Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[katakuna]

hello pp! my tag is deft (cant change on smashboards for some reason), and ive been in japan for a bit playing amsa alot. recently got wrecked by him this past weekend. what would you say is a basic gameplan as marth vs yoshi? i'm aware that i shouldn't really try to mess with him on platforms, besides maybe nair and late aerials->utilt(?) which i saw zain do. nair seems good to use, and so does late tipper fair->shield/dashback/swing again. but i often find myself unsure of what i should be doing at any given point in the match. or how/why certain things are good. id really appreciate any advice. thank you

 

[Dr Peepee]

You can't change your name on smashboards without paying for it or making a new account.

I don't really approach the matchup like Zain does. I think you can interact with Yoshi when he's DJC'ing. The reason for this is if you hit him during his DJC aerial you can kill him, and if you hit him as he wavelands but before DJ'ing then he can't do anything. So you can do things like retreating/spaced FH Bair to push Yoshi away to get better positioning and damage and to be fine even if you hit his armor if you want.

But I think trying to find ways to Fair/maybe Uair Yoshi out of DJC is good at least sometimes. The reward is insane you can get massive damage or a stock even at low percent from it. And if you're wrong you often take a little damage or nothing. So SH'ing right as Yoshi comes off the platform you will be falling as he comes into you for example and so you can falling aerial.

Anyway, if Yoshi is on the ground, you have to watch for DA vs Fsmash vs parry vs DJC. DA isn't too common but if you dash back you can hold down on the end of it. So mostly you're worried about parry in my experience plus whatever they like to do. For parrying, it helps to fully space but if you're going to jump in, be sure to change your timing. I find that delaying aerials with no FF probably works pretty well and Yoshi has to guess a bunch of times to get the timing otherwise so you can also wait that out. You could also empty land grab and space it more if you want.

Grab(Fthrow) is good because you can catch a DJC or hit Yoshi or regrab or tech chase. Or he goes off the stage in which case watch for DJ armor and stay spaced.

I've said a lot and I imagine you'll have questions so I'll stop now.

 

[runeii]

Hello PP. I am new to smashboards and have questions about mentality and work ethic but can't find a place to ask you them beyond the Marth and Falco threads you have. Is there a better place so I'm not making off-topic discussion, or do you simply prefer to only talk about character stuff?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I don't mind answering those things in these places. I never made a melee general thread, but I do genuinely find character stuff easier to discuss. Mentality and such are more personalized and often take coaching to resolve, but not always.

Anyway, you can ask here or in the Falco thread these things for now. I may change my mind later but for now yeah go for it. Also I am glad you asked so there weren't any issues!

 

[runeii]

Thank you, I appreciate your time.

I'm relatively new to the game, a slippi kid who has been playing for just over a year now and heard of here through KoDoRiN, as he's in my region. I just got back from my first major, Mainstage 2021, and feel more motivated than ever to improve my play after going 0-2 again. I don't want this feeling to wane, and I'm genuinely interested in pushing Sheik to a better place than she is in the meta today despite some frustrations towards her lack of results.

I feel like my work up until this point has been of little help. I use Training Mode in UPTM to practice movement and some positioning almost daily and try to play unranked when I can, but I don't feel like I've gained that much more control over my character in the past few months and my internet is often too bad to make the unranked experience of any use. At the rate I'm at, I don't suspect I will progress very well. Friendlies are hard to come by, though I make do every few weeks or so, or when I can go to/run my own tourney.

In the end, I feel like I don't know what focused practice actually looks and feels like. I understand there is no "cheat code" to improving and everything takes time, but struggle to understand how to work on my play beyond movement and tech skill (though admittedly I still have a lot of work to do in those as well). I'm sorry if the question is vague, but how did you go beyond learning character control and make better use of your practice time?

 

[katakuna]

You can't change your name on smashboards without paying for it or making a new account.

I don't really approach the matchup like Zain does. I think you can interact with Yoshi when he's DJC'ing. The reason for this is if you hit him during his DJC aerial you can kill him, and if you hit him as he wavelands but before DJ'ing then he can't do anything. So you can do things like retreating/spaced FH Bair to push Yoshi away to get better positioning and damage and to be fine even if you hit his armor if you want.

But I think trying to find ways to Fair/maybe Uair Yoshi out of DJC is good at least sometimes. The reward is insane you can get massive damage or a stock even at low percent from it. And if you're wrong you often take a little damage or nothing. So SH'ing right as Yoshi comes off the platform you will be falling as he comes into you for example and so you can falling aerial.

Anyway, if Yoshi is on the ground, you have to watch for DA vs Fsmash vs parry vs DJC. DA isn't too common but if you dash back you can hold down on the end of it. So mostly you're worried about parry in my experience plus whatever they like to do. For parrying, it helps to fully space but if you're going to jump in, be sure to change your timing. I find that delaying aerials with no FF probably works pretty well and Yoshi has to guess a bunch of times to get the timing otherwise so you can also wait that out. You could also empty land grab and space it more if you want.

Grab(Fthrow) is good because you can catch a DJC or hit Yoshi or regrab or tech chase. Or he goes off the stage in which case watch for DJ armor and stay spaced.

I've said a lot and I imagine you'll have questions so I'll stop now.

i really appreciate the advice! i do find the no fastfall tipper fairs very useful when ive chosen to do them, especially because amsa is just so insane at parrying. nair is great versus the parry too ive found. so for interacting witih him and his DJC, what would you recommend? i imagine how you approach it is dependent on percent. like going for more tipper aerials at around 80%, and of course retreating fairs/bairs. so like, whenever he just double jumps at say low/mid% towards the stage, i should just be trying to tag him with retreating aerials to rack up percent safely/catch DJC aerials? and of course at higher percents with the goal to just straight up break the armor. honestly though i think my main struggle is dealing with him when he's on the platforms. his threat range is so huge! i feel like he can hit me from nearly anywhere, and i often find myself trying to zone him in the corner out of just getting too scared lol. sorry if the wording is bad, i have almost no yoshi experience so i'm just trying to start with the basics

 

[Fate of Reality]

Hey PP! I was wondering what are good uses for Marth's Ftilt. I started trying it out with Fair into Ftilt as a way to cover Falco approaches, and when I tried it out in friendlies it did work sometimes, though I don't if it's because it's a decent option or because they just weren't playing around it. What are your thoughts on uses for Marth Ftilt?

 

[Dr Peepee]

The Marth thread is the only one that ever gets used roflll Falcos out here

Thank you, I appreciate your time.

I'm relatively new to the game, a slippi kid who has been playing for just over a year now and heard of here through KoDoRiN, as he's in my region. I just got back from my first major, Mainstage 2021, and feel more motivated than ever to improve my play after going 0-2 again. I don't want this feeling to wane, and I'm genuinely interested in pushing Sheik to a better place than she is in the meta today despite some frustrations towards her lack of results.

I feel like my work up until this point has been of little help. I use Training Mode in UPTM to practice movement and some positioning almost daily and try to play unranked when I can, but I don't feel like I've gained that much more control over my character in the past few months and my internet is often too bad to make the unranked experience of any use. At the rate I'm at, I don't suspect I will progress very well. Friendlies are hard to come by, though I make do every few weeks or so, or when I can go to/run my own tourney.

In the end, I feel like I don't know what focused practice actually looks and feels like. I understand there is no "cheat code" to improving and everything takes time, but struggle to understand how to work on my play beyond movement and tech skill (though admittedly I still have a lot of work to do in those as well). I'm sorry if the question is vague, but how did you go beyond learning character control and make better use of your practice time?

Well, you need to control your character as well as possible first. If you can't do that, you lose focus when trying to adapt and also play neutral or punish.

Anyway, to answer your question: You can practice neutral by practicing neutral attacks and defenses. Do you want to deal with Fox SH Nair? Then practicing motions that beat it whether by giving CC access or by outspacing it are what you want to do.

For tech chases that should be pretty obvious but you can also make savestates which have them doing the hard to handle DI and no tech vs tech in place vs tech roll after to make it harder. You can also learn percents for Dthrow conversions and practice hitting those well. Stuff like Dthrow dash Uair on Marth at low percent are very hard but very rewarding for example. But you can do this in a variety of matchups, just look for kill confirms and practice them.

i really appreciate the advice! i do find the no fastfall tipper fairs very useful when ive chosen to do them, especially because amsa is just so insane at parrying. nair is great versus the parry too ive found. so for interacting witih him and his DJC, what would you recommend? i imagine how you approach it is dependent on percent. like going for more tipper aerials at around 80%, and of course retreating fairs/bairs. so like, whenever he just double jumps at say low/mid% towards the stage, i should just be trying to tag him with retreating aerials to rack up percent safely/catch DJC aerials? and of course at higher percents with the goal to just straight up break the armor. honestly though i think my main struggle is dealing with him when he's on the platforms. his threat range is so huge! i feel like he can hit me from nearly anywhere, and i often find myself trying to zone him in the corner out of just getting too scared lol. sorry if the wording is bad, i have almost no yoshi experience so i'm just trying to start with the basics

Do you mean his DJ armor? Yeah tippering his armor is better at higher percent but it always seems to last against tippers longer than I expect. If you can Dair or Fsmash him as he's coming below the stage he might not always be able to airdodge up grab edge and live so that's something cool.

Remember, Yoshi's armor ends at the end of his DJ so he either has to aerial or airdodge or just land unsafely so you can just wait then hit him. This forces Yoshi to swing or airdodge earlier, which is just easier if you can set up to handle it.

Dodging Yoshi DJC when he's on platform really isn't the point to me. You can dodge Nair but if he does egg lay or Fair you just get hit in those ranges. I think it's okay to dodge sometimes and you can react to Fair imo, but sometimes if you just stand there you can Utilt him if he Nairs and dodge/go into him with Fair/Uair if he Fairs. Focusing too much on dash back punishes hurts Marth in this matchup a lot and it's a Marth habit worth breaking anyway.

Hey PP! I was wondering what are good uses for Marth's Ftilt. I started trying it out with Fair into Ftilt as a way to cover Falco approaches, and when I tried it out in friendlies it did work sometimes, though I don't if it's because it's a decent option or because they just weren't playing around it. What are your thoughts on uses for Marth Ftilt?

Ftilt is kinda neat. It swings low to high, has a decently strong tipper, and decent range. It sucks if it doesn't tipper and sometimes if they're higher up you get punished for the slowness. I guess the endlag can occasionally be punishing.

I find it kinda useful vs Falco as a walk option to stuff lasers when they wanna avoid jab and try to outspeed Fsmash. I also think it's decent vs Puff when she's floating near you to walk Ftilt her. It's decent shield pressure, and it's like a middle ground for catching jumps too. I think it works pretty well in the Marth ditto when the other Marth jumps as well.

 

[Kotastic]

PP, in your prime days you're able to move fast in disadvantage situations. I think what exemplifies this a lot is your marth game vs mango at MLG where in the beginning of the set, you get naired at 0 (not CC'd), and you immediately dash out of the hitstun and get a neat reversal.

I would 100% buffer a shield/roll/spotdodge in that situation because it's not like I expected to get naired at 0 and immediately dash, but you seem to have some extra special awareness in those spots to not immediately buffer and act with a superior tool of dashing rather than subpar options like roll/spotdodge, but how? Did you really just practice dashing in those exact spots? If so, how?

I think part of the reason why I buffer is because I want to get out ASAP, rather than seeing what's actually happening and what I can logically do in X spot despite being in a disadvantage.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Mentally I did practice those spots. I generally noticed whenever I'd get stuck and then look for it to happen in games and practice moving out of it. Some help came from meditation and practice and game connection, but you can work on it too. Also I didn't fear getting hit/losing.

 

[_Abubakr_]

Hello PPMD! I have an issue where I find it very hard to go outside of my comfort zone when playing/trying to improve. (and in my outside life).


To break this issue down further, whenever I want to try and implement a change in my gameplay or mentality etc, what I will do is try to do the change, then as I am trying to implement said changes, I will usually fall on comfort habits that I have made up because I feel uncomfortable and since I don't like that feeling of that, I tend back on whatever is easiest or comforting.


As a result of this, it has led me to keep getting stuck in my improvement process and I want to know what I can do to fix this issue (and know if I am going in the right direction when I don't fall on comforting actions). Would this be a matter of me just toughening out the uncomfortable situation/feeling and doing it enough times so I change and don't fall into comforting things/habits?


If you do find areas where I was vague, please tell me to specify it then and break it down further! Anyone else in this thread lurking is also free to help, I really want to improve and be able to get better faster

 

[Dr Peepee]

You might be taking on too much at once. So trying to do smaller changes might build confidence and ease. Or you may need to just go into your comfort stuff to a lesser degree. Or you may need to address the underlying tension instead of the process itself, doing emotional work. Or maybe you can find a healthier comfort habit.

There are lots of possible solutions, but the main thing is to be very certain you want what you want. If you do that and stay emotionally invested, then the best solution for you will come up as long as you keep trying things.

 

[JaggedCole]

Hello Mr. PPMD. I need some advice. I get really bad physical performance anxiety and I don't really what to do about it. My hands tense up really bad when I play and my body shakes slightly. Obviously anxiety in game is normal but it happens to me (albeit less often) in friendlies too. No like intrusive thoughts, it's just like physical stuff and sometimes it'll cause me to zone out. Anyways if you know what might help this especially in the moment of it happening I'm very interested.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I responded to you in the other thread. No need to post in both in the future, I assure you I check both =p

 

[JaggedCole]

oh thats my bad my post wasnt showing up for me in the other thread for some reason

 

[LSDSSBM]

Hello PP,

How do you flow with RNG elements during tournament sets? Whenever shy guys or Whispy causes me to drop a combo, it causes me to almost short-circuit in my decision process and I get frustrated because I felt like I couldn't control the outcome. I've noticed that top Marth players nowadays like Zain don't seem to be affected by these elements, and often are able to use them to their advantage (even if they aren't able to predict them).

 

[Dr Peepee]

I think that, as much as possible, it can be useful to prepare for those sorts of things happening. So if you can learn how to make the most of whispy blowing you somewhere and what options you have in addition to extra DI provided by Fly Guys or how to hit them while still maintaining a punish then that makes you more comfortable. Basically learning to play the stage.

The other approach is to accept that these things WILL happen and there's no point resisting it. Once we accept that things can randomly happen, even things like polling or whatever can also influence moments, we can then begin to say that sometimes mistakes of our own or beyond our will happen but they happen to all of us. Maybe it's easier to say that you can have peace among what you might call "imperfection."

When you have this peace and you have this readiness and ability to use it for yourself, then you will stay calm and pay attention no matter what. This puts lots of pressure onto the opponent and can make them more likely to crack and you can reap the rewards.

 

[_Abubakr_]

Hello PPMD,

I currently have an problem of constantly overthinking when playing, especially on what I want to do (which puts attention away from what the opponent is doing and countering that) and when I make mistakes (which leads to self deprecation).

So what can I do in game to stop thinking so hard and just flow and,
What practices can I do outside of the game to overthink less?

 

[Dr Peepee]

If you mean tech skill you want to do, that's practice. If you mean you want to a hit a certain move in a certain way, then yeah that's gonna keep you from focusing. It may be more useful to tell yourself to just watch how the opponent moves: where are they spaced, how fast are their dashes, what have they done before, etc....these things force you to watch them and keep you thinking about them.

Meditation helps outside of the game to overthink less, but also it can be useful to remember that things will happen regardless of always processing them. Thinking is okay, but when you've reached the end point of a thought it's okay to let it go and focus on your breathing for a while, or something pleasant that doesn't take thought. Maybe a nice smell.

 

[Sylarius]

I love Kevin Nanney. I hope you are doing well these days PP

 

[falsegripmudkip]

What is a good gameplan when you have a read that someone (fast faller) likes to full hop in certain situations? For example from corner or side plat. Full hopping myself to cover it feels so risky.

 

[Dr Peepee]

SH a little early then DJ Fair/Uair them depending on stage and whether you want to hit their jump or landing. Alternatively, you can let them FH first then go after them with FH/DJ Fair/Uair depending on stage and whether they DJ in response to your jump.

 

[Frast]

Hi ppmd, big fan here.
Looking at your playstyle I noticed an intriguing option you use, when you throw a move to a very close opponent and the opponent rolls in you use one or more moves from the dancing blade to punish him.
I was wondering if you use this as the only possible punish or as a mixup and if so how often/ in what situations would you recommend using it?
I know that both cases are possible depending on the matchups/spacing and I would be honored to hear your opinions on the matter and on the optimal combination of moves of the dancing blade deemed so inconsistent/unsafe

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dancing Blade is mostly good at coming out quickly and tripping the opponent up. The first two hits are best done as quickly as possible almost always, then the third hit being forward is usually best. M2K has gotten some mileage out of 4th upward hit because it goes so ridiculously high, but often the first three are good enough.

 

[Kotastic]

Got some questions vs sheik

I'm really struggling in dealing with sheiks slight jump forward fair, and the mixups beyond that. To start, the first component is actually beating the fair itself, and then the second component is reading the correct timing of them jump fairing.

In terms of actually beating the move itself, I'm a little stuck with consistently beating the option. DD grab seems too tight and susceptible of getting spotdodged, nair in place is relatively unreliable. Rising fair and fsmash seems to reliably beat it, and jump in place or fade back late fair can be reliable depending on distance. Dtilt landing is possible but low reward.

As for the reads component, this is where I feel like the tools I listed above are sort of reversed. Rising fair and fsmash have terrible lag if I whiff, requiring that i need to hard read a very specific jump timing in order to win. Nair can cover multiple timings, and DD keeps me protected against early attacks, but those options don't really win often to begin with.

Only jump in place or fade back fair seems to be the reliable answer to consistently beat fair in terms of winning outright and lenient in terms of reads.

The problem however is that I feel like I get too predictable relying on jumps, and I feel like I'm letting sheik dictate the tempo as I'm playing very defensive with this mode. Airborne needles also seem more effective vs jumps in place as well. While I can play around certain offense they do, if they simply take stage or play defensive themselves, that's where I feel like I struggle in finding clean openings if they don't hurl themselves at me. I feel like I need to rely on jump in place because of how prominent sheiks jump is in the mu, but the way how I'm going about it doesn't feel like I'm playing to marths strengths in mobility. When I move though, I feel like I'm compromising my ability to beat sheiks fair.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dtilt helps you stay mobile and dodge needles right? It wouldn't have to be your only answer, but it could help with what you're listing to an extent.

 

[Kotastic]

Honestly halfway through the post I realized my own answer but submitted anyways to vent and hear your perspective LOL

I'm intrigued why you're pointing out dtilt as the answer, as cc is hard precisely space around and I'm not really sure how to cleanly beat their jump in response to approaching dtilt.

For needles, I meant airborne needles to clarify, both the sh and fh variant. They react and cancel with an aerial if I get under fh. I also don't really have clean answers against them tbh.

 

[Dr Peepee]

The nice thing about prepping for Sheik jump is you get some extra time since she is pretty floaty. Also it's a bit easier to space since her drift isn't very good too.

For needles, if they cancel the needle if you get under them, then you could hit or dodge right?

 

[improvingmale]

hey pp, i actually dont play smash anymore but i do my best to apply lessons from smash to my life. im a pretty competitive guy and i enjoy the thrill of competition, but these feelings often turn toxic if i take something too seriously (really for any game that i play). my question is, how can you detach yourself from feelings of failure or disappointment that turn into anger when you put so much into something and don't reach your goals or standards? my assumption is that you don't need those emotions to improve, so if you can enjoy the positive feelings associated with improvement and success without experiencing the drawback of negative emotions, that'd be ideal.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I think detaching is not the play here, personally. Those emotions are trying to teach you something, even if it's a lesson you don't like. Instead, I would prefer suggesting going into those emotions and learning from them, and at the same time imagining how you'd ideally like to respond to difficulties. I personally think it's healthy to lose and be happy for your opponent or maybe be a little sad but know that your worth is determined by more than a result and also be happy that you learned and improved even if you didn't win. So that's what I try to go for.

 

[improvingmale]

I think detaching is not the play here, personally. Those emotions are trying to teach you something, even if it's a lesson you don't like. Instead, I would prefer suggesting going into those emotions and learning from them, and at the same time imagining how you'd ideally like to respond to difficulties. I personally think it's healthy to lose and be happy for your opponent or maybe be a little sad but know that your worth is determined by more than a result and also be happy that you learned and improved even if you didn't win. So that's what I try to go for.

thank you, my friend. ill give this new angle a shot!

 

[Agrathor3]

Eh, what's up doc? It's been a while since I felt the need to pester you about a tiara guy thing. (though this also relates to the laser chicken) So what I'm wondering is do you have any advice on consistently hitting the mid air turnaround when you are dashing away then sh and neutral B?

Also have you been having much luck doing arials with the c-stick?

 

[Dr Peepee]

What do you mean, dash away then sh neutral B? If you want to turn around, you simply press the direction you want to go a bit early then press B. You have a decent amount of leeway with this so it's not too hard.

The C stick aerial thing I try sometimes especially when I'm practicing more, but I haven't been for a few months so it hasn't been happening. I still Uair with the C stick a lot though. I am wondering if I'd entirely switch, especially since certain full drift Fairs I can do, but given I'd like to utilize more drift and initial momentum mixups, I'll need to use it eventually. For Falco this matters less but still matters, and for Marth it matters a ton.

 

[Agrathor3]

What do you mean, dash away then sh neutral B? If you want to turn around, you simply press the direction you want to go a bit early then press B. You have a decent amount of leeway with this so it's not too hard.

The C stick aerial thing I try sometimes especially when I'm practicing more, but I haven't been for a few months so it hasn't been happening. I still Uair with the C stick a lot though. I am wondering if I'd entirely switch, especially since certain full drift Fairs I can do, but given I'd like to utilize more drift and initial momentum mixups, I'll need to use it eventually. For Falco this matters less but still matters, and for Marth it matters a ton.

I was going to record a clip for you and figured it out in the process. My description was off as well. What was actually happening was that I dashed back then dash back toward them and jump. During the jump squat of said jump I move the control stick away from my opponent so as to make marth do the short hop where he sticks his feet in front of him (if there's a name for that please do tell)to stop my momentum and now the problem was that I would let go of the stick and neutral B to laser or whatever and that's usually fine I go pew and they cry. If I let go of the control stick too late then I turn around again doing a sick 360 and shooting behind me looking like a goon.

Haha I guess I'm lucky that when I started I thought "Why would I use A and just have worse movement?" Would you mind telling me more about those initial momentum mixups? They sound very interesting

 

[Dr Peepee]

You can just press forward again to reset the turnaround before letting go and pressing B.

Yeah honestly a lot of players start C stick and I'm happy for them haha.

Marth has a floaty-ish jump and long moves, so basically you're abusing exactly how long you're in the air, where you'll be, and when/where the move happens. This can be good when threatening opponents on the side platform to space properly or to do fakes, but it's also just good in neutral to switch up how you control space. I suppose there's stronger utility in using this vs shielding/cornered opponents as well since they aren't going to dash back to dodge your aerials so much which is one of their largest weaknesses, especially if CC is off the table.

 

[Kotastic]

If you try to dash dance where the fox is within WD dtilt range and you dash back and the Fox does an overshoot like nair or running shine or dtilt, how does that influence your future dash dance sequence? Or is this when you'd start favoring some zoning? If so, how are you doing it out of movement?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Crossups or further movement back are the obvious two unless you try to counter it before/as it comes out. Retreating Fair/Nair would be most straightforward to use and generally be less punishable on whiff.

 

[Kopaka]

Hey.

I'm struggling to prevent fox from getting inside/walling out his approaches without opening myself up and making my reactions too predictable. Fox will run at me from two wavedashes (or so) outside of my threatening range, I'll think that that's a visual cue for me to instant fair or dash back grab, and he'll whiff punish or cc grab. Fox running at me feels like a free hit, but of course he can stop the dash, run up shield, cc, full hop come down drill, etc. I guess I'm thinking that because he's so fast that by the time the hitbox comes out he'll be hit. But that's not always the case, and good foxes will sniff those reactions out. Other times I'll try to dash forward grab but Fox ends up dashing juuuust outside my range.

Against good players who know how to weave around the typical Marth strategies, I'm trying to figure out what cues or confirms I should be looking for that'll make the chances of me hitting or grabbing fox much higher. Fox has so many ways to manipulate his movement on the ground so I don't even know where to start. I'm guessing the answers have to do with range/how far away we are from each other, the time at which I'm jumping and whether or not I'm changing that. Jumping feels like such a risky move versus good players so it needs to count.

I've been told I'm panicky versus fox in neutral, swinging too early or getting antsy if they're far away. Dash dancing forever trying to bait out a whiff grab doesn't work. Nor does mindless swinging. What's a good starting point? (I can try to get more specific if we dive farther into this, but for now I have to start a bit nebulously because of how volatile the matchup can be).

 

[Dr Peepee]

If your goal is to wall Fox out, it is helpful to consider what is best vs his run-ins. Nair is quite good because it can hit jumps and also be effective vs holding down. Retreating Fair can still be good vs jumps and potentially fine otherwise. In place Fair is relatively safe when spaced vs all but CC assuming a late Fair. Dtilt covers his ground space well, and run up grab as you mentioned can stop overshoots effectively too(sounds like you could just run farther before grabbing?)

It sounds like you'd benefit from moving from this point to considering where to stand vs Fox to make the best use of this. It is also helpful to consider that Fox usually cannot beat Marth's moves outright from farther away, meaning he can take different timings to approach.

 

[Kopaka]

If your goal is to wall Fox out, it is helpful to consider what is best vs his run-ins. Nair is quite good because it can hit jumps and also be effective vs holding down. Retreating Fair can still be good vs jumps and potentially fine otherwise. In place Fair is relatively safe when spaced vs all but CC assuming a late Fair. Dtilt covers his ground space well, and run up grab as you mentioned can stop overshoots effectively too(sounds like you could just run farther before grabbing?)

It sounds like you'd benefit from moving from this point to considering where to stand vs Fox to make the best use of this. It is also helpful to consider that Fox usually cannot beat Marth's moves outright from farther away, meaning he can take different timings to approach.

Thanks for the response. Also I was worried you misread my Twitch chat message as "Check your smashboards thread" instead of "I checked your smashboards thread," I didn't want to come across as bossy. Anyways, appreciate the help.