Chain Grab - Your perspective/opinion

[ThaRoy]

You seem to be a competitive player...interesting.

What is it Brawl lacks that Melee had?

Combo's.

A combo is defined as what?

An initiation of moves that is inescapable to get out of.

Interesting.

What are some of the most competitive fighting games?

Street Fighter, Dead or Alive, and other franchises.

Is it me or...are their actual practice modes which TEACH you muscle memory to familiarize others with the functions to start the combo's?

I believe it's not just me.

Combo's are missing from Brawl, correct?

Correct.

Now...a chain grab is an inescapable grab...right?

Right.

But wait...you can only grab them and continue if there's room on the stage left.

Well, in most situations.

So...does that actually limit the combo's...?

I believe so...thus spacing...another aspect plays a big role.

That makes it strategical...correct...?

So now...Melee is competitive...no?

It is.

Are their combo's in Melee...inescapable?

Yes.

Are their in Brawl?

No.

Do chaingrabs prove to be escapable...?

Yes...it's called the end of the stage and others.

Hmm...interesting...

What is the purpose of a fighting game...?

To fight...

In a fight...do you get hit to win?

No...you hit others...and not get hit...

...so...is an attack that hits you...part of a fight?

Yes...

Is arguing against some...against the very principle...?

Mhmm, yes...

Hehehe...

...we rest our case...

 

[storm92]

Chain Grabbing is alright with me, its a tactic and technique which requires practice (although a negligible amount compared to Melee SHFFL and sort), and if the character which is being used and player using it can perform it successfuly, then they should be able to.
My only complaint is how it ruins some walk-off stages which otherwise would be Counterpicks.

 

[Amide]

To start off, IC chaingrabs are the only difficult ones, and I agree they should be banned. Still, the IC chaingrabs don't require skill, they require practice. It doesn't matter if not many people can do it, it's the people that can that make it important.

 

[Repulse X]

Anyone claiming that they hate chaingrabs because they think they are cheap/skillless:

I hope i play you in a match

And if i can, i will chain grab the **** out of you =X

 

[WITH]

The way I see chaingrabbing or infinites is not like "oh, you can just avoid it" or anything. I personally see these as baggage when you pick a character. Every character has weaknesses. Every character has something that makes them bad in a certain area. Lying to yourself, pretending that they aren't there, ignoring their presence, or hoping your enemy doesn't take advantage of them are all things that will hold you back from truly becoming good. If you want to improve in this game, find the weaknesses of your character, and learn how to compensate for them. By playing Snake, I run the risk of getting cypher grabbed or easily knocked out of my up-B if I'm too close to the stage. I know thats a major weakness of his. So what do I do to compensate? Among other things, I've learned how to do the C4 jump easier, and I've started to recover from much higher above the stage so my opponent hopefully can't catch me.

If I pick DK to main, I am choosing to main him despite his weaknesses. I have full knowledge that if my opponent picks D3, then I will not win the match. There is little "don't get grabbed" involved here, since that is unreasonable against an equally skilled D3. Instead, every time I pick him first in a match, I run the risk of my opponent picking D3. If he picks D3, then I'm likely screwed, but I accept that and move on. If I actually did main DK, then I would be sure to have a secondary that could take care of D3. Or I could keep DK as a counterpick character if I lose; that way I know for sure if my opponent is D3 or not since I pick after him. And if I win my first match with DK, I'll likely switch him out anyways just in case my opponent will counterpick D3. My personal method of compensating for that particular weakness of DK's is to second another character. And you know what? Thats the same way you make up for other one-sided match ups. Thats the beauty of the character counterpick system, and yet another way to make people who have these infinites easily done on them playable in tournaments.

In short, take your weaknesses in stride and learn how to compensate for them. Don't dwell on them or you'll eventually reach a wall that you can't surpass.

But first, you have to stop seeing things as "unfair" or "cheap." Start seeing things just as part of the game. Instead of complaining, you should learn how to counter them. I've seen so many people dragging their feet saying this or that is unfair, broken, etc. Those people end up liking the game less and less, they end up doing more poorly at tournaments with time, and they often just give up on the game (this applies to most games other than Smash, too). The people who don't complain? They're the ones who discover how to counter these things. They are the ones who take bottom tiers to the top all on their own. They win at tournaments, love the game, and transform the metagame by themselves. Have you seen Japanese players play recently? They are good. I'd say they're better than us right now. Why? Because they're taking this game in strides. We hare having one hell of a time trying to advance the metagame because of all the negativity surrounding us. Negativity brought up by those who are just trying to justify the fact that they don't enjoy Brawl (which is fine, because its a different game from Melee). And this negativity has spilled over onto the players who actually do enjoy Brawl. In fact, many people who are passionate about Brawl seem more concerned with trying to break the game to find ATs to appease the negative users than they are learning how to play it at its fullest potential as it is now. Not only that, but players nowadays are more concerned with what the tiers are, rather than trying to make the tiers what they are.

There is only one thing thats holding back the community, and this game, from evolving faster: Ourselves.

Theres a huge difference between having a rough time with rob's projectiles and getting edgeguarded which you can recover from with C4s or just another up+b if u werent grabbed and the "punishment" for maining DK. If standing infinites are allowed eventually any competitive player will learn them and any time anyone chooses DK, etc they will be counterpicked DDD and auto lose (the same for ness/lucas).

Yes, you can try to avoid being grabbed, but DDD has huge range, projectiles, and a huge grab range. You basically have to be MUCH MUCH better than him to avoid ever being grabbed when you have to be the one approaching in this highly defensively based game.

 

[isomorphism]

I don't think that chaingrabs are bad per se, but I do think standing infinites can really screw up a match. For example, SamuraiPanda suggested that someone who mains DK simply second another character, which is a great solution, but his proposed tactics include things like starting off with your second just in case the opponent is using D3. Under that strategy you will never get more than two rounds in with DK. And if they always counterpick your DK with a D3, you get only one round in before they infinite you to death, so under his proposed plan a DK "main" would end up using DK approximately 1/3rd of the time, and his secondary 2/3rds of the time. To me, that seems problematic, but this is just a personal opinion obviously.

 

[Cerrus]

Everything that I could say that has a meaning has already been said, but I just feel obliged to say something. As stated before me: Get over it. Lots of characters have and have had moves that give them an advantage over almost everyone in certain situations (that being the key). So D3 can chain grab you and hit you off the stage, okay well it is your resonsibility to do something about it.

And why bring the question of whether it takes "skill" or not into this discussion? Skill is completely relative. The IC chain grab might be super easy for some, thus making it look like a skill-less move. However, one who cannot perform it for whatever reason but tries makes the move look as though it is difficult to pull off. Fox's shine seems quite a bit like this. After just a little bit of practice anyone can learn how to get someone off the edge at the beginning of a match and blind shine them in midair for the kill. You say it takes no "skill" Its just a matter of practicing a little bit. Chain grabs for certain people are in essence easy to do. (imo) However to use them effectively does take practice.

With chain grabbing you just need to accept it and move on. Play so you dont get yourself caught by it. If your opponent manages to mind the right time/place to chain grab you into oblivion so be it.

 

[SnatchForFree]

To start off, IC chaingrabs are the only difficult ones, and I agree they should be banned. Still, the IC chaingrabs don't require skill, they require practice. It doesn't matter if not many people can do it, it's the people that can that make it important.

skill
–noun
1. the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well:

Hmm, the ability to chaingrab well through the use of practice and knowledge sure does sound like skill to me...

 

[Professional Idiot]

I play Lucas, so I'm obviously going to oppose chain grabbing, but people should really consider what tournaments are for: demonstrating skill. Chain grabbing does take skill, but it is an unintended gameplay mechanic flaw. What differentiates it from the so-called "advanced techniques" is that it completely turns the game on its head; matches will just become a who can grab the other first competition. That is not what Brawl is about. That's not to say that as soon as you start chain grabbing your opponent, you win, but it removes any options for escape, eliminating one of Brawl's most important gameplay aspects: defense.

I don't think I'm being too presumptuous when I say that skill in Brawl is the ability to react effectively in any given situation in order to turn the fight around. In chain grabbing, this is not the case: you get to watch your character sustain damage until your opponent is done.

Of course, some of you are still going to say "If you put enough effort into chain grabbing, then you deserve the win." This is complete bull. It clearly takes more skill to win fairly, knowing your opponent has various ways of counterattacking and turning the match around at any given time, than to just chain grab, knowing that they can't do anything.

EDIT: By "chain grab", I mean the infinite ones.

 

[SnatchForFree]

Who the **** are you to say what is fair and what isn't? How the **** do you know what was intended. Chaingrabs existed in melee, and I sure as hell think the designers would test something so obvious as chaingrabs if they didn't want them in the game.

 

[ph00tbag]

I agree completely as far as D3's, Falco's and Pikachu's CGs go. They require no skill, and artificially inflate that character's standings. Then again, someone who relies entirely on them will not win very often, so a lack of skill is not generally a problem. What this basically means is that these characters have better matchups than other characters, and to remove that is to blindly deny that there are character imbalances no matter what you do.

 

[EazyP]

For me it comes down to a few things, but the biggest one that stands out is if I have an advantage over my opponent and I don't use it, I'm pretty much a fool. Not in friendlies but if I'm going to a tournament I'm going to try and win like any sane person. If this can help me then I don't know why I wouldn't use it

People getting chain grabbed have many options still, change your play style, change your character, play smart. With Dedede, sure I can chaingrab Snake but I still lose to him, sure I can't chaingrab Pikachu but I still beat him

Most people who complain about it just can't get around it. People who complain about something they can't get around in a competitive game usually just aren't using their head

 

[Psychoace]

Looks like most people still stand by chaingrabbing and in the end that's all that really matters as far as keeping it.

 

[Drack]

Think of the CG as a single move that does the damage of the whole combo.

Is an easily landed 35% move terribly overpowering?

Not really. Look out for it and base your playstyle around the fact that it exists. Play in such a way that you won't get grabbed as often. It doesn't break the game.

 

[Amide]

skill
–noun
1. the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well:

Hmm, the ability to chaingrab well through the use of practice and knowledge sure does sound like skill to me...

Well, technically yes. An easier way to think about it is that pressing 'A' really fast requires practice, like IC chaingarbs. But if you think about it, button mashing isn't really skill, is it?

 

[Kitamerby]

Well, technically yes. An easier way to think about it is that pressing 'A' really fast requires practice, like IC chaingarbs. But if you think about it, button mashing isn't really skill, is it?

Your logic would make sense if it... made... sense?

Button mashing is a skill, and even something as simple as Button mashing may take practice.

For example, using the IC's Squall hammer to recover takes an insane amount of button mashing that not anyone could do when they first pick them up. Same thing with the Luigi Cyclone.

 

[SnatchForFree]

Of course button mashing is a skill. Regardless of how easy it is, it's still a skill.

 

[isomorphism]

I think some people don't realize the distinction between standing infinites and chaingrabs. Chaingrabs often only work up to a certain percentage, aren't guaranteed kills except on walkoff stages, involve movement, and can't do an arbitrary amount of damage. These make matches much more difficult, but are not really banworthy. Standing infinites are a different story. For the characters they apply to they do not end until the grabber wants them to, no matter what the stage, they are inescapable, again no matter what the stage, they can do an arbitrary amount of damage, and most of them are obscenely easy to pull off (much easier than IC alternate grabs, whether or not you want to argue about how easy they are for certain people is up to you) and one of the people who can do it is Dedede, who is way too good at grabbing and has too much range for "don't get grabbed" to be viable. This is not the same as a 35% combo, this is basically a technique that reduces the Marth vs. Ness/Lucas and Dedede vs. Samus, Luigi, Mario, DK and Bowser matches to repeated grabs followed by a stock loss. They are virtually guaranteed wins for Dedede / Marth. You can argue that that's totally fair, which is fine, but you should also realize that by their very nature this is a very different situation from normal chaingrabs.

 

[Koga]

What a lot of people don't want to accept is that a game doesn't need perfect character balance. So what it makes DK semi unplayable? so what it makes Ness and lucas unplayable?


Not every character is going to be tourney viable no matter what we do so why go out of our way to ban tactics just to help a handful of characters? all that will do is hurt some of the characters that benifit from Chain grabs.

 

[IrArby]

Infinites were banned in Melee for the same reasons that they probably will get banned in Brawl. Infinite chain grabs should be banned if their inescapable or very near to it. Obviously that doesn't mean that you can't start the infinite, there have to be short infinites (a contradiction in term but you know what I mean) simply because chaingrabs are essentially combos just using grabs.

For this reason, you can't ban CGing since it really is a legitimate combo but any combo infinite is unfair, and does not present equal or near equal oppurtunities for both players to win the match/set whatever.
Elements that give anyone char blatant unfair advantages (even stage bans) should be banned.

In sum I would argue that infinites, however difficult should be banned as they don't allow for near equal competitive play for both players. CGs that have acceptable limits concerning how long and how damaging they are should always be allowed. They add depth and strategy which something Brawl is lacking.

Also I agree with Koga that you need chaingrabs otherwise the Brawl tier list will be an even bigger mess than what it already is. Tires do exits and its a good thing.

 

[old king coal]

i hate BoE

 

[Pabs]

the fact that many characters without chaingrabs are doing better than ones with, just goes to show that it is not a broken technique.

just means those characters are even more broken than chain grabs

 

[Mystic101]

tru hes just *****in about it its like sumone saying G & W cant use his turtle because its "to cheap", practically all the best chars are considered "cheap" like sum one saying your not allowed to spam items

 

[Inferno_blaze]

Honeslt,y I'm fine with Chaing grabs that don't take any skill like falco's and the like or any that take you off the edge of the stage (unless it's a walk-off). I just don't see why anyone would want to have or allow infinite grabs that are literally impossible to get out of in their game... just seems rather silly to me.

 

[yoshi_fan]

It's funnny how only dedede players defend the chaingrab lol

 

[Vlade]

Chain grabbing is just an advantage for some characters, players don't pick characters just because of their CG. Watch sethlon play as falco, for example. He's definitely not using chain grab 24/7 in his fights and there's some decent skill other than grabbing over and over again (if that's how you want to put it).

 

[SnatchForFree]

It's funnny how only dedede players defend the chaingrab lol

I play Ice climbers. And it's funny how the entire back room agrees with not banning chain grabs. And I'm pretty sure not all of them play Dedede.

 

[S_B]

The solution to this is simple: someone needs to host a SSBB tournament with a $10,000 prize and set a 5 grab limit.

The ruleset would trickle out from there and would rapidly become adopted all over.

Chaingrabs are fine: nothing wrong with them, but as folks have mentioned, INFINITES turn the game completely on its head.

Had Sakurai actually beta tested the game properly, they'd have figured out that Marth can mash Z and kill a Ness player with ease. He was too busy making SSE suck to beta test properly, as is evidenced by the huge pile of glitches and bugs which plague the game (like Bowser winning a Bowsercide match if he's 1st player but going to SD if he's 2nd or higher. How the HELL did that make it through beta?!).

Why should infinites be banned? Because SSBB is not balanced around a single failure equating death, and this means that characters vulnerable to infinites drop to bottom tier artificially. Marth in melee didn't rise to top tier immediately. It took time for someone (Ken) to unlock his true potential.

With characters like Ness, Samus, Mario, Luigi, etc. being vulnerable to infinites, no one will bother maining them for tournaments, despite the fact that they may have serious tournament potential, because they know they'll be counterpicked.

It's a vicious cycle: certain characters aren't played because of fear of infinites, so no one plays these characters at tournaments, so no one at tournaments considers restricting infinites because no one plays these characters.

A 5 grab limit would ensure that everyone wins: chaingrabs are still highly effective for racking up damage but they're not a free kill on characters vulnerable to infinite grabs.

 

[DarkStraw]

Im no iceclimbers expert but from what i understand, you can buy brawl play it for a couple of months, NEVER play a human opponent, go to your first tourney and mop the floor. The iceclimbers infinite may take alot of practice, but it dosent seem like it takes much real life in game skill. I dont nessarily think the grabs should be banned, but thats why i havent decided to play iceclimbers, Having one move be so central to your gameplay not only seems boring, but it just seems like your a loser. Congratulations you spent 30 hours learning one move really well. I know this might sound crazzzzyy but i dont think people just go to tourneys JUST to win money, considering usually only 2-3 people will actually win anything. People also go to tourneys to have fun, believe it or not. Chaingrabbing dosent really bother me that much, i can usually play decent against the IC's with GW. But what does annoy me is when Chaingrabbbers complain about camping, wow if i ever hear a chaingrabber complaining about camping again im gonna flip out.

I think what everyone wants is for SBM or someone to declare chaingrabs banned from all tournaments.
Obviously that will never happen, whoever decides to host a tournament will decide. Everyone needs to quit trying to make their decisions for them.

 

[SnatchForFree]

Im no iceclimbers expert but from what i understand, you can buy brawl play it for a couple of months, NEVER play a human opponent, go to your first tourney and mop the floor. The iceclimbers infinite may take alot of practice, but it dosent seem like it takes much real life in game skill. I dont nessarily think the grabs should be banned, but thats why i havent decided to play iceclimbers, Having one move be so central to your gameplay not only seems boring, but it just seems like your a loser. Congratulations you spent 30 hours learning one move really well. I know this might sound crazzzzyy but i dont think people just go to tourneys JUST to win money, considering usually only 2-3 people will actually win anything. People also go to tourneys to have fun, believe it or not. Chaingrabbing dosent really bother me that much, i can usually play decent against the IC's with GW. But what does annoy me is when Chaingrabbbers complain about camping, wow if i ever hear a chaingrabber complaining about camping again im gonna flip out.

I think what everyone wants is for SBM or someone to declare chaingrabs banned from all tournaments.
Obviously that will never happen, whoever decides to host a tournament will decide. Everyone needs to quit trying to make their decisions for them.

How many Ice Climbers have won major tournaments? None. It's very obvious about how ignorant you are to Ice Climbers. If you have even watched a semi-decent climber you would notice that their game does not revolve solely on one move. Have you ever even tried them out? Holy ****, ****ing moronic ignorant people piss me off.

 

[Jack Kieser]

I don't think that Chain Grabs in and of themselves are necessarily bad, but the slippery-slope potential they bring to the table is. I hosted a tournament last month that had the IC as the winner. The Winner's Bracket Finals was IC v. Wolf. Rapetastic. The Loser's finals? Wolf v. Dedede. MORE ****. That means the Grand Finals was IC v. Dedede. I've never seen such a boring matchup in my life.

The problem, I think, is that a lot of CG's are inescapable. I cried on the inside when I learned that people were banning Corneria because of CG infinites.

 

[manhunter098]

Im fine with chain grabs in general, but I can say I dont like the idea of infinites being allowed. A chain grab is a simple punishment for your opponents failure to space propery. I dont see it as something that takes skill, no more than doing any other attack really, perhaps a bit of timing, but its not that hard.

 

[S_B]

Im fine with chain grabs in general, but I can say I dont like the idea of infinites being allowed. A chain grab is a simple punishment for your opponents failure to space propery. I dont see it as something that takes skill, no more than doing any other attack really, perhaps a bit of timing, but its not that hard.

The timing is actually very easy for D3: I was able to get the timing down in under 20 minutes and I was infiniting Lv9 CPU Bowser's and DKs without any issue.

If infinites were IMMENSELY hard to pull off, it'd be one thing, but the current batch of infinites is so easy to do that they're about as hard as SHFAIRing.

Honestly, I still screw up Bowser's "crocodile" move (hang from the ledge, push back, jump, push forward and toward+B an opponent standing on the ledge for a Bowsercide) more than I screwed up D3's infinte and Bowser is my main.

 

[MidnightAsaph]

It doesn't matter. At the end of a match where the chain grabber wins, all you have to say is, "Why'd you cheat?"

Chain grabbing does not take skill. Players should not have to be scared have to death of characters because they know what might happen.

Really, chain grabbers: they have no skill.

The only reason I would chain grab is for a reason such as I've already beaten them down to the point I still have all my lives but too much damage. If I want to keep my lives (just to say I never died), I'd chain grab. It's clear who would win, so the argument of "you just don't have skill is out of the window". Since I've already proved my skill is superior to my opponent, I think chain grabbing is simply a last "I am superior". Of course, it sounds mean, but compare it to cheating, conniving, skill-less smashers.

Chain grabbing is not okay unless you won the match regardless and just want to be an ***.

 

[Lawlb0t]

I don't even play IC, but play against good IC and I don't see what people are whining about. If anything I see them as MK and Snake killers, which is good, because its lame that all you see are MK and snakes.

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

I seriously doubt chain grabs will be banned. I think that was made clear in many previous threads on the matter, and people were actually outraged when Texas banned some IC grab techniques (I can't remember if they were infinites that were banned or not).

So now that we know that we have to continue dealing with DDD and IC's, what do we do? Improve our skill, of course.

 

[Pure-???]

so far if you look at the stats you will find that the majority of tournament winners are using snake and metaknight, who both lack chain grabs.

THat was kind of his point. He did say "it's irrelevent to competition"

 

[manhunter098]

That Texas tournament you are referring to only LIMITED the Ice Climbers infinites to I believe 3 grabs.

 

[EazyP]

Quick example

Sheik can ftilt on heavy characters for a long long time, doing a big amount of damage. A Sheik player did this at a local tournament of mine and ended up winning

Does this mean we ban Sheik's ftilt?

No, it's obviously the opponent's fault if they fall into it and they have to deal with it, and obviously the Sheik player didn't beat Silent Specter and others by just using Ftilt, he also used all of Sheik's strengths to win

Me being a Dedede player (heavy character) I can either switch to someone else or just acknowledge and play around the fact that Sheik can do such a thing

Very similar to chaingrabs, simple metagame logic

 

[DarkStraw]

How many Ice Climbers have won major tournaments? None. It's very obvious about how ignorant you are to Ice Climbers. If you have even watched a semi-decent climber you would notice that their game does not revolve solely on one move. Have you ever even tried them out? Holy ****, ****ing moronic ignorant people piss me off.

I see i was misunderstood, by one move i ment the infinite. I never said their chaingrabs were easy. The reason no iceclimbers have won tourneys is because its not easy, but its only a matter of time, give someone a copy of brawl and lock them in a room for a couple months with no one else and they can eventually master it. My point being that to be awesome with iceclimbers would take little real life skill, Once you get good at doing the infinite against all characters (which can be done without playing any human opponents) You wouldnt need that much vs practice to dominate most players in a tourney. Maby suggesting they would only need single player is a bit overboard. my point still stands, I dont think it takes much "real" skill. it takes lots and lots of practice, learning one "set of moves" (there how is that? does that look better than one move?) Another point i would like to make is another reason why there havent been many iceclimbers winning tournaments is because (thankfully) there arent that many losers in the SSBB community willing to spend the hours and hours in singleplayer to master the infinite. When someone plays iceclimbers the entire match revolves around the one or two grabs they will manage to get, Even if they dont constantly try to grab you the entire match it still revolves around those one or two grabs, just the fact that they can totally changes the game.

I love how you totally ignore everything else i said and just focused on the "one move" that was misunderstood.

Am i saying the infinite should be banned? i never said that, am i saying that someone who spends hours upon hours mastering the infinite is a loser? Maby not for all, but it seems to me it applies to most.