Change for samus in next release

[pizzacato]

Nooooo Super metroid is best game 5evar.
wave beam or riot.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Sure, and from a testing perspective, it's a valid thing to do. But I've played this character and watch people play her, rather obsessively, for eight years, and ice mode just isn't Samus for me.

But this way we get an evolving samus, as well as a stagnating moveset samus for those that want her to never change

 

[Chevy]

Nooooo Super metroid is best game 5evar.
wave beam or riot.

Wave beam is in Metroid Prime. #Getwrekt

 

[CBO0tz]

I want a smash taunt for Samus that plays a recording of the Scan Visor in action and makes her visor glow.

 

[pizzacato]

Wave beam is in Metroid Prime. #Getwrekt

Oh **** you're right. Where's my charged shot missile combo from Prime?

 

[Chevy]

Oh **** you're right. Where's my charged shot missile combo from Prime?

That's just super missiles, which we have. I propose that in the next update, to shoot a super missile, you must have a charge shot stored. But it does 73% and has the knockback of Warlock Punch.

 

[ph00tbag]

Metroid Prime is the best game, therefore it's canon. I would also vehemently disagree that ice is usually better. I use fire 90% of the time. Only switch to ice when the range is important, or I'm struggling to land a kill.

Gonna ignore the subjective opinion used as supporting evidence. The rest of your post is inconsistent with your previous statement that it's better in match-ups Plasma is bad in. Which is it? Should I use Ice only in those match-ups, or is it only useful for KOing?

But this way we get an evolving samus, as well as a stagnating moveset samus for those that want her to never change

I've been clamoring for morph ball crawl since Brawl modding became a thing. I've never been opposed to Brawl zair. I think more could be done to change Plasma usmash. Heck, I think Ice dtilt's late hitboxes would be pretty dope if put onto Plasma dtilt. I'm all for evolution. But in the case of a character like Samus, who didn't really need an overhaul to begin with, it should be done with respect to what the character was all about in the first place. You can't just rebrand a fundamental change to the way the character works as "evolution," and expect me to suddenly accept that it makes sense.

Oh **** you're right. Where's my charged shot missile combo from Prime?

In Super, switch to any single beam once you have power bombs, and with power bombs selected, charge your beam all the way. Et voila.

Prime was a love letter to Super. The only thing it really added was the lore, but that just brought Super's environmental storytelling closer to the surface. Everything in Prime was a callback to what made Super such a phenomenal game. That's why Super is better. Zero Mission is up there, too, since it does a lot of things Super does, but rewards technical play better and more often, IMO.

 

[pizzacato]

That's just super missiles, which we have. I propose that in the next update, to shoot a super missile, you must have a charge shot stored. But it does 73% and has the knockback of Warlock Punch.

Oooo I like it, have homing missiles, smash missiles, and super missiles. :D
Well I was thinking like plasma flamethrower ****.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Phoot, you can't call someone out on subjective material when your argument is based on 'I don't think it's how samus plays'.

There's no debate here.

 

[Chevy]

Gonna ignore the subjective opinion used as supporting evidence.

Obviously a joke.

The rest of your post is inconsistent with your previous statement that it's better in match-ups Plasma is bad in. Which is it? Should I use Ice only in those match-ups, or is it only useful for KOing?

Both, in match-ups where it's good I use it most of the time; in match-ups where it's decent, I switch to kill at high percents. My 90% figure is indicative of the characters I play against more than anything, but ice is definitely the inferior moveset overall.

I've been clamoring for morph ball crawl since Brawl modding became a thing. I've never been opposed to Brawl zair. I think more could be done to change Plasma usmash. Heck, I think Ice dtilt's late hitboxes would be pretty dope if put onto Plasma dtilt. I'm all for evolution. But in the case of a character like Samus, who didn't really need an overhaul to begin with, it should be done with respect to what the character was all about in the first place. You can't just rebrand a fundamental change to the way the character works as "evolution," and expect me to suddenly accept that it makes sense.

Your argument was that Ice Up-smash covers too many options, right? I don't see it, there's a time and place for it just like all of her other moves. Her f-smash and d-tilt definitely need tweaks, but other than that ice mode is fine. Maybe tone down f-air a bit, because it's hugely over-centralizing.

Prime was a love letter to Super. The only thing it really added was the lore, but that just brought Super's environmental storytelling closer to the surface. Everything in Prime was a callback to what made Super such a phenomenal game. That's why Super is better. Zero Mission is up there, too, since it does a lot of things Super does, but rewards technical play better and more often, IMO.

Super is better because it came first? Terrible.

 

[pizzacato]

So one legitimate tweak I would like to make, even though it would drastically put all our Melee Samus spacing to s h i t, I would like to increase the disjoint and sweet spot of the back-air. It's by no means TOO hard to hit, but I could stand to have higher hit ratio.

ty

 

[Chevy]

So one legitimate tweak I would like to make, even though it would drastically put all our Melee Samus spacing to s h i t, I would like to increase the disjoint and sweet spot of the back-air. It's by no means TOO hard to hit, but I could stand to have higher hit ratio.

ty

Idunno, I think it's pretty much perfect. If it gets any better, she might turn into DK and always wanna approach backwards.

 

[pizzacato]

I'm sure her approaches would remain the samus. See as how floaty Samus is, being in the air too is begging to be punished. So grounded approaches would still be the way to go. Back air approaches would give backtracking a whole new meaning to Metroid.

 

[Chevy]

Yeah, good point. Regardless, I wouldn't welcome it, more disjoint would just make it look jank.

 

[ph00tbag]

Phoot, you can't call someone out on subjective material when your argument is based on 'I don't think it's how samus plays'.

I'm opposed to subjective opinion as supporting evidence. My supporting evidence is actual observation about how Samus plays in Melee, made over the course of eight years of playing the game myself and analyzing the play of the best Samus mains. My conclusions are not simply subjective opinion because they're based on the qualities of Samus's playstyle that I've noted are consistent across high level players. It's not, 'I don't think it's how samus plays,' it's "I pretty darn sure this is not how Samus plays, based on thorough observation." And that's an important distinction.

For what it's worth, none of us really knows how PM Samus plays. Not even me; that's where the "pretty darn" comes from up there. It's entirely possible that Ice mode fits together really neatly, but no one's really broken into why Ice mode is a complete puzzle of interlocking pieces. But given the most successful playstyle I've seen from the character (ESAM's), contemporarily, it looks like a mode that says, "I really am too tired to think a bunch about my move selection and stage positioning." And that's a damn shame.

Obviously a joke.

I figured. Hence, I ignored it.

Your argument was that Ice Up-smash covers too many options, right? I don't see it, there's a time and place for it just like all of her other moves. Her f-smash and d-tilt definitely need tweaks, but other than that ice mode is fine. Maybe tone down f-air a bit, because it's hugely over-centralizing.

Well, if you look back, I actually argued that ice fair is over-centralizing (surprise!). KLit made the big deal about ice usmash initially. The way I see it, fair is stupid good, and usmash pretty much covers everything else. Combined, they promote a lazy playstyle that has nothing to do with the very precise and cognitively demanding play that Samus encouraged in Melee. It all ties together very nicely if you're willing to read my posts from start to finish.

Super is better because it came first? Terrible.

If I wanted to talk about why Super is better, I'd devote an entire post. My post that you're quoting was just to tell you the reason charge combos don't make Prime better.

 

[Chevy]

I'm opposed to subjective opinion as supporting evidence. My supporting evidence is actual observation about how Samus plays in Melee, made over the course of eight years of playing the game myself and analyzing the play of the best Samus mains. My conclusions are not simply subjective opinion because they're based on the qualities of Samus's playstyle that I've noted are consistent across high level players. It's not, 'I don't think it's how samus plays,' it's "I pretty darn sure this is not how Samus plays, based on thorough observation." And that's an important distinction.

For what it's worth, none of us really knows how PM Samus plays. Not even me; that's where the "pretty darn" comes from up there. It's entirely possible that Ice mode fits together really neatly, but no one's really broken into why Ice mode is a complete puzzle of interlocking pieces. But given the most successful playstyle I've seen from the character (ESAM's), contemporarily, it looks like a mode that says, "I really am too tired to think a bunch about my move selection and stage positioning." And that's a damn shame.

Well, if you look back, I actually argued that ice fair is over-centralizing (surprise!). KLit made the big deal about ice usmash initially. The way I see it, fair is stupid good, and usmash pretty much covers everything else. Combined, they promote a lazy playstyle that has nothing to do with the very precise and cognitively demanding play that Samus encouraged in Melee. It all ties together very nicely if you're willing to read my posts from start to finish.

Not that it's important, but you definitely complained much more about ice up-smash. Anyway, I pretty much agree with you, I'd just rather not get rid of ice. Like I said, it's a very fun addition that has enough merits to warrant it's existence. I feel that all of your problems with it can be solved by just re-balancing it, rather than removing it.

Also, I'm not going to argue which Metroid game is better, "better" is clearly subjective.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Judging how samus should play based on how she plays in melee is basing it on playing against characters that are generally not floaty, have average recovery and don't need a move like ice up smash to deal with.

But now you have many more characters to fight, and having a different option can in no way be a bad thing. Especially since I it doesn't affect the previous moves.

 

[ph00tbag]

Not that it's important, but you definitely complained much more about ice up-smash. Anyway, I pretty much agree with you, I'd just rather not get rid of ice. Like I said, it's a very fun addition that has enough merits to warrant it's existence. I feel that all of your problems with it can be solved by just re-balancing it, rather than removing it.

I didn't even complain that much about Ice usmash. Y'all were the dudes that got so hung up on the fact that I pointed out how dumb it is.

This thread hasn't gone into why I fundamentally dislike Ice Mode. It's not really related to the fact that the mode is currently imbalanced and ham-fisted. The fundamental reason I dislike it is that it's gimmicky and poorly integrated into the way the character plays in 1 on 1 matches. (It actually kinda makes sense in FFAs, where Samus is meant to run off on her own and shoot stuff at people, but that just makes it more baffling, since that's not the focus of PM's design.)

Judging how samus should play based on how she plays in melee is basing it on playing against characters that are generally not floaty, have average recovery and don't need a move like ice up smash to deal with.

But now you have many more characters to fight, and having a different option can in no way be a bad thing. Especially since I it doesn't affect the previous moves.

Do you just forget about all of my other posts for each post I make? I'm not against making necessary changes to the character in order for her to succeed against other characters in the cast. I've actually said stuff along these lines on several occasions. But Ice mode is a dumb way to get there.

 

[Chevy]

You have yet to explain why a balanced version of ice is gimmicky and poorly integrated. You want all of her tools to do very specific things, so giving her more moves that do very specific things seems like exactly the right direction.

 

[Narpas_sword]

I didn't even complain that much about Ice usmash. Y'all were the dudes that got so hung up on the fact that I pointed out how dumb it is.

This thread hasn't gone into why I fundamentally dislike Ice Mode. It's not really related to the fact that the mode is currently imbalanced and ham-fisted. The fundamental reason I dislike it is that it's gimmicky and poorly integrated into the way the character plays in 1 on 1 matches. (It actually kinda makes sense in FFAs, where Samus is meant to run off on her own and shoot stuff at people, but that just makes it more baffling, since that's not the focus of PM's design.)


Do you just forget about all of my other posts for each post I make? I'm not against making necessary changes to the character in order for her to succeed against other characters in the cast. I've actually said stuff along these lines on several occasions. But Ice mode is a dumb way to get there.

Not forgot, just didn't bother.

As I said, this is all subjective, there's no debate here

 

[ph00tbag]

You have yet to explain why a balanced version of ice is gimmicky and poorly integrated. You want all of her tools to do very specific things, so giving her more moves that do very specific things seems like exactly the right direction.

Well, it's a stance change, which is pretty gimmicky to begin with. But even a stance change, when properly implemented, can make for an interesting character. The key is to make the change low-impact, and make clear advantages and disadvantages to each stance, which can carry over in every match-up. That is to say, there needs to be a reason to switch back and forth between stances, no matter who you're playing against, and there has to be a low enough time cost on the change that one needn't surrender the advantage needed to change successfully just to finish changing.

Look at Gen, from Street Fighter. Gen can change stances while blocking or attacking, with the stance change animation not ending his block status. He can effective change his stance at any time. It's really just on Gen's player to keep track of what stance he's in at all times in order to play him effectively. And his opponent needs to be aware that Gen can hide a stance change in his blocking or attacking animation, so any of Gen's double options are always available. At the same time, each stance is better for one thing or another.

Samus's Ice Beam doesn't work like that. You have to have a lot of time (or a handy ledge at the perfect spacing) to initiate a beam change, and you usually wind up on the defensive regardless once you have changed beams. And usually, it's only worth it to make the change once if it's worth it at all, meaning the advantage of having four extra moves is lost. Unless you're in a situation where you absolutely need to change from one stance to the other, there's no reason to use it, so you almost might as well not have it.

Then there's that whole bit about keeping track of stances. That is a fundamental aspect of any stance change character. Keeping track of one's stance defines the playstyle for a stance change character, and that has never been a Samus thing. I could understand the argument for making this a Samus thing if Samus needed a complete and fundamental overhaul to defining her playstyle, but the fact of the matter is, she doesn't. She was already really interesting and cool without having four extra moves and a high cost way of accessing them.

And that, since you asked, is why I don't like Ice Beam on a fundamental level. But really, this thread is about why it's imbalanced in its current form.

 

[Litt]

OMG I DONT COME ON FOR A FEW DAYS AND THIS IS THE **** I COME BACK TO... Cmon Phoot, just let it die already, literally everyone on here is against you and you are fighting a losing battle. The reason you are wrong here is because this game is NO LONGER MELEE... there are 41 character now, not 26, and having moves to wall out and overpower opponents is not a bad thing, it is just what was given to our character in the current release, and because of those options, they are better utilized in some match ups and at certain percentages than the fire move set. If you are playing this game on the competitive level, the name of the game is winning, and if you have an easier and more consistent time doing so with the ice moveset, then you are playing the game correctly. There is a reason top melee players were top melee players, and it wasnt because of their years of analysis, it was because they understand the game to a deeper extent than you do, which is why they are pro players and you are not there yet. Your opinion is welcome here, apparently everyones is because they still tolerate me... :/ but thats besides the point, just drop it and move on phoot.

 

[Narpas_sword]

its not that we think hes wrong, its just that it's entirely subjective and theres no point trying to convince a guy who hates peanuts, that peanuts are nice...

 

[Chevy]

Well, it's a stance change, which is pretty gimmicky to begin with. But even a stance change, when properly implemented, can make for an interesting character. The key is to make the change low-impact, and make clear advantages and disadvantages to each stance, which can carry over in every match-up. That is to say, there needs to be a reason to switch back and forth between stances, no matter who you're playing against, and there has to be a low enough time cost on the change that one needn't surrender the advantage needed to change successfully just to finish changing.

Look at Gen, from Street Fighter. Gen can change stances while blocking or attacking, with the stance change animation not ending his block status. He can effective change his stance at any time. It's really just on Gen's player to keep track of what stance he's in at all times in order to play him effectively. And his opponent needs to be aware that Gen can hide a stance change in his blocking or attacking animation, so any of Gen's double options are always available. At the same time, each stance is better for one thing or another.

Samus's Ice Beam doesn't work like that. You have to have a lot of time (or a handy ledge at the perfect spacing) to initiate a beam change, and you usually wind up on the defensive regardless once you have changed beams. And usually, it's only worth it to make the change once if it's worth it at all, meaning the advantage of having four extra moves is lost. Unless you're in a situation where you absolutely need to change from one stance to the other, there's no reason to use it, so you almost might as well not have it.

Then there's that whole bit about keeping track of stances. That is a fundamental aspect of any stance change character. Keeping track of one's stance defines the playstyle for a stance change character, and that has never been a Samus thing. I could understand the argument for making this a Samus thing if Samus needed a complete and fundamental overhaul to defining her playstyle, but the fact of the matter is, she doesn't. She was already really interesting and cool without having four extra moves and a high cost way of accessing them.

And that, since you asked, is why I don't like Ice Beam on a fundamental level. But really, this thread is about why it's imbalanced in its current form.

Some match-ups I will switch between the two freely. And a taunt cancelled change is pretty unpunishable, I just do it during a missile barrage and follow-up pressure with f-air and it works fine. Sometimes people will miss the switch if you cancel it fast enough.

 

[Subtle One]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38RgluroXg8

I think ice mode is cool, unique, and good. I'm happy to see this. Yea.

 

[Chevy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38RgluroXg8

I think ice mode is cool, unique, and good. I'm happy to see this. Yea.

This is more an example of what's wrong with ice mode, funny enough. Every clip is just F-air.

 

[Narpas_sword]

This is more an example of what's wrong with ice mode, funny enough. Every clip is just F-air.

... What were you watching? The Texas sharpshooter fallacy?

So much in that wasn't ice fair..

 

[Subtle One]

This is more an example of what's wrong with ice mode, funny enough. Every clip is just F-air.

You're blinded or just have a poor attention span. The vid posted utilized the different angle on d-tilt, the difference in kb between missiles, fair and up smash only available in ice mode beautifully as well as base Samus tech. It's a clear example of how the stance change adds to Samus game and opens up new approaches to situations she already had tools to deal with as well as ones she did not.

 

[Chevy]

You're blinded or just have a poor attention span. The vid posted utilized the different angle on d-tilt, the difference in kb between missiles, fair and up smash only available in ice mode beautifully as well as base Samus tech. It's a clear example of how the stance change adds to Samus game and opens up new approaches to situations she already had tools to deal with as well as ones she did not.

Honestly, I didn't re-watch it. I watched it when it was first posted and that's what stuck I guess. I apologize for not analyzing it more closely.

 

[Litt]

You're blinded or just have a poor attention span. The vid posted utilized the different angle on d-tilt, the difference in kb between missiles, fair and up smash only available in ice mode beautifully as well as base Samus tech. It's a clear example of how the stance change adds to Samus game and opens up new approaches to situations she already had tools to deal with as well as ones she did not.

Lol who the **** is this guy? Haven't seen him before but huge thumbs up, Subtle one I like you already :D

 

[ph00tbag]

Honestly, I didn't re-watch it. I watched it when it was first posted and that's what stuck I guess. I apologize for not analyzing it more closely.

Don't worry. I just watched it, and you're pretty much right.

 

[Narpas_sword]

That's called confirmation bias phoot.

 

[Litt]

That's called confirmation bias phoot.

Thats called... I think we just found the medium between being overly nice and a complete ****, Suble one for the voice of reason for the samus boards #Finally an intelligent person who can speak to scrubs without being a complete **** or holding their hand throughout the way

 

[ph00tbag]

That's called confirmation bias phoot.

No, it's called hyperbole as a rhetorical device. Other aspects of ice mode made cute cameos, but fair was notably prominent in the video. I just want to make sure that's not forgotten because Subtle One pointed out the handful of clips where other ice moves popped in to say hi.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Oh either works.

Hyperbole meant you were making **** up, confirmation bias gave you the benefit of the doubt that you did it accidentally and weren't being a muppet.

 

[Litt]

ph00t, you are becoming the new KLit, dont be so IGGG nant ;p

 

[ph00tbag]

If Subtle One is allowed to pretend that fair wasn't a dominant feature of that video, I'm allowed to pretend it was the only feature. That's the reason I employed hyperbole. But just because I exaggerated for effect doesn't mean that's how I would respond in a balanced post. Do you want me to be balanced about this? Okay.

Fair and Nair tied as the moves that connected most often in that video, at 18 apiece. The next most-successful move was dash attack, landing nine times, half as much as fair and nair. Of ice mode moves, Ice Missile landed five times over three clips. Dtilt landed three times, and only two of those times did it actually put the opponent in a bad position. Fair outstripped all other ice mode moves combined in that video. As a numbers game, fair dominated the content of the video.

For what it's worth, some interesting things were shown from ice missiles. The dtilt clips were less impressive than I could have hoped, given that they were cited as uses of the move, because they relied on not-solid decisions from the opponent for their follow-up to be guaranteed (double jumping into the stage in the first case, and teching in place when Samus could not have reached a tech away in time in the second). They were nice positional advantages. That's about the most I can say for them.

In the long run, it's worth pointing out that this all had to be edited from presumably hours of footage, and only the instances of dtilt and missiles that showed up were really worthy of inclusion, while there was clearly plenty of material featuring fair, since it made up so much of the video.

 

[Subtle One]

If Subtle One is allowed to pretend that fair wasn't a dominant feature of that video, I'm allowed to pretend it was the only feature. That's the reason I employed hyperbole. But just because I exaggerated for effect doesn't mean that's how I would respond in a balanced post. Do you want me to be balanced about this? Okay.

Fair and Nair tied as the moves that connected most often in that video, at 18 apiece. The next most-successful move was dash attack, landing nine times, half as much as fair and nair. Of ice mode moves, Ice Missile landed five times over three clips. Dtilt landed three times, and only two of those times did it actually put the opponent in a bad position. Fair outstripped all other ice mode moves combined in that video. As a numbers game, fair dominated the content of the video.

For what it's worth, some interesting things were shown from ice missiles. The dtilt clips were less impressive than I could have hoped, given that they were cited as uses of the move, because they relied on not-solid decisions from the opponent for their follow-up to be guaranteed (double jumping into the stage in the first case, and teching in place when Samus could not have reached a tech away in time in the second). They were nice positional advantages. That's about the most I can say for them.

In the long run, it's worth pointing out that this all had to be edited from presumably hours of footage, and only the instances of dtilt and missiles that showed up were really worthy of inclusion, while there was clearly plenty of material featuring fair, since it made up so much of the video.

Don't talk about me like that, thanks. I never said fair didn't happen but it was not the only thing showcased as you tried to mislead everyone to believe through your use of "hyperbole". It's not a critique video its "Ice mode has uses" proof. The mode adds to Samus' gameplay and there's really no need to argue if its inclusion has real merit. Your opinion that it shouldn't be part of her game is a personal bias not objective fact and its a bit of a waste of potential to write the stance change off the way you've been trying to from what I've read in your posts.

 

[Narpas_sword]

If Subtle One is allowed to pretend that fair wasn't a dominant feature of that video, I'm allowed to pretend it was the only feature. That's the reason I employed hyperbole. But just because I exaggerated for effect doesn't mean that's how I would respond in a balanced post. Do you want me to be balanced about this? Okay.

Fair and Nair tied as the moves that connected most often in that video, at 18 apiece. The next most-successful move was dash attack, landing nine times, half as much as fair and nair. Of ice mode moves, Ice Missile landed five times over three clips. Dtilt landed three times, and only two of those times did it actually put the opponent in a bad position. Fair outstripped all other ice mode moves combined in that video. As a numbers game, fair dominated the content of the video.

For what it's worth, some interesting things were shown from ice missiles. The dtilt clips were less impressive than I could have hoped, given that they were cited as uses of the move, because they relied on not-solid decisions from the opponent for their follow-up to be guaranteed (double jumping into the stage in the first case, and teching in place when Samus could not have reached a tech away in time in the second). They were nice positional advantages. That's about the most I can say for them.

In the long run, it's worth pointing out that this all had to be edited from presumably hours of footage, and only the instances of dtilt and missiles that showed up were really worthy of inclusion, while there was clearly plenty of material featuring fair, since it made up so much of the video.

Oh, so what you're saying is that ice up smash in fact doesn't cover all options and it's not the focus of ice mode?

 

[ph00tbag]

Oh, so what you're saying is that ice up smash in fact doesn't cover all options and it's not the focus of ice mode?

You won't shut up about usmash. Remember who actually brought it up in the first place? Not me. The guy who actually brought it up is still buzzing around this thread like a gnat. Maybe you should get on his case about it.

Don't talk about me like that, thanks. I never said fair didn't happen but it was not the only thing showcased as you tried to mislead everyone to believe through your use of "hyperbole". It's not a critique video its "Ice mode has uses" proof. The mode adds to Samus' gameplay and there's really no need to argue if its inclusion has real merit. Your opinion that it shouldn't be part of her game is a personal bias not objective fact and its a bit of a waste of potential to write the stance change off the way you've been trying to from what I've read in your posts.

Don't talk about me like that. I've never said Ice Mode is useless. I've said, in fact, that it's too useful, and centralized around fair. That's, in fact, my first post.

I've said on multiple occasions that anything that points to the potential of Ice Mode as support for its inclusion is bull****, because it has no logical end. It could literally be used to support the inclusion of any mechanic on any character. Justified opinion about what the character is supposed to be all about is absolutely necessary to provide direction on what to include, because without it you just get Brawl-. No one has actually been able to show me that my views, on what Samus's game plan is, are unjustified. Once I lay them out, and the reasoning behind them, everyone says, "well that's just your opinion."

No one has actually been able to demonstrate either that ice mode complements my interpretation of Samus's playstyle, or that their opinion is upheld by anything but sheer novelty. And that's not to say novelty is not something to be included, rather it should be focused in areas where there was nothing to begin with. Brawl characters, Melee characters that had anemic or no gameplans, Clone Engine Characters... these are great places to try out new things. But Samus had a pretty robust kit in Melee. She is not a place for novelty.