Carrot Me Bro!: The Bowser Match-up Topic

[Jerodak]

Apologies for double posting, but on a related note. Does anyone have a reasonably good understanding of how Sheik plays vs Bowser in the neutral, as well as other important parts of the match? If someone could outline a few general key points from their own experiences then that would be most helpful.

 

[Big Sean]

Sheik's when approaching usually like to do it one of two ways. short hop fair/nair/tomahawk, and dash grab. up + b OOS stops aerials that are normally considered safe. Pivot grab beats or trades with tomahawk and the other aerial options. Sometimes a sheik will whiff a fair on purpose to bait a shield or something. Jab 1 usually gets out before dash grab, but you know, sometimes not. Another really good occasional option if you know they are short hop fairing is RAR. You may not get it every time but the risk reward is so high it's amazing. Fair actually beats sheik in the air a lot. Don't respect her in the air too much until she gives you reasons to.

Even though sheik feels fast most of the non aerials have frame data similar to other characters. Spot dodged dash grabs can still be bowser bombed. Shielded dash attacks can be bowser bombed as well. The biggest mistake you can make is respecting her ground game too much. I think Bowser's ground game is actually better. Everything but needles of course. Speaking of needles, I think what helps me here is understanding how little damage they do. Dashing shield is still the bread and butter, but occasionally you can take a risk by reading a roll or something while approaching in a way that would make me a lot more scared vs a ZSS or Luigi.

Your gonna be faired, your gonna be comboed but it honestly doesn't do that much damage. Just trick shiek more than she tricks you and you should be fine!

 

[Zigsta]

A smart Sheik just camps Bowser with needles. She has literally no reason to approach. This forces Bowser to approach, and when you overcommit, you get punished hard for it.

It's so gross.

 

[Cassius.]

^^^^^^

When players actually learn how to sit on a life lead, it's going to blow. All we can do for now is take advantage of garbage Sheik players LOL

To me, that's not even being smart. That seriously should be common sense. It seems like there was some huge disconnect between Brawl sense and Smash 4. If you have the lead, if you're in an advantage state at all, don't go in...you don't need to. Bowser can't force anything out of Sheik lol

There are ways for Bowser to combat Sheik that Big Sean listed, but Sheik really does not have to do anything. She doesn't even need to be in those situations half of the time lol

 

[MrEh]

It really blows when Sheik can just throw needles, run away, and do short hop aerials in your face. If you lag at any point, you get hit, grabbed, and juggled for free.

You basically cannot punish spaced Sheik aerials on block, even with Fortress OoS. The only way to beat it is to pre-emptively hit her out of them. (good luck with that) And when you do start throwing out preemptive moves, and you miss or Sheik throws out an empty aerial instead, you get punished for free. It's super dumb.

It's not the same like fighting Diddy or Rosa. At least Bowser can box against those characters and actually protect himself. Not only is Bowser forced to approach in the Sheik matchup, something we all know he struggles at, but he's also incapable of really boxing with Sheik either. It's really terrible.

It's still not as bad as Luigi though. Luigi is true utter terror.

 

[Cassius.]

I've been starting to just time out Luigis whenever possible. That MU isn't even worth putting effort into. If I ever get the life lead, I just run away. It's obviously easier said than done, but I just do it whenever possible. It's so ****ing stupid.

You have to treat it like a less extreme ICs. The rewards he gets off of grabs, despite how bad his mobility and traction is is just way, way, way too high. And his dash grab out of a walk/neutral state is actually ridiculous, so it doesn't even matter how bad his walk/run speed is.

A lot of people tend to under emphasize his good traits, and some people say he isn't top 5 based on results or whatever, but in the current meta he still is extremely effective. It's WAY too easy to scrub someone out with him LOL

 

[Zigsta]

Luigi only has a slight advantage over us, in my opinion. His camping isn't nearly as effective as Sheik's. Sure, it's really lame, but it's nowhere near as frustrating as an intelligent Sheik.

 

[Hitman JT]

You can out-box Luigi. Just channel your inner Mayweather and you'll be good.

But you won't touch a good Sheik.

 

[Shök]

Nothing but Luigi, Mario, Ness, and Sheik at my locals. Lol.

 

[Jerodak]

Thanks for the input guys. It may end up being a dead end but I've decided to start putting more time into cracking Bowser's worst/most annoying match-ups. I'll see if there might be anything interesting. Unfortunately, anything I come up with for now will be largely theoretical and will likely need testing. If there's a particular match someone would like me to lab up let me know.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ J Jerodak I'd greatly appreciate Lucas. It's mostly DI information, especially after a d-throw.

 

[Jerodak]

@ J Jerodak I'd greatly appreciate Lucas. It's mostly DI information, especially after a d-throw.

That may take some time, but I do know a few guys that offered to help me lab up that match when he was announced. Once I'm able to collaborate with them I'll see what I can find.

UPDATE: So based on everyone's input, it appears that in order to improve Bowser's chances, at least one of two things will be necessary.

1) Find reliable methods to get in.
2) Find ways to capitalize really hard once we do.

I don't have a lot of good answers for the first one yet, I know that needles aren't really plus on hit until later percents. I also know that they are kinda laggy when thrown, especially if it's a low charge.

However, there may be a bit more potential, for the time being, in the second option. So here are some numbers for you. Keep in mind that all K.O tests were done on Final destination. The ledge K.O is done as close to the ledge as possible with the cpu set to stop.


Shiek forced tech percentages:
Jab combo: 8-32%
Raw jab 2: 13-37%
F-tilt: 0-29%
D-tilt 1: 21-34%
D-tilt 2: 40-56%
F-air: 16-33%
B-air: 13-35%


Up throw combos:
F-air: 0-100% (K.O from ledge at 70%)
Up-air: 0-56% (I've gotten this at 60 a few times but it's probably frame perfect. Even 56% is kinda tricky. On FD this will start to K.O at around 69%)

Up-air traps:
Turns out up-air can do some really neat stuff. If you hit with it while landing, you can pop Shiek up into the air which actually forces her to play a mix-up in Bowser's favor. The earliest this could work is at 5-9% but only if shiek is mashing. However, starting at 10% it gets interesting. She can't hit you with n-air because it's too slow and just crashes into the ground, she can't land fast enough to get any of her ground options to work, (even shield will be too slow) and if she tries to bouncing fish away then you can cover it with up-tilt or b-air if she goes behind you or just chase it if she b-reverses. She can opt to jump, but at the cost of her mid-air jump and much of her mix-up potential in the air as a result. I took a quick look at the same set-up at 30% as well, it's much of the same, she's just a little higher so she has more time to get aerials out. It's alright though, because Bowser is actually plus on hit and she will be too high. I will do some more testing later on, but I thought this might be good to share so everyone could try it out. I will continue updating as new developments occur. ( :

Did some further testing, may be good to start these at 15% instead of 10 since at 11-14% the N-air can hit you. But you have time to shield it so I guess it doesn't matter.

 

[MrEh]

You can out-box Luigi. Just channel your inner Mayweather and you'll be good.

Those run speed buffs aren't just for show.

ha

 

[miniada]

-3
-2
-1
0
+ 1
+ 2
any questions please ask

 

[Cassius.]

Three tiers of difficulty is not enough to group 53 characters in, man.

Falcon, Pits, Pikachu, Mario, Peach and Samus are closer to even than they are to being "bad", but that is the problem with arbitrary grouping like that. You can't group -1s and -2s together like that, especially in this game where factoring in rage and other stupid mechanics actually matter.

Ganondorf is not even. Like I said before, you have no business losing that MU if you play it properly. Easy +1.

ALSO: SHULK IS NOWHERE NEAR EVEN. If any Bowser loses that MU I am literally disowning you.

 

[miniada]

Three tiers of difficulty is not enough to group 53 characters in, man.

Falcon, Pits, Pikachu, Mario, Peach and Samus are closer to even than they are to being "bad", but that is the problem with arbitrary grouping like that. You can't group -1s and -2s together like that, especially in this game where factoring in rage and other stupid mechanics actually matter.

Ganondorf is not even. Like I said before, you have no business losing that MU if you play it properly. Easy +1.

ALSO: SHULK IS NOWHERE NEAR EVEN. If any Bowser loses that MU I am literally disowning you.

Yeah your right I should edit this and put -1 -2 -3 and all that stuff also why is everyone saying ness is even same thing with villager and how does he lose to shulk

 

[Cassius.]

I've never heard anyone say Ness is even. I don't play against Ness players often so I don't know. The PK Fire gimmick isn't enough to really warrant it being even, and Ness' juggle ability is kind of annoying as well.

Who says that? There are only 5 people who actually play Bowser (well). Don't listen to what everyone says lol

Villager isn't *that* bad. Bowling ball edgeguards are pretty much a non-factor since Up-B timing can clash with it. Villager doesn't do enough damage with pot shots from his aerials, and I do think that everyone is playing villager incorrectly anyway. His damage output via camping is garbage. He's more suited for pressure instead of what everyone else attempts to do. He can try to play for a timeout, but we match anything we get hit by from him running away or setting up with one hit. I think the Duck Hunt MU is more difficult.

I worded it badly--what I meant to say that if any Bowser loses against a Shulk player, provided they are on an equal level, I will be disappointed. I'm 1000% certain Bowser is +1 on Shulk.

 

[Hitman JT]

Ness isn't a problem. If you actually play patiently and don't run around the stage like a headless koopa then you'll never get caught by a stray PK Fire. Those take 1000 frames to come out, and are easily powershielded + punished if you're close enough. Other than that, Bowser can keep him out fairly easily. I've straight up beaten his dash attack with a jab many times. If it's not even then it's no worse than a 55:45 in Ness' favor....which is still pretty damn even.

 

[Cassius.]

I see. It really does go without saying that you should be playing patiently and shouldn't be running around the stage like an idiot anyway.

Can that be the standard for all Bowser players? Too many people end up losing to themselves lmao it's so disgusting to watch.

 

[miniada]

I've never heard anyone say Ness is even. I don't play against Ness players often so I don't know. The PK Fire gimmick isn't enough to really warrant it being even, and Ness' juggle ability is kind of annoying as well.

Who says that? There are only 5 people who actually play Bowser (well). Don't listen to what everyone says lol

Villager isn't *that* bad. Bowling ball edgeguards are pretty much a non-factor since Up-B timing can clash with it. Villager doesn't do enough damage with pot shots from his aerials, and I do think that everyone is playing villager incorrectly anyway. His damage output via camping is garbage. He's more suited for pressure instead of what everyone else attempts to do. He can try to play for a timeout, but we match anything we get hit by from him running away or setting up with one hit. I think the Duck Hunt MU is more difficult.

I worded it badly--what I meant to say that if any Bowser loses against a Shulk player, provided they are on an equal level, I will be disappointed. I'm 1000% certain Bowser is +1 on Shulk.

I edited my previous post it might be a bit more accurate now

 

[Cassius.]

Shulk IMO is +1, not -1 and I have extremely serious doubts that Ike is +2 lol. But, this is your list, so yeah.

 

[miniada]

Shulk IMO is +1, not -1 and I have extremely serious doubts that Ike is +2 lol. But, this is your list, so yeah.

Bowser has a very confusing matchup spread in my opinion a lot of people say charecters like are bad because projectiles but it's dead even bowser can beat out his projectiles with his tilts jr can barely ko you and you can gimp him but he can combo you and gimp you as well you can punish him he can punish you 50:50
also shulk I'm going to edit I remember reading bowser does well in that matchup but when making this i was thinking about it and thought it said shulk does well I did more research after that and yeah its 55:45
I'm actually making this
with my phone so I put ike in +2 buy aciddent cause I was going to fast sorry about that
samus might be even bowser can clash with her projectiles and she will have a hard time getting the kill I'm not 100 sure if it's 50:50 but I could be wrong and I could be in favor of

Ness isn't a problem. If you actually play patiently and don't run around the stage like a headless koopa then you'll never get caught by a stray PK Fire. Those take 1000 frames to come out, and are easily powershielded + punished if you're close enough. Other than that, Bowser can keep him out fairly easily. I've straight up beaten his dash attack with a jab many times. If it's not even then it's no worse than a 55:45 in Ness' favor....which is still pretty damn even.

Can bowser deal with ness when Hes getting combod

 

[S_B]

Both Shulk and Ness aren't that bad because both of them either need to try to wait Bowser out or approach.

Shulk has no projectiles at all and both of Ness' require a frame commitment that can be severely punished if he tries at the wrong time. Shulk's Nairs and Bairs can be annoying, but it's still nothing that can't be beaten by patience.

 

[Jerodak]

@ Zigsta mind doing an update to that preliminary list? I'm pretty sure some of those match-ups can be shifted around.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

...I didn't even have the guile to not skim through the 50+ characters. I was just, liek, "uhhhh we dont have a horrendabad mu against Sheik".

 

[Jerodak]

...I didn't even have the guile to not skim through the 50+ characters. I was just, liek, "uhhhh we dont have a horrendabad mu against Sheik".

Really? Why not?

 

[Deleted member 189823]

We can retaliate, assuming we don't purposely let ourselvse become The Sandbag 2.0. Yes, Sheik combos us to hell and forth. But she reaaally can't kill. She just can't. And when you're Bowser, that doesn't make it any better for her. I find it's similiar to Lucario's MU against him/her/it/***** (barring the fact we lack a projectile) considering we get super benefitted from Rage (Side B may very well kill at 70-80 when we live long enough). But to all of this, am I just handwaving the fact that Sheik combos us HARD? No, of course not. But I do think you can do something to not constantly end up like that. Jab/F-Tilts spaces us away from her Grab, Up-B can potentially punish her F-Airs (I'm not sure this works 100%, so someone correct me on this).

tl;dr: Sheik not killing until 180 is actually a big deal. That alone should warrant a...not- -3. Needles aren't even a big deal...

 

[Cassius.]

Have you ever heard the wonderful tale about sitting on a life lead?

What about having superb frame data and needles that are almost ******** to deal with?

What about the fact that Bowser really has nothing Sheik should be afraid of, even when he's sitting with rage? It's Sheik, man.

Seriously, does anyone understand this concept? Once you're in the lead, there is no reason in the world why you need to approach. The game is yours to lose. This is reflected in this MU. Sheik gets the damage she can get, when she can. Then it becomes Bowser's game of trying to catch the best character in the game.

It seems like almost every Bowser player who hasn't played a either really good Sheik or a really good player just sees it as "yeah Sheik combos you and then rage happens." Yes, we get rage. But, how in the world are you going to hit Sheik?

It's not unwinnable because this game is just set that way for some reason, and a large amount of (Sheik) players are still bad and approach when they really don't have to. But trust me when I say it's not how you may think it is.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

"Cassius", did you know you just so happened to join on my birthdate!?

 

[Cassius.]

I don't know how to respond to that without sounding like I don't care lol

 

[S_B]

tl;dr: Sheik not killing until 180 is actually a big deal. That alone should warrant a...not- -3. Needles aren't even a big deal...

Eh, the three big problems there are...

1. Sheik forces us to approach. She can needle camp us all damn day if she likes.

2. Sheik can punish pretty much ANYTHING we do. I've seen Sheik players punish Bowsers on an ftilt whiff from halfway across the stage. Sheik's just THAT fast. I swear I've also seen her run in for a grab in between Bowser's jabs... I've also seen Falcon and Sonic do this, but those two don't have one of the best projectiles in the game and they HAVE to approach.

3. 50/50 on down throw means Bowser won't live to 180 against a good Sheik.

And good luck landing kill confirms on a patient, campy Sheik. :\

 

[Deleted member 189823]

It seems like almost every Bowser player who hasn't played a either really good Sheik or a really good player just sees it as "yeah Sheik combos you and then rage happens." Yes, we get rage. But, how in the world are you going to hit Sheik?

Human error, my friend. That is all! Okay, not really. Okay, yes- maybe really. MK players in Brawl have said, "well i can hit u once and then go under the stage for the other 7-8 minutes". Has anyone actually bought that? The sheer fact that we're not fighting Brawl ICs makes this a lot more probable for us to thrive on simple mistakes the other is going to make. It's not a question of if, but rather, when.

Remind me of this moment when Mr.R double JV 3-stocks me...if I ever get the chance to face him.

Eh, the three big problems there are...

1. Sheik forces us to approach. She can needle camp us all damn day if she likes.

2. Sheik can punish pretty much ANYTHING we do. I've seen Sheik players punish Bowsers on an ftilt whiff from halfway across the stage. Sheik's just THAT fast. I swear I've also seen her run in for a grab in between Bowser's jabs...

3. Sheik's 50/50 on down throw means Bowser won't live to 180 against a good Sheik.

And good luck landing kill confirms on a patient, campy Sheik. :\

I used to think needles were awful, but I just realized about being smart when landing (it's when I most got punished with them). Otherwise, if you're across the stage, just shield. I can't very well deny the 2nd one, I'll just have to see it for myself...otherwise, just try to be more careful to how you throw out moves (not saying you as in you, just in general). Regarding the D-Throw, are you referring to it's trajectory being 50/50 on whether or not it combos us to U-Air?

 

[S_B]

I used to think needles were awful, but I just realized about being smart when landing (it's when I most got punished with them). Otherwise, if you're across the stage, just shield. I can't very well deny the 2nd one, I'll just have to see it for myself...otherwise, just try to be more careful to how you throw out moves (not saying you as in you, just in general). Regarding the D-Throw, are you referring to it's trajectory being 50/50 on whether or not it combos us to U-Air?

Sadly, if Sheik baits out ANYTHING, it's probably going to be a punish.

And yeah, the Dthrow will either be Uair or a vanish startup kill. I've been the victim of that and the vanish startup reliably kills Bowser WAY sooner than 180%.

Sheik just has so many safe, reliable ways to rack damage on Bowser while all Bowser has is fortress OoS on a powershielded Fair, and that's if the Sheik player is lousy and doesn't space well.

I guess we also have this when Sheik is recovering to the ledge with vanish to catch that precious 1 frame...

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Yeah, Sheik's Up-B definitely kills. But it also has a pretty considerable startup lag. And as much for them as for us, it's a read as to whether or not they get the kill. It's not just to DI away (or up or towards) and airdodge, we can also jump out the way.

I feel like I'm being a bit heavy-handed with what I said, I should play Sheik more (I did, plenty). I don't claim to be great at the MU, but I should check to see how I do against our Top 2 (a pretty good Sheik main, that doesn't mine camping/spamming when he needs to).


EDIT: That was a cute video, Smash Bro.

 

[S_B]

Yeah, Sheik's Up-B definitely kills. But it also has a pretty considerable startup lag. And as much for them as for us, it's a read as to whether or not they get the kill. It's not just to DI away (or up or towards) and airdodge, we can also jump out the way.

I feel like I'm being a bit heavy-handed with what I said, I should play Sheik more (I did, plenty). I don't claim to be great at the MU, but I should check to see how I do against our Top 2 (a pretty good Sheik main, that doesn't mine camping/spamming when he needs to).

Sometimes you can jump out, but Bowser is extra easy to hit because of his size. :\

Now, don't get me wrong, it's nowhere near as bad as how it was in Melee or Brawl. Still, Sheik is one of the best in the game for a whole slew of reasons and Bowser's big ol' hurtbox just makes him that much bigger of a target.

Though, the fact that Sakurai and co have been giving competitive buffs to characters (ie things that give characters an advantage in ways that casual players will NEVER be able to exploit) should give us hope.

They seem to have figured out that hoo-haas are excellent for making characters stronger in comp play while doing nothing for casuals. Maybe Bowser's kill hoo-haa is right around the corner...

EDIT: That was a cute video, Smash Bro.

If only that was our typical result against Sheiks...

 

[Zigsta]

@ Zigsta mind doing an update to that preliminary list? I'm pretty sure some of those match-ups can be shifted around.

Do you want me to update the spread I came up with and put it in the OP?

 

[Jerodak]

@ Zigsta if it's not inconvenient.

 

[Zigsta]

@ Zigsta if it's not inconvenient.

Sure thing. I'll put it together sometime this week.

 

[TheGreatShal]

R.O.B's been a huge pain as of late. Most of the good ROBs I've faced are super smart with their gyros, and then for most of the match I'm playing dodge the same one gyro while recieving a lot of damage for it. If I get past the gyros, they just Robo beam me, and then it's back to square one. They also love to grab when I get close. Any idea on how to approach?

 

[Jerodak]

@ TheGreatShal Hi, it's been a while! I've made a post on this before, but to summarize. You want to control the gyro by either dodging or grabbing it. R.o.b's projectile game revolves almost entirely around it. Make sure you never shield it if you don't have to.

Once the gyro is out of the way, the beam is reactable and can only be used every four seconds.