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Chain Grab - Your perspective/opinion

juniorv376

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So we agree then: if a tournament is going to ban stages to prevent infinite or "unstoppable to death" chaingrabs, then they should ban the circumstances under which this can happen. Or they allow EVERYTHING in the game with no holds barred.

I should point out, though, that the SF reference you posted specifically mentions Akuma's prowess "not being a bug" and as such is unusual to ban. I find that interesting because D3's chaingrab is recognized as a bug by tournaments who ban walk-off stages, yet his standing infinite isn't.
No I dont agree, I was stating that by having a wall D3 becomes 1 hit kill on all cast. So I seewhy they ban it. But I personally wouldn't. I d go with what the majority want ebcasue at the end its best for the life of the game.

But I see the reasoning behind banning those stges. as I see the reasoning bhind not liking CG's, but i think for the btter of the game and prolong its competitive life span we need to allow it until it gets to the point where ALL characters areunplayable.
 

Ilex

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I find no problem with Chaingrabbing. Don't get grabbed and you won't die, simple as that. If a player is good enough to pull off a 0-death chaingrab, then they deserve to win like any other practiced player.
 

old king coal

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saying "dont get grabbed" is stupid. you will get grabbed: but the fact is that chaingrabs (read my original post) are a fair part of the game that balance some characters out. the only unfair ones are (1) marths infinite on ness/lucas (2) infinites/cg with a wall or walk of edge.
falco's can only be done up to %40. after that they fly too far away.
ic take great skill to do, and as such cannot be abused by scrubs. they have so many other weaknesses that it doesn't really matter that they can do a nearly impossible(in a real game) 0 - death. they are still mid tier

cant be f*** arguing anymore
 

Dantarion

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Heres the deal. Some characters have these moves that are really good. Some characters have moves that link into each other.

People who use these characters try to use their characters moves to beat their opponent.

Chaingrabs are just part of that. They are a technique, much like a combo. I could see if melee matches and brawl matches were just grabfests where the first grabber wins, but that isn't the case.

If someone finds a move that allows them to win, by all means, they can use it.
Things like stage bans try to keep people from abusing the easy infinate kills (walls, walkoffs)
but CG's haven't proven themselves to be deadly, and tourney results can show you that.

If this were a "push a to win with IC's" arguement, I would say "ban IC's" but their CG isn't that good, and no one has mastered the infinate to a point of unfairness.(cept maybe Hylian)
 

Browny

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I find no problem with Chaingrabbing. Don't get grabbed and you won't die, simple as that. If a player is good enough to pull off a 0-death chaingrab, then they deserve to win like any other practiced player.
press z
down throw
dash grab

repeat unti high %

charge usmash (IC) short hop d-air (falco)

it doesnt take any amazing skill to do that. you saying anyone who can master a 3-button combo deserves to win every time they get a grab? mortar sliding is more difficult than chain grabbing
 

juniorv376

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press z
down throw
dash grab

repeat unti high %

charge usmash (IC) short hop d-air (falco)

it doesnt take any amazing skill to do that. you saying anyone who can master a 3-button combo deserves to win every time they get a grab? mortar sliding is more difficult than chain grabbing
News flash.... people who have MASTERED this... to the point where they don't mess up are still losing to Snakes/Meta Knights... who don't have CG's....

So lets go with evidence.... CG's are not AUTO win anything... So they are not broken, otherwise every sate will have a CG'er winning everything.

CG's add depth to the game, no matter how simple. It creates another option. That is far from being the BEST option since. the overall depth of the game is far mroe important then Salvaging ness from an infinite grab against marth, same goes for Mario Vs DeDeDe. The game play at the end and how it evolves will decide if this game survives. Not Marior or Ness. all competitve fighters have a list of Characters who have Little to no chance... people jsut dont use them, because the overall depth of the gameplay is more important then saving those few characters.
 

goodoldganon

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Personally, I'm against the STANDING infinite grabs. The ones Marth and D3 can do. They take a little bit of practice and make a relatively fair matchup completely one sided.

CG's add depth to the game, no matter how simple. It creates another option. That is far from being the BEST option since. the overall depth of the game is far mroe important then Salvaging ness from an infinite grab against marth, same goes for Mario Vs DeDeDe. The game play at the end and how it evolves will decide if this game survives. Not Marior or Ness. all competitve fighters have a list of Characters who have Little to no chance... people jsut dont use them, because the overall depth of the gameplay is more important then saving those few characters.
See I disagree. Having Marth and D3 dominate a few characters for no other reason then having a relatively strict time limit down seems unreasonable to me. There is an article somewhere around here that describes why it is ridiculous we are banning walk-off edges but not banning these infinites. But anyway, I would think leaving 7 characters in the meta game adds more depth to the game then letting 2 characters pull off a simple grab on them.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=173861
 

juniorv376

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Quoting from the "Article" the above poster mentioned.

In many current tournaments, both stages with walls and stages with walk-off edges are banned for the purpose of preventing infinite wall grabs and "to death" walk off chain grabs.

Yet, the 7 characters who are vulnerable to standing infinite grabs (Ness, Lucas, Bowser, DK, Mario, Luigi and Samus) and the players who main them are typically told to "Avoid being grabbed." by a D3/Marth player because, much like when other characters are trapped against a wall or chaingrabbed off a walk-off stage, a single grab is death for us.

So because Dedede can pound Snake against a wall or off the stage (yes, I looked into it), walled and walk-offs are banned but his standing infinite on 5 characters is still A-ok?

I don't run a tournament (yet), but if I did, I'd opt for a 5 grab maximum rule. It's easy to enforce, it still racks up a TON of damage with a single grab to start it, yet it doesn't equate the loss of a stock with a single grab. Everyone can choose to main these 7 characters without their matches being trivialized by infinites (they're still at a disadvantage, but nearly as much of one).

Frankly, anyone who bans these stages to protect certain characters without limiting infinites to protect ALL characters is, simply put, a hypocrite.
The banning Walk-Offs/Wall stases is not to "protect" a few characters... It's to avoid having DeDeDe the only playable character on that stage (Hindering the ENTIRE cast, hurting the depth of the game).

And don't give me that "NO ONE WAS GOING TO WIN WITH THOSE CHARACTERS ANYWAY! LOLOL" garbage.

Tiers in Melee took YEARS to evolve into their current state. Any of these 7 characters could have serious untapped potential which has yet to be discovered, just as it took some time before Ken brought Marth into the high tiers. But that potential will likely never be tapped if no one is going to bother maining these characters in tournaments to start with.
Characters have flaws. Which is what places them in the tier they end up. You don't pretend that those 7 characters don't have a weakness. (Being infinite grab). If they have a flaw big enough to put them down on the tier list, then thats that for that charcter. Characters get placed high because their Pros out weight their Cons, until those 7 characters Pros dont outweight their flaws then they will stay bottom. When a game starts characters are labled "Garbage" and "Unplayable", but people discover things with them anyways. You dont discover new things in tournaments play. So if you want to learn./Untap potential then do it. Its not gonna happen in serious play anyways.

If you host/organize a tournament, it's upon your shoulders to either limit the number of consecutive grabs (you only need to watch out for infinites happening with one of the 7 characters when they're fighting a Marth/D3) or tell everyone at the tournament to "Learn to not get grabbed by D3 players" on Eldin Bridge and Delphino Plaza.
Majority of tournaments will continue to allow CG/Infinte grab. Its not hindering the game, its helping. And Ive said, others have said, and ill repeat, CG/infinite Grabs are proving to be inferior to other techniques/style of play.

Until the day where all you see is DDD's and grabfest.(Which would THEN be hurting the games depth), things will remain. And as it stands right now CG/Infiinite grabs are better for the game then if removed.

Though it is possible for it to change, if DDD/Falco/IC have some form of un tapped potential that unbalances the ENTIRE GAME, not just certain match-Ups.
 

S_B

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No I dont agree, I was stating that by having a wall D3 becomes 1 hit kill on all cast.
You are mistaken. The following characters cannot be wall infinited:

Fox
Jiggly Puff
Pikachu
Olimar
Zelda
Mr. Game & Watch
Sheik
Kirby
Squirtle
Meta Knight
Falco
ZSS

If players don't like being wall infinited, they can play one of these characters.

Ergo, there is no reason to ban wall stages and anyone who insists they be banned is a whining scrub and should be told to "Avoid being grabbed or start maining Pikachu".
 

juniorv376

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You are mistaken. The following characters cannot be wall infinited:

Fox
Jiggly Puff
Pikachu
Olimar
Zelda
Mr. Game & Watch
Sheik
Kirby
Squirtle
Meta Knight
Falco
ZSS

If players don't like being wall infinited, they can play one of these characters.

Ergo, there is no reason to ban wall stages and anyone who insists they be banned is a whining scrub and should be told to "Avoid being grabbed or start maining Pikachu".
But they could be Wall- jabbed infinited.

Point being that a wall creates what would be unbalanced becasue Marth would D.Tilt jab infinte to Upspike everyone.

Thats would prove unbalnced and kill game play. IF CG's/CG infinites prove to make the game unbalance then I believe they will universally removed, and as they should.

But how it stands CG's/Infinte grabs have not proven to be game breaking/unbalanced/Win-all-Beat-all.

When CG's/Infinte grabs = Akuma in Super Turbo then it will be widly expected to ban. and People will feel they have reason.

as it stand right now this is all opinionated. And Majority rules when it comes to soemthing like this. So as the majority or the Pros/Community/Serious gamers agree too CG being good for the game they will remain and stay unlimited to however many they can perform.

(No im not Pro/Serious gamer, jsut part of the community who plays somewhat competitivly, btu not good =(
 

S_B

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But they could be Wall- jabbed infinited.
But then anyone can do it to anyone, and so, much like MvC2 which you've touted (at least I think it was you) as an excellent example of a competitive fighting game, whoever lands the first hit wins!

...or they could DI up into an Up+B.

Same goes for walk-off stages: if they don't like it, learn a new main.
 

Requiem

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I find no problem with Chaingrabbing. Don't get grabbed and you won't die, simple as that. If a player is good enough to pull off a 0-death chaingrab, then they deserve to win like any other practiced player.
I'll tell you this,

When sheiks "infinite 80%" chaingrab was found in melee people where also being pessimistic about the game sucking etc (just like camping in brawl now) but everyone developed playing styles wich had ways of punishing someone who tried to grab.

The whole difference now is...in brawl god **** grabbing is so ****ing easy, it's like everyone has melee-marth's grab range, they just suck you to them, and also alot of ways to punish it that where there in melee are totally gone.

Now you can say "someone who chaingrabs someone 0-death deserves his win"
And why is that? last time I checked someone "deserves" his win if they beat their oponent by having more skil, knowlege, better anticipation, better mindgames, mindset, everything.

Do you need any of those to grab someone in brawl?

Do you need any of those to press the analog stick down after it?

Do you need any of those to run after him and grab again?


I think you can answer this in all honesty to yourselves.


So saying that it takes skill is sheer bull****, but what I do agree to is that people who use it are just trying to use their character to their full extend, wich they have all their right to do.
Because of that I say banning chaingrabbing is bull**** (I'd think it would be more justified to ban snake instead LOLOLOLALALWLAOLOLOLOL) But ban the walk off edge stages since there its just ridiculous.
On normal stages when you get chaingrabbed and then edgeguarded you can easily come back with brawls automatic ledge snap system, and then even turn the battle around by ledgehopping an atack (assuming the enemy is still near).
 

juniorv376

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But then anyone can do it to anyone, and so, much like MvC2 which you've touted (at least I think it was you) as an excellent example of a competitive fighting game, whoever lands the first hit wins!

...or they could DI up into an Up+B.

Same goes for walk-off stages: if they don't like it, learn a new main.
In MvC2 infinites arnt death. There is enough dmg degration that the infinite starts to do 1pt dmg per hit. and after about 45-50 hits the character automaticlly gets hit out of the infinte. So the person is forced to "reset" the infinite to kill. and a reset is 100% mind games. That is why infinites in MvC2 make the game. And add as much depth into it as it does. The infites here are nothing like infinites in MvC2, in MvC2 its not even argueable if they should eb on. They HAVE to be on. Here (SSBB) its debateable, and I think the game will be jsut fine with or without. I just think they are much better on. I can agree with walk-off stages being banned. However, I think a Jab infinite/wall infite should be perfectlly legit. It is easy to stay away from the wall in order to avoid a jab infinite. If you get cought in a wall infinte sucks for you, should stay away from the wall. Like in street fighter alpha 3. When they have a character with a wall infinte saty away from the wall. If they cna get you to a wall through a combo or pressure then they deserve to get that infinite.
 

DanGR

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I'm not trying to get in an arguement, but all the chaingrabs in brawl are EASY to get off. I mastered the IC chaingrab in like a week and about 1 hour a day practice. So no, it's not hard to do.
 

juniorv376

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I'll tell you this,

When sheiks "infinite 80%" chaingrab was found in melee people where also being pessimistic about the game sucking etc (just like camping in brawl now) but everyone developed playing styles wich had ways of punishing someone who tried to grab.

The whole difference now is...in brawl god **** grabbing is so ****ing easy, it's like everyone has melee-marth's grab range, they just suck you to them, and also alot of ways to punish it that where there in melee are totally gone.

Now you can say "someone who chaingrabs someone 0-death deserves his win"
And why is that? last time I checked someone "deserves" his win if they beat their oponent by having more skil, knowlege, better anticipation, better mindgames, mindset, everything.

Do you need any of those to grab someone in brawl?

Do you need any of those to press the analog stick down after it?

Do you need any of those to run after him and grab again?


I think you can answer this in all honesty to yourselves.


So saying that it takes skill is sheer bull****, but what I do agree to is that people who use it are just trying to use their character to their full extend, wich they have all their right to do.
Because of that I say banning chaingrabbing is bull**** (I'd think it would be more justified to ban snake instead LOLOLOLALALWLAOLOLOLOL) But ban the walk off edge stages since there its just ridiculous.
On normal stages when you get chaingrabbed and then edgeguarded you can easily come back with brawls automatic ledge snap system, and then even turn the battle around by ledgehopping an atack (assuming the enemy is still near).
This post hit my point on the head. =) Snake > then any chain grabbing/infinites in this game. But no one speaks of banning him. yes chain grabs are cake, lmao whoever saids they are hard is lieing. It requires skill, minimum skill, but yes it requires some skill.lol.

If something is not "broken" dont fix it. And CG's IMO are not even close to be broken.
 

juniorv376

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I'm not trying to get in an arguement, but all the chaingrabs in brawl are EASY to get off. I mastered the IC chaingrab in like a week and about 1 hour a day practice. So no, it's not hard to do.
I am pro CG, and I never said they where hard. Anyone who saids they are hard in order to back up their point is lieing to try to make a case for themselves. Or to stregthen their case.
 

DanGR

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I am pro CG, and I never said they where hard. Anyone who saids they are hard in order to back up their point is lieing to try to make a case for themselves. Or to stregthen their case.
Oh, I'm not pointing out you in particular. I'm trying to discredit all the dumb arguments about skill being a HUGE factor in this.(so hard to do!!! I say w/e ;))
 

MidnightAsaph

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Actually, I would say your Falco friend did deserve to win:

  1. He gathered information on a useful tech.
  2. He applied said tech in an actual match.
  3. You went into a match ignorant of the most glorified part of Falco's metagame.

And now, you think its shameful to use something that all Falcos are known for doing. lol
I agree, but putting the chain grab aside, I had what it took. When I play games, I measure skill when chaingrabbing, items, and multiple enemies are absent (anything else cheap)? Chaingrabbing does not take skill. Think it as you want to, but that's my opinion.
 

SnatchForFree

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The person who uses the best techniques or strategy deserves to be the person who wins. If chaingrabbing happens to be the best strategy, and another more "skillfull" strategy isn't, then why not use chaingrabbing to win? Find ways around it, use it, or stop *****ing.
 

Mr. Escalator

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Chain grabbing is incredibly easy. With everyone. IC's didnt even take as long as I expected (though I still cant do the extremely elaborate grabs and followups).

I don't have much of an issue with CG's, but when it becomes a standing infinite or the stupid release grab, I do have issues with those. I don't main anyone who succumbs to such an infinite (except I suppose IC's could still beat me up), as G&W is sexy, but I feel for those who switched mains because their character were shut down so soundly against Marth or Dedede. It's a matter of muscle memory to learn this things, and not even this when you're a charizard chompin' on a Ness, but not skill.

Personally, I would like to see some sort of way to limit these infinites.
But, it doesn't affect me too personally, and Im not here to argue.
 

juniorv376

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Chain grabbing is incredibly easy. With everyone. IC's didnt even take as long as I expected (though I still cant do the extremely elaborate grabs and followups).

I don't have much of an issue with CG's, but when it becomes a standing infinite or the stupid release grab, I do have issues with those. I don't main anyone who succumbs to such an infinite (except I suppose IC's could still beat me up), as G&W is sexy, but I feel for those who switched mains because their character were shut down so soundly against Marth or Dedede. It's a matter of muscle memory to learn this things, and not even this when you're a charizard chompin' on a Ness, but not skill.

Personally, I would like to see some sort of way to limit these infinites.
But, it doesn't affect me too personally, and Im not here to argue.
In all games people are forced to switch there mains becasue there main hasreached its peak of growth and the characters around him are still evoloving. When a game first comes out the field is pretty balanced. But as the game evolves some character grow fast some slow. Some stop growing. You can main those that stopped growing, but you will lose to people (yes even those with less skill then you) because they ahd a more capable character.

It's to the logic, when playing competitive play to win. And if you say thats cheap, then you are weighed down by these rules you have created of cheapness. And if you can get over the mental block that tells you that those methods are cheap, then those less skilled players who got over thinking it was "cheap" will be a better player then you.

You can argue its cheap, its broken, but if you are losing to it and not doing anyhting to beat it you are the "weaker" player. And if you say you can beat it, then you are a hypocrite, becasue thats clearly shows its not broken.

plaiyng competitive is not the same as a friendly match for "fun" where you are not trying to excell in a game. If you wanna excel stop thinking its cheap, and think you have to be "honorable" and "not cheap" to be good. People are beating those "Cheap" tactics everyday. But some of you can't. And if you are arguing about it and STILL beating their "Cheap" tactics then I dont understand your arguement. How can it be broken if you are beating it? Are you god that can over come all brokenness?


EDIT: Actually I think this thread has been good. No argueing, actual discussing, no one putting anyone down. People are sharing their opinions and debating. If someone starts to flame Ill just start posting somewhere else.


Though I am pro-GC I have still read many valid points against it. tough I feel the points for it are stronger, but Im sure those against it feel the same way. Everyone feels stronger about their own Point of view. and I am sure no one is here to try and change anyones mind. Debating is fun. Flaming is immature.
 

juniorv376

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Chain grabs = Bad memories


-N M E
lol, yeah I dont have any good memories of Chain grabs. I dont use a chain grabbing character in brawl. And I diddnt play melee competitivly. I sometimes wanna hit the control out of the persons hand when they are CG'ing me. lol.

Im still all for CG'ing though





Where has the original poseter gone? He seemed pretty passionate about his post.
 

Galeon

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Actually Marth has a 0-death chaingrab on 2 characters. Whether you use them or not is a different story.

I'm indifferent to cg'ing. I play a character that gets 0-death'ed by the above character but I wouldn't really get mad if someone picked Marth to beat me. It's a part of the game (unfortunately one of the least thought out in this situation) and I like the game, so gotta get over it.
 

N M E

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lol, yeah I dont have any good memories of Chain grabs. I dont use a chain grabbing character in brawl. And I diddnt play melee competitivly. I sometimes wanna hit the control out of the persons hand when they are CG'ing me. lol.

Im still all for CG'ing though
Yeah:laugh:, aleast chain grabs are easier to DI out of (Or so i've been told) i'm in europe :/
But if i have to fight fire with fire,i'm not going to do that i'm going to fight with water.(Crappy joke.)


-N M E
 

juniorv376

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I agree, but putting the chain grab aside, I had what it took. When I play games, I measure skill when chaingrabbing, items, and multiple enemies are absent (anything else cheap)? Chaingrabbing does not take skill. Think it as you want to, but that's my opinion.
This is the problem you are facing here. Creating these "rules" (for lack of a better term) in your head.

The brackets don't care what you or anyone else considers skill. They see "Person X beat person Y".

It's as if you are in a long jump competition. The point is to jump the longest. While in brawl the point is to rack up % and knock them out.

If you ran faster or Jumped higher while doing your long jump, but fell short compared to the slower/lower jumper. He still wins. Though you are more "Skilled" in some peoples mind becasause you had breath taking speed and height. he still takes gold, he still had what it takes to be "overall" better.
 

Monshou_no_Nazo

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I used to play Gunz: The Duel and having to fight players that had a million options if they flipped you into the air, most of them resulting in death or even stalling (if they get you caught against a wall or have very good aim). That's how I know to instinctively try to avoid grabbed as much as possible, heh.

At least infinites require certain conditions, such as a bad match up or a skilled Ice Climbers player.
 

juniorv376

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Actually Marth has a 0-death chaingrab on 2 characters. Whether you use them or not is a different story.

I'm indifferent to cg'ing. I play a character that gets 0-death'ed by the above character but I wouldn't really get mad if someone picked Marth to beat me. It's a part of the game (unfortunately one of the least thought out in this situation) and I like the game, so gotta get over it.
I meant that Marth's metagame doesnt revolve around chain grab. And I cant do it to lucas past 60% (Dont know why I fail I guess lol). But I would use it if someone picked Ness against me. If I take a good lead Ill stop, and if he catches up Ill use it again lol. I may not be good compared to other people, btu If I have an advantage ill exploit it. and Ill only stop in order to try to get some more expeirence then just Shield-grab. it is boring, and feels tedious even, but in competition people around you are palying to win


BTW, galeon, hows your Wario looking?

Yeah:laugh:, aleast chain grabs are easier to DI out of (Or so i've been told) i'm in europe :/
But if i have to fight fire with fire,i'm not going to do that i'm going to fight with water.(Crappy joke.)


-N M E
Maybe a bad joke (i thought it wasnt half bad hehe). But its true, they exploit your weakness, exploit theirs.)
 

Mr. Escalator

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In all games people are forced to switch there mains becasue there main hasreached its peak of growth and the characters around him are still evoloving. When a game first comes out the field is pretty balanced. But as the game evolves some character grow fast some slow. Some stop growing. You can main those that stopped growing, but you will lose to people (yes even those with less skill then you) because they ahd a more capable character.
The thing is, though, that people are switching mains from characters who have seemingly GREAT potential. It isnt that their growth has stunted, its that the discovery of these infinite grabs has forced the players to stop developing their character. Ness has some serious potential, and if it werent for the Marth/Charizard/Squirtle release grab, he might of eventually hit high tier, mid tier at the very least.

The infinites arent part of an "advancing" metagame for the characters who have them (aside from IC's), they're little things found that hurt other's metagames. DK is awesome, but Dedede just has to grab him and it's a stock. This hurts their tournament usage, and that in turn hurts his still developing metagame. An infinite DOESNT help the character who has it even half as much as it hurts the character who's the victim. Marth does fine vs Ness normally, and the CG gives him an even bigger boost, but it doesnt help him anywhere but that one matchup.
It's to the logic, when playing competitive play to win. And if you say thats cheap, then you are weighed down by these rules you have created of cheapness. And if you can get over the mental block that tells you that those methods are cheap, then those less skilled players who got over thinking it was "cheap" will be a better player then you.
I didnt mention "cheapness". I also already know Sirlin's article, so you don't need to write a summary of it. Stick to what I said if you quote me. Infinites, not CG's.
You can argue its cheap, its broken, but if you are losing to it and not doing anyhting to beat it you are the "weaker" player. And if you say you can beat it, then you are a hypocrite, becasue thats clearly shows its not broken.
Again, didnt mention it being broken or cheap.
I dont beat it as a player, I'm blessed that G&W is mostly unharmed when it comes to ANY CG. Those who beat it play Snake.

plaiyng competitive is not the same as a friendly match for "fun" where you are not trying to excell in a game. If you wanna excel stop thinking its cheap, and think you have to be "honorable" and "not cheap" to be good. People are beating those "Cheap" tactics everyday. But some of you can't.
Again, stop referencing Sirlin. I didnt mention cheapness.
I just gave what I think of infinites, the things that ruin metagames.
Anything goes in a tournament as long as it isnt against the rules.

And if you are arguing about it and STILL beating their "Cheap" tactics then I dont understand your arguement. How can it be broken if you are beating it? Are you god that can over come all brokenness?
Didnt call it cheap, for the fourth time.
I beat it because I play G&W.
Those who play Ness are shafted if they go to a tourney because the opponent just has to counterpick to Marth and hit grabgrabgrab.

Seriously, I dont know why you went off in such a tangent when I didnt say a word about CGing being cheap. I mentioned my personal dislike for the grab infinites, which fit into the realm of CG's. I dont main someone who gets affected, I second DK but mostly play G&W, so its not that I get beat by CG'd.
 

juniorv376

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The thing is, though, that people are switching mains from characters who have seemingly GREAT potential. It isnt that their growth has stunted, its that the discovery of these infinite grabs has forced the players to stop developing their character. Ness has some serious potential, and if it werent for the Marth/Charizard/Squirtle release grab, he might of eventually hit high tier, mid tier at the very least.

The infinites arent part of an "advancing" metagame for the characters who have them (aside from IC's), they're little things found that hurt other's metagames. DK is awesome, but Dedede just has to grab him and it's a stock. This hurts their tournament usage, and that in turn hurts his still developing metagame. An infinite DOESNT help the character who has it even half as much as it hurts the character who's the victim. Marth does fine vs Ness normally, and the CG gives him an even bigger boost, but it doesnt help him anywhere but that one matchup.


I didnt mention "cheapness". I also already know Sirlin's article, so you don't need to write a summary of it. Stick to what I said if you quote me. Infinites, not CG's.


Again, didnt mention it being broken or cheap.
I dont beat it as a player, I'm blessed that G&W is mostly unharmed when it comes to ANY CG. Those who beat it play Snake.



Again, stop referencing Sirlin. I didnt mention cheapness.
I just gave what I think of infinites, the things that ruin metagames.
Anything goes in a tournament as long as it isnt against the rules.



Didnt call it cheap, for the fourth time.
I beat it because I play G&W.
Those who play Ness are shafted if they go to a tourney because the opponent just has to counterpick to Marth and hit grabgrabgrab.

Seriously, I dont know why you went off in such a tangent when I didnt say a word about CGing being cheap. I mentioned my personal dislike for the grab infinites, which fit into the realm of CG's. I dont main someone who gets affected, I second DK but mostly play G&W, so its not that I get beat by CG'd.
LMAO, no you diddnt mention cheapness. Asaph did. The "Cheapness" comments where not to you. They where to those saying Cheap. I incorperated my post to all rebuddles prior to mine. It was my mistake for not quoting his aswell. My apologies.

However, the fact that a character is vulnerable to an infinite just shows that character will now be less viable then another who isnt vulnerable to it. It brings him down, its all becasue of game development. But 90% of advance skill/tech are do to bad programming. Tiers are created through character match ups.

An infinite makes the game in favor to Marth over Ness: true.

R.O.B vs Marth is in favor of Marth: True. So if we remove infinites, we cant allow ROB vs Marth.

You can argue that the infinite was a bug. Then fine that then means remove Wavedashing, and L-canceling from melee.

Remove infinites, bugs, and un-blockables form MvC2.

Remove CC infinites from SF alpha:3

Remove kara canceling for SF: 3 Third strike

Remove ROll cancling from CvS:2

Ultimatly that would remove the depth in most those games that have allowed them to survive all these years.

Some of those have been out in the competetive scene over a decade and are still going strong.
 

Mr. Escalator

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LMAO, no you diddnt mention cheapness. Asaph did. The "Cheapness" comments where not to you. They where to those saying Cheap. I incorperated my post to all rebuddles prior to mine.
Fair enough. Just try to put stuff not pointed at me above my quote, if Im the only one you're quoting.

However, the fact that a character is vulnerable to an infinite just shows that character will now be less viable then another who isnt vulnerable to it. It brings him down, its all becasue of game development. But 90% of advance skill/tech are do to bad programming. Tiers are created through character match ups.
This isnt an advanced tech OR a display of practiced skill. It was an oversight an certain animations; Ness' break out, DK's escape, etc.

Tiers are created through Tourney Results and Matchups. Ness would be fine if it was only based on matchup, but tiers take into account real tournaments. Ness isnt viable in competitive play if the opponent knows anything about counterpicking.

I dislike how everyone is so quick to cast a character off just because they dont main them. You play Marth. Not Ness. You don't care. As players, we can make a decision whether or not to limit something as chracter-breaking as this. We don't have to, but why do we ban walk offs or stages with permanent walls?

An infinite makes the game in favor to Marth over Ness: true.

R.O.B vs Marth is in favor of Marth: True. So if we remove infinites, we cant allow ROB vs Marth.
Come again?

You can argue that the infinite was a bug. Then fine that then means remove Wavedashing, and L-canceling from melee.
Not a bug at all, just an oversight. Wavedashing and L-canceling affected every cast member, and it wasnt confined to a single matchup; they're unrelated to this infinite. The release grab animation gives Marth an obscene advantage over Ness where he already had one. It doesnt make Marth more viable. It just destroys Ness's tourney potential. If it was as simple as a bad matchup, I wouldnt be arguing this. It's a grab. You grab once and its over. Anyone can do it, WITHOUT practice.


Ultimatly that would remove the depth in most those games that have allowed them to survive all these years.
Sorry, but Marth being able to infinite Ness doesnt give him anymore depth. This doesnt give depth like Wavedashing and L-Canceling to characters. This destroys a character.
 

juniorv376

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An infinite makes the game in favor to Marth over Ness: true.

R.O.B vs Marth is in favor of Marth: True. So if we remove infinites, we cant allow ROB vs Marth.
Come again?

oops I meant in favor of ROB -_-





Ultimatly that would remove the depth in most those games that have allowed them to survive all these years.
Sorry, but Marth being able to infinite Ness doesnt give him anymore depth. This doesnt give depth like Wavedashing and L-Canceling to characters. This destroys a character.[/B]
I diddn't mean that they both add same depth. I can agree that Marths re grab infinite can lessen the depth of the game. My arguments are more towards Falco/DDD/IC grabs.

I was saying that if someone where to say that they should illegalize Marths regrab becasue of how it gives him an advantage. Then illegalize a Snake vs X matchup. But then they'd argue snake vs X isnt a Bug/oversight. Then at the end there argument will imply that you should illegalize all bugs/exploits/oversight.

(No nothing in brawl compares to the depth of melee or any competitive fighter out there. not yet anyways)
 

Mr. Escalator

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Oh, if you were talking about CG's in general adding depth, then I agree! I have nothing against Dedede/Falco grabs. Its when it becomes infinite or a free stock that I have some issues with allowing it. If it's against a wall it's rather lame, but there are so few legal stages with walls now, and I think they're all temporary, so thats not a problem.

Lol Snake v MK. Ban the Omnigay ;P

Chaingrabs are ok, but stuff like dedede standing in place while he infinites DK is sort of sketchy. These make matches almost onesided, so I'm partially for a potential limit to these, as I wouldnt mind seeing more character diversity.
 

juniorv376

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Yes, the standing infinites Boarder line In-or-Out. If they stay or go dont impact me at all. Even chain grabs at all. Ive been "trolling" here more for entertainment and debating. There are always a logical argument for both sides. So i figured it would be fun argueing the side I saw "most" just. Glitches/exploits/oversigths are iffy subjects.

Im for them, you are against. lol thats life. But it was fun. Im off of work now so I wont be spending more time here today.


Thansk to the people who had valid points and made it worth posting:

Mr. Escalator
Big brother
...... Cant rememeber anyone else and to lazt to go and look now lol.

have a good one guys.


P.S: I think the original poster got wooped by a GC'er and amde an account to vent, and is now nowhere to eb found =(
 

Xnpio

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To those that don't believe that "don't get grabbed" is good advice.. should realize that,

It is just like saying, "don't get hit", which is obviously one of the goals of the game, that help you do well. Being grabbed, is just like getting hit.. except in this case, grabs are more deadly than SOME hits. Therefore, you should follow the advice, of avoiding grabs, just like you work in your normal mindset, of "don't get hit."
 

juniorv376

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I am back. For like 10 mins lmao, just got off from hockey practice=)

To those that don't believe that "don't get grabbed" is good advice.. should realize that,

It is just like saying, "don't get hit", which is obviously one of the goals of the game, that help you do well. Being grabbed, is just like getting hit.. except in this case, grabs are more deadly than SOME hits. Therefore, you should follow the advice, of avoiding grabs, just like you work in your normal mindset, of "don't get hit."
It's not that people dont BELIEVE the advice. Itis thta its a dumbed-down way of saying it. No one goes in saying "Im gonna get grabbed". So saying dont get grabbed is redundant. Actual advice would be explaining to someone "HOW" to NOT get grabbed. You can say never attack a shield (Obvious advice but advice non the less). But like a grab is like a hit. Hard to go a Whole stock without getting hit, Same goes for a grab. A grab will be landed if thats their goal. They may take 100+ % getting the grab, but they will get it. You will never see someone not grab someone the entire fight(If grabbing is their goal.)

But yes playing with a mentality to avoid hits/grabs is a good idea. But not really advice since no one is going into fights looking to get grabbed or hit.
 

Dustero

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I don't care about chaingrabbing, since you can easilie escape it. I don't think D3's ifinite against a wall if fair, but otherwise, I'm ok with the CG.

Also Snake does have an infinite chaingrab which is EXTREMLY dificult to pull of and very situational. You have keep using your Dthrow when your opponent is on the very edge, but it is very easy to mess it up.

Anyways, I think you are just noob who is angry becuase he gets owned be people who have skill that use CGing as a technique.

*Dustero*
 
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