Messages
- 736
Even with the tether nerf, Samus will probably still have the best overall survivability. It'll still be a top tier recovery, and she's the 5th heaviest in the game. Just learn how to do rising grapple, it'll be an important secondary option after your first tether.
Wavedash length is the result of other things, not a variable they assign. You'll end up ****ing with something else in order to adjust the length. Also it's fine.
DUDE... again I said that in the OP... the WD needs to be longer and the forward tilt, either changed to the way it was in melee or faster, they say its the same but I call bs :/
Eisen
Smash Ace
Not to try to overstep my bounds here as a lower-level player and a newer Samus, but isn't it possible some of you ask too much from Samus? She's already in the "really good but not stupid good" category of PM, which is a good place to be, I think.
My question to you all would be: what does Samus need, versus "what would be cool" if she had (which isnt always a good thing)? Consider her playstyle in this theoretical equation here. What kept her down in Melee? What truly keeps her down in PM, versus what intrinsic truths exist (there are 50 times more Fox and Marth players to discuss and come up with new strategies). Next, look at what she already has. Buffed recovery (for now), buffed usmash (plasma), extra + GOOD usmash (ice), fair kill move, better bombs, easier swd, huge zair. I could go on, but I actually don't know exactly how she differs from melee.
What I can say is that not every option needs to be super good. As a former Lucas main, I can tell you right now this is his main flaw. Everything combos into everything and everything kills or sets up for a kill. It's BORING. The thing I like about Samus so much is that I actually have to think according to Samus' style. I really feel like I'm playing as the character when I'm playing her in Project M, albeit with some discrepancies, but I don't think it's possible to give a character ALL the tools of their franchise without giving the character too much. These ideas about freezing the ground, swd having hitboxes or intangibility, is the kind of stuff that gets characters the nerf hammer, and ultimately dilutes their styles, I think.
From what I've gathered playing Samus over the past few months, the only nerfs/buffs she could really use are:
- nerfs to zair
- buffs to grab?
- nerfs to tether recovery (happening)
- MAYBE a faster fastfall, but I think this weakness is actually something that makes her unique. Just because 50% of the PM cast has no weakness, doesn't mean Samus ought to. I'd rather not see her be the next Lucas or Link.
- I've seen a couple posts about her ftilt being booty, but I don't see it personally. But, I didn't play Melee Samus, so I have no say on this.
As for ice beam and buffing dtilt and fsmash, I don't see why it's that necessary. Ice mode gives you a different style to play as. It's an option; you're not required to use Ice beam EVER; Samus by default starts with fire mode and you're not required to taunt. Ice beam gives you:
- HUGE upwards kill range which works well on other floaties/lightweights
- amazing pressure/stage control options with ice fair
- infinite-range missiles
I don't see why it wouldn't be fair for two of her moves to be worse in return. To me, I see ice dtilt and fsmash as mixup options; something an opponent won't see coming, and will disorient them. That in itself is a valuable option. You could set up perfectly and have them expecting to get a hitconfirm with, say, Fox nair approaching you from behind on the ground. What good options does Samus have that'll hit in time, right? Then ice fsmash hits and Samus has control again. Sometimes the best place for a move is reseting the neutral and being unique to other moves. You want icedtilt to kill? just dsmash. Fsmash could connect a little better, but as far as I know it doesn't put Samus in a bad position if you use it properly. The hitbox isn't required to work for you because you connect it, is what I'm getting at.
Again, I've yet to become an "expert" on Samus, but this is just the opinion/perspective of someone who's USED an overpowered character and knows generally what constitutes it. While I may think Samus is mostly fair, it doesn't necessarily mean I think she'll do well. It's firmly my opinion that other cast members need to be brought down, rather than Samus being brought up. Starting about Metaknight up on the tier list, I believe characters need nerfs, minor and major. This would include Lucas, Fox, Falco, Mewtwo, Diddy, Sonic, Mario, Pit, and maybe Link and Zelda. I base my "needs nerfs" list not so much on how a character places, but more on the tools they have vs the weaknesses against them. For example, Link and Mario may not be placing top, but they certainly have the tools to be gimmicked in ways that make the game more about centralizing the game around abusing the character's overall strengths than using those strengths to make solid metagame decisions, if that makes sense? With Zelda, a problem I have with her is the automatic edgeguards she posesses. It literally takes away the option of grabbing the ledge just because you got knocked offstage. On top of her other tools, it just doesn't mesh well and gives her gimmicks more than style in that regard. I digress; anyway, I don't know yet if I'm in the right mindset or not, but this is how I feel at the moment, at least. I'm open to suggestions and discussion though.
My question to you all would be: what does Samus need, versus "what would be cool" if she had (which isnt always a good thing)? Consider her playstyle in this theoretical equation here. What kept her down in Melee? What truly keeps her down in PM, versus what intrinsic truths exist (there are 50 times more Fox and Marth players to discuss and come up with new strategies). Next, look at what she already has. Buffed recovery (for now), buffed usmash (plasma), extra + GOOD usmash (ice), fair kill move, better bombs, easier swd, huge zair. I could go on, but I actually don't know exactly how she differs from melee.
What I can say is that not every option needs to be super good. As a former Lucas main, I can tell you right now this is his main flaw. Everything combos into everything and everything kills or sets up for a kill. It's BORING. The thing I like about Samus so much is that I actually have to think according to Samus' style. I really feel like I'm playing as the character when I'm playing her in Project M, albeit with some discrepancies, but I don't think it's possible to give a character ALL the tools of their franchise without giving the character too much. These ideas about freezing the ground, swd having hitboxes or intangibility, is the kind of stuff that gets characters the nerf hammer, and ultimately dilutes their styles, I think.
From what I've gathered playing Samus over the past few months, the only nerfs/buffs she could really use are:
- nerfs to zair
- buffs to grab?
- nerfs to tether recovery (happening)
- MAYBE a faster fastfall, but I think this weakness is actually something that makes her unique. Just because 50% of the PM cast has no weakness, doesn't mean Samus ought to. I'd rather not see her be the next Lucas or Link.
- I've seen a couple posts about her ftilt being booty, but I don't see it personally. But, I didn't play Melee Samus, so I have no say on this.
As for ice beam and buffing dtilt and fsmash, I don't see why it's that necessary. Ice mode gives you a different style to play as. It's an option; you're not required to use Ice beam EVER; Samus by default starts with fire mode and you're not required to taunt. Ice beam gives you:
- HUGE upwards kill range which works well on other floaties/lightweights
- amazing pressure/stage control options with ice fair
- infinite-range missiles
I don't see why it wouldn't be fair for two of her moves to be worse in return. To me, I see ice dtilt and fsmash as mixup options; something an opponent won't see coming, and will disorient them. That in itself is a valuable option. You could set up perfectly and have them expecting to get a hitconfirm with, say, Fox nair approaching you from behind on the ground. What good options does Samus have that'll hit in time, right? Then ice fsmash hits and Samus has control again. Sometimes the best place for a move is reseting the neutral and being unique to other moves. You want icedtilt to kill? just dsmash. Fsmash could connect a little better, but as far as I know it doesn't put Samus in a bad position if you use it properly. The hitbox isn't required to work for you because you connect it, is what I'm getting at.
Again, I've yet to become an "expert" on Samus, but this is just the opinion/perspective of someone who's USED an overpowered character and knows generally what constitutes it. While I may think Samus is mostly fair, it doesn't necessarily mean I think she'll do well. It's firmly my opinion that other cast members need to be brought down, rather than Samus being brought up. Starting about Metaknight up on the tier list, I believe characters need nerfs, minor and major. This would include Lucas, Fox, Falco, Mewtwo, Diddy, Sonic, Mario, Pit, and maybe Link and Zelda. I base my "needs nerfs" list not so much on how a character places, but more on the tools they have vs the weaknesses against them. For example, Link and Mario may not be placing top, but they certainly have the tools to be gimmicked in ways that make the game more about centralizing the game around abusing the character's overall strengths than using those strengths to make solid metagame decisions, if that makes sense? With Zelda, a problem I have with her is the automatic edgeguards she posesses. It literally takes away the option of grabbing the ledge just because you got knocked offstage. On top of her other tools, it just doesn't mesh well and gives her gimmicks more than style in that regard. I digress; anyway, I don't know yet if I'm in the right mindset or not, but this is how I feel at the moment, at least. I'm open to suggestions and discussion though.
Last edited:
Chevy
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2014
- Messages
- 736
Pretty much hit the nail on the head, I don't want buffs. Samus is good enough where she's at and has all the tools she needs. I would gladly take a z-air and ice f-air nerf for better ice f-smash and d-tilt though. It's not so much that she needs it as that they currently have next to no use and you switch to ice for one move, which just makes ice mode boring. After playing Melee I can pretty much confirm that F-tilt is functionally identical. I think the Melee one looks slow and weird though, personally.
pooch182
Smash Journeyman
In regard to changes for Ice mode, the first thing I wish would be changed is where in the taunt animation the game registers the beam switch. As it stands right now, it's sort of clunky and impractical to taunt cancel beam-switch, because the animation of the ring popping out of the canon is basically the point where you can effectively cancel. That's pretty damn late, and you're better off just doing it after hitting your opponent off stage or just taking a stock. Registering a beam switch earlier in the animation allows for more fluid beam changes, which makes using both beams more feasible.
Ice F-smash is an absolute mess. They designed it to have 2 hits, but the 2nd hit rarely works. What I would love to see, is the first hit pull the opponent in, hopefully with them being unable to SDI it, and the 2nd hit popping them slightly up, which could lead to a SH nair or even an uptilt. Down-tilt seems to have been designed as an edge guard, which makes no sense when up-tilt is far safer, and more effective. I like the idea of a banana property, but I would also like to see no ownership properties on that spot, similar to how Snake can set off his own down smash.
Zair is good, definitely. It basically is the single tool that beats Marth in the spacing game. At the same time, if it's shielded, you can have a pretty bad time. I don't think Zair is broken, per se, because people just need to adapt to it and learn to shield it and continue approaching. If anyone would like to contest that idea, thinking it's absurd, I'll just point out how you have to play against Falco in Melee. WD OoS.
Her recovery will still be godlike, just like it was in Melee. Even more so when you consider that rising grapple is an effective counter-edge guard in this game.
In regard to the idea of buffing her grab. Her standing grab, as it's designed right now, is atrocious. The length of it does not justify the amount of end-lag should you miss your opponent. Seeing that PMBR can't necessarily change the length of her standing grab, they can definitely reduce the end lag. The start up is already bad enough. Her dash grab, however, is well designed and makes sense considering the design of Samus. You pretty much have to commit to a grab, and grabs can lead to some really fantastic follow ups. In a perfect world, her forward throw would be changed so that you grab the opponent, and plug their gut with your canon, and launch them forward with a missile, but that's staying in my dreams.
Her fire design is basically flawless, save for upsmash. Sure, it's received a well-deserved buff, but not being able to easily SDI out of it doesn't make much sense to me. I can carry a Falcon across the stage with UpSmash, and it even leads into a sweet spot bair at the end of it all. It's silly design in that aspect, and leads me to believe that the Dev Team messed with how easily it can be smash DI'd. Her fire mode would be perfect if that were changed.
Ice F-smash is an absolute mess. They designed it to have 2 hits, but the 2nd hit rarely works. What I would love to see, is the first hit pull the opponent in, hopefully with them being unable to SDI it, and the 2nd hit popping them slightly up, which could lead to a SH nair or even an uptilt. Down-tilt seems to have been designed as an edge guard, which makes no sense when up-tilt is far safer, and more effective. I like the idea of a banana property, but I would also like to see no ownership properties on that spot, similar to how Snake can set off his own down smash.
Zair is good, definitely. It basically is the single tool that beats Marth in the spacing game. At the same time, if it's shielded, you can have a pretty bad time. I don't think Zair is broken, per se, because people just need to adapt to it and learn to shield it and continue approaching. If anyone would like to contest that idea, thinking it's absurd, I'll just point out how you have to play against Falco in Melee. WD OoS.
Her recovery will still be godlike, just like it was in Melee. Even more so when you consider that rising grapple is an effective counter-edge guard in this game.
In regard to the idea of buffing her grab. Her standing grab, as it's designed right now, is atrocious. The length of it does not justify the amount of end-lag should you miss your opponent. Seeing that PMBR can't necessarily change the length of her standing grab, they can definitely reduce the end lag. The start up is already bad enough. Her dash grab, however, is well designed and makes sense considering the design of Samus. You pretty much have to commit to a grab, and grabs can lead to some really fantastic follow ups. In a perfect world, her forward throw would be changed so that you grab the opponent, and plug their gut with your canon, and launch them forward with a missile, but that's staying in my dreams.
Her fire design is basically flawless, save for upsmash. Sure, it's received a well-deserved buff, but not being able to easily SDI out of it doesn't make much sense to me. I can carry a Falcon across the stage with UpSmash, and it even leads into a sweet spot bair at the end of it all. It's silly design in that aspect, and leads me to believe that the Dev Team messed with how easily it can be smash DI'd. Her fire mode would be perfect if that were changed.
Chevy
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2014
- Messages
- 736
I like the taunt cancel window, is difficult to pull off, satisfying, and still displays that you switched instead of the opponent never knowing because you just skip the switch mechanic altogether. MonkUnit said something about maybe being able to do extender without homing so that makes me hope that they figured out how to extend tether grabs, in which case I'd love to have Melee standing grab back. Fire Up-smash is insanely good on fast fallers, but if you just DI away on the last hit you can avoid another Up-smash follow-up pretty easily. I used to chain them for days, then people learned to DI.
pooch182
Smash Journeyman
Even with DI, you're basically taking every hit of upsmash, which is a lot of percent. Even big characters like DeDeDe suffer to every hit of upsmash, and the move is clearly designed for fast fallers, not fat fallers.
Dude, they should actually made tether grabs... good... they have been a horrible addition to almost every game so far and its such a risk to throw them out, if you do, you should at least get SOME reward instead of little to no follow ups... even lukas has a kill throw, at least make it 2-3x longer and or faster or just give samus a kill off a throw ffs
I would be pretty bummed if they nerfed Samus' ice fair. I feel like her ice gameplay would be too similar to her fire mode if they did that. The amazing fair and usmash make the semi-useless ice fsmash and dtilt. (fsmash is pretty good if you hit the right spot). Maybe it's just how I play though. I treat that ice fair like it was forged from falcon's knee sometimes, hahaha. I thing they should add some stun to the ice mode. (It's ice so it should "freeze" them, right?) That way it would still be totally different than her fire mode.
Plus, I need something better than the fire fair when I **** up my nair and do a fair on accident.
Zair is a tough call. It's pretty slow, and if they dodge it then you can get punished for it, but at the same time it has no landing lag and has a pretty large range.
Definitely agree with you, Barbie that grabs need SOMETHING. Although, maybe it makes having the zair fair. I am sick of the dthrow -> fair or uthrow -> bair combos hahaha.
It's funny that you say the melee is slower, Chevy. Feels faster to me, but I just started playing melee again a couple days ago and I've only been playing project m for about 3 months so you'd know better than I. Honest;y, everything in melee seems a little sped up to me. It's been awhile since I've dusted off the ol' melee.
Her recovery is amazing enough where a shorter tether would def be a fair call. I really hope they don't mess up her bomb jumping skills. I feel like a faster FF would do this.
Samus definitely has the tools to adapt to just about any situation.
Trust in the Samus and the Samus will trust in you.
Plus, I need something better than the fire fair when I **** up my nair and do a fair on accident.
Zair is a tough call. It's pretty slow, and if they dodge it then you can get punished for it, but at the same time it has no landing lag and has a pretty large range.
Definitely agree with you, Barbie that grabs need SOMETHING. Although, maybe it makes having the zair fair. I am sick of the dthrow -> fair or uthrow -> bair combos hahaha.
It's funny that you say the melee is slower, Chevy. Feels faster to me, but I just started playing melee again a couple days ago and I've only been playing project m for about 3 months so you'd know better than I. Honest;y, everything in melee seems a little sped up to me. It's been awhile since I've dusted off the ol' melee.
Her recovery is amazing enough where a shorter tether would def be a fair call. I really hope they don't mess up her bomb jumping skills. I feel like a faster FF would do this.
Samus definitely has the tools to adapt to just about any situation.
Trust in the Samus and the Samus will trust in you.
Last edited:
Eisen
Smash Ace
Not so much a balance/viability thing, but who else thinks Samus' upthrow needs an animation reworking? That thing looks like trash, bad throw or not. It doesn't even look palletable as a mixup throw.
I would agree by the way that tether grabs are a bit crap. I think run speed + grab range of a character in x time needs to be compared to a neutral tether grab, and endlags compared. I'd be willing to bet Marth can run, dashgrab, and attack again faster than Samus can do a full standing grab. Not that I want tether grabs super good, but I feel like Samus' dashgrab is better than her normal grab, which is equally interesting and... dumb if true. Hooray for diversity, I guess?
I would agree by the way that tether grabs are a bit crap. I think run speed + grab range of a character in x time needs to be compared to a neutral tether grab, and endlags compared. I'd be willing to bet Marth can run, dashgrab, and attack again faster than Samus can do a full standing grab. Not that I want tether grabs super good, but I feel like Samus' dashgrab is better than her normal grab, which is equally interesting and... dumb if true. Hooray for diversity, I guess?
Last edited: