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Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

Dr Peepee

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What is the purpose of SH in place vs Fox? Why should I do SH fair in place instead of nair in place aside from fair beating FH forward better?

I find that sometimes I spam SH in front of Fox's face too much and it can get me eaten up.
It would depend on your spacing. Farther away it would encourage him to challenge you and take stage(or laser if he wishes). Closer it would encourage an earlier attack or backing up or waiting depending on his reactions and conditioning.


What options do you think marth should be doing in this situation? What would you personally default to? I feel like this comes up a lot because marth can often get caught out of position in neutral and be forced to shield a bair but I'm not really sure how to proceed when it happens to me.
If Puff's percent is higher and she likes to play more passively/waiting, then WD in OOS and Dtilt is great to me. Otherwise I'd prefer to WD back. If I think she will Bair early I'll angle shield up.
 

Kotastic

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If you had rules on how to kill Fox, what would you list?

What about for neutral?
 

Zorcey

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I recently had to play a set against my brother in which I completely lost my cool and just forfeited in the middle of a game because I couldn't handle the competitive pressure. While I've been struggling with a problem with winning for years, I had never actually gone so far as to forfeit a set before, and it really bothers me that I did. It also happened in the wake of some very significant breakthroughs/improvements in my play, and I guess that isn't a coincidence. This feeling that whenever I beat someone I'm like, crushing their dreams lol, it's gotten harder to handle lately, and I think my improvement in the game might be related. In this case knowing that my brother has been working hard at the game too just got to me--I realized that I didn't even want to play (much less win) and I just wanted it to be over. Afterwards I was seriously wondering if I'm just not cut out for competition.

When I've brought up these sorts of questions before, you've told me to consider the importance of my own dreams. And I mean, I would say sure they're important, but I guess I have a hard time reconciling myself to the fact that I have to step over everyone else's dreams to achieve them? That's kind of messed up. But I certainly know that if I don't beat them, someone else will just come along and do it, and they'll have to come to terms with themselves then anyway. I also know that "crushing their dreams" is probably melodramatic and they'll be over it in a day or two. Besides, if you asked me with no context, I wouldn't say I'm particularly interested in helping others achieve their dreams anyway.

But all this makes me wonder whether or not I'm using the other person as an excuse. I've always been wary of ascribing a "fear of success" to myself because it sounds... pretentious. I've also thought it might cloud my judgement when I try to figure out why I failed at something. But at this point I'm not sure what else it could be. I'll have to do my research on the matter, but I needed to put this into words and I thought you might have some insight.
 

Dr Peepee

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If you had rules on how to kill Fox, what would you list?

What about for neutral?
hmmmmm

secure as many 50/50s or guaranteeds as possible, push up and out, can't figure out one for edgeguarding specifically besides don't do the same thing all the time lol

neutral: don't give free lasers, challenge his landing lag, wait out DJs, fair hits at the correct angle, grab only when it works

I recently had to play a set against my brother in which I completely lost my cool and just forfeited in the middle of a game because I couldn't handle the competitive pressure. While I've been struggling with a problem with winning for years, I had never actually gone so far as to forfeit a set before, and it really bothers me that I did. It also happened in the wake of some very significant breakthroughs/improvements in my play, and I guess that isn't a coincidence. This feeling that whenever I beat someone I'm like, crushing their dreams lol, it's gotten harder to handle lately, and I think my improvement in the game might be related. In this case knowing that my brother has been working hard at the game too just got to me--I realized that I didn't even want to play (much less win) and I just wanted it to be over. Afterwards I was seriously wondering if I'm just not cut out for competition.

When I've brought up these sorts of questions before, you've told me to consider the importance of my own dreams. And I mean, I would say sure they're important, but I guess I have a hard time reconciling myself to the fact that I have to step over everyone else's dreams to achieve them? That's kind of messed up. But I certainly know that if I don't beat them, someone else will just come along and do it, and they'll have to come to terms with themselves then anyway. I also know that "crushing their dreams" is probably melodramatic and they'll be over it in a day or two. Besides, if you asked me with no context, I wouldn't say I'm particularly interested in helping others achieve their dreams anyway.

But all this makes me wonder whether or not I'm using the other person as an excuse. I've always been wary of ascribing a "fear of success" to myself because it sounds... pretentious. I've also thought it might cloud my judgement when I try to figure out why I failed at something. But at this point I'm not sure what else it could be. I'll have to do my research on the matter, but I needed to put this into words and I thought you might have some insight.
There is nothing pretentious about hiding your own light. If there is, then pretty much everyone is pretentious, myself included(for now).

I have been sensitive to these things before. What I find is that, in simple terms, people get used to things. They often get used to losing and don't get mad about it if they accept you as someone who often wins against them. This doesn't mean they think you're a better person than them or anything, though some do conflate those things sadly.

You are absolutely right these things are related. I have found success to be much more dangerous than failure for people, myself included. You become more aware of things and it's hard to turn the light down on that without significant effort. You have a choice to make and a self to encounter, a more full and authentic self. I hope you will accept as much as you can of it.
 

Zorcey

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What exactly do you mean when you describe success as “dangerous” here? I think that’s an interesting way to put it, but I’m wondering if I understand what you’re getting at correctly.

Come to think of it, do you have any book recommendations on this topic?
 

Dr Peepee

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When I say dangerous, I mean that it is a trap or at least an important situation which many do not navigate in a healthful fashion. It brings many things closer.

Inner Game of Tennis probably helped me with it indirectly, but I have not seen a work which has ever directly addressed this issue. Maybe Art of Learning with its beginners mind concept helps as well.
 

Kotastic

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Given how Marth can't really conventionally wall against Falcon, how often would you encourage Marth to swing at Falcon? What about dash dancing just to be really hard to hit inside his max distance aerials as my go-to?

In YS, how do I discourage Falco FH'ing from top platform when I'm at center and he's corner? How do I fend off Falco WL'ing off top platform when I'm at the corner?
 
Last edited:

maxono1

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How do i use notes effectively?
i take/have like a lot of notes and they are structured for mu's and like different subjects like movement and stuff.
but i feel like they just rot away there and i never really look at them again. they have accumulated a lot so im overwhelmed trying to make them more digestible.
How do you use your notes? do you have like a set time where you just review them?
i feel like melee is weirdly different from school, where its all so interconnected and situational and there is so much more to learn lol.
 

Dr Peepee

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Given how Marth can't really conventionally wall against Falcon, how often would you encourage Marth to swing at Falcon? What about dash dancing just to be really hard to hit inside his max distance aerials as my go-to?

In YS, how do I discourage Falco FH'ing from top platform when I'm at center and he's corner? How do I fend off Falco WL'ing off top platform when I'm at the corner?
You can wall Falcon, but at a longer distance. Some of it may involve retreating aerials more when a bit closer to ensure safety.

DD'ing outside of his max range aerials absolutely ensures safety, but of course if he just takes space you would find yourself cornered quite quickly.

How do i use notes effectively?
i take/have like a lot of notes and they are structured for mu's and like different subjects like movement and stuff.
but i feel like they just rot away there and i never really look at them again. they have accumulated a lot so im overwhelmed trying to make them more digestible.
How do you use your notes? do you have like a set time where you just review them?
i feel like melee is weirdly different from school, where its all so interconnected and situational and there is so much more to learn lol.
Yeah I'd say you could benefit from simplifying your notes. Try to find a common theme between some points and make a general bullet point. That general thing can help you recall the rest if you do it right.

Or maybe you feel that isn't possible. In which case, just select what is the most valuable and then write those points down. That'll be a much much much shorter list and easier to remember. You can then put other things in there as you remember the first part and organize that way.
 

maxono1

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yeah simplifying makes sense, i think rather than keeping them short and easy to review, i tried to be as thorough as possible and made it clunky as a result.
the second part sounds like minimalism, where you have to ask the difficult question of what you really need and what is just dead weight.
thanks for the pointers
 

Zorcey

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When spacies shorten their SideBs, what exactly are the adjustments Marth has to make to hit the edgeguard? (I understand the obvious, like having to use double Jab, but it feels like there’s a timing element that I don’t quite understand.)
 

Kotastic

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Why should Marth do a dash forward then dash back vs Fox when Marth can do a dash forward jump back fair, aside for more reward of a pivot grab?

What do you consider a winning position vs Fox?

When I am within tipper dtilt spacing vs Falcon and I know he will jump, do I try to react his attempt to jump aerial over dtilt then aerial his jump, or is it more of a preemptive read
 

Dr Peepee

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When spacies shorten their SideBs, what exactly are the adjustments Marth has to make to hit the edgeguard? (I understand the obvious, like having to use double Jab, but it feels like there’s a timing element that I don’t quite understand.)
So we are assuming you can hit the jab on it. Normally, as long as you jab a bit early so you can tipper the spacie out of the initial side B, you can time or even early input A again to get a second jab to hit the shorten.

Why should Marth do a dash forward then dash back vs Fox when Marth can do a dash forward jump back fair, aside for more reward of a pivot grab?

What do you consider a winning position vs Fox?

When I am within tipper dtilt spacing vs Falcon and I know he will jump, do I try to react his attempt to jump aerial over dtilt then aerial his jump, or is it more of a preemptive read
Marth is not taking as large of a commitment with the dash back.

Tipper Dtilt spacing(generally).

If he's cornered you can pretty much read it. I would say reacting is variable in the neutral space but if you're just gonna side B then very reactable. Reactions depend after all.
 

Zorcey

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https://youtu.be/mdP_CrvtDjc?t=643 What do you think about Zain's positioning before he jumps in this clip? It seems like if he had been a little closer, the Fair arc could have covered Hungrybox doing this little fadeback, which might have encouraged Puff to jump instead. However, being closer might have allowed Hungrybox to jump over Zain, and while that would cost him a jump, he still ends up behind him, and that doesn't sound worth it to me (especially when he would still have 4 left).
So I'm wondering about this clip, but also about the broader question if it's ever worth it to let Puff over your head in exchange for one of her jumps - at the very least on FD/PS.

When Puff does get over Marth's head on these two stages, what do you do to reorient yourself to the new position? Puff generally gets down if she gets over me.

In this game Hungrybox seems very conservative about how many jumps he uses before he lands (usually only 1-2). The adjustment I would make if I noticed this would be to push harder into Puff as she comes down with Marth Fair/Uair to hit them back up+out. Do you think there's a use to holding back/waiting when Puff isn't using many jumps before she comes down that I'm not thinking about?
 

Dr Peepee

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Given my time constraints and incoming Patreon, I don't think I can commit to video analysis here anymore.

But yes, if Puff isn't jumping than many times you can and should be punishing it. Zain was pretty good about this in neutral, but in the punish if he telegraphed at all then Hbox may have done an extra jump or fadeback which can cause issues.

The conservative play to let Puff fade back is fine, especially when she has more jumps because she gains more height per jump and can go over you. Choking Puff out this way seemed to work for Zain from what I saw, but yeah if he could call out Hbox a little bit more that could have been to his benefit(if it got him a kill, sometimes an additional hit may not be worth it but that's just a risk/reward analysis).
 

Kotastic

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I caught some of your Apex analysis where you utilized shimmying (?) where you use movement to signify potential times you can go in, especially when your opponent is cornered and/or locked down.

I can understand why this is really good for falco, but would you recommend the same for Marth? It seems generally just spacing a fair or dtilt is the superior option. When would shimmying have its place for marth?
 

Dr Peepee

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I did it with Marth too. The idea would be you bait a grab and then punish what comes next. Although I guess you could bait going in with like Dtilt or rising Fair I guess too depending on how you do it, the closer grab variant is stronger to me.

There is no real "need" to shimmy. If you just want to do the good stuff, you can just do that. You may find yourself wanting to do an outplay vs an opponent who is great OOS, if you find yourself run up grabbing a lot and the opponent is adapting well, if you wish to do an unusual type of play to gain momentum, or something else. Shimmies can be good then.
 

Kotastic

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to clarify when you mean "you bait a grab" do you mean you're baiting the opponent's shield grab or the Marth representing the grab out of movement?
 

Zorcey

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When Marth and Peach are DDing around one another at WD Dtilt range, how do you actually make the Peach feel threatened? I find it difficult to make a conservative Peach do anything punishable from this position, and they can often react when I preemptively break TR with WD or dash in to poke. I’m not really leveraging the advantage this spacing gives me.

What should change in Marth’s DD when Peach has a turnip to adjust for that new threat?
 

Dr Peepee

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You could WD shallowly so she preemptively attacks at you, or run in from a bit farther away as if you'll RC Dtilt and fake. You can move in when they land or have to WD back sometimes so they can't react because they're in lag.

Changing to be closer to her or in a place to hit her or hit the turnip safely I guess.
 

Dr Peepee

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Double posting because I am salty about that first answer being scuffed.

If she isn't DA'ing when you come in, you can pressure outside of her FC range pretty easily with Fair/Nair or walk or however you wanna get there Dtilt.
 

Zorcey

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Double posting because I am salty about that first answer being scuffed.
Lmaoooo I appreciate that. This helped, I realize I was respecting it too much when she wasn’t showing me she’d throw it out, but by bullying her in that space I’m getting a better sense of the rhythm between conditioning her into the DA and out of it now.
 

Zorcey

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Is double posting acceptable in this scenario lol?

How would you deal with a Fox who’s willing to take a lead, and then just infinite firestall until I go into the corner? On YS this feels almost impossible to beat because of the range of Fox’s LD threats, but maybe there’s some spacing I can just set up Fair pretty safely?

When this Fox mixes up his timing LDing, how do you stay alert? I try to stay primed to react to it, but staying primed wears me down and I often get lulled into somehow not expecting it.
 

Dr Peepee

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I guess so

Also that strategy is kinda funny but also kinda terrifying. I think moving closer then backing up to see if he's willing to come up every time or only when you get close is useful. I also found going under or behind sometimes necessary if it happens a lot. The thing is if he doesn't come up, you can start getting close then trying to Dtilt him out of his up-B.

The thing with being alert is knowing when to react and when to do stuff. Don't try and react during his refresh since he's doing that.
 

Zorcey

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What do you mean by "going under or behind" here? Trying to take the ledge?
 

Kotastic

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When Fox is on the side platform on all stages and he SH offs, he threatens quite a lot that I feel like I need to respect even on DL, let alone PS/YS/Fod. He then DJs to the top platform (not counting PS here). Do you think it's often worth to intercept Fox to the top platform, or just stay my ground and SH fair/dash away to protect my ground and not wildly swing?

In general whenever Fox is on the side platform, I feel like he's waiting for me to swing badly to find an opening, which is why I'm hesitant on intercepting him going to top platform.

Whenever Fox and especially Falco is on YS/FoD top platform, I feel really pressured to swing really badly, and often I do so resulting what I feel I'm giving them more free hits than I should. I feel like I corner myself too easily, but I don't know how to play mixup from center too cleanly. Any ideas?
 

Dr Peepee

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If Fox DJs early and does not waveland, he will have extra air time. This can allow you to react and punish. However, I'd say a general rule is to let him do it unless you are more certain he will go for it and can be more primed as a result. I can hit the reaction somewhat reliably if Fox goes low if I know he might do it and I'm playing well, but it is hard. Some consideration of worth will also judge how much damage you may be able to get off of the opening, as you could get hard punished for missing.

The last question would probably require a session tbh, but I'd say swinging a bit less is a good starting point. Druggedfox used to say standing under the center platform was pretty good. Don't know if he changed his mind.
 

Dr Peepee

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Tipper the Dtilt, Nair, weak Fair can push them away, Fsmash if you want. In this scenario, you could be spaced farther back to Dtilt the edgedash and then otherwise keep him trapped/Fair him if he haxdash into DJs onto side platform. In that scenario too, I believe you could dash back before he grabbed anyway.
 

Liquid_

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Follow-up question:

How does one deal with low % falcon when they run up and crouch, seems like the only two options that "beat" the crouch are dair and grab, both of which are pretty hard commits. Another option I was thinking of was to avoid directly interacting with it entirely, but that seems incorrect because then you have given him space for free.
 
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