Chain Grab to Spike??

[Arty]

So usually when I go to tournaments, I see Falcos chaingrabbing to spiking whenever they get a grab. Why is that? On characters like MK and G&W, it is pretty pointless to CG to spike. What are you going to do when you spike them? Gimp their recovery? You'll most likely end up getting yourself gimped. It's a much better option to CG and Pivot Grab those characters with un-gimpable recoveries to the middle of the stage and then proceed to D-air them. This can lead to a jab to grab, or a tech chase, or whatever.

... Just pointing something out.

 

[Emperor Time]

CG-->Spike doesn't even work anymore. It's techable.

But, assuming your opponent gives you the leeway for the spike, you're in a pretty good position when it comes to making your next move.

 

[Denzi]

Because by hitting them off/below stage, you're putting them in a bad position (regardless of the character).

If you're lucky, you get an early gimp, and even if you don't, they still have to get past you to make it back onstage, netting you more damage than you would deal through other methods. I'm not saying that you can't rack up damage techchasing, it's just harder and they have more options/opportunities to escape.

 

[YUNq PHR3$H]

Because by hitting them off/below stage, you're putting them in a bad position (regardless of the character).

If you're lucky, you get an early gimp, and even if you don't, they still have to get past you to make it back onstage, netting you more damage than you would deal through other methods. I'm not saying that you can't rack up damage techchasing, it's just harder and they have more options/opportunities to escape.

''agreed''

 

[Hawks go Caw]

Not only are they in a bad position, you can reposition yourself on the stage while they're getting back up to play keep away if that's what you want. Plus it's just straight up easier and there's less chance of mistake.

 

[Arty]

This thread mainly applies to MK. Spiking MK does not put him in a bad position. He can do whatever he wants below the stage, and if you try to gimp him, a smart MK will up-B/N-air and just end up gimping you. I'm just saying that it is more advantageous to D-air him in the middle of the stage and follow up from that.

 

[Denzi]

This thread mainly applies to MK. Spiking MK does not put him in a bad position. He can do whatever he wants below the stage, and if you try to gimp him, a smart MK will up-B/N-air and just end up gimping you. I'm just saying that it is more advantageous to D-air him in the middle of the stage and follow up from that.

It puts him in a worse position than sitting in the middle of the stage, and like I said before, even though MK has more offstage options than most characters, he still has less than if he were onstage. Therefore, it's still better to go for the off stage spike.

Also: Human error -> he could die; Free stage -> Repositioning; You just having cg spiked -> he can't plank you, etc.

 

[Arty]

It puts him in a worse position than sitting in the middle of the stage, and like I said before, even though MK has more offstage options than most characters, he still has less than if he were onstage. Therefore, it's still better to go for the off stage spike.

Also: Human error -> he could die; Free stage -> Repositioning; You just having cg spiked -> he can't plank you, etc.

A good MK will never die from a CG to spike so I don't see a point in mentioning that. And why does putting the MK into a disadvantageous position matter. You can't do anything to him. He'll jump three times and up-B, and now you guys are in the same position. Spiking him to the middle of the stage leaves you some options into either jabbing him and grabbing again, or reading his roll and up-smashing him.

 

[kismet2]

This thread mainly applies to MK. Spiking MK does not put him in a bad position. He can do whatever he wants below the stage, and if you try to gimp him, a smart MK will up-B/N-air and just end up gimping you. I'm just saying that it is more advantageous to D-air him in the middle of the stage and follow up from that.

It puts him in a worse position than sitting in the middle of the stage, and like I said before, even though MK has more offstage options than most characters, he still has less than if he were onstage. Therefore, it's still better to go for the off stage spike.

Also: Human error -> he could die; Free stage -> Repositioning; You just having cg spiked -> he can't plank you, etc.

If you know what the Metaknight is going to do, then choose either way that will give you the better result. If the Metaknight spams Up B off stage for no reason, then chain grab to spike off stage and punish it when it's coming. If you know the direction he'll roll or whatever getting up option he'll use then chain grab to spike him on stage. Whatever works.

 

[Plairnkk]

cg to spike on the stage then tech chasing is better vs chars that wont die from the spike (MK especially). that extra 20-30 dmg u can get in from reading the tech is crucial since you can kill him around 90-100

 

[§witch]

CG-->Spike doesn't even work anymore. It's techable.

But, assuming your opponent gives you the leeway for the spike, you're in a pretty good position when it comes to making your next move.

No one has incorporated the tech yet, since it's ridiculously high risk.

 

[Juno McGrath]

. Why is that? .

because when you knock a character off of the stage, if they dont make it back, they lose a stock, and if you can make them lose 3 stocks. you win.

 

[J4pu]

you can kill him around 90-100

lol, flat zone is banned at the tourneys I go to.

 

[Plairnkk]

lol, flat zone is banned at the tourneys I go to.

lol a sweet spotted fsmash kills MK at 90 or an usmash around 100. you sound pretty stupid for thinking otherwise.

the % to kill isnt what is hard, landing it is the hard part. insinuating that MK doesnt die low is basically just proving you are a scrub and you will whine about anything involving MK

 

[pure_awesome]

First of all, please be more respectful to other posters. Saying someone is a scrub and sounds stupid because they think you're wrong is generally the immediate defense of scrubs who actually are stupid. I would like to believe that this is not the case here.

Secondly, those figures would only be accurate if the MK did not know how to DI and momentum cancel properly. Since it's safe to assume that most high level players do, you can stick on an additional 15-20% to each of those numbers. And this is assuming completely fresh smashes and decent stage position, too.

 

[J4pu]

even w/o DI Usmash doesn't kill MK until ~110% (before the hit) on FD, I've seen MK survive it at 125+% when DI'ed correctly.
Fsmash kills aren't all that common, I mean we don't say Ike only needs to do 40% before he can kill MK with his Fsmash, I don't see why Falco would be different

 

[Plairnkk]

even w/o DI Usmash doesn't kill MK until ~110% (before the hit) on FD, I've seen MK survive it at 125+% when DI'ed correctly.
Fsmash kills aren't all that common, I mean we don't say Ike only needs to do 40% before he can kill MK with his Fsmash, I don't see why Falco would be different

comparing falco fsmash to ike fsmash...nice..

ur so smart LOL

and yes, ive seen that too. its called move decay

 

[Denzi]

comparing falco fsmash to ike fsmash...nice..

ur so smart LOL

and yes, ive seen that too. its called move decay

Sigh...

You're wrong. There's no way Falco'll be killing MK with Usmash at 100%, it just doesn't happen (unless MK shield breaks and Falco gets a full charge).

And he wasn't comparing Falco's Fsmash to Ike's, he was saying that powerful moves =/= kill potential. If they did, Ganon wouldn't be where he is on the tier list.

 

[Sph34r]

Back to what the OP said, I think it'll just take some time. The tech (DIing the spike stagewards) will be incorporated and Falcos will have to stop being lazy and tech chase into something.

 

[Panix]

Back to what the OP said, I think it'll just take some time. The tech (DIing the spike stagewards) will be incorporated and Falcos will have to stop being lazy and tech chase into something.

I've had my friend do this to me, spike me and me try to tech it. it's pretty hard actually, but once you get the hang of it, its sorta easy.

 

[Teran]

I've had my friend do this to me, spike me and me try to tech it. it's pretty hard actually, but once you get the hang of it, its sorta easy.

It's easy to incorporate if Falcos stick with the extremely predictable rhythm of it. Well up to now it didn't matter that it was predictable because it was uncounterable.

When people start to tech the spike consistently, you can start to play other games with them. In retrospect, it might not be wise for all characters to attempt the tech, seeing as how a fair under FD's lip might kill them if we don't dair, whereas they can still survive the spike.

Iunno, no matter what happens, CG to Spike is and always will be a good option.

 

[Arty]

It's rare that I've played an MK that teched the spike... That means that I can jab them force a get up and grab them again.

 

[J4pu]

comparing falco fsmash to ike fsmash...nice..

ur so smart LOL

and yes, ive seen that too. its called move decay

absence of a reason why you can't compare 2 moves that are rarely used for killing in the same context

ur so good at arguing LOL

fresh Usmash can be survived by MK @ over 115
125 was probably stale

 

[superglucose]

I actually have some questions about this too. Can't we dash attack into an usmash for more damage?

It really doesn't put GW into a bad position since, as far as I've seen, he auto-sweetspots the ledge with his up-b after a spike, and then you have a GW playing ledge games versus falco.

Edit: I've noticed that when people try to tech my spike if I don't dair them they end up in a perfect position for a regrab. Anyone else notice this?

 

[Arty]

I actually have some questions about this too. Can't we dash attack into an usmash for more damage?

It really doesn't put GW into a bad position since, as far as I've seen, he auto-sweetspots the ledge with his up-b after a spike, and then you have a GW playing ledge games versus falco.

Edit: I've noticed that when people try to tech my spike if I don't dair them they end up in a perfect position for a regrab. Anyone else notice this?

You can dash attack into an up-Smash, but usually the MK or GW will DI away and only get hit by the dash attack.

But yah, a GW will usually sweet spot the ledge with up-B

 

[Denzi]

You can dash attack into an up-Smash, but usually the MK or GW will DI away and only get hit by the dash attack.

But yah, a GW will usually sweet spot the ledge with up-B

Even if they don't DI away, they have to be on the ground to be hit by the full thing. Otherwise, the Dash Attack knocks them too far to be hit by the Usmash.

 

[HizoSturm]

maybe it can be used as a stall?

 

[unit182]

cg to spike is for japes

 

[Denzi]

maybe it can be used as a stall?

Whatcha referin' too?

Don't just say "it", be specific.

You confusin me.

 

[OmegaXis]

Actually, it still does work. It has to be a bit more of a mixup.

Down-throw and right-throw toward the end.

Then spike.

 

[Denzi]

Actually, it still does work. It has to be a bit more of a mixup.

Down-throw and right-throw toward the end.

Then spike.

Umm... that's not guaranteed, the Dthrow -> Dair is.

 

[OmegaXis]

Umm... that's not guaranteed, the Dthrow -> Dair is.

I know. I was just saying mix it up and don't use the same throwing move rapidly. I've never really tried ending with a Dthrow ->Dair. I should try that.

 

[Denzi]

I know. I was just saying mix it up and don't use the same throwing move rapidly. I've never really tried ending with a Dthrow ->Dair. I should try that.

What's the point of "mixing it up" when you don't have to? The ChainGrab is guaranteed, there's no need to do something else, especially when it might not work.

"Mixing it up" is basically throwing away free damage.

 

[Teran]

"Mixing it up" is basically throwing away free damage.

This.

Seriously, we only mix it up and bother about not being predictable if we absolutely have to.

Considering our opponents are not CPUs, that's the case 99% of the time. Still, there are situations where you can do things where you can be as stale and predictable as you want, and if it nets you free damage, there is no need to try anything else.

Max unstoppable damage = Max Profit.

 

[J4pu]

April '09 join date shows in your post

 

[Denzi]

April '09 join date shows in your post

Necessary? We already shut him down, there's no need to be mean about it.

 

[§witch]

Being a **** is fun though.

 

[Hyo]

Being a **** is fun though.

qft.

also, if you don't attempt dair out the the CG, whiffing it as "mind games" isn't any more effective.

As for mixups, Falco doesn't need them when he's got a gun that shoots blue beams.

 

[Denzi]

also, if you don't attempt dair out the the CG, whiffing it as "mind games" isn't any more effective.

As for mixups, Falco doesn't need them when he's got a gun that shoots blue beams.

Jab mixups and things like that are ok, but CG mixups are a bad idea.

 

[Teran]

Necessary? We already shut him down, there's no need to be mean about it.

Well, we ARE Falco mains after all.