Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[SteelRhydon]

What can Marth do in neutral vs Fox on FoD and Yoshi's Story? You'd sometimes say that DD/Dashbacking isn't as effective in these stages due to the lower room.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Regarding positioning my attacks too far away from Peach, I assume you mean primarily when I jump aerial such as trying to fair peach's aerials. I think I find myself at that spot because I'm covering the furthest approach option she can do. When she undershoots her aerial, then I obviously whiff then get punished since I'm too far away.

If I were to try to call out Peach when she undershoots, I would need to take a little bit of risk by dashing/jumping closer then fair? Or simply jump at my default range but just not commit and try to play the next position?

You would need to be closer first, because unless she doesn't react to you jumping in from really far away, she can see you coming and just DA or WD back or something. There is some risk in this, but there's more risk in always dashing back if she gets closer imo.

What can Marth do in neutral vs Fox on FoD and Yoshi's Story? You'd sometimes say that DD/Dashbacking isn't as effective in these stages due to the lower room.

Yes, so Dtilt and Fair/Nair become more viable then. Remember, Fox also cannot dash back much on those stages. Dash/run forward into retreating rising Fair can also work because you either lose minimal or no stage when doing it.

 

[SteelRhydon]

What about JC Grabs in these small stages? I imagine its threat range is better there with the smaller room and if the Fox isn't conditioned to jump.

Also, in the Marth ditto, what's the general flowchart to combo Marth out of Uthrow? When do you use it instead of Fthrow?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Sure you can do that sometimes, but I wouldn't say it's a primary tool even then.

Uthrow is better when you get to like 30% because you can directly punish out of it then. Fthrow is better for tech chasing or pushing toward the edge otherwise. Once you get past like 60% Fthrow/Dthrow become better again.

 

[Agrathor3]

Hey PP do you know where I could find data preferably in like a hit box format of Marths ledge grab range? I'm trying to optimize my sweetspots a little. Also I'm loving the beard XD

 

[Dr Peepee]

LOL ty

And I think PPU may have done a video on it, I'd check there.

 

[Artic223]

Hey PP might be a dumb question but do questions have to be specifically from marth's side? are questions from another character's perespective fine?
I do understand that you're probably better at answering questions from Marth's perspective since you play him but just wondering

 

[Dr Peepee]

You can ask how to beat Marth questions here, or Falco-related questions in the Falco thread.

Honestly, I don't really mind answering questions for other characters and enjoy doing so, but given these are character-specific threads on this website it may not be the best for the others who read here.

Perhaps it is a better question for stream or one of my discord servers....unless I had some sort of general Smashboards QnA thread haha

 

[SteelRhydon]

I have a question regarding covering Marth's landing in the ditto. Assuming it's on FD, let's say I FH faired my opponent that DI'ed out at a high % suffering hitstun and is about to fall down and tech, but their hitstun goes away close to the ground before they could fall down. After I faired, I landed at a spot where dtilt tipper range can hit him with center stage, and they're in the air cornered near the ledge.

I would try to cover the landing with a Dtilt but they can DJ over it. Can I theoretically cover it with a Utilt after the Dtilt? Can they fair out of hitstun and catch my Dtlit?

I labbed to see if dtilt can outrange landing fair which it does but only by a very small amount. So it doesn't seem to exactly beat it. It's probably based on timing and fair drift but in general, I'm not exactly sure what exactly is the correct answer in this scenario I described.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I think Dtilt coming after the Fair can win if the Fair is a bit early or maybe anything but really late(even then may still be possible just hard). If the Fair is fully drifted back then it may not be possible. If you Dtilt in place or slightly move forward it's different than fully moving in a believe. Anyway, assuming they DJ and you could Dtilt, your Utilt won't reach them. You can Fair after missing Dtilt though, unless they full drift back.

I like either getting easier Dtilts or pressuring their landing. Given how close it is, it's very hard to deal with both strategies put together.

 

[SteelRhydon]

What are the best ways to KO Sheik? I find that she's much harder to KO than say, spacies/Marth/Falcon etc. I often have to rely more on putting her in uncomfortable positions to have a better chance of getting a read on her. And when Sheik recovers back on stage, Marth doesn't really have good answers to Amsah tech unless she's above 150%+ for a Utilt kill depending on the stage.

and since this is related, how would you go on about to edgeguard Sheik UpB once Marth reaches 100%+? since this is when neutral getup starts becoming unviable to do as soon as you hear the "poof" sound of Sheik UpB.

 

[Dr Peepee]

You KO Sheik by Ken combo'ing or up-b'ing before that point or Fair into Fsmash instead of KC. You also can juggle into KO, particularly with Utilt or FH/DJ Uair. You also KO by edgeguarding, which may be the most common, by using Bair, Fair/runoff Fair to hit Sheik out of her early up-B where she's vulnerable. If Sheik is close to you and up-B'ing, you can rising Nair to reversal her off the stage and go for a kill there for something easier, and you can often second hit Nair to clank with the poof if you're off a bit on timing. It's a complicated edgeguard, and really hard to gimp her, but once her percent is like 80+ it gets more reliable. You can also let her spotdodge for amsah tech then up-B or tipper if you want.

 

[SteelRhydon]

You KO Sheik by Ken combo'ing or up-b'ing before that point or Fair into Fsmash instead of KC. You also can juggle into KO, particularly with Utilt or FH/DJ Uair. You also KO by edgeguarding, which may be the most common, by using Bair, Fair/runoff Fair to hit Sheik out of her early up-B where she's vulnerable. If Sheik is close to you and up-B'ing, you can rising Nair to reversal her off the stage and go for a kill there for something easier, and you can often second hit Nair to clank with the poof if you're off a bit on timing. It's a complicated edgeguard, and really hard to gimp her, but once her percent is like 80+ it gets more reliable. You can also let her spotdodge for amsah tech then up-B or tipper if you want.

Where exactly Marth should be to nair a Sheik UpBing? You said rising nair but I'm not sure if you mean onstage or nair from ledge invincibility.

 

[Dr Peepee]

From edge, when Sheik goes through you.

 

[Zorcey]

How did you go about teaching yourself to love practice and analysis, rather than seeing them as things that you just kind of have to do?

Hope you’re well dude <3

 

[SteelRhydon]

I've recently had trouble combo'ing spacies off side platforms after uthrow, mainly in DL and BF where side platforms are high, like often I'd fail to react to their techs or I hit them with weak Uair which isn't good. How would you react to their techs on side platforms after uthrow?

I know that Fox and Falco start taking knockback from unstaled Uair at 20 and 21%, respectively so that's something to consider. I have difficulties below 20% because of that as well since Uair isn't really viable below 20% I think.

 

[Dr Peepee]

How did you go about teaching yourself to love practice and analysis, rather than seeing them as things that you just kind of have to do?

Hope you’re well dude <3

I practiced and analyzed because I had no choice, and because I loved the game and wanted to get better very badly.

Exercise kept my energy up.

I've recently had trouble combo'ing spacies off side platforms after uthrow, mainly in DL and BF where side platforms are high, like often I'd fail to react to their techs or I hit them with weak Uair which isn't good. How would you react to their techs on side platforms after uthrow?

I know that Fox and Falco start taking knockback from unstaled Uair at 20 and 21%, respectively so that's something to consider. I have difficulties below 20% because of that as well since Uair isn't really viable below 20% I think.

You can't tech chase them fully with Uair until 24% on Fox and like 27% on Falco on BF, so it'll be even higher on DL. If I throw earlier than that I try to do it as a mixup so they miss tech, or I hope they tech roll in so I can just Utilt/Fsmash/waveland grab it. If they DI away tech in place you may not even be able to get a punish depending on things.

 

[SteelRhydon]

You can't tech chase them fully with Uair until 24% on Fox and like 27% on Falco on BF, so it'll be even higher on DL. If I throw earlier than that I try to do it as a mixup so they miss tech, or I hope they tech roll in so I can just Utilt/Fsmash/waveland grab it. If they DI away tech in place you may not even be able to get a punish depending on things.

What are the 24% and 27% threshold based on?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Kadano's work. He determined that, at that percent, you can Uthrow and drift to cover tech roll but also FF to punish tech in place.

 

[Artic223]

Hi PP this might be kinda dumb but I have a question regarding Marth vs Jigglypuff's crouch
For the life of me I can't understand Marth's grab vs Puff because watching other marths it seems like sometimes they can grab the crouching puff but sometimes they miss and get rested, it even happens to Zain
How does that even work I am utterly confused

 

[Dr Peepee]

JC grab can be crouched always. Dash grab can whiff or can grab crouching Puff but it doesn't always reach far enough forward.

However, when Puff is in jumpsquat, Marth's grab still misses. So crouching and then jumping, or just jumping(or WD'ing) will help her avoid grab. But it's not exactly reliable because if they're wrong they could be in trouble.

 

[Kotastic]

Say I do a dash back vs Fox in expectation that they will approach, but I misread and they don't approach during my dash back timing.

I tend to have a "lost" dash dance after that where I dash dance in place a couple times hoping that they approach, but they have no intent beyond that. To reset, would you recommend shield stop (if that's necessary) jump back, or WD back/down dtilt?

I do want the dash dance to be connected to dtilt, but WD down is quite laggy (not always gonna get the chance to WD back), but I suppose I can make the group dash dance connected to that if they try to intercept.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Those are all fine choices. It really depends on what you wanna do. If you just wanna turn around, pivot jump and pivot WD down and just dashing forward again for however long would be your quickest ways to do so.

 

[Liquid_]

Versus Peach, I know the general rules are to fight ground-to-ground and air-to-air, but I'm having a hard time battling her in the air without a hard read. should I be reacting to her leaving the ground, then jump myself?

I watched games 4 & 5 in this set: https://vods.co/v/zvqhgc

And it looks like you are jumping in when you have a soft read on Armada's movement, is that accurate?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah it can be fine to jump if you think she might go into the air since she comes back down so quickly sometimes. Otherwise you'll need to space to grab or Dtilt or otherwise pressure her aerials. I think playing Peach air-to-ground can work, but not as a base strategy.

 

[Kotastic]

We discussed how I have the most trouble vs Fox when they camp a bit, then go in as I get impatient.

I think fundamentally, I'm usually playing a bait game to get them to approach, and then I counter their approach with my defense. I think I play this way because it feels like I get the best value off of playing Marth like that. However when the opponent camps, then obviously the bait will never work so I feel the need to approach. It's when they camp and guise their camping as a bait that tends to get me.

Stylistically, I tend to struggle most against the campy-baity type of opponents where they wait out my impatience then counter my approaches. I think you recommended to use movement to look like I will go in, and then I can counter hit their counter. Do you think generally it's the best value to continue baiting offensively, or call out their "camping" phase and just go in?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Some of it will be about what feels best to you. If you just want to play defense, then doing things that lead back into it are the first places to try because they feel most comfortable and can lead into more for you.

If you're too obvious though, then it won't matter how many ways you play defense. If the opponent knows you pretty much only play defense, it also won't matter too much. The reason people run in on m2k is not because they think he won't camp, but also because he has some approaching knowledge too.

 

[BoboKoz]

Hey PP,
Ive been looking at percentages for when to start pivot grabbing fox and falco. From what I have seen (please correct me if i'm wrong) people recommend to pivot at 16 with fox but I just don't understand why?

Is 16% the percent where a frame perfect pivot grab is possible? Or does fox being at 16% make reacting to slight di'ing behind and turn grabbing just not possible

Also, do you know what percent this is for falco?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I always thought pivoting started later on Fox, at 23-24%. For Falco this would be like 27%. The reason here is because it's possible but also because grab in place no longer works. I'm not sure why you would pivot grab so early or even if it's possible, but that is solvable with uncle punch I imagine.

 

[BoboKoz]

I always thought pivoting started later on Fox, at 23-24%. For Falco this would be like 27%. The reason here is because it's possible but also because grab in place no longer works. I'm not sure why you would pivot grab so early or even if it's possible, but that is solvable with uncle punch I imagine.

Does that mean that you can react to slight behind DI and turn grab up until you cant stand grab on no DI?

I'm just a bit confused because I see Marths pivot at lower percents for example (Zain Mango Grands BH9)
Also this chain grab guide by the Third Chair has this chart where it recommends to start pivot grabbing on no DI against Falco at 14%

Do they do this earlier because it avoids having to react to slight DI behind or do they do it because reacting is not possible?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Uh, the zain match you linked has him just turning around.

So, with slight DI behind, if they do a very specific angle then it will be literally indistinguishable between no DI. That is true. However, I think that's pretty rare and haven't seen it much/at all.

I honestly didn't know you could pivot regrab so early. The value of doing so would be that you can avoid having to figure out which side they go onto, but the risk is it's probably frame tight.

 

[Electroman]

Hey PP!

I finally got a chance to check out this legendary thread I've heard so much about and would like to express my appreciation for your consistency and helpfulness.

My question is regarding neutral: I know it can be hard to explain neutral and all of its moving parts in one Smashboards post, so I was wondering if you could point me in the right direction regarding resources that specifically tackle that part of the game. Whether it be older posts by yourself or others, videos, etc. I would really appreciate it.

For me personally, I find that I'm not focused well enough on my opponent in general, but this specifically includes the options they may use, their movement, and their habits. I have a hard time thinking about everything that my opponent may or may not do in a specific situation, and end up most of the time either dash dancing forever or going for a huge over commitment that either works or doesn't. Many players say to look at what they do and find an option that beats it, but it's so hard to do this mid-game. Any help is incredibly appreciated!

 

[BoboKoz]

Oh sorry the the pivot in the Zain clip was a little after the turn around.

But people that I usually play against have gotten into the habit of slight diing behind when I uthrow so Im trying to find some way to play arround that untill I get to a percent where i can pivot regrab consistently.

I'm looking at other marths and I see Zain and Kodorin use fthrow regrab (im geussing as a 50/50 between that and DI away and uthrowing) below 7% but after It knocks down at 7% they either do a utilt tech chase or a fthrow tech chase

Does this sound accurate? Or am I just missing something completely?

If this does make sense do you know the percents percents where I can start utilt tech chasing fox and falco?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey PP!

I finally got a chance to check out this legendary thread I've heard so much about and would like to express my appreciation for your consistency and helpfulness.

My question is regarding neutral: I know it can be hard to explain neutral and all of its moving parts in one Smashboards post, so I was wondering if you could point me in the right direction regarding resources that specifically tackle that part of the game. Whether it be older posts by yourself or others, videos, etc. I would really appreciate it.

For me personally, I find that I'm not focused well enough on my opponent in general, but this specifically includes the options they may use, their movement, and their habits. I have a hard time thinking about everything that my opponent may or may not do in a specific situation, and end up most of the time either dash dancing forever or going for a huge over commitment that either works or doesn't. Many players say to look at what they do and find an option that beats it, but it's so hard to do this mid-game. Any help is incredibly appreciated!

You're welcome!

I remember these videos being commonly linked for an intro back in the day. Maybe you can find them useful:

Smash Tutorial #1: Spacing

Lucien goes over the concept of spacing and how to do it as well.

www.youtube.com

Smash Tutorial #2: Reading Comprehension

Lucien goes over reading comprehension

www.youtube.com

Oh sorry the the pivot in the Zain clip was a little after the turn around.

But people that I usually play against have gotten into the habit of slight diing behind when I uthrow so Im trying to find some way to play arround that untill I get to a percent where i can pivot regrab consistently.

I'm looking at other marths and I see Zain and Kodorin use fthrow regrab (im geussing as a 50/50 between that and DI away and uthrowing) below 7% but after It knocks down at 7% they either do a utilt tech chase or a fthrow tech chase

Does this sound accurate? Or am I just missing something completely?

If this does make sense do you know the percents percents where I can start utilt tech chasing fox and falco?

That pivot is in line with it being a low 20 percent like I said.

Yeah you can Fthrow regrab to mix up their DI if you'd like, or Dthrow them for a tech chase. This works better on Fox, and works better on both if they can't fully tech roll away.

 

[SteelRhydon]

How do you deal with Falco approaching from the top platform by dropping down? I have trouble stopping their drop down fastfall dair but the Falco that I play also does landing laser from dropping down from top platform that catches my DD's and attempted uair/fair.
This applies to all stages that have tri-plats btw, but I obviously have more in Yoshi's Story and FoD where the top platforms are at their lowest.

 

[Dr Peepee]

So you CAN Fair the Dair still you just need to be more precisely spaced. You may need to fully retreat the Fair, or simply dodge if the Falco is too close. It's pretty hard to Uair unless you expect a particular timing. Something else to try is to hold a particular space instead of trying to cover everything, and then you can more easily beat certain lasers and pivot grab Dairs but if the laser comes from farther away you accept that and just go from there(or maybe go for powershield).

I think those are some good starting points.

 

[ssbmDevil]

I'm having trouble dealing with Falco's fullhop in/out of the corner. I feel like it's really hard to intercept falco in the air, due to variations in timing, drift and him having a double jump available. I'm trying to hit him out of the air with fair usually, but is that just the wrong approach? I feel like I can hit it like 1/5 times and convert into a kill about 50% of the time. Is there something I'm missing with this?

When they get to top plat, it also feels kinda bad for me on stages with a high top plat, since sharking him up there is a big commitment. Reading the reply above I guess I should just shark their landing instead?

 

[Dr Peepee]

You need to be close enough to beat his stuff when you are playing against his FH when he's cornered. This is assuming he's going straight up. If he goes over you, it's better to look to Uair him and move into position for that, then DJ and either land on platform or directly intercept his DJ with Uair/Fair to kill.

It may help to provide more specifics if that is not enough.

 

[SteelRhydon]

What are your go-to-options after Dtilting a character on shield? I know it varies depending on what character the opponent is, but I'm interested in knowing what options you go for in general to pressure on shield after the dtilt.

 

[Dr Peepee]

If the opponent is rushing me out of shield and my reactions aren't the best, I'll double Dtilt. Generally though, I prefer to slight walk to use IASA and be actionable to react to whatever they could do. So if they move in, Dtilt or dash back, if they jump, Fair. If they WD back, move in. I do not advise pretty much ever doing Dtilt grab btw.