• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
19,346
@Sveet: I'm just using a keyboard since its the only thing I have and too lazy to get a controller for it. So, its more of annoyance than anything.

I imagine it happens in game since I assume the melee disc and dolphin emulator are perfect recreations of the actual game. Whether that weird airtime is due to emulation or something in the actual game, I'd like to know the reason behind it. If fox is frame perfect, (Input on last frame of jump squat), then his 2nd laser comes out as he lands on the ground. If he is not frame perfect, then the added air time gives him two frames for the 2nd laser to come out on. Go figure.

@Dempt: Ask sveet, not me. He actually makes bracket. And I lose to lonejedi
 

.Ðempt

Certified Ponch
Joined
May 2, 2010
Messages
982
Location
Mantua, OH
@Sveet: I'm just using a keyboard since its the only thing I have and too lazy to get a controller for it. So, its more of annoyance than anything.

I imagine it happens in game since I assume the melee disc and dolphin emulator are perfect recreations of the actual game. Whether that weird airtime is due to emulation or something in the actual game, I'd like to know the reason behind it. If fox is frame perfect, (Input on last frame of jump squat), then his 2nd laser comes out as he lands on the ground. If he is not frame perfect, then the added air time gives him two frames for the 2nd laser to come out on. Go figure.

@Dempt: Ask sveet, not me. He actually makes bracket. And I lose to lonejedi
Would still be nice to hear an opinion from someone who is most likely better than I am.
 

Anand

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
282
Location
Cambridge, MA
If a character makes a special attack or aerial input on the last frame of their jump squat, they lose air time by a frame or two compared to making the input on the first frame of air time. I have no idea why it does that other than maybe something to do with how the game accelerates a character during their jump.
Sounds weird. Are you sure that doesn't happen normally in the game?
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=317385
 

.Ðempt

Certified Ponch
Joined
May 2, 2010
Messages
982
Location
Mantua, OH
Sure, hit me up on AIM and ill look at them
I don't have AIM, and it's too much of a hassle for me to dl it. I'll just link you via PM.

Oh yeah, I ended up being able to do LHDF after two minutes of practicing. Relatively easy; learning Neutral B stall was tougher.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Yeah, DF isn't too hard now that I am comfortable dropping with down. I want to be able to uair though since having that hitbox come out in front is so much better, plus it has a better setup. I also suck at the waveland. MELEE? YUSOHARD?!
 

.Ðempt

Certified Ponch
Joined
May 2, 2010
Messages
982
Location
Mantua, OH
Yeah, DF isn't too hard now that I am comfortable dropping with down. I want to be able to uair though since having that hitbox come out in front is so much better, plus it has a better setup. I also suck at the waveland. MELEE? YUSOHARD?!
I mean pretty much I throw the Control Stick down, and toss it towards the direction of the stage as fast as I can lol but I got it. Toughest part is just timing the motion of dropping down>jump>fair as one fluid input.

Haven't thoroughly attempted the waveland from the LH after the FAir. I'm assuming it is possible, but because you have to wait for the full animation of the FAir to finish, how many frames do you have to actually waveland?

As far as the UAir goes (or the second FAir for that matter), I'd have to train myself to remember to switch over to using the C-Stick after using the Control Stick to FAir, so I have movement control instead of just flooring it in one direction.

And I love SH FAir > waveland now. :D
 

.Chipmunk.

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 4, 2010
Messages
599
Location
Lawrenceville, GA
Yeah, DF isn't too hard now that I am comfortable dropping with down. I want to be able to uair though since having that hitbox come out in front is so much better, plus it has a better setup. I also suck at the waveland. MELEE? YUSOHARD?!
I mean pretty much I throw the Control Stick down, and toss it towards the direction of the stage as fast as I can lol but I got it. Toughest part is just timing the motion of dropping down>jump>fair as one fluid input.

Haven't thoroughly attempted the waveland from the LH after the FAir. I'm assuming it is possible, but because you have to wait for the full animation of the FAir to finish, how many frames do you have to actually waveland?

As far as the UAir goes (or the second FAir for that matter), I'd have to train myself to remember to switch over to using the C-Stick after using the Control Stick to FAir, so I have movement control instead of just flooring it in one direction.

And I love SH FAir > waveland now. :D
Z button. That is all.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
C-stick release -> tap jump -> forward + Z
Three digits over two.
It's harder to go from tap jump to fair than it is to go from drop with down to fair. You have at least 2 frames to get from down to forward, but if you go from up to forward you have to do it in 1.


@Sveet

He said tap jump, as in up on the control stick. Not tap jump, as in press Y. lol
 

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Messages
16,256
Location
Northern IL
Oh wooops lol


im always scared to use control stick for jumping because I lose a little time of horizontal control.
 
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
19,346
For what reason is there less time to move the control stick from up to side compared the down to side motion? You just have to have the control stick above the diagonal mark to tap jump, then make a slight slide to below the diagonal to get a Fair to come out.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
For what reason is there less time to move the control stick from up to side compared the down to side motion? You just have to have the control stick above the diagonal mark to tap jump, then make a slight slide to below the diagonal to get a Fair to come out.
The order of stuff goes:
1. Ledge drop
2. Jump
3. Fair

If you use the stick for 1 and 3, you have more time to move the stick 90 degrees than if you use the stick for 2 and 3. You're more likely to accidentally uair than dair.

I guess. But then you run the risk of BAiring, lol
How would you bair, from C-sticking the drop? I use C-stick down to drop when I Scar jump (so I don't lose my DJ), and I almost never accidentally dair.
 

.Chipmunk.

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 4, 2010
Messages
599
Location
Lawrenceville, GA
Bones0 said:
The order of stuff goes:
1. Ledge drop
2. Jump
3. Fair

If you use the stick for 1 and 3, you have more time to move the stick 90 degrees than if you use the stick for 2 and 3. You're more likely to accidentally uair than dair.



How would you bair, from C-sticking the drop? I use C-stick down to drop when I Scar jump (so I don't lose my DJ), and I almost never accidentally dair.
I believe that if you use the C-stick and it wiggles in any fashion, the game reads it as 2 inputs and you'll dair or bair depending on which way you dropped. If you want to use c-stick it has to be a steady, smooth, single motion.

.Dempt said:
In what possible way does the Z button do any better than the A button when you're ledge hopping? It doesn't ease and hand/finger movement that the A button already has.
And to answer your question .Dempt, Z is easier because I do not have to move any fingers in order to hit it (I use X off the ledge). I hold the controller as if I'm going to JC grab so I just hit down and X at the same time, then use Z for the directional move I want to toss out, moving the control stick immediately after I've dropped because I hit X when I dropped. I guess it depends upon what you are using to jump now that I think about it. If you are using the control stick to drop>jump you can have your finger ready on the c-stick and do whatever you want. If you want to do the fair to uair off the ledge (I see no earthly reason to do this ever), you'll have time to move to the c-stick if you've used z, though you won't really need to because you've already spent your jump so there is no fear in moving the control stick to the up direction to use Z (Though I don't even do this.)

Just to extend my point a little further, the reason M2K is so technical with his ledge stalling is because he uses a different finger to jump than he does to attack/stall. No finger movement = less chance for error.
 

Divinokage

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 6, 2006
Messages
16,250
Location
Montreal, Quebec
http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=U...=ttdc22S5JIQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=180s

What should I be doing more in this matchup? More moves to attempt to shut down Jiggs or move around to keep good space? Because I feel like if I move around too much, my next attack becomes too predictable because I have stop and attack him but it seemed like I had a hard time to get in the angles where my attacks would hit vs his. It looked like I had the same problem with Ganon except that at least I have the speed to keep up.
 

Varist

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
Messages
1,603
Location
Austin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=U...=ttdc22S5JIQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=180s

What should I be doing more in this matchup? More moves to attempt to shut down Jiggs or move around to keep good space? Because I feel like if I move around too much, my next attack becomes too predictable because I have stop and attack him but it seemed like I had a hard time to get in the angles where my attacks would hit vs his. It looked like I had the same problem with Ganon except that at least I have the speed to keep up.
3:00 why would you jump and upair you know he's not gonna just stay on that platform for you to hit him
3:03 why would you slowly walk up and ftilt, what was he gonna do, think "oh no i got hit by a move with tons of end lag i hope he doesn't walk up to me after it and grab now that i am in all this shield stun"
3:07 why would you fsmash when he's at 6%? what reward will a risky naked move get you?
3:11 why would you jump above jiggs? as marth?
3:14 don't usmash
3:18 don't miss l cancels
3:20 walking up to jiggs slowly and using f tilt is still not working for you
3:23 why would you dj and get above jiggs again? fast fall and land on the stage, you can fall faster than jiggs, you would've made it for sure. then just cover your *** with uair. if it tippered and hbox did it horizontally that could have been a kill in itself.
3:30 why did you ledgehop nair, what did you expect jiggs to do, come back into your range to get smacked when she could just wait for a roll option or bair your ledgehop?
3:34 marth inexperience, dw about it
3:42 stop using ftilt when jiggs is right out of range, she's quick enough to punish. hbox is not going to run into your moves, he's gonna wait for your slow *** marth to do a move then come smack you
3:56 don't dash dance when he's invincible, what the hell is that gonna do
4:05 if you f-smashed here it would've hit. if you're gonna wavedash to reach that far and score a naked hit at least use marth's farthest move
4:06 you ftilted again, and look what he did, moved in after the hitbox was gone and smacked you. should start counting when that happens
4:07 ledgejump was a gamble, especially with jiggs, who has the mobility to move in and smack you before you get fair out to cover your fall
4:13 this would have been a time to use ftilt. he was already closing in on you, why react even slower by trying to jump and use an aerial first?
4:18 why would you use bair if he just did a crossup on your shield
4:21 ??? you didn't utilt after that wd back. tech flub, more marth practice
4:22 get uair out faster, that was too late of an attempt to cover your jump.
4:33 you ****ied out, shoulda faired him, he was in endlag and it would have tippered and he'd be above you again
4:35 your wd in place is too slow to score a naked fsmash like that, hbox saw it coming with the kind of spacing you chose
4:39 fair oos was a panic option i assume, you weren't gonna hit his weave
4:47 you don't need to be that close to the ledge to dtilt
4:49 that combo doesn't work on jiggs, if it does, only on cpus, hungrybox not gonna di a marth throw in for any reason
4:57 why are you just throwing out moves on the ground, it's not like jiggs is gonna choose to just ff into them.
4:59 why did you ftilt, it had a horrible angle for that situation. naked fsmash was safe there.
5:01 why did you ftilt, use fsmash
5:02 why did you usmash, tech flub
5:10 ??????? you were mashing jump during a combo? near the ledge? wtf kage you're better than that
5:18 why would you uair if he was in front of you? point the broom where it goes
5:21 why would you dtilt if he was in the air? utilt?
5:22 why'd you get so close and jump in the air and no fair covering it? slow reaction or tech flub?
5:26 why would you jump over shielded jiggs and land in front of her? you could've waited a little more and just fallen on the stage behind her
5:30 hbox is really good, called that grab. not a mistake but m2k used to jab spam when he was that close to hbox and he prob felt like hbox saw a grab coming

To answer your specific questions although no one will take me as seriously as someone else, I think you weren't very intimidating in this match. you need to play safer against jiggs, but you also can't do what you did and just walk around using ftilt. you have to respond to where she is and where you think she will weave to, i don't think this is a match where you should jump very often, and i would almost go for grabs, i would just wall her. you had a hard time with angles because you sacrificed your positioning too much. if jiggs is in the air in front of you, you don't ftilt or fsmash, you sh fair or wd a little to adjust positioning and utilt. when you get jiggs in the air above you, try very hard to catch her landing and uair. a lot of times hbox's weaving is hard to deal with on the juggle so you should chase with tipper fair. as marth never try to continue the juggle on jiggs if she hasn't yet fallen to your single jump height. you use marth's ridic horizontal dj to catch with bair if hbox weaves away from where you thought you'd be able to hit with fair.
 

V

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
963
Is Marth's short wavedash useful between uairs and utilts for platform pressure or is it unnecessary?
 

.Ðempt

Certified Ponch
Joined
May 2, 2010
Messages
982
Location
Mantua, OH
And to answer your question .Dempt, Z is easier because I do not have to move any fingers in order to hit it (I use X off the ledge). I hold the controller as if I'm going to JC grab so I just hit down and X at the same time, then use Z for the directional move I want to toss out, moving the control stick immediately after I've dropped because I hit X when I dropped. I guess it depends upon what you are using to jump now that I think about it. If you are using the control stick to drop>jump you can have your finger ready on the c-stick and do whatever you want. If you want to do the fair to uair off the ledge (I see no earthly reason to do this ever), you'll have time to move to the c-stick if you've used z, though you won't really need to because you've already spent your jump so there is no fear in moving the control stick to the up direction to use Z (Though I don't even do this.)

Just to extend my point a little further, the reason M2K is so technical with his ledge stalling is because he uses a different finger to jump than he does to attack/stall. No finger movement = less chance for error.
Your logic makes sense, I'll agree with you there, but I prefer to use the C-Stick simply because my movement is much easier, and it helps my spacing as such.
 

.Chipmunk.

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 4, 2010
Messages
599
Location
Lawrenceville, GA
Your logic makes sense, I'll agree with you there, but I prefer to use the C-Stick simply because my movement is much easier, and it helps my spacing as such.
That's fine, just know that if you're dropping with c-stick it's much harder to be frame perfect with your ledge game. Dropping with the control stick is much better (not saying you are using c-stick, just saying in general).
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
That's fine, just know that if you're dropping with c-stick it's much harder to be frame perfect with your ledge game. Dropping with the control stick is much better (not saying you are using c-stick, just saying in general).
How is it harder? I am convinced control stick down is the best way to ledge drop when you're trying to be frame perfect, but C-stick can be helpful if you claw and want to do something like ledge dash. You aren't going to accidentally have that extra frame of FFing working against your DJ height, which is huge for characters like Marth/Ganon whose DJs barely make it on stage as is. Control stick back is the only one that is strictly worse because you are limited to jumping back unless you can go from back to forward insanely fast.
 

.Chipmunk.

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 4, 2010
Messages
599
Location
Lawrenceville, GA
How is it harder? I am convinced control stick down is the best way to ledge drop when you're trying to be frame perfect, but C-stick can be helpful if you claw and want to do something like ledge dash. You aren't going to accidentally have that extra frame of FFing working against your DJ height, which is huge for characters like Marth/Ganon whose DJs barely make it on stage as is. Control stick back is the only one that is strictly worse because you are limited to jumping back unless you can go from back to forward insanely fast.
Try neutral b regrabbing the ledge with control stick, then with c-stick. It's harder. Doesn't make sense to me either.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Going from the C-stick to B is harder, duh. But if you are doing something other than B moves and claw, then C-stick is fine, and often better than using the control stick. This conversation is dumb. Where are those idiots that go around saying "it's all preference, man!" when you need them.
 

.Ðempt

Certified Ponch
Joined
May 2, 2010
Messages
982
Location
Mantua, OH
it's all preference, yo, *****
^This. Even though the kid is banned apparently lol

Chip, I think you misunderstood me. I use the Control Stick to drop, C-Stick is strictly for my aerials. What I was agreeing with you on was the note that using Z does make the input smoother, and more likely to come out. However, you lose control of your movement (at least, that's how I feel). On that note as well, by hitting Z. you would have time to switch to the C-Stick for your aerials, allowing your Control Stick to grant you your movement control again. Learning the transition though, would be the toughest part of it all, and that (along with it already being difficult to do) is what doesn't make this trick worth learning/using (as it still poses many risks).

Now, with all that being said, I kind of want to talk about something else.

I'm well aware that M2K being M2K has figured out nearly everything we know for Marth. But what does Marth possibly have that we haven't explored yet that could be metagame defining for him, if of course it isn't already? Not including everything we already DO know about this character.

I just feel rather than bickering and ranting about a tech-skill trick, let's actually talk about something that has a little more purpose behind it. that's all.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Side-B needs to be explored a lot more. Everyone complains about Marth's KO options, but as far as I can tell, it's extremely unlikely a spacie will be able to DI out of a standard 3-hit side-B, and the last hit is strong enough with a low enough angle that it's a nice KO move, or at least strong enough to set up for Marth's sick edgeguarding to finish the stock. There's also a bunch of mixups to be explored, like I think if you hold up for the third hit, Marth does some overhead swipe, and even if they are at a super high % they barely receive any KB. Then you have the downward one which setups up an easy tech chase, or if they miss the tech, you just do it again. Oh yeah, and all of this is coming from the initial side-B, which is extremely fast and can be used easily out of DD, WD, walk, or even run.

Taj
 

MT_

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 8, 2009
Messages
791
Location
Austin, TX
Using the first hit of side-b as an interrupt against falcon works surprisingly well. I didn't believe it until I got ***** by it and then tried it myself.

:phone:
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Nah dude. I SDI inward and get through Marth after the first two hits fairly often.

Also, CC ruins it.
SDI and CC ruin everything in the game unless you're ready for it. Even if they SDI through you, you just omit the third hit and tech chase. It's not like they can just sit there CCing either. I pretty much never CC vs. Marth until he leaves the ground because you have to stay mobile to avoid grabs.
 
Top Bottom