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Carrot Me Bro!: The Bowser Match-up Topic

Zigsta

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Updated MU spread, taking latest patch and more competitive time into account. What do you all think?


+2
Dr. Mario
Jigglypuff
GW


+1
Charizard
Kirby
Lucina
Olimar
Wario
Wii Fit Trainer
Zelda
DK
Little Mac
Ness
Shulk
Ganondorf
Villager
Samus
Lucas
Mewtwo
Marth
Palutena

0
Greninja
Lucario
Mega Man
Pac Man
Rob
Robin
Toon Link
Mario
Ike
Captain Falcon
Ryu
Roy
Link
Bowser Jr.


-1
Pit
Dark Pit
Diddy Kong
Duck Hunt
D3
Peach
Pikachu
Rosalina
Luigi
Falco
Sonic

-2
Fox
ZSS
Yoshi
MK

-3
Sheik
 
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MrEh

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If this is non-customs, Bowser doesn't lose to Palutena.

Non customs Palutena basically doesn't even function as a character.
 

miniada

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Updated MU spread, taking latest patch and more competitive time into account. What do you all think?


+2
Dr. Mario
Jigglypuff
GW


+1
Charizard
Kirby
Lucina
Olimar
Wario
Wii Fit Trainer
Zelda
DK
Little Mac
Ness
Shulk
Ganondorf
Villager
Samus
Lucas
Mewtwo
Marth

0
Greninja
Lucario
Mega Man
Pac Man
Palutena
Rob
Robin
Toon Link
Mario
Ike
Captain Falcon
Ryu
Roy
Link
Bowser Jr.


-1
Pit
Dark Pit
Diddy Kong
Duck Hunt
D3
Peach
Pikachu
Rosalina
Luigi
Falco
Sonic

-2
Fox
ZSS
Yoshi
MK

-3
Sheik
How did falco become so hard
 

TheGreatShal

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I think Villager should be in the 0 or -1 zone, I think he's an obnoxious character to fight against, especially with Bowser, although that's just my personal bias and expereince lol.
 

Zigsta

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How did falco become so hard
He got really buffed with the latest couple patches. Combos easily and gimps Bowser very, very well.

Like MrEh said, Villager is garbage up close. Rush Villager down and play boring. Just shield and jab. Boom, you've beaten Villager.

@ MrEh MrEh where you put the Palutena MU? I know you have mor experience at it than I do.
 
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MrEh

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Probably +1. Maybe even +2. I'm not kidding when I say that character doesn't function without customs.

With customs though, fffff. Time to get comboed to hell.
 

KuroganeHammer

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Ness slight advantage? I must be playing this matchup incredibly wrong, I feel like whenever I try to do things against a semi-decent Ness that I have no options.

Mario and Luigi I feel are slight disadvantage and moderate disadvantage respectively. I mean, I don't see Sheik as significantly worse a MU than Luigi, Sheik camps way better but Luigi gets so much more off a grab than Sheik does; it's disgusting.

Captain Falcon is a -2 imo but maybe I'm just bad, if we're forced to Up B, you'll just get down air'd and die from 30% (0% if you don't have a jump).

Rosa might be -2? I mean, she dies really early but her Jab is polio and we don't have many reliable ways to get rid of Luma outside of dash attack.
 

Cassius.

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I'm not sure about the ratio on Ness, but I have been having less of a hard time every time I play against one. He can juggle Bowser to a reasonable degree when he gets the advantage, but really...who doesn't? He gets bullied offstage pretty badly,

Mario waxes and wanes between -1 and 0.

Playing against Sheik is more difficult than Luigi, and it's only going to get worse. I've posted like 20 different times from 20 different approaches trying to explain why the Sheik MU is bad for us.

The Sheik players in your communities and Smash 4 players in general need to step it up. They have A LOT to learn and need to really become disciplined. Number one example: approaching when you no longer need to. A large amount of Smash 4 players have Brawl roots, but it's almost as if nothing was transferred between those games, and it's really bothering me. There are very few things that Bowser can do to Sheik once a sizeable life lead is established, and it's too easy to get a lead and maintain it as Sheik.

Mid level players will have a nightmare facing Luigi because he feeds off of bad decisions and poor spacing, both of which mid level Bowser players are prone to doing. Luigi's damage output from grab scenarios and punishes on Bowser are larger, but the trade off is that it's easier to get to him and hit him because his mobility is garbage, and we can bully him offstage (something that, again, players aren't doing enough of.) While all of Sheik's combos are love taps in essence, Bowser cannot catch Sheik, cannot trap Sheik, or bully Sheik offstage. Her frame data is good enough that she does not have to fear anything Bowser does. You can bring the argument of "human error" into the discussion of the MU, as someone mentioned before (and I don't doubt it, human error is rampant in this game but there are more things that attribute to that as well), but you have to take into account that a lot of players don't have enough discipline or understanding of the game where they understand that they're in a winning state. I would bet money that the Bowsers who believe the Sheik MU isn't bad do not have players that play Sheik well or understand how to hold a lead well. Sheik can just let Bowser hang himself. This is something that will continue to worsen as the Smash 4 meta develops.

The Luigi MU isn't in our favor, of course, but Sheik is much, much worse. Believe us. Bowser players, including me and everyone here, have to do a better job against Luigi players. It's a pretty intense and frustrating MU due to the state of the meta + early game, but it will become easier with time. We have the tools to make it that way.

Falcon is not -2. It will never be -2.

I'm not really going to speak on Rosalina, but there are more moves besides DA that we can use to get rid of Luma. Would you really call DA reliable before anything else Bowser has?

Villager is one of the easier "zoner/projectile" MUs bowser has to deal with in this game. People write Bowser off as one who automatically struggles the moment a projectile or two are involved in a MU. I suggest you all to look deeper. How much damage does he (Villager) do while trying to keep us out? Can he keep us out well? Can we destroy or eliminate those projectiles without taking damage? How's his grab? Is walking really good in this MU? How much damage do we do once we get in? Those are a few of the questions you need to ask yourself when looking at those types of match ups you believe we struggle with.

Walking is a super important option in this game, and it's something you have to do in that MU (if not that, then crawling) to close space against Villager.

As I said before, bowling ball isn't a problem. If you time Bowser's Up-B, a bowling ball will just collide with Bowser's shell and he won't get hit.

And also, because someone will probably mention that it's not feasible to run the clock in this game: refer my point about players lacking discipline. Playing the game for money opens up new avenues and perspectives on playstyles. Sheik will get the damage she can get for free due to Bowser's weaknesses, and then just sit back and let Bowser lose to himself.

Fun fact: all of Sheik's main tools in neutral come out before our singular fastest move.
 
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Zigsta

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Totally agreed with all of Limit's thoughts.

Mario is definitely the closest to a -1 out of all the MUs I listed as even--but he's absolutely nowhere near as difficult as any of the other -1s, so that's why I stuck him with the evens. Rage and Fortress OoS are really your friend in that MU.

Unlike Sheik, Luigi can't just projectile camp all day thanks to how easy shielding/jabbing/avoiding fireballs is. Eventually Luigi HAS to go in, and his KO moves are all very telegraphed, especially if he can't get off a dthrow setup. Rage absolutely DESTROYS Luigi in this MU. When I played Rich's Luigi, he literally got me to around 150% and died to a Bowser Bomb at 40% on Smashville. Sheik, though, has a really easy time killing Bowser compared to Luigi.

I would say that Luigi is the closest out of all the -1s to being a -2, but playing ANY Luigi is nowhere near as mind-blowingly frustrating as playing a high level Fox, ZSS, or Yoshi. Playing against Luigi merely requires an incredibly patient and unique style of play. Luigi can play pretty braindead, so honestly Bowser needs to, too.

@ MrEh MrEh I'll move Palutena to a +1 for us since I know you have a lot of experience playing DM. I've only played AeroLink and TLTC twice each. :)

After that change it seems like everyone is more or less agreed. I'll put it on the OP if there are no massive objections, in which case happy to discuss further.
 
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Emblem Lord

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There is no way Bowser and Ryu go even. Not even gonna get into Bowser having slight advantage on Marth.
 

UltimaLuminaire

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@ Emblem Lord Emblem Lord Wassup! Long time no see on the Bowser boards! Yeah, I don't think Ryu is even. Ryu has the tools to consistently out prioritize our options in the neutral. Given time, that MU should end up as one of our worst. Marth is definitely not at a slight disadvantage after the buffs. It should be even.
 
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Emblem Lord

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Marth is prolly even. Ryu wins flat out. Risk vs reward favors him in virtually every situation.
 
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Emblem Lord

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I'm happy for my Marth brethren. I walk the path of the Satsui no Hadou now.
 

Jerodak

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Ryu seems like a strong character. Could you elaborate further on the Ryu v Bowser match-up? I don't doubt your claims. It'd just be nice to have some information on how Ryu generally wants to play vs Bowser.
 

UltimaLuminaire

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@ Emblem Lord Emblem Lord Correct me if I'm wrong. I play a friend that mains Ryu about once a week.

Ryu's ground game isn't ridiculous outside of his shoryuken, which is almost never thrown out for nothing, but what's really terrifying is how well his ground game, projectile, and air to ground game (due to shield knock back and low landing lag on many of Ryu's aerials) synergizes with itself. It isn't that Ryu needs to play any differently then, say, Little Mac, in terms of when to go in and when to hang back, but Ryu can lock us down up close as easily and, if successful in knocking us off-stage, can wall off our options with his projectile and follow-up with any of his devastating ledge guard options. Ryu also possesses good enough movement tools in the air that trying to catch a Ryu that doesn't want to be caught is pretty much a lose-lose for us. There's more risk in trying to be under Ryu than in any MU I can think of. Bowser has to remain center stage just so he doesn't hang himself.

Examples of Emblem Lord's Ryu in action:
Warpath Wii U 3
vs. Luigi (Po)
 
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Zigsta

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I've never felt from my experience that Ryu pressures Bowser like any of his -1s. Any Bowser I've ever seen lose to Ryu played really stupid and overcommitted big time.
 

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I don't feel that Toon Link is very bad or anything. Like the Link MU, it's a lot of patience and observation. You want to figure out what your opponent likes to do when you start to threaten their projectile game (usually as a result of walking power shield). It just happens that Toon Link prefers to hit the air more than Link does, and can get away with it much better. I'm in agreement with Zigsta that Toon Link is about even.
 
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Zapp Branniglenn

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I feel like we have advantage over Bowser Jr. That's a character that I feel is a lot like Samus. His pressure from projectiles, aerials, and grabs are really sub par, and he's got few kill options to work with. A character that can't kill without a read will have trouble securing stocks on Bowser's weight class. Furthermore, all his typical clown kart tricks are beaten by Shield > OoS Usmash. Also, he's the one character we can edgeguard easily with Fire Breath alone. One tick of damage after he ejects and falls harmlessly to his death.

I would also place Lucario into the +1 category for the same reason. We fear high aura lucario like any other character should, but if we take the first stock, absolutely nothing of his will kill us until we beat him up to 80% again. Especially since he's got no meteor smash angles. A poor dashing speed also makes his dash grabs easy to jab pre-emptively His frame data is also very similar to ours on the ground. Slow smashes, and a frame 6 jab.

There's a lot of +1s I don't agree with. Charizard, Marth/Lucina, and Kirby are all monstrous after the last two updates. Charizard can reasonably kill us off a Dthrow > Uair. Uthrow on its own is also a kill throw. Marth currently has extremely good frame trapping when he hit confirms failling Uair or Utilt and I find him difficult and dangerous to edgeguard. With all the changes to his endlag and landing lag, he's no longer comparable to us in general speed. But I guess Bowser can still invade Marth's privacy with Side B and Bowser Bomb just as well as before. And getting past his sword is the key to beating him with any character. Kirby's combo game has always been wild, but now he's got better setups besides approaching with Dair. Faster inhale, faster followups off of throws and a scary offstage game as well. I feel these character deserve an equal rating, but I also haven't personally fought them since the last update.
 
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Emblem Lord

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Ryu seems like a strong character. Could you elaborate further on the Ryu v Bowser match-up? I don't doubt your claims. It'd just be nice to have some information on how Ryu generally wants to play vs Bowser.
Ryu is another all around spacing character that can play at the same range Bowser does. But when Bowser messes up he could die or at least take huge damage. Utilt lock is free 20% or more even if it doesnt lead to death so Bowser isnt allowed to mess up. Shoryuken can be comboed into and can kill around 100% no rage which is unheard of for Bowser. Blow for blow Ryu can trade hits because he his just as hard as Bowser. Basically risk vs reward simply favors Ryu in almost any neutral scenario. Trap situations can also lead to death because of SRK. Ryu has real kill confirms and takes advantage of Bowsers inherent flaws to net stocks. Thats pretty much it.
 

MrEh

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Fighting against Ryu is actually ok until he starts hitting you. The neutral is amazing for Bowser in most cases. (Bowser's Jab, angled Ftilt, and Dtilt are all amazing here. Pivot grab is a given.)


Ryu is another all around spacing character that can play at the same range Bowser does.
Bowser out boxes Ryu really hard though. The only thing is that Ryu capitalizes hard on hits, wheras Bowser does. I'm not saying that Bowser wins, but saying that Ryu has a big advantage is a pretty bold statement.
 

Emblem Lord

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What does Bowser outbox Ryu with? His tilts are either not safe, slow or both depending on which one we are talking about. His jab is also quite slow though it does good damage and moves him back. Ryu generally attacks faster and competes in terms of damage. And some those options are easy whiff punish bait. Moves that are punishable on block and whiff easily are not what I would call solid boxing options. And really it depends on range as well because once Ryu is inside f-tilt range Bowser becomes limited. He has to block and wait for a chance to fortress essentially. But Ryu has legit safe block pressure so yeah.

Also Ryu's u-tilt is extremely disjointed and can beat out jab and f-tilt. Think Snake's utilt in Brawl but with slightly less range. It will clash with d-tilt but that is super punishable on whiff.

None of Bowsers options can just be thrown out. It requires precise spacing and being on point because he is punishable.
 

Zigsta

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Wellllll I'm just gonna keep my list to myself then and not put anything on the OP. I'm not a fan of theorycrafting to defend myself, and I encourage everyone to have their own opinions on MUs.

Ryu for me personally just isn't as threatening as any of the -1s I've suggested, and that's not going to change unless a patch changes the MU.
 

herpyderpherper

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For the lucario match up, couldnt we get the first stock, then just camp while making a conscious effort to not do damage? Just an idea since auraless lucario can only kill off a fully charged fsmash if im correct, espeically against Bowser
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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For the lucario match up, couldnt we get the first stock, then just camp while making a conscious effort to not do damage? Just an idea since auraless lucario can only kill off a fully charged fsmash if im correct, espeically against Bowser
Well yeah, but then how do we win the match? Lucky bowsercide or shield break near the ledge? I feel like when Lucario has low aura we can do whatever risky manuevers we want since the punish won't lead to a kill. Like Fsmash and blasting him point blank with Fire Breath. Anything to throw off the pace of the match and keep them guessing.
 

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What does Bowser outbox Ryu with? His tilts are either not safe, slow or both depending on which one we are talking about. His jab is also quite slow though it does good damage and moves him back. Ryu generally attacks faster and competes in terms of damage. And some those options are easy whiff punish bait. Moves that are punishable on block and whiff easily are not what I would call solid boxing options. And really it depends on range as well because once Ryu is inside f-tilt range Bowser becomes limited. He has to block and wait for a chance to fortress essentially. But Ryu has legit safe block pressure so yeah.
Bowser's Jab 1 is one of the most atrociously dumb things on the planet.

If you throw it out and it doesn't hit anyone, Bowser can just walk backwards with that glitchy dumb slide of his.
 
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Agreed.

It is outranged and outdamaged by Ryus d-smash which is 16% damage and 5 frame start-up.
 

Emblem Lord

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Vs Bowser in a non-customs environment I would say its safe. The block pushback is substantial.
 

MrEh

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Vs Bowser in a non-customs environment I would say its safe. The block pushback is substantial.
Customs don't even matter though.

Even a perfectly spaced Dsmash is punishable by Bowser. Hell, I was able to get run up Kaw for christ's sake. No powershield required.

If you want to be fancy, even run up Bowser Bomb punishes a perfectly spaced Ryu Dsmash. Effing run up Bowser Bomb.
 
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MrEh

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@ MrEh MrEh does fsmash oos work?
Against a perfectly spaced Dsmash, it does not. Not even a stutterstepped Fsmash. (it doesn't reach)

Against a mid range Dsmash, stutterstep Fsmash is a real punish. Regular Fsmash is always a punish at close range.
 
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Jerodak

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@ Cassius. Cassius. If you can get the grab, upthrow to jab or ftilt is safe damage on Luma. Also, Luma can desync with Rosa due to shield stun (obviously) so if rosa does a dsmash for instance and you block it from luma. If rosa attempts to do another dsmash right away; Luma won't keep up. This could create opportunities to damage Luma or possibly to go directly for Rosa.
 

Big Sean

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I have a bit of a different experience in norcal where we have super skilled dr. marios/toon links/kirby's etc. Also we only have sheik's that go in, so oddly the matchup for me has been entirely even. I've even played against Zex, one of the best Sheik's in the world, and the matchup never seemed unwinnable. He was just way better than me lol.


+1
Jigglypuff
GW
Charizard
Lucina
Olimar
Wario
Wii Fit Trainer
Zelda
DK
Shulk
Villager
Lucas
Mewtwo
Marth
Palutena

0
Samus
Ness
Ganondorf
Kirby
Greninja
Lucario
Mega Man
Pac Man
Rob
Robin
Mario
Ike
Captain Falcon
Ryu
Roy
Link
Yoshi
Pit
Dark Pit

-1
Sheik
Bowser Jr.
Little Mac
Toon Link
Diddy Kong
Duck Hunt
D3
Pikachu
Peach
Luigi
Falco
Sonic
Fox

-2
ZSS
MK

-3
Rosalina

Some notes:
  • I don't see any reason to put dr. mario anywhere differently than mario. All the ways mario does well against Bowser are the same ways dr. mario does. His recovery is probably the worst part of his game, but to me it barely changes what's hard about the mario matchup which is the neutral
  • G & W is definitely not a +2. Disgusting frame traps. Super strong and fast kills. This is a dangerous character and excels where Bowser is weakest, keeping Bowser in the air. G & W offstage is one of the few characters that i'm just horrified of. In general trades are always favorable for Bowser and of course we can kill G & W very early, but G & W also has a number of early kills against us.
  • I don't see anything scary about Yoshi. For me personally it's even or even + 1. The eggs aren't scary. Just like the villager matchup it's a lot of shielding. Unlike the villager matchup we also need good spacing to make sure while we are heavily shielding we also aren't getting command grabbed. The frame traps are the scariest part of this character, but we have those too :D
  • Pit/DPit as -1 was confusing to me. A lot of punishable moves. A boring projectile, I don't see the threat here.
  • My opinion is that rosalina is by far our hardest matchup. UAir is super super brutal. Dair is super super brutal. The windows to punish are incredibly tiny. Rolling after jab 2 is the window that presents itself most often but not only is it super difficult it's also not guaranteed since she can just stop after jab 2. The best hope we have here is really punishing her offstage.
 

KuroganeHammer

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Ryu Dsmash is horribly unsafe I would imagine...

I can run calcs later if you want, but I'd imagine it's at least -30 on shield.
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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Does anybody know if our Dair can beat Rosa's Uair, or at least trade? If it does trade, then that's a great way to keep percent even after she starts a throw combo. It'll also straight up kill her at reasonable percents. The late hit maintains a lot of vertical knockback.

I'm really torn on the Rosa matchup. The big problem that a lot of characters run into against her is that they have no real options for killing luma or separating it. Bowser's ability to kill Luma is pretty fantastic. If you can hit confirm Dtilt at mid percents, Rosa will get launched, but Luma stays after the second swipe allowing you to Dtilt again as he's still in range. Luma will be launched after the second Dtilt's first swipe, but you could followup with Bomb instead for max damage output. If both those moves happen to be fresh, the total damage is 50% precisely. But double Dtilt should be sufficient to finish off the average luma that was hit once or twice by Bowser's jabs, tilts, or fairs. Compare that to characters like Sheik, Fox, or Luigi that deal damage in increments of 6%. And they can't lock Luma down because those moves simply don't launch her the way ours do.

Plus her recovery has no hitbox, letting us time a Bair at the ledge with only moderate difficulty.

Time out. Not the most exciting or practical perhaps, but it is doable.
oh, I don't know if I should feel proud or idiotic that that means of victory slipped my mind.

But yeah, aura-less lucario is helpless. From the center of FD, none of Lucario's moves could kill Bowser until he was at 160% with Fsmash. Following that, Usmash kills us at about 180, and everything else requires us to be well past 200.
 

KuroganeHammer

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Vs Bowser in a non-customs environment I would say its safe. The block pushback is substantial.
Customs don't even matter though.

Even a perfectly spaced Dsmash is punishable by Bowser. Hell, I was able to get run up Kaw for christ's sake. No powershield required.

If you want to be fancy, even run up Bowser Bomb punishes a perfectly spaced Ryu Dsmash. Effing run up Bowser Bomb.
Quoting because I ran the numbers through and the 16% hit of dsmash is -39 on shield.

It's even more horribly unsafe than I originally thought...
 
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