Chain Grab - Your perspective/opinion

[Kailex]

I am not going to rant and spike down on people who chain grab. (infinite grab to some) That's not the purpose of this thread. What I would like to get out of this thread is peoeple's opinon about the relationship of chain grabbing to justification and reasonability.

I've been reading up alot on chain grabbing, and people's idea's and reasoning behind it, and the multiple techinques and this talent these players seem to consider they have. Fine, fine fine, I get it. But it's hit a point where it's crossed the line on alot of cases and no one has bothered to say anything about it. So I am going to point these obvious things out and see what people think.

People that search an ice' climbers or King Dedede chain grab on youtube and anaylze the techinique. I applaud you. Why? For one, your practicing, two, your gaining a different aspect and approach to the game that you find entertaining and that's what the game is meant for, to have fun.

But that's where it ends, right there. To say that you can grab an opponent multiple times doesn't mean you got skill. It means that you dont have the ability to actually fight someone appropiately enough for a fair and good sportsmanship like fight, so you must resort to a techinque that gives you the edge over an opponent.

Dont you try and argue the sympathy issue of 'It takes skill to chain grab in brawl' I hate all of you who even consider this to be actually relevant and true in competitive play. You should all burn. To consider that a game that requires no more then two action buttons a challenge to learn is absolutely ridiclous.

This so called "technique" that few out of the many characters in the game have is not a challenge to learn nor is it difficult to actually maintain. And quite frankly, the people out there, who use chain grabbing often, when flagged for chain grabbing and forced to stop, have worser odds then the person who actually practiced dodging, jabbing, and all the other actual skill techinques in the entire game.

To pick ice climbers and do a walking chain grab and consider it a skill, is absolutely stupid, and you should be shot for even considering it remotely close to a skill if you have done so. That might be offensive to some of you, especially those of which who rely on this so called "skill" to win, but sorry, learning to double grab on a character is not a skill. It's a new style of grab that gives you advantage over players who cant get out of it.

The second argument that i've heard from intellgent and actually smart chain grabbers are is the norm excuse, "it's in the game, it's how it was meant to be played."
This sorry sense of justification for an unfair techinque just brings a smile to my face. There's a **** load of maps in the game which most tournament's ban, but for what? "It's in the game, it's how it' was meant to be played." but wait a second. There's actually a consideration to those maps that which get people killed and some just dislike. Cause in tournament play, things are usually played for neutral and equal playing field. But wait a second, if maps are taken into consideration for equality? would it not cross your mind that a move you use in the very same game might gimp another player and unjustify the equality?

To those who use chain grabbing competitively will definitely not care for the last sentence cause gimping another player is definitely worth it for the money or item they recieve and that's fine. But I am happy to say that alot of New York- Long Island, Queens, Brooklyn, Manhattan, Tristate tournaments got the clue fast and simply banned it from competitive play. Cause no matter the circumstance, it's beyond challenging to escape a practiced chain grabber, it's near impossible, learn to play the game without doing the moves repetitively if your going to take it into competitive game play.

But that' brings it to the worst of the worst. This is where it actually has gone way beyond the limit. It's almost like an addictive drug that some players just cant let go.

Even though chain grabbing has been banned from alot of tournaments, you have alot of players who openly admit to chain grabbing, but say something along the lines of "I am just grabbing him a few, it's not like im inifinite grabbing." and so now, some tournaments have adapted to this new fond term and ban infinite grabbing. However, it doesn't eliminate the fact that people can chain grab and go straight into edgeguard for maybe a few stocks just to get the edge and then fight it out.

One video I had seen really reminded me of a couple of my friends out here in Queens. Unlike my friends, this dude hasn't changed his way's according to a few. "Dededemocracy" search on youtube if you havent' has from the title, a combo video! And in all honesty, I will be a fair critic. There are a few combos in the video, and several simple edge guarding techniques. Id fair it a 6/10, definitely something a noob couldn't get through but someone who knew King Dedede and knew how to avoid the counter-kick and up&down hammer, could get around. But beyond that, it's nothing more than chain grabbing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7J5Aa6oOR9g&feature=related
(link for the lazy =D)

I especially loved the bridge fight, where DDD chain grabbed Samus into K.O. and considered it a combination. The lovely thing about this is that this is actual proof of grabs being allowed in competitive play like this. But I wont go into to much detail on the video, it speaks for itself.

The last point that chain grabbers make is some most have heard. "Its not absolutely impossible to avoid, so there-for, not unfair."

This excuse is by far the worse. A million and one comparative reasons can be made to unjustify this so called proof of use of such a move in tournament play. But instead of making people read more then what they want, let's just say this. It's the fact that's near impossible (and in some cases, absolutely impossible) to avoid which makes it unfair you dumb ****.

(Just for clarification, this thread may seem like it attacks chain grabbers, but that's not my intention. And for those that do, continue to do so if it makes you happy, play the game you bought the way you want to. Especially if your playing for fun. What this is meant for, is the people who face chain grabbers competitively. And the chain grabbers who know it to be unfair, and use it competitvely regardless.)

 

[old king coal]

here i will prove all that you have said is invalid. reply if you are still not convinced or if i have missed something

Dont you try and argue the sympathy issue of 'It takes skill to chain grab in brawl' I hate all of you who even consider this to be actually relevant and true in competitive play

so far if you look at the stats you will find that the majority of tournament winners are using snake and metaknight, who both lack chain grabs.

To pick ice climbers and do a walking chain grab and consider it a skill, is absolutely stupid, and you should be shot for even considering it remotely close to a skill if you have done so

it takes heaps of practice and skill to do the ice climbers infinite chain grab. go to the ice climbers section and watch hylians combo vid and then tell me that you could do that without months of practice? and then do it in a real life situation.

Even though chain grabbing has been banned from alot of tournaments, you have alot of players who openly admit to chain grabbing, but say something along the lines of "I am just grabbing him a few, it's not like im inifinite grabbing

the SBR have not banned it anywhere. the only place where it is banned is in texas, by xyro77 who agreed to a compromise (but you can do your research on that and use the search function in the tournament section)

The second argument that i've heard from intellgent and actually smart chain grabbers are is the norm excuse, "it's in the game, it's how it was meant to be played."
This sorry sense of justification for an unfair techinque just brings a smile to my face. There's a **** load of maps in the game which most tournament's ban, but for what? "It's in the game, it's how it' was meant to be played." but wait a second. There's actually a consideration to those maps that which get people killed and some just dislike. Cause in tournament play, things are usually played for neutral and equal playing field. But wait a second, if maps are taken into consideration for equality? would it not cross your mind that a move you use in the very same game might gimp another player and unjustify the equality?

those maps are broken because they can gimp players and create an unfair disadvantage. chaingrabs have not proven to be broken and as such are allowed in tournament play. most chaingrabs can only be done upto around %40 - %50 where they can be escaped from with proper DI

This so called "technique" that few out of the many characters in the game have is not a challenge to learn nor is it difficult to actually maintain. And quite frankly, the people out there, who use chain grabbing often, when flagged for chain grabbing and forced to stop, have worser odds then the person who actually practiced dodging, jabbing, and all the other actual skill techinques in the entire game

when you actually look up a video of a skilled falco player like sethlon or bombsoldier or a skilled IC player liked hylian and virtual void then you would be an idiot to say that they dont have skill apart from chaingrabs.

But that's where it ends, right there. To say that you can grab an opponent multiple times doesn't mean you got skill. It means that you dont have the ability to actually fight someone appropiately enough for a fair and good sportsmanship like fight, so you must resort to a techinque that gives you the edge over an opponent.

the fact that many characters without chaingrabs are doing better than ones with, just goes to show that it is not a broken technique. at a lower level it may be "unfair" as it is the enemy of noobs who like to run into a sheild grab. but at a competitive level it is clearly not as pros know how to get around it.

 

[Browny]

it takes heaps of practice and skill to do the ice climbers infinite chain grab. go to the ice climbers section and watch hylians combo vid and then tell me that you could do that without months of practice? and then do it in a real life situation.

ok ill admit the IC infinite is difficult, but the walking chain grab that finishes with either a f-air spike off the stage or nan charged usmash is incredibly easy, 2 minutes practice at MOST if you know what youre doing.

i dont have a problem with chain grabs, ill do it myself whenever im falco, dedede, lucario etc but when people defend it saying its skillful, well that i have a problem with

 

[Ørion]

I've never tried it, so I can't comment on the skill level, but isn't it kind of obvious when someone is about to CG you? I could be wrong, but for example, don't the IC have to de-sync to do it?

 

[Sans Glutin]

Nothing is wrong with chain grabbing....thinking otherwise is scrub mentality.

The good IC chaingrabs are actually really difficult go try them out and you'll see what I mean. Now DDD/Falco/Pikachu chaingrabs don't take skill but IC's most certainly do (except for the regular dthrow chaingrab).

 

[PK Hexagon]

The same rule applies as always: "Don't get grabbed".

 

[Ayaz18]

well shouldn't the infinite jumping prevent chain grabs now?

 

[giuocob]

Scrub, mental blocks, Sirlin, etc.

 

[redgreenblue]

I am not going to rant and spike down on people who chain grab. (infinite grab to some) That's not the purpose of this thread. What I would like to get out of this thread is peoeple's opinon about the relationship of chain grabbing to justification and reasonability.

I've been reading up alot on chain grabbing, and people's idea's and reasoning behind it, and the multiple techinques and this talent these players seem to consider they have. Fine, fine fine, I get it. But it's hit a point where it's crossed the line on alot of cases and no one has bothered to say anything about it. So I am going to point these obvious things out and see what people think.

People that search an ice' climbers or King Dedede chain grab on youtube and anaylze the techinique. I applaud you. Why? For one, your practicing, two, your gaining a different aspect and approach to the game that you find entertaining and that's what the game is meant for, to have fun.

But that's where it ends, right there. To say that you can grab an opponent multiple times doesn't mean you got skill. It means that you dont have the ability to actually fight someone appropiately enough for a fair and good sportsmanship like fight, so you must resort to a techinque that gives you the edge over an opponent.

Dont you try and argue the sympathy issue of 'It takes skill to chain grab in brawl' I hate all of you who even consider this to be actually relevant and true in competitive play. You should all burn. To consider that a game that requires no more then two action buttons a challenge to learn is absolutely ridiclous.

This so called "technique" that few out of the many characters in the game have is not a challenge to learn nor is it difficult to actually maintain. And quite frankly, the people out there, who use chain grabbing often, when flagged for chain grabbing and forced to stop, have worser odds then the person who actually practiced dodging, jabbing, and all the other actual skill techinques in the entire game.

To pick ice climbers and do a walking chain grab and consider it a skill, is absolutely stupid, and you should be shot for even considering it remotely close to a skill if you have done so. That might be offensive to some of you, especially those of which who rely on this so called "skill" to win, but sorry, learning to double grab on a character is not a skill. It's a new style of grab that gives you advantage over players who cant get out of it.

The second argument that i've heard from intellgent and actually smart chain grabbers are is the norm excuse, "it's in the game, it's how it was meant to be played."
This sorry sense of justification for an unfair techinque just brings a smile to my face. There's a **** load of maps in the game which most tournament's ban, but for what? "It's in the game, it's how it' was meant to be played." but wait a second. There's actually a consideration to those maps that which get people killed and some just dislike. Cause in tournament play, things are usually played for neutral and equal playing field. But wait a second, if maps are taken into consideration for equality? would it not cross your mind that a move you use in the very same game might gimp another player and unjustify the equality?

To those who use chain grabbing competitively will definitely not care for the last sentence cause gimping another player is definitely worth it for the money or item they recieve and that's fine. But I am happy to say that alot of New York- Long Island, Queens, Brooklyn, Manhattan, Tristate tournaments got the clue fast and simply banned it from competitive play. Cause no matter the circumstance, it's beyond challenging to escape a practiced chain grabber, it's near impossible, learn to play the game without doing the moves repetitively if your going to take it into competitive game play.

But that' brings it to the worst of the worst. This is where it actually has gone way beyond the limit. It's almost like an addictive drug that some players just cant let go.

Even though chain grabbing has been banned from alot of tournaments, you have alot of players who openly admit to chain grabbing, but say something along the lines of "I am just grabbing him a few, it's not like im inifinite grabbing." and so now, some tournaments have adapted to this new fond term and ban infinite grabbing. However, it doesn't eliminate the fact that people can chain grab and go straight into edgeguard for maybe a few stocks just to get the edge and then fight it out.

One video I had seen really reminded me of a couple of my friends out here in Queens. Unlike my friends, this dude hasn't changed his way's according to a few. "Dededemocracy" search on youtube if you havent' has from the title, a combo video! And in all honesty, I will be a fair critic. There are a few combos in the video, and several simple edge guarding techniques. Id fair it a 6/10, definitely something a noob couldn't get through but someone who knew King Dedede and knew how to avoid the counter-kick and up&down hammer, could get around. But beyond that, it's nothing more than chain grabbing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7J5Aa6oOR9g&feature=related
(link for the lazy =D)

I especially loved the bridge fight, where DDD chain grabbed Samus into K.O. and considered it a combination. The lovely thing about this is that this is actual proof of grabs being allowed in competitive play like this. But I wont go into to much detail on the video, it speaks for itself.

The last point that chain grabbers make is some most have heard. "Its not absolutely impossible to avoid, so there-for, not unfair."

This excuse is by far the worse. A million and one comparative reasons can be made to unjustify this so called proof of use of such a move in tournament play. But instead of making people read more then what they want, let's just say this. It's the fact that's near impossible (and in some cases, absolutely impossible) to avoid which makes it unfair you dumb ****.
(Just for clarification, this thread may seem like it attacks chain grabbers, but that's not my intention. And for those that do, continue to do so if it makes you happy, play the game you bought the way you want to. Especially if your playing for fun. What this is meant for, is the people who face chain grabbers competitively. And the chain grabbers who know it to be unfair, and use it competitvely regardless.)

ahahahahaha

 

[DMG]

This so called "technique" that few out of the many characters in the game have is not a challenge to learn nor is it difficult to actually maintain.

That is your opinion on whether or not it is easy. What is easy for me might be hard for you.

To pick ice climbers and do a walking chain grab and consider it a skill, is absolutely stupid, and you should be shot for even considering it remotely close to a skill if you have done so. It's a new style of grab that gives you advantage over players who cant get out of it.

I have to physically input grab, throw, grab, throw, ect. It takes skill. Now HOW MUCH SKILL it takes is a matter of debate. But the fact is, it takes skill of some level. The main problem is that we just can't universally define how much skill it really takes. For the bold text: If it gives you an advantage over people who don't know how to escape or that don't know how to face a certain character, then it isn't the characters fault that you don't know how to battle them. If people know how to get around it, then why is it such a big deal to you?

Until CG proves itself to break the game or to hinder the metagame substantially from significant tournament results, then it should be allowed.

/case

 

[Kilut]

Somebody said this earlier, but I think I'll elaborate a little.

Don't get grabbed

 

[pure_awesome]

Lose to the ICs recently?

Wah, wah, wah.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

i think CG is ok since as long as the player can actually do something else, since even shield grabing isn't impossible to avoid. i fought a CG once and he seemed good till i just spent time hovering just outside of his grab range, with peach, and he couldn't do anything w/o grabing me.

 

[Ulevo]

This has to be the most arbitrary, self justified ball of crap I have ever read. Redgreenblue's quote pointed out just that.

Does Ice Climbers Chain Grab require skill? You better believe it does.

Does Falco's Chain Grab require skill to use? No.

Do I care? No, I really don't. It's an advantage, and I plan on using it.

Do I have fun using them? Yup. I have fun with everyting in this game, even while losing or being Chain Grabbed myself. It's called love of the game.

Do skilled players pick characters that can Chain Grab soley for that reason? No.

Chain Grabs are not ban worthy in a tournament setting, and any stage involving walk off stages or walls will be banned for a multitude of other reasons. I would never complain about being Chain Grabbed by an opponent who managed to outwit me and land a grab. No good, respectful Smasher would. I do not expect anything less from the person I'm playing. If they plan on johning this way, they're not worth my time and effort.

If you feel like creating intelligent discussion, I encourage you. If you hate being Chain Grabbed, learn to avoid them or learn a character like Jiggs, and make sure you counterpick appropriately. But do not force you opinion on others and expect to be taken seriously.

 

[The_NZA]

I agree with everyone, although It saddens me that stages like Bridge of Eldin have to be banned. If there is a way to avoid that, I think we should find it (like cging off the blastoffs shouldn't be allowed), since I think BoE is a great stage, as is the MK stage. Well actually, if you think of it, BoE coudl still be a legal stage, since all one has to do is pay attention to which side of their opponent they are on, and then they shouldn't die by a CG.

Infinite Grabs of any kind i think, whether being a CG against a wall or the marth on ness thing should be banned.

 

[Eldiran]

As old king coal pointed out, the winners are usually Metaknight and Snake, and they don't have chaingrabs. Those characters who have a chaingrab (Falco, for example) need to chaingrab in order to compete with Metaknights and Snakes. Heck, I've fought a Metaknight and chaingrabbed every chance I got, and still got torn apart. And don't think this means Metaknight takes more skill to play because he doesn't use chaingrabs. He's just friggin' powerful.

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

I remember Gimpyfish saying that "Don't get grabbed" is not a viable answer. I disagree with him completely. I would rather strive to avoid getting grabbed by the Ice Climbers than to try to escape one of their infinites and fail. I am sure it's not impossible to avoid getting grabbed, which is probably why Snake and MK are winning tournaments, because they have such awesome conventional fighting ability.

 

[wavelucas]

I think mastery of Chain Grabbing is a good reward for the days of practice IC players put into it

 

[Binx]

I cant chain grab, probably will never be able to either (with ICs) and I actually did try and practice, apparently I lack the timing so whatever, but the fact of the matter is that it is a skill, as is landing the grab in the first place especially with their grab range. In fact all chain grabs are fair because the trouble of getting that grab in the first place (except marth vs ness & lucas lol).

 

[Blatherskite]

Lol, don't get grab is not a viable answer. You might as well just say don't play the game.

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

Lol, don't get grab is not a viable answer. You might as well just say don't play the game.

I am saying to try not to get grabbed. You will need to raise your chances of getting ahead in stock and surviving. To not get grabbed at all is impossible, but try to lower the chances so at least the match would be "less gay".

 

[isomorphism]

There are a lot of reasons why flat walk-off stages usually aren't good for competitive play, and chaingrabs are only one component of that. Beyond that, though, most chaingrabs aren't infinites and can be escaped after a certain percentage. The IC ones border on the unfair but they have enough diffiuclty grabbing that, especially given the situational nature of the grabs, they're not as unbalanced in actual play as you might think. The only CGs I'd say are truly broken are Marth's standing infinite on the PK kids and D3's standing infinite on DK, Mario, Luigi, and Samus (maybe Bowser as well, I can't remember). Both of them are very easy to perform and require very little skill, and both characters are way too good at getting grabs for just avoiding them to be a viable strategy. I'm pretty sure that those two (and the walking CG) are the grabs that are actually banned in NY, not the IC's alternate grabs or the running CG.

 

[thebasman]

OP,

So, there's the whole "in the game" argument, where you said that the argument made to CGs can extend to stages. This is an argument I've heard a lot and I feel is pretty wrong.

We'll just go with the DDD chaingrab and walkoffs, because that's the most obvious way that character ability has caused a stage (in part) to be banned (although most walkoffs have other very legitimate reasons for being banned). It will become obvious how this can extend to the rest of the CGs.

The reasons you ban a stage are because it trivializes a matchup. And if you are running a correct stage picking system, then a DDD main will only have to win one game to win the match against, say, Wolf, because if he loses a game, he can just counterpick him to Bridge of Eldin, Green Hill Zone, etc, assuming they aren't banned. We can agree, though, that chaingrabbing doesn't trivialize the DDD/Wolf matchup on, say, Battlefield, because at most your grab is going to net you about 30 damage and an edgeguard oppurtunity. It's certainly an advantage, but it doesn't make it twice as easy to win.

So, you say, just ban chaingrabbing altogether. But banning tactics is very hard to do correctly. So, I can't chaingrab. Does that mean I just can't grab more than once in a row before my opponent's lag runs out? Well, that seems silly, because punishing lag and comboing is a large part of this game, and I think we can agree that if C. Falcon had some inescapable string of aerials that worked on about half of the characters, did 30 damage and ended in an edgeguard opp, banning it would be out of the question.

So, it's the actual content of the tactic that's the problem? Doing the same thing over and over? The fact that it's easy to do? Does that mean we ban Wolf laser spam? G&W back aerial spam? These things seem to take just as little manual dexterity and variation to do; perhaps even less! It's escapable, so it's ok? Actually, these things are about as escapable as getting grabbed is, in that if you don't leave yourself vulnerable they don't threaten you. But guarantee you that if a good Wolf fights a less skilled DDD, DDD will take more damage on lasers than Wolf will take on chaingrabs. (And I'm assuming here that DDD CG is as easy to do as spamming Wolf lasers, which is obviously pretty untrue)

So, you ban chaingrabbing on Bridge of Eldin, and all the other walkoffs. You just can't walk them off the stage, that seems simple enough. But, does that mean I can walk them all the way to the edge, and then get the free ftilt kill? Wait, that's just as bad. So, I can do it until they get into the magnifying glass, and then you stop? Does that mean I can't throw someone to death if I happen to grab them in the magnifying glass? (If these proposals sound ridiculous, I guarantee I have heard them all at some point) And if you try to ban CG completely on those stages, then you run into the same logisitical problems that come with trying to ban it on any other stage.

The reason we banned Wobbles in Melee is because it trivialized match-ups, and it worked on every stage, so we couldn't solve it by banning stages. It was a situation in which banning tactics was needed.

tl;dr: You only ban that which trivializes matchups, banning stages is about 10 times less complicated than banning a tactic, so if you can ban a stage, that's what you do first, and if the tactic doesn't trivialize the matchup, you don't ban it.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

*sigh* Listen, chaingrabbing in this game is merely something characters can do. Its not a cheap tactic or unfair or "dishonorable" in any way. Lets say that I play Snake, and I come up against a ROB. ROB can destroy Snake with his laser and gyro. So if you are a ROB players, would you not use the laser and gyro against Snake just because Snake has a hard time dealing with it? And if I were playing Snake, I would have to change my playstyle around to deal with it. I'll have to crawl more, or approach with my powershield. Sure, its difficult to deal with, but I chose a character that is vulnerable to this, so I have to learn how to play against it. The same thing applies to chain grabbing.

I'm surprised nobody has linked this yet, but you seriously need to read this. Its possibly the most over-linked article in the internet, but its a great read for people with mental blocks like yours. Here: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/intermediates-guide/introducing-the-scrub/

 

[S_B]

I'm not against chaingrabs at all but some of the infinites need to go.

I don't care how good a player is: if the other player is of equal skill, they're going to get grabbed at some point in the match.

Marth's infinite on Ness, for example, makes Ness unplayable as anything but a counterpick. All Marth has to do is grab Ness ONCE, then hold shield and mash A and Ness cannot escape. It trivializes the match and it's boring as all hell to watch as it takes about a minute for Marth to use this to run Ness up to a high enough percentage to smash and kill him (which he also can't avoid).

D3's infinites on DK and Bowser are likewise immensely easy to pull off (I figured them out in a matter of minutes). The ICs' infinite is much harder to pull off.

Were I to host a tournament, I'd put a 5 chaingrab rule into effect: the grabbing player still has an advantage and can rack up tons of damage, but it doesn't trivialize the match to the point where players won't even bother maining certain characters (characters that have tourney potential otherwise) entirely because they fear infinite grabs will destroy them (and they will). Also, 5 grabs will typically get a chaingrab across an entire stage anyway.

I think the list of "tournament worthy" characters shrinks fast enough as it is with natural tiers forming. We don't need it shrunk even faster by infinites bumping off characters who otherwise have serious tournament potential (like Mario and Luigi who can both be infinited by D3).

If I'm a scrub for wanting to see tournaments which consist of more than just Snakes fighting Metaknights or dittoing each other, then I happily accept the title.

 

[isomorphism]

*sigh* Listen, chaingrabbing in this game is merely something characters can do. Its not a cheap tactic or unfair or "dishonorable" in any way. Lets say that I play Snake, and I come up against a ROB. ROB can destroy Snake with his laser and gyro. So if you are a ROB players, would you not use the laser and gyro against Snake just because Snake has a hard time dealing with it? And if I were playing Snake, I would have to change my playstyle around to deal with it. I'll have to crawl more, or approach with my powershield. Sure, its difficult to deal with, but I chose a character that is vulnerable to this, so I have to learn how to play against it.

I'm surprised nobody has linked this yet, but you seriously need to read this. Its possibly the most over-linked article in the internet, but its a great read for people with mental blocks like yours. Here: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/intermediates-guide/introducing-the-scrub/

D3 has a reasonably quick grab and good grab range. If he grabs a DK (say) even once, and the D3 knows about the infinite, that DK has just lost a stock--it merely requires him to regrab over and over. The matchup becomes virtually unwinnable for the DK, since he has no projectiles, not getting grabbed is in this case very difficult with Brawl's engine, and there are only three stocks for him to lose. While that may be "fair," it also makes the matchup boring because there is no reason for the D3 to use any other strategy. All that's going to end up happening is that after the first match, the DK player counterpicks someone like Fox in order to have an interesting matchup.

What are DK's options here? He has no projectile so he has to come in close in order to damage D3, and he's big, making an easy target. He's fast, but not so fast that he can avoid getting hit at all. He can be shieldgrabbed or grabbed out of his own shield if he attacks from the ground, and I think D3 is one of the few characters that actually has better range than him. So while you could argue that it's not a cheap tactic and is not unfair, etc., DK's lack of options combined with how incredibly easy it is for a much-less skilled player to do suggest that at the very least it completely eliminates the point of the the matchup. I don't think that in general chaingrabbing should be banned, but I think in the case of infinite standing grabs there are compelling arguments for it.

 

[S_B]

It's funny.

Most tournaments ban stages which have walls to prevent infinites from working and they ban stages with walk off ledges to prevent chaingrabs from resulting in easy kills, but they don't ban standing infinites.

Why is that? Because they don't need the wall?

 

[redgreenblue]

The only thing I think that should be banned is an infinite move. If you can infinitely do something without any legitimate input (ie. marth mashing z to infinite a lucas or dedede mashing z and down to infinite a dk), then I feel the character has too much of a disadvantage. Perhaps infinites such as those should be limited to a maximum of 40-50%?

 

[Greenpoe]

*sigh* Listen, chaingrabbing in this game is merely something characters can do. Its not a cheap tactic or unfair or "dishonorable" in any way. Lets say that I play Snake, and I come up against a ROB. ROB can destroy Snake with his laser and gyro. So if you are a ROB players, would you not use the laser and gyro against Snake just because Snake has a hard time dealing with it? And if I were playing Snake, I would have to change my playstyle around to deal with it. I'll have to crawl more, or approach with my powershield. Sure, its difficult to deal with, but I chose a character that is vulnerable to this, so I have to learn how to play against it. The same thing applies to chain grabbing.

I'm surprised nobody has linked this yet, but you seriously need to read this. Its possibly the most over-linked article in the internet, but its a great read for people with mental blocks like yours. Here: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/intermediates-guide/introducing-the-scrub/

QFT. Read it if you didn't already. The words Don't get grabbed. have much more meaning than you're giving them credit for: If you are being chain-grabbed to death, then your whole strategy should revolve around avoiding being grabbed. This means playing entirely different than you would against a non-CG character.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

The way I see chaingrabbing or infinites is not like "oh, you can just avoid it" or anything. I personally see these as baggage when you pick a character. Every character has weaknesses. Every character has something that makes them bad in a certain area. Lying to yourself, pretending that they aren't there, ignoring their presence, or hoping your enemy doesn't take advantage of them are all things that will hold you back from truly becoming good. If you want to improve in this game, find the weaknesses of your character, and learn how to compensate for them. By playing Snake, I run the risk of getting cypher grabbed or easily knocked out of my up-B if I'm too close to the stage. I know thats a major weakness of his. So what do I do to compensate? Among other things, I've learned how to do the C4 jump easier, and I've started to recover from much higher above the stage so my opponent hopefully can't catch me.

If I pick DK to main, I am choosing to main him despite his weaknesses. I have full knowledge that if my opponent picks D3, then I will not win the match. There is little "don't get grabbed" involved here, since that is unreasonable against an equally skilled D3. Instead, every time I pick him first in a match, I run the risk of my opponent picking D3. If he picks D3, then I'm likely screwed, but I accept that and move on. If I actually did main DK, then I would be sure to have a secondary that could take care of D3. Or I could keep DK as a counterpick character if I lose; that way I know for sure if my opponent is D3 or not since I pick after him. And if I win my first match with DK, I'll likely switch him out anyways just in case my opponent will counterpick D3. My personal method of compensating for that particular weakness of DK's is to second another character. And you know what? Thats the same way you make up for other one-sided match ups. Thats the beauty of the character counterpick system, and yet another way to make people who have these infinites easily done on them playable in tournaments.

In short, take your weaknesses in stride and learn how to compensate for them. Don't dwell on them or you'll eventually reach a wall that you can't surpass.

But first, you have to stop seeing things as "unfair" or "cheap." Start seeing things just as part of the game. Instead of complaining, you should learn how to counter them. I've seen so many people dragging their feet saying this or that is unfair, broken, etc. Those people end up liking the game less and less, they end up doing more poorly at tournaments with time, and they often just give up on the game (this applies to most games other than Smash, too). The people who don't complain? They're the ones who discover how to counter these things. They are the ones who take bottom tiers to the top all on their own. They win at tournaments, love the game, and transform the metagame by themselves. Have you seen Japanese players play recently? They are good. I'd say they're better than us right now. Why? Because they're taking this game in strides. We hare having one hell of a time trying to advance the metagame because of all the negativity surrounding us. Negativity brought up by those who are just trying to justify the fact that they don't enjoy Brawl (which is fine, because its a different game from Melee). And this negativity has spilled over onto the players who actually do enjoy Brawl. In fact, many people who are passionate about Brawl seem more concerned with trying to break the game to find ATs to appease the negative users than they are learning how to play it at its fullest potential as it is now. Not only that, but players nowadays are more concerned with what the tiers are, rather than trying to make the tiers what they are.

There is only one thing thats holding back the community, and this game, from evolving faster: Ourselves.

 

[SummerObsession]

I say don't ban CG yet as the game is still evolving. And not getting grab is not a viable option, no matter how good you are you will get grabbed if opponent is of equal skill.

Check out the video of Futile vs Lucky in pre-evo match where a chain grab can tip the balance and make all the difference.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xztE7qxmDJE

 

[Johnthegalactic]

Use your chain grab, I won't stop you.
But victory won't taste as good.

 

[Kailex]

I am still around to defend my points actually.

I've played chain grabbers and beaten chain grabbers, but haven't really been chain grabbed and beaten into a pummel, so this is not some vengful thread that attacks CG users. I think I pointed that out prior. The only reason I made the thread was to hear out people's opinion on the issue and to point out that CG is unfair.

Several people have said, dont get grabbed. Listen, if you can go an entire set of 3 without getting grabbed once. Why are you not making thousands of dollars playing brawl right now? Tell me that.

Enough with the don't get grabbed point. Grabbing is apart of the game and it will happen. A few posts I read had interesting points.

thebasmans post earlier, explained plenty on the situational problems with banning tactics from tournament play.

Me myself grab in secession but play-out combo's in-between grabs. But there' are times where someone can say you grabbed me three time's in a row or something of the sort. Does that mean ban me to? absolutely not. I am not voting on a limitation of grappling, or even ban it from tournaments. Me myself, found chaingrabbers to be not only competitively tough to get around, but really, brought a different aspect to gameplay besides the dodge. Whatever the idealism behind the playstyle be negative or positive, it did bring a difference to the game.

My point and I stand by it 100% and you cant convince me or someone who has the intelligence to look at things from an outside perspective and say "hey wait a second" can easily as hell tell, that infinite grabbing is unfair. Whatever it'd be in Ice Climbers, DDD, or whoever. It's straight up unfair because it's near impossible to get out of.

All of you know it's unfair, all of you (that are defending CG) are ignoring the fact that it is near impossible to escape those grabs. To tackle the point of unfairness by just saying "Dodge grabs" is avoiding the issue and point. And you know what, based off that argument alone, I have no quall's against playing you, chain grabbing you, and edge guarding you. And if you can dodge all my grabs, I will call your point valid. But anyone with a brain will know, a good match a good set of games, that's just pretty much stupid talk.

Am I asking for change? no, am I asking for a revloution? no. I am asking for other's opinion, thanks.

 

[bowz10190]

I use falco, and I do chaingrab. From my experience, my advice for those who don't want to get chaingrabbed is to listen to the people saying avoid being grabbed. I used to try to get the chaingrab almost every stock i played, and learned the hard way. People who are so focused on the chaingrab try to get the grab off any chance they can. That leaves for decent punishment. This isn't 100% because good players will see your attempt to evade the grab and will just go for regular play rather than getting the grab. But in the end, you've done what you set out to do, avoid the chaingrab.
It's really not that hard. Just watch how they approach you with grabs, and if they wait for you to come to them to grab, jump behind them and bair or something, you'll find a way around it.

Hope this helps those complaining about chaingrabbing....

 

[Foxy_Marth]

Its part of the game, simple as that.

If there was a tactic to get money easier like counting cards in blackjack. Youd do it. Same applies for CG's and many other smash techniques

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

And not getting grab is not a viable option, no matter how good you are you will get grabbed if opponent is of equal skill.

Again, you have to try to do as much as you can before you actually get CG'd. What are you going to do, just walk into the chain grab on purpose because you feel it's going to happen anyway?

Seriously. I know you're going to get CG'd. I have never said never to get chain grabbed, I said try not to, so that you can do as much as you can. I seriously doubt that CG's will be banned, so stop trying to act like we're morons for actually trying to strategize around it.

 

[bowz10190]

Although, it is disrespectful IMO for the infinites. Anything inescapable is just a slap in the face. In that video of Lucky's DDD vs Futile's Wario, the chaingrab against the was was completely uncalled for. Sure one or two would be ok, but to rack up that many is rude.

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

I am not going to argue whether it's respectful or sportsmanship or not... If it's not going to get banned, then we need to tell people to work on avoiding it and focusing their strategy around minimizing grab opportunities.

 

[rehab]

Tournaments have a neutral atmosphere? Could've fooled me, what with the nearly 3 dozen characters and god knows how many different stages to choose from.

Also, the idea that anybody is ashamed enough of winning however much money by simply chain grabbing to freaking apologize for it, or to care to try and justify it to anybody, is hilarious.

 

[Tyr_03]

Get over it.