Carrot Me Bro!: The Bowser Match-up Topic

[Kooky Koopa]

Hey all

I am in great need of help when it comes to two particular matchups: Zero Suit Samus and Toon Link. I played two brilliant players on Smash Ladder today and although I was able to take some from Toon Link, Zero Suit Samus felt like a near impossible matchup.

First, ZSS. How am I to approach her? This player would short hop tether and space with air attacks and if I were struck by even one she would grab me. Short hop f-airs didn't seem to work and walking left it relatively simple for her to poke me and create and opening for herself. She would also mix up her short hops with some stun gun shots. The air juggles are part and parcel of playing Bowser, but in this one, I felt like nearly everything she did was unapproachable and every tiny mistake I did was punished with extreme prejudice.

Furthermore, a key issue I had was while I was in the air, she would constantly retreat slowly and once I'm after her and again leave an opening, she would turn and either do another grab or a tether into a grab and more damage comes my way. Granted my landing was a bit too d-air filled in the set but even if I had fast falled, I don't think that may have helped.

So what should I or can I do in the neutral to face off against ZSS?

****

The same question is slightly extended to Toon Link as well but in this case, he was far too quick to grab and his bombs,boomerang and air attacks would keep me out. Unlike ZSS, I was able to get in the odd time and jumping forward then hopping back mid air seemed to help considerably in avoiding the projectiles, but getting in on him consistently and safely was another matter entirely.

I understand catching the bombs can help but I don't have that down yet unfortunately. Perfect shielding is the part and parcel of this MU, but similar to the ZSS player, this Tlink ensured once I was hit by a bomb or boomerang, he was in on me immediately and striking out with follow ups, tether, or even some smash attacks.

So how should I approach this character as well who is always hopping and running away out of reach and bombarding me with bombs, boomerangs and the infrequent arrow?

****

One final note I'd like to say is I attempted to use spaced f-airs in the neutral in both matchups but I quickly realized that this was a recipe for disaster. What should I use for spacing in the neutral too?

I considered much too late perhaps running OoS Jabs may have helped more, but in the case of Tlink the bombs would launch into me and ZSS I'm not sure if my fists out range her grab. While I am aware both of these matchups stack up poorly for Bowser, I'd still be very appreciative of any advice in how I can at least turn these matchups from nightmarish to somewhat manageable.

 

[EarthBound18]

Does Bowser have a good match up against Captain Falcon? I always seem to have little problem with him.

 

[trombonophone99]

@ Kooky Koopa I haven't fought enough good ZSSes or Tinks to know how to handle those matchups. I'll be sure to look for some to fight tho.

@ EarthBound18 I always thought Captain was an unfavorable matchup. His speed allows him to punish EVERYTHING you do. I'll be sure to research this MU as well.

 

[Big Sean]

I always thought that CF was an even matchup. He has to go IN against you, which is where bowser has the easiest time. You read a grab? Jab 1. he's going to do a short hop aerial approach? fortress OOS. He recovers at all ever? Ledge trump and he's dead at 50%. This is almost a dream matchup except for the fact that he can juggle you super hard and also punish you recovery pretty well.

 

[trombonophone99]

@ Big Sean Hm, I must have not been playing patient enough then. I havent tried reading a grab with jab either, so that will be useful. Thanks!

 

[MagiusNecros]

I always thought that CF was an even matchup. He has to go IN against you, which is where bowser has the easiest time. You read a grab? Jab 1. he's going to do a short hop aerial approach? fortress OOS. He recovers at all ever? Ledge trump and he's dead at 50%. This is almost a dream matchup except for the fact that he can juggle you super hard and also punish you recovery pretty well.

Easier said then done.

 

[EarthBound18]

Easier said then done.

I versed decent Falcons and I never once said "Oh this is tough" I feel comfortable fighting him maybe cause all the FG falcons I easily knock out. But the Matchups that seriously annoy me are

Sonic, Little Mac, and KingDeDeDe.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Most FG Falcon's suck. I have come across a rare good one or two that perfect pivot, hip hop empty hop and completely confuse me with erratic movement and then I lose.

 

[trombonophone99]

@ EarthBound18 NEVER use FG as a measurement of matchup knowledge or anything pertaining to data on a highly competitive level. Simply put most tourney goers and Anther's Ladder players just understand the game better and are a more reliable way to gain matchup knowledge. FG is just too unreliable lol.

Even then, with Anther's Ladder you still have to take into account wifi blues and all.

 

[Big Sean]

Just to be clear here, I'm talking about high level in person Falcon's here. Yes you're right that good falcon's empty hop and have tricky movement options here, but nothing about that is unique to falcon. If you are scared of empty hopping AND short hop neutral air AND dash grab try pivot grabbing it beats or trades with all of those. Your right that good players can be hard and tricky with their movement options, but that's because they are good players, not because they play falcon. A good pikachu, or sheik, or diddy, or mario, or dr. mario etc etc can do the same things.

 

[MagiusNecros]

And then I get spiked because I am the biggest thing ever.

 

[Big Sean]

Spiking is an interesting one. Fortress of course has hitboxes, so if they plan on spiking you and not getting hit they need to hit a very specific part of the hurtbox.

YOMI LEVEL 1: master this http://smashboards.com/threads/bowsers-whirling-fortress-boost.391070/ this almost always works, at least the first time they try spiking. Even falcon's that have bowser experience probably don't know the real height that bowser can recover from if you're really trying to nail that ledge snap.

YOMI LEVEL 2: ok so now you've conditioned them to expect that really really low recovery while basically hugging the stage. Just press up b sooner than they expect and hit them.

The mixup is powerful enough that most falcons will just give up after a while. Of course you still may get spiked but it very rarely happens to me anymore. Make sure to keep mixing up your recoveries still of course. Also there is a fairly unlikely chance that you are just so near the blast zone that you have to just immediately up + b and you can't mix up your recovery. If that happens the best hope you have is to aim for the corner of the ledge snap box that's furthest horizontally and lowest vertically from the stage. You're probably ****ed in those scenarios but it's not a huge deal because you're probably around 150% anyway if you got hit that hard.

 

[Cassius.]

Yeah, the mark of a seasoned Bowser player and Smash player in general is one that is able to avoid or curtail most situations that others would probably be spiked in. Like Big Sean said, you have to change your air trajectory and change your up-b timing to mess with your opponent's spike attempts. It's actually not that hard. It's more difficult on the spiker's end to actually do that because you have to predict the point at which the victim (us) will or will not jump/use up-b. And if we aren't hit directly in the center, the up-b hitbox will intercept it. It's a lot easier to just go for a stage spike instead of a direct down air or whatever.

Don't forget that you can also recover high. Combos/positional deficits aside, if you have any opportunity to not have to deal with that, you should probably take it.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Just checked the Fox boards' MU thread and the two write-ups representing us are a bit lacking. So I'm guessing none of us have any Fox MU experience in Sm4sh? I actually haven't faced one locally since Sm4sh's release so I don't have anything to say.

 

[trombonophone99]

I haven't played a good Fox offline yet, but I may be able to fish for one this coming tourney and steal a few friendlies.

If necessary I could provide some thoughts based on those. I have played some good Foxes online as well, but ofc offline xp is best xp.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I couldn't think of anything thoughtful to say. I've faced two Foxes at local tournaments, but one was pretty bad, and the other I only consider better because he attempted to Jab 1+2 lock me, and I Jab > Bowser Bombed him. The jab infinite was a brand new discovery for Fox at the time, so I had to explain to him why it didn't work on Bowser after our set. I fought more Foxes on Smash Ladder, and that's where I started feeling sick of the MU. Fox forces the approach with us by running and firing lasers, And he easily matches our solid ground game with more speed and setups options when he can come from the air just as well.

He is a lightweight though, and has pitiful range. Early kills and winning trades on moves is nice, but I don't have any bright ideas for fighting a Fox that does know what Bowser has in Smash 4. Dsmash to catch Fox illusions onto the stage, dunking incoming Fire Foxes with Dair or a well timed Bair are consistent. Other than edgeguards, we don't have those "50/50" options that people talk about where our attacks work or reset the neutral. They work, or we eat a punish because they anticipated the move or had the frame data to punish on reaction. Even Pivot grab feels lackluster because Fox can take to the air with speedy aerials without us being able to react with anything else, we'd already be in the middle of a pivot at that point.

That all said, I read their thread and I'm glad they take Bowser seriously. I remember their old MU threads, and they had us pegged as a 80:20 Fox Advantage. Get real. Try 60:40 at best. You're not Shiek.

 

[Hitman JT]

Fox doesn't have to respect Bowser. He's easier to punish than Sheik but he's still a pain in the arse.

 

[trombonophone99]

Does Bowser even have 80:20 disadvantageous matchups? I can definitely understand 70:30 against Sheik (which so far, from my experience, is only barely 70:30) but I feel like Bowser has that kinda of power that can cheese any matchup out of being 80:20.

 

[Big Sean]

The only matchup I currently see as maybe 80:20 is hammer sonic in customs.

 

[trombonophone99]

Good thing I don't play with customs cuz jank.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Custom Fox Tornado Up B is stupid. It can still even the heavies earlier then it should. Multihit and insane priority.

 

[trombonophone99]

good thing it's still hella gimpable. The online Fox I was talking about used that custom to recover, I daired on his head and didn't even have to suicide thanks to the multi-hit.

 

[Zigsta]

Just checked the Fox boards' MU thread and the two write-ups representing us are a bit lacking. So I'm guessing none of us have any Fox MU experience in Sm4sh? I actually haven't faced one locally since Sm4sh's release so I don't have anything to say.

I have a lot of experience from Larry, arguably the best Fox right now, but I never post on other character boards because the mentality is always "my character obliterates yours because theorycrafting."

 

[MrEh]

No one wants to think they lose to Bowser.

Also Larry cheats. Fox is not supposed to be that good. lol

 

[Zigsta]

No one wants to think they lose to Bowser.

Also Larry cheats. Fox is not supposed to be that good. lol

His Fox is nuts. I take dumps on literally every other Fox, but his Fox is just something else.

 

[Big Sean]

Does anyone have any ideas on how to DI diddy's throws? Specifically post patch and both up + down throws.

 

[EarthBound18]

How do you guys fight KingDeDeDe? I think the match up is very poor because KingD3 out ranges bowser and his gordos are annoying to deal with. Plus he KO's early ignoring Bowser's weight.

 

[CeeV]

How do you guys fight KingDeDeDe? I think the match up is very poor because KingD3 out ranges bowser and his gordos are annoying to deal with. Plus he KO's early ignoring Bowser's weight.

D3 is tricky. The gordos certainly can be a bit of a nuisance, but I just send 'em back with side tilts or short hop fairs. If I'm getting camped with them on a flat stage like FD, I just use the run ->shield method to approach, wait for him to react, then get my combo started with a quick up-B oos.

 

[MagiusNecros]

How do you guys fight KingDeDeDe? I think the match up is very poor because KingD3 out ranges bowser and his gordos are annoying to deal with. Plus he KO's early ignoring Bowser's weight.

I honestly just switch to Ganon. But I would use Ftilt if he wants to Gordo you to death.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Dededes are used to being able to recover over the ledge with their heavy Up B landing. Show them how Bowser can disrespect this option with Usmash.

Dedede's running speed, air speed, and attacks are too slow to really have trouble working around. He may have greater range and disjoints than us, but general defensive approaches will get you in safely. Gordos may seem intimidating, but they can't get past a shield. If he starts charging Down B, you can safely stop him with Fire Breath before he gets close. He's got some trouble landing just like you, so keep the pressure on when he's coming down.

Dedede can be tricky, but the player has to put in a lot of work to beat Bowser.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

To all Bowsers out there, the Rosalina sub-forum has a match-up discussion thread all set up to analyze Rosalina's match-up against Bowser. Got anything to share for the Rosalina vs. Bowser match-up? Then head to the following thread link...

http://smashboards.com/threads/405498/

In terms of the rules, be sure to go to the directory thread.

http://smashboards.com/threads/404194/

 

[Jerodak]

Personally, when dealing with D3's that like to chuck a lot of Gordos, I find that it's important to not stand too far away from them, there is a range where you should be able to reactively Fair or Ftilt the gordos with relative ease and D3 won't be able to bounce it back at you. It helps to pay attention and try to notice the sounds and the animation where he reaches for the Gordo to toss it up or when he swings the hammer instead of trying to react to the gordo itself. Eventually, once you've shown that you can deflect gordos in this way consistently, the D3 will usually switch tactics, but if they don't feel free to keep getting free damage.

It also helps not to make too many unneeded movements, don't be a statue, but try to avoid doing anything that'll leave you in a bad position as well.

 

[Corgian]

I got in a ton of friendlies at my weekly yesterday, and learned some new matchups, and some new information about an old one.


Olimar

After getting completely bodied by Myran's apprentice, CPT, in tourney I realized I had an extreme deficit in the matchup. I took an Olimar to friendlies for about an hour, and realized why the matchup is so janky. When I play against projectile characters, I'm very used to playing patiently, minding my spacing and overall playing safe to avoid racking up too much damage from projectiles. THIS MINDSET WILL GET YOU KILLED AGAINST OLIMAR. Olimar has absolutely no incentive to ever come in—even when it comes down to securing the kill—and since his throws are his b&b, defensive play hurts you more than it helps. Pikmin do not function like normal projectiles as only the purples have an actual hitbox. As such shielding against them actually puts you at higher risk since perfect shielding them is essentially nonexistent. The way you play this matchup is staying directly on Olimar's face, for as much of the match as possible. Up close, the pikmin no longer matter, as our big normals will both hit olimar and subsequently kill the pikmin as well. Auto-cancel Klaw into anything is great for this matchup. Depending on the Olimar you play, also changes how safe some moves are. When Olimar doesn't have any pikmin in the air, he is pretty much free as all but his nair requires a pikmin to use. Despite this, he will more often aim to get back into neutral safely than trying to land offensively. Another thing to note: the pikmin increase the duration of your hitboxes, which is weird to get used to at first, but can be helpful in the long run as our wall can get a little bigger due to this effect.

So, for quick reference:

DO:

• Stay close and personal
• Play offensively
• See about following him in the air
• Auto-cancel Klaw follow-ups
• Opt for spot-dodges over shield, if you need to avoid something
• Take advantage of the duration increase of hitboxes, should be covered in pikmin

DON'T:

• Play defensively
• Let him get out of reach
• Try shielding the pikmin
• Fight the pikmin

Wii Fit

Nothing really changed here. Its still careful perfect shielding and big normals. Wii Fit is difficult to punish on ledge because of soccer ball, so you're better off not committing, waiting until soccer ball comes towards you, perfect shield and then get an action in. It's all about patience and finding an opening. Nothing very matchup specific other than the soccer ball from ledge, and watching out for her weird kill moves. Never be above Wii Fit if you can avoid it, and don't try landing offensively, not that you really should be anyway considering how hard it is for Bowser to land.


And finally, the most interesting thing I learned last night


Villager

This matchup still sucks. That being said, if a villager is under the ledge on Smashville and has his balloons out, D-tilt will actually pop them through the stage. It works when the scoops of D-tilt are right above the balloons. Hitboxes are weird.

 

[Big Sean]

One thing I have trouble with is approaching an olimar who has their pivot grab on lock. It can cover almost every approach option you do, it's so gigantic.

 

[arcticfox_14]

So I just lost winner's finals to a Cap. More than anything I blame his piston jab covering all my ledge getup options besides roll, which he then knows I know.

How should I deal with it if I see him again in grand finals once the loser's bracket catches up?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

So I just lost winner's finals to a Cap. More than anything I blame his piston jab covering all my ledge getup options besides roll, which he then knows I know.

How should I deal with it if I see him again in grand finals once the loser's bracket catches up?

If he sits like a doof at the ledge holding A, you might be able to reach him with an Uair or Fair by letting go of the ledge and double jumping toward him. But it's not very effective. Plus if you miss, it makes you have to regrab the ledge where he can do more dangerous things to you. Against Falcon, you want to spend as little of the match as possible near the ledge unless he's the one recovering.

 

[arcticfox_14]

If he sits like a doof at the ledge holding A, you might be able to reach him with an Uair or Fair by letting go of the ledge and double jumping toward him. But it's not very effective. Plus if you miss, it makes you have to regrab the ledge where he can do more dangerous things to you. Against Falcon, you want to spend as little of the match as possible near the ledge unless he's the one recovering.

Thanks for the tips Zap, my confidence was pretty down after that loss. I did end up beating a villager I was scared of in LF and played the Cap again in GF, but lost 2-3 with a veeery close last stock. I'll post the replays in the video topic. Still had fun and learned a LOT about the matchup today!

 

[Big-Cat]

D3 is tricky. The gordos certainly can be a bit of a nuisance, but I just send 'em back with side tilts or short hop fairs. If I'm getting camped with them on a flat stage like FD, I just use the run ->shield method to approach, wait for him to react, then get my combo started with a quick up-B oos.

Get him with Up B at almost every opportunity possible. This matchup is nigh impossible to win, IMO, in netplay. You'll get hit with stuff you swear you dodged.

 

[Zigsta]

Olimar is free! Stop losing!!

 

[anaglyphix]

any tips against lucas, roy, ryu?