Celebrity Rehab Mafia: Day 5 Begins! Deadline is Monday, May 28th at 11:59 PM EST!

[Rockin]

But thats what I'm starting to see and not like about this wagon. I haven't seen many peopleb justify themselves being on him outside of #2 but I wanna see from his play why people want him gone, which is why i wanna look at his play more.]

But that's the thing: Orbo doesn't have much of a play. The only time he's been active is D1 (and even then, it's subpar). There isn't much on his play that can be said of being scummy BECAUSE HE HASN'T BEEN PLAYING.

Kuz is on the same boat currently .Vinyl at the time, was also on a similar boat (he was posting, but wasn't being helpful or getting into the discussion as much). Pink Lemon was BEGINNING to be on the same boat, but they've been posting recently and been adding into content (something that neither of the previous inactive/unhelpful players been doing.

See where I'm getting at?

 

[Rockin]

EWTOP: When I say 'Much of a play' for Orbo, I meant in this game.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Orbo if you are town and you think it's hopeless forget about that and fight with all you got, even if you think it is let your voice be heard and do something. DO NOT DIE QUEITLY if it does happen.

Still give me your thoughts on everyone and then key events you can recall these are important.

Rockin, i get how he has been near useless but i don't like how people jumped on a couple of people look grimy how they hopped on, I voted to get him talking more, others want him dead fast and i don't approve.

There is a little play but it is there and i don't like people throwing it away or even giving it a second look like I want to later tonight.

 

[Kantrip]

But this is what I'm talking about -_- You found us scummy, but you don't want to make a case or outline your suspicions on us because you don't feel the need, and because "Orbo is the play toDay anyways". That looks to me like you really only cared about us and thought we were scum when we were the play for the Day, and now Orbo is the play so you are willing to drop us for now. It doesn't seem genuine to me, it seems like you pushed us to go along with town and not out of genuine feelings that we are scum.



I think you are misinterpreting this as well. He's saying that you seem like you are hiding behind an argument that you make bad cases to justify not giving reasons for your read on us. And the second part, he's not twisting your words, he's talking about how you were using the "you know I'm bad at cases" argument against us to evade my request and blame me for ever askinh you to make a case when I "know" you are so bad at them. We've already discussed all this.



I agree about the DH connections, with the strongest impossibility in my mind (other than ourselves) DH/Vinyl/Axel. I can agree with Macman and RR not being connected as well simply based on their overall play and having a town and lean town read on them respectively.

I want to look back at the Rockin posts you quote here because he's the only one you have as unlikely with either mafia faction, and that might be helpful to look at since he's quite null for me. Rajam, does this mean you have a town read on Rockin?




I don't want the Day to end yet, I like RR's content toDay and want to hear more of his thoughts before the Day ends.

Were you really the play when we started our interaction? I think you should read that interaction again because I'm pretty sure there should be a display of my thought process on you as it went on. I was looking at connections to other scummies that I didn't like while talking to you (and posting them as I found them, which is why they randomly popped in), and at the time of my questions I am fairly sure you were not the wagon-to-join. It was still Orbo even then. The reason I am not making a case is because I really don't feel like it, and you asking me for a case with me saying I don't want to is completely fine. Explain to me what the scum intent is there where SCUM ACTUALLY GAINS and I'll even join you on my lynch. I don't like your slot because you have been grimy throughout this whole conversation we've had, and also the connections that I posted. I haven't even looked back at your previous play, so I can't be expected to make a case out of it. I think you're scum, but I know I don't have enough to convince others of that yet.

This very post of yours is EXTREMELY hollow. You are faking content.

You ask Rajam this question (paraphrased): "If you don't think Rockin is in either mafia faction, does this mean you have a town read on him?"

This looks so useless to me and I can not see AT ALL what you are getting out of this question. It looks absolutely useless.

I think you are misinterpreting this as well. He's saying that you seem like you are hiding behind an argument that you make bad cases to justify not giving reasons for your read on us. And the second part, he's not twisting your words, he's talking about how you were using the "you know I'm bad at cases" argument against us to evade my request and blame me for ever askinh you to make a case when I "know" you are so bad at them. We've already discussed all this.

Then that is completely incorrect. I am not "hiding" behind any argument about my bad cases. Here's how it goes:

-I feel that I am bad at making cases.
-I feel that July knows my poor ability to convince others (or at least can assume it based on my skill as a player) to vote with me.
-I feel that July asking me to do something that I think she knows I'm bad at is scummy, for obvious reasons (if these reasons aren't obvious I can bring this down another grade level).

This has NO bearing on whether I WILL do a case or not. It simply means I think the request is scummy. I'm NOT hiding behind it as a reason not to do a case. That decision would be the same. Regardless of how good I think my cases are, if I felt obliged to make one I WOULD. WHEN I WANT TO MAKE A CASE, I WILL. Make sense? Good.

I don't see how you can find it scummy how I refuse to make a case on you on request anyways. How many cases did marshy make? I believe his lengthiest one was

"he is scum."



Expanding on that,

@frozenflame: Get out of here with that bull**** of "I want you dead because marshy did". Stop sheeping a dead player just because his reads so far were really good. He wanted kuz dead too. Do you want that to happen after the cop inno? I have still seen very little to convince me that Orbo is scum, and I think people are just on him for a policy lynch.

 

[KevinM]

Overswarm place your vote on Orbo for me dawg, there's a big surprise in it for you if you do

(it's lynching scum.. that's the surprise get it"

 

[KevinM]

Actually hold on a tick..

OS don't vote that yet I want to do one thing first.

 

[I am Zim!]

Deadline set for 5/1 at 11:59 PM! With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch!

frozenflame751- (0)
KevinM- (0)
Rajam- (0)
Rockin- (0)
Macman- (0)
Pink Lemonade (Ranmaru/July hydra)- (2) Vanderzant, Kantrip
th3kuzinator- (0)
J- (0)
Red Ryu- (0)
Orboknown- (5) J, Rajam, Rockin, KevinM, Frozenflame751
Kantrip- (0)
Vanderzant- (1) Pink Lemonade
Overswarm- (0)

Not Voting- (5) Overswarm, Orboknown, th3kuzinator, Macman, Red Ruy

 

[Pink Lemonade]

Were you really the play when we started our interaction? I think you should read that interaction again because I'm pretty sure there should be a display of my thought process on you as it went on. I was looking at connections to other scummies that I didn't like while talking to you (and posting them as I found them, which is why they randomly popped in), and at the time of my questions I am fairly sure you were not the wagon-to-join. It was still Orbo even then. The reason I am not making a case is because I really don't feel like it, and you asking me for a case with me saying I don't want to is completely fine. Explain to me what the scum intent is there where SCUM ACTUALLY GAINS and I'll even join you on my lynch. I don't like your slot because you have been grimy throughout this whole conversation we've had, and also the connections that I posted. I haven't even looked back at your previous play, so I can't be expected to make a case out of it. I think you're scum, but I know I don't have enough to convince others of that yet.

You are right that Orbo was a play at the beginning of the Day as he is now, but Vandy made a case on us and people were okay with us going so we were much more viable of a play then than we are now. Anyways, I feel like we are arguing on completely different wavelengths. I don't like that you only find us scummy via connections yet you haven't even looked at the rest of our play from D1 and D2. I don't care if you make a case anymore, you've made it clear that you haven't considered the rest of our play and that your scum read is based off connections alone. I don't feel like that's genuine, just like I don't feel like your read and hops onto and off of Inferno/X1 were genuine.

This very post of yours is EXTREMELY hollow. You are faking content.

You ask Rajam this question (paraphrased): "If you don't think Rockin is in either mafia faction, does this mean you have a town read on him?"

This looks so useless to me and I can not see AT ALL what you are getting out of this question. It looks absolutely useless.

You are just throwing out false accusations now.

My question to Rajam is not useless, I'm asking him to clarify his read on Rockin for two reasons. First, connections do NOT completely define someone's read on another player: I've already found connections unlikely (like Bleck Mang and DH in Shining Force) yet found the player scummy anyways, or at least not a comfy town read. Second, Rockin is someone I've had trouble reading so I'm interested in his read on him.

Then that is completely incorrect. I am not "hiding" behind any argument about my bad cases. Here's how it goes:

-I feel that I am bad at making cases. Kk
-I feel that July knows my poor ability to convince others (or at least can assume it based on my skill as a player) to vote with me. From your pov, but that's not a fair assumption of my pov
-I feel that July asking me to do something that I think she knows I'm bad at is scummy, for obvious reasons (if these reasons aren't obvious I can bring this down another grade level).Once again, you are saying "I should know" and assuming how I percieve your meta/your skill and are not considering my perception of your skill relative to other players, and you are ignoring my motivation in asking you to make a case/provide reasons for your suspicions of me BEYOND connections, because I find your suspicions of us based solely on connections (and now our interactions I suppose) to be disingenuous and thus scummy

This has NO bearing on whether I WILL do a case or not. It simply means I think the request is scummy. I'm NOT hiding behind it as a reason not to do a case. That decision would be the same. Regardless of how good I think my cases are, if I felt obliged to make one I WOULD. WHEN I WANT TO MAKE A CASE, I WILL. Make sense? Good.

I don't see how you can find it scummy how I refuse to make a case on you on request anyways. How many cases did marshy make? I believe his lengthiest one was

"he is scum."

I'm not saying it's scummy that you are refusing to make a case. I found your suspicions of us based on purely connections to be scummy. I asked you to reinforce your read on us with reasons you find us scummy from D1 and D2 that WE have done, not related to connections. You have refused, and in doing so made reasons which are meant to make me look scummy for trying to get you to back up your read by saying "you should know I'm bad at cases" and revealed that your read on us is just as shallow as I thought. It's the fact that you can't back up your read on us beyond connections that makes you scummier than you already were.

And Marshy had genuineness going for him; when he pushed someone, I believed he actually though they were scum. Same with J and Macman who are two of my strongest town reads. YOU don't have that feeling behind your posts nor behind any of your pushes so far, and that makes me very uncomfortable with you.

 

[Kantrip]

Don't take offense to this, but I'm not going to drag out our interaction anymore. I'm going to read your slot in full probably during the Night phase, and go from there. Our interactions have degraded to "he said, she said" at this point, with both sides strongly advocating unprovable points about what the other person is or isn't doing or should or shouldn't know.

 

[Overswarm]

We need a lynch so we can see another NKill and then figure out why they picked that person, because today we're running up dry. I don't see Orbo flipping scum but then again I haven't been too involved in this game. I'll step it up if I need to but we seem to be doing fine at the moment.

 

[KevinM]

OS Vote Orbo for me

 

[Overswarm]

Vote: Orbo

 

[Orboknown]

Orbo if you are town and you think it's hopeless forget about that and fight with all you got, even if you think it is let your voice be heard and do something. DO NOT DIE QUEITLY if it does happen.

Still give me your thoughts on everyone and then key events you can recall these are important.

shiz, i don't have time to type this up right now :/ I know i think you and kantrip are town, OS J and PL i feel uneasy about(especially with OS putting me at L1 with four days left when he doesn't think I am scum.) FF I'm ok with, Kev I'm treading a line between null and scum.

Vote: Orbo

get your vote off me if you think I won't flip scum OS. we've got five irl days left.

 

[Orboknown]

@modwhat's happening with Kuz?

 

[Overswarm]

I didn't put you at L-1, KevinM did. Ask KevinM for me to take it off.


Thinking you'd probably flip town is irrelevant though as your death would still be favorable given the circumstances.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

That looks incredibly weak FF, the only point i liked about that was point #2 which is the only one I'm ok with.

#1 is bad logic.

#3 is ok if you had a reason to be on outside of #2.

I agree that he hasn't been useful for the most part and inactive. So a town flip wouldn't be the end of the world.

But thats what I'm starting to see and not like about this wagon. I haven't seen many peopleb justify themselves being on him outside of #2 but I wanna see from his play why people want him gone, which is why i wanna look at his play more.

@frozenflame: Get out of here with that bull**** of "I want you dead because marshy did". Stop sheeping a dead player just because his reads so far were really good. He wanted kuz dead too. Do you want that to happen after the cop inno? I have still seen very little to convince me that Orbo is scum, and I think people are just on him for a policy lynch.

Guys, I get it that you don't like the fact that I'm voting for someone because a dead player wanted him dead. I know it isn't the best reasoning of all time, but it isn't nearly as bad as you are making it out to be.

Marshy got Nk'd guys. That should tell you something. He called out two scum very early in the game, and now he's dead. Usually, scum have a pretty vested interest in killing people who have spot on reads and will be consistently putting pressure on people they don't want to be pressured. Listening to the reads of dead townies, esp. those that were NK'd, is generally not that bad of an idea.

Now I know you are gonna come back and say "lolololol WIFOM scum can kill people with awful reads just to make people like you go after them and thus get easy mislynches". Yes, yes they can do that. I'm not denying that. I just think that the fact that Marshy had two great calls in early game and then died without crumbing and sort PR to draw a kill, makes me think that he had something good going on and the scum just wanted him out. I could be wrong. I just happen to think that marshy was probably right.

Sure, he could have been wrong with Kuz. We wont know for sure until either he flips of Rajam does. I'm willing to save kuz for later though, since we have ways of checking up on him. Orbo does not fall in this category. He hasn't really done much and a dead townie who had spot on reads happened to think he was scum. With no one listening to me about how good of a play OS is, I happen to feel fine with just following the advice of a ****ing fantastic player who I know is town.

Shouldn't be that hard to get guys.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Pretty sure both Rockin and Kuz slot aren't scum for either faction connection wise.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Frozen, I understand that and it's also something to consider if you understand why Marshy wanted who he wanted dead. That's the thing, I really don't understand why. If I did then that reasoning is something to follow not the fact he was spot on and had someone else as well.

It is likely, perhaps but not indicative. I also don't like how everyone hopped onto him, that didn't look good to me.

As for OS, I just don't see what he did that was scummy, I won't take the inactivity as a tell but off what he posted? I don't see the disagreement on D1 and what happened later as being a scum tell.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I support this. Also seeing as most likely each Mafia will have three members and two blue mafia have already flipped, this (RR vs DH) is not a blue-blue defense between mafia members.

From my notes, I'd say Chaco/Vinyl and Dark Horse don't go with:

Chaco:
#413: Rockin
#540: Kafkaesque

Dark Horse:
#106, #107, #108, #110: Axel
#140: Pink Lemonade
#281, #284, #287: Red Ryu
#285, #287, #390: Macman
#434: Pink Lemonade
#555, #556: Pink Lemonade

Also regarding pink mafia, I'd say Inferno/X1 doesn't go with:

#298, #299, #317: Dooms
#418: Dooms
#571: Rockin

Would like some commentaries on those, specially if someone thinks those could be distancing

I was gonna post a wall but eh, this is more or less what I came up with.

Things I would add Kuz went against DH pretty early and I found his posts to be very skeptical of how DH approached the early days.

#330 by Kuz Which also in turn puts him against Chaco as well. So I would solidify him not being blue.

No way Rockin in Blue, Chaco was fishing for a ML a few post before the one Rajam linked here.

#429 might clear him of being pink, that doesn't look staged to me in terms of assessing each other and how FF demanded a CC. I don't think scum would ask for a CC of their own partner even as a bus.

So in a nut shell we got.

Not Blue: Rockin, Kuz, J, Macman, PL, RR,

Not Pink: Vanz, Rockin, RR,

I'll stand by this.

~

As for Orbo, only people I would think about going on would be Kantrip at this point. No one else stands out to me as someone I want dead.

 

[Overswarm]

I also am wondering why FF is so rabid given a cop clear is already on me

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

@ RR: OS is scummy for reasons that Macman initially pointed out and then I followed up. Metadebate about the whole costs vs. benefits of getting a direct CC aside (even though I personally think OS's argumentation is bad, but I digress), there were aspects of his proposed plan that were just straight up scummy. His plan was inconsistent with his contention that he had devised it for the benefit of himself insofar as he desired to help himself get a better picture of who is town and who isn't AS WELL as provide the most amount of info for the town. His plan did not accomplish these tasks to the extent he claimed it would. If you have trouble finding Macman's and my analysis, I'll go back and link it for you if you want.

@ OS: Mostly because I think your play is perfectly consistent with an independent so inoo cop results on you mean basically nothing to me.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

EBWOP: so innocent* cop results

 

[Overswarm]

Wait, so you wanted me dead before because you thought my plan was bad, then X1 flipped and you wanted me dead because you thought I was scum, then Rajam had an inno and now you want me dead because you think I'm an indie?

I'm thinking you just came to a conclusion early on and are trying to fill it up.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'll dig it up later.

Indy is possible but i wanna hunt mafia and I don't think OS fits the bill for that.

 

[#HBC | J]

Wait, so you wanted me dead before because you thought my plan was bad, then X1 flipped and you wanted me dead because you thought I was scum, then Rajam had an inno and now you want me dead because you think I'm an indie?

I'm thinking you just came to a conclusion early on and are trying to fill it up.

I gotta say I kind of am feeling this and get where OS is coming from with your suspicion FF. I could see indy, yes, but this does seem to be the case where you have been trying to find a lot of different ways to call OSscum.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

J let me direct that at you, OS or FF who do you distrust more?

 

[#HBC | J]

Deffo OS but that is by nature. This game, though, I would still lean towards OS>FF because albeit some tunneling from FF there is nothing that sticks out to me as scummy whereas OS is now just semi-ridding his clear and has ridden his way to this day-phase based on arm-chair mechanic posts and fluff pretty much.

 

[I am Zim!]

Deadline set for 5/1 at 11:59 PM! With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch!

frozenflame751- (0)
KevinM- (0)
Rajam- (0)
Rockin- (0)
Macman- (0)
Pink Lemonade (Ranmaru/July hydra)- (2) Vanderzant, Kantrip
th3kuzinator- (0)
J- (0)
Red Ryu- (0)
Orboknown- (6) J, Rajam, Rockin, KevinM, Frozenflame751, Overswarm
Kantrip- (0)
Vanderzant- (1) Pink Lemonade
Overswarm- (0)

Not Voting- (4) Orboknown, th3kuzinator, Macman, Red Ruy

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Now i consider if i go with a majority or persue my own reads.

Well, I'm gonna wait for Orbo to post then hammer, even if I tried i don't think i could move this away, but at the same time this isn't the end of the world.

Orbo give me your last reads, because I'll hammer afterwards. This isn't going to be stopped and i want your voice heard before i do such. Do such soon because if I don't someone else will.

 

[Pink Lemonade]

Don't take offense to this, but I'm not going to drag out our interaction anymore. I'm going to read your slot in full probably during the Night phase, and go from there. Our interactions have degraded to "he said, she said" at this point, with both sides strongly advocating unprovable points about what the other person is or isn't doing or should or shouldn't know.

No offense taken, I understand that this conversation has lead into a lot of speculation.


I don't find ff's reasons for voting Orbo scummy, possibly because he's actually provided some reasoning. The only other members of the wagon I remember substantiating their votes are J and Rajam, and obviously RR has been considering the value of an Orbo lynch toDay. Everyone else seems to be on Orbo due to inactivity or because he's an easy lynch/popular opinion.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Except his only reason is that Orbo has done nothing and been semi useless.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Well that and the Marshy wanted it part, but that's eh at best.

 

[vanderzant]

So I totally NAILED that test yesterday . I'll catch up and convince you all why PL is scum today (hopefully) but if not over the weekend.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Tomorrow not today Vanz.

 

[vanderzant]

Alright Ran, you find me scummy because Joey defended DH. Cool. But I'm not Joey, so I can't explain his thought process outside of "you're wrong." Are you trying to convince others of a Joey/DH/Vinyl scum team, or are you looking for me to explain Joey's actions?

@KevinM, J, and X1: What do you think of Vandy's case on Chaco? Would you join us on Kantrip? : 3

This was well after a deadline extension had been given. You're just asking others for their thoughts, acknowledging existing support for the wagon, while giving no opinion of your own.

You literally did nothing wrt to the Kantrip/Vinyl pushes, until Rajam came in and counterclaimed and it was suddenly irrelevant. It is very scummy that you didn't get your hands dirty with either wagon, but instead asked for support on Kantrip without giving your own thoughts or trying to follow up a supposed scum read. I'd expect you to try and make the best of the deadline extension.

 

[vanderzant]

Tomorrow not today Vanz.

Fine with them being lynched tomorrow. No objections to Orbo dieing.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Wait for Orbo to post though.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Wait, so you wanted me dead before because you thought my plan was bad, then X1 flipped and you wanted me dead because you thought I was scum, then Rajam had an inno and now you want me dead because you think I'm an indie?

I'm thinking you just came to a conclusion early on and are trying to fill it up.

Nah, actually I mentioned that I thought you could be indy wayyyy back when I first started accusing you with Macman. I'm just reminding you that that is one of the remaining suspicions in my head for you. When I first accused you I considered many different scum possibilities for you, since we had less definitive information. Now that we have more info, I'm simply ruling out cases that are no longer likely true. You being indy was one of my initial thoughts and it happens to be one of the ones that remain.

I've been absolutely consistent with my stance on OS. This word twisting is just more evidence of his anti-towness. Blatant twisting of the facts.

 

[vanderzant]

@July: Yes I dropped my Kanty suspicion based on them not being aligned with x1. However two factions means it's possible for them to be on the vinyl/dh side. Vinyl/DH didn't have too many interesting interactions that I remember, save I guess Chaco/KevM, so I guess I can't rule Kantrip scum as a total possibility.

Vandy, PL doesn't flip mafia, what do? Join me on Orbo for toDay? *Kanty totally should as well and be a bro*

Look more at the people who could be on the x1 side.

 

[Kantrip]

shiz, i don't have time to type this up right now :/ I know i think you and kantrip are town, OS J and PL i feel uneasy about(especially with OS putting me at L1 with four days left when he doesn't think I am scum.) FF I'm ok with, Kev I'm treading a line between null and scum.

get your vote off me if you think I won't flip scum OS. we've got five irl days left.

Why are me and RR town? Those are awfully strange town reads.