Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[SnailManBigHitta]

Do you think there are any really valuable sets that every marth should watch/analyze because they showcase a certain matchup really well? Whether it's your own marth, m2k's, etc. I used to just watch ones where two similarly skilled players played and the marth 3-0'd the other guy, but looking back on those sets, most of them just seemed like the non-marth was messing up tech or something.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Me M2K MLG for Marth Sheik or maybe that M2K Plup game if you think it'll be useful, then Marth Fox there are too many, Marth Falco no good ones exist, Marth ditto anything me m2k, Marth Falcon none exist but some Moon sets are alright, Marth Peach me armada for neutral and m2k armada where m2k wins for edgeguards, marth puff none exist

Kotastic , I should probably add that WD in is fine if you do before the Fox FHs and he's responding to your movement with FH. WD can sometimes be better than dash then since you get access to Utilt or other options out of it.

 

[SnailManBigHitta]

Have you ever thought about making a flowfeedback of a segment of one of your sets, like game 4 MLG vs mango for example? It would be sick to see all your thought processes laid out

 

[Dr Peepee]

I could do that, but I'd struggle making it concise/useful to various people that would see it. One day I'll just be doing regular analyses on stream and I'll eventually hit all of the good stuff I imagine, in addition to making MU guides.

 

[Kotastic]

PP, how do you feel about overshooting vs undershooting while gradually taking space against opponents that really like playing a whiff punish style? I find that the latter method works best against Sheik and Peach since they only have so much movement to work with so they want to WP as soon as they can, but overshooting I find work best against like Marth because he has so much reach and most Marths have a bad habit of dash dancing towards the corner anyways. Fox and Falcon I find are mixed bags because they have an extra dimension in the form of jumping and I'm still not sure what's the best approach against them.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I don't understand your question. How can you overshoot or undershoot while gradually taking space? Do you just mean gradually taking more vs less space?

 

[Kotastic]

oh sorry for being a bit vague. I mean overshooting like what the term itself mean like run up d-tilt, whereas I guess not really undershooting but moreso just taking space and faking an undershoot to encourage a whiff punish like these scenarios, like how you use fake a d-tilt or how M2K is ambiguous with his DD nairs

https://youtu.be/kREm4Bsw58M?t=10m5s
https://youtu.be/X1dys1qMPPI?t=13m54s
https://youtu.be/W57UDajMfkY?t=7m54s
Perhaps I'm not using the right term, but this is the image is what I'm getting at that I find works best against Sheik and Peach

 

[Dr Peepee]

Oh you mean taking space basically. And yeah taking space works great vs those two since their bigger forward options are pretty risky/laggy. It also helps in Peach's case you pretty much know exactly what she will do if she moves in on the ground most of the time.

Overshooting Dtilt can be fine vs Marth since most will dash back if you come in, but good Marths should also be at least mixing in run up grab or jumping over Dtilt when they see approaches(or just Dtilt'ing you first lol).

Vs Fox and Falcon, they already jump a lot so you don't need Dtilt much against them. Dtilt is an occasional encouragement to keep jumping. Once you have that, then pivot grab/Fair especially become the strong options. Vs Falcon you really only want to jump when right next to him or if you confirm he jumped first, or if he's quite cornered so he can't dash back punish. Fox you can jump more liberally against.

In general, taking space should be used instead of always committing or always waiting in one place. It gives your movement depth.

 

[Zorcey]

In general, taking space should be used instead of always committing or always waiting in one place. It gives your movement depth.

There's a point though where taking space becomes a commitment, right? Like when dashing into an opponent's range, you're basically reading that they're not going to attack that dash, and if they don't, you've taken that space, but you had to commit to get it. Is my understanding of this correct?

This sort of links into a question I had: I've been trying to figure out (concretely) what beats what at various spacings like you had recommended to me, but I have that common Marth problem of "barely missing" a lot of the time - with everything but aerials in particular - and it makes me question how I actually figure this out. I believe every interaction in Melee is determined by timing and spacing, so I must not be paying attention to one or both of these properly.

What often happens to me is I'll commit to something thinking it "wins" but then lose the interaction anyway because my timing or spacing was off in some way, leading to me barely missing, leading to me getting whiff punished. You've told me before that barely missing was likely a result of not understanding situations properly, which makes a lot of sense, but I'm not sure how to isolate situations and distinguish them from one another. More specifically, I can't keep up with how quickly situations change in the game, especially when I don't/only sort of understand them all. How do you dissect a situation, and how do you adapt to each new one so quickly when you play?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Taking space is less of a commitment than full on attacking. Usually, anyway. I mean in an intuitive sense you don't get as close to them, so it should be harder for them to hit you and you should have more time to react to them attacking your forward movement/new position right?

Putting aside possible psychological answers like lack of confidence for reasons why you may be missing, I think you'd do well to re-examine what you think is correct. The way I did this sort of thing was to just look at what's right in front of me. Did I miss a Fair I was CONFIDENT I'd hit? What else was I worried about then which distracted me? Do they do that option enough to warrant me being cautious about it? If so, then how can I discourage that option OR find a new way to play the situation? Basically, what do I do to beat the way my opponent uses options right in front of me? While it's absolutely good to consider as many possibilities and their interactions as you can, you have to also be practical in the moment. If someone forces you to re-evaluate how you consider a position, that's a good thing and you should start there. And if you don't know why it happened or think this means you shouldn't come up with ideas on your own, I'd disagree. Having your own ideas gives you a way to focus in and really pay attention to outcomes in the same way paying attention to certain specific stimuli help you pay attention to the whole picture in practice. But if your theory gets(partly or wholly) invalidated in a match, then you have to adjust your theory.

Really it's hard to answer this much better without specifics. Maybe you were too far away and that's why you missed, or there were options you didn't consider, or you didn't really allow for reaction time to confirm an option to play into your decision making, or some other reason. I don't know. If you can try something like that or what I said above or bring in specifics, then I imagine you'll find something.

 

[Zorcey]

Taking space is less of a commitment than full on attacking. Usually, anyway. I mean in an intuitive sense you don't get as close to them, so it should be harder for them to hit you and you should have more time to react to them attacking your forward movement/new position right?

Putting aside possible psychological answers like lack of confidence for reasons why you may be missing, I think you'd do well to re-examine what you think is correct. The way I did this sort of thing was to just look at what's right in front of me. Did I miss a Fair I was CONFIDENT I'd hit? What else was I worried about then which distracted me? Do they do that option enough to warrant me being cautious about it? If so, then how can I discourage that option OR find a new way to play the situation? Basically, what do I do to beat the way my opponent uses options right in front of me? While it's absolutely good to consider as many possibilities and their interactions as you can, you have to also be practical in the moment. If someone forces you to re-evaluate how you consider a position, that's a good thing and you should start there. And if you don't know why it happened or think this means you shouldn't come up with ideas on your own, I'd disagree. Having your own ideas gives you a way to focus in and really pay attention to outcomes in the same way paying attention to certain specific stimuli help you pay attention to the whole picture in practice. But if your theory gets(partly or wholly) invalidated in a match, then you have to adjust your theory.

Really it's hard to answer this much better without specifics. Maybe you were too far away and that's why you missed, or there were options you didn't consider, or you didn't really allow for reaction time to confirm an option to play into your decision making, or some other reason. I don't know. If you can try something like that or what I said above or bring in specifics, then I imagine you'll find something.

Oh yeah, I didn't meaning to imply it's more of a commitment usually, I was just wondering maybe what relatively common situations there are where taking space is just as committal as an approach, since I figure they exist.

There are psychological factors I could bring up, actually, but I've been telling myself if my understanding of the game is much better than my opponent, those shouldn't weigh me down enough to make me lose an interaction (which I guess I can't really defend myself for thinking, since it's probably unhealthy). I think I've mentioned them all here at some point: my guilt at the idea of winning/salt phobia, my tendency to overfocus and slow myself down, and my insecurity about how I train. Your wording, "did I miss a Fair I was CONFIDENT I'd hit?" hits the issue cleanly, because 90% of the time I'm not confident in my play. I notice I play much better when I'm confident and let myself flow, but then my mind becomes very uninvolved and I worry I'm not learning as a result - it's some sort of Self 1 and Self 2 balance I think I have to make but don't know how. I feel like when I play confident I'm "playing to win" instead of "to learn," does that make sense?

Questions about my opponent's options occur to me in the middle of a match, but I suppose I don't answer them properly because I'm preoccupied with playing at the same time as well as working through questions. That's one of the ways I overwhelm myself I should stop? But then I'm not sure how I should be approaching friendlies if that's the case. I try to come in with ideas, but they can often be vague or about something I don't understand well, which leads to a lot of mental dialogue while I'm playing, which leads to me being slowed down and unable to execute. I suppose I could break out of this with confident, flowing play, but I worry it'll prevent me from learning; and of course as long as I worry truly confident play becomes impossible.

 

[strawhats]

quick question...for ppmd or any marth experienced with the Marth vs Yoshi MU. Do you believe that marth loses in neutral to Yoshi or is the punish game so mitigated for marth/slanted due to Yoshi's Superarmor/Recovery? Played Whiskers at a local at Apollo in friendllies and was absolutely lost with regards to NEUTRAL and Punish game

May also explain why I've never seen m2k try marth 1x against aMSa.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Oh yeah, I didn't meaning to imply it's more of a commitment usually, I was just wondering maybe what relatively common situations there are where taking space is just as committal as an approach, since I figure they exist.

There are psychological factors I could bring up, actually, but I've been telling myself if my understanding of the game is much better than my opponent, those shouldn't weigh me down enough to make me lose an interaction (which I guess I can't really defend myself for thinking, since it's probably unhealthy). I think I've mentioned them all here at some point: my guilt at the idea of winning/salt phobia, my tendency to overfocus and slow myself down, and my insecurity about how I train. Your wording, "did I miss a Fair I was CONFIDENT I'd hit?" hits the issue cleanly, because 90% of the time I'm not confident in my play. I notice I play much better when I'm confident and let myself flow, but then my mind becomes very uninvolved and I worry I'm not learning as a result - it's some sort of Self 1 and Self 2 balance I think I have to make but don't know how. I feel like when I play confident I'm "playing to win" instead of "to learn," does that make sense?

Questions about my opponent's options occur to me in the middle of a match, but I suppose I don't answer them properly because I'm preoccupied with playing at the same time as well as working through questions. That's one of the ways I overwhelm myself I should stop? But then I'm not sure how I should be approaching friendlies if that's the case. I try to come in with ideas, but they can often be vague or about something I don't understand well, which leads to a lot of mental dialogue while I'm playing, which leads to me being slowed down and unable to execute. I suppose I could break out of this with confident, flowing play, but I worry it'll prevent me from learning; and of course as long as I worry truly confident play becomes impossible.

Closer spacings mean they're often quite similar as an example.

When playing friendlies it's fine to not flow. As long as you get new ideas that's what really helps. If you can then switch between this state and playing to learn, or integrating these new ideas, that will help a lot. Asking questions and working through things is perfectly fine, and that ability to pay attention to detail will help make your playing to win stronger. If you ask too many questions, then you should focus in on what's most important or just a small subset of questions. You'll get to everything eventually, just start somewhere manageable.

quick question...for ppmd or any marth experienced with the Marth vs Yoshi MU. Do you believe that marth loses in neutral to Yoshi or is the punish game so mitigated for marth/slanted due to Yoshi's Superarmor/Recovery? Played Whiskers at a local at Apollo in friendllies and was absolutely lost with regards to NEUTRAL and Punish game

May also explain why I've never seen m2k try marth 1x against aMSa.

Nah I think Marth is fine vs Yoshi at least in terms of neutral. Punish I know less about on BF/DL but on the other levels I think punish should be fine. It's a matchup I'd really need to grind out since it's weird. Hitting Yoshi after his armor wears off or just grabbing him/letting him land is a very different way of punishing.

 

[Zorcey]

Closer spacings mean they're often quite similar as an example.

When playing friendlies it's fine to not flow. As long as you get new ideas that's what really helps. If you can then switch between this state and playing to learn, or integrating these new ideas, that will help a lot. Asking questions and working through things is perfectly fine, and that ability to pay attention to detail will help make your playing to win stronger. If you ask too many questions, then you should focus in on what's most important or just a small subset of questions. You'll get to everything eventually, just start somewhere manageable.

Okay, this is reassuring. Trying to focus on what's most important sounds like a good philosophy and I'm going to try to integrate that mindset, as well as trusting that working things out in the midst of friendlies is fine.

I've also been thinking a lot about how to structure my studying of "what beats what," and an idea came to me earlier about defining positions mostly by TR of different options. I'd tend to be writing things down trying to work out a situation (like, Fox FHing, Sheik Needle camping, etc.) and would come to my usual mental block of how to work out all the variables; however, if I define everything in context of TR, I have a simpler system I can work with (Fox FHing inside SH Fair range, Fox FHing outside SH Fair but within (his) FH Nair/Dair range, and Fox FHing outside TR, as an example). Does this sound like a workable system to you? It seems like it really focuses in on the important bigger picture, since the approximation of the spacing between Marth and Fox helps narrow what Fox is threatening and what his intentions are, as well as what determining what Marth should do in response. Just wondering what you think/if you have anything to add to it.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah that's perfectly fine. It's also worthwhile to mess with some closer-range stuff so you know exactly when you can safely Fair/Nair vs an approaching Fox Nair and when he is too close for example.

 

[Zorcey]

Dr Peepee trying to really get into that Marth/Falco analysis you posted to Reddit awhile back, and I have some questions about what's unclear to me:

- Sorry, I think you might have answered this before, but what don't you like about Dash Attack, again? I was playing around with it versus various Lasers, and it seems like at tipper spacing it beats all of them in place (even low if you're fast enough), high retreating, and kind of trades with approaching depending on how hard Falco goes in, regardless of height. The only one it seems to outright lose to is a low retreating Laser (which doesn't seem that bad to me because the threat of the Dash Attack would make Falco do that Laser more often, giving Marth stage). It does lose hard to Nair and Dair though, so does that have something to do with it? But it doesn't look to me like a spacing where Falco would often be tempted to use an aerial, since he has to go full in to hit Marth standing, but even if he does a low drift aerial to catch dash in, Marth's Fair/Nair still wins pretty easily. Is there something I'm not thinking about here?

- You write, "if [Falco] shields he loses so that's amazing for you, you don't even need to grab and risk getting hit here." Could you elaborate on this? Why does Falco lose, and why don't I want to risk the grab? What do you recommend instead?

- When do you recommend WD/take Laser > Jab versus dash/take Laser > Side B? I know the Jab is faster by two frames, but that you don't have access to it out of dash/run, but I wanted to ask if that's all there was to it. Just looking at the moves myself I can't think of anything else though.

- When Falco is cornered, you recommend FH/DJ Fair to beat his FH escape, but what spacing do you think is best to maintain corner pressure and cover that option? I struggle to react to the FH and figure I'm too close. (Generally I'm just outside the opposite edge of the platform.) Should I try pressing in lightly to bait it out? I think I try to but commit too much, I need to be more conscious of exactly what I want my opponent to do/how I do that.

- I know you mentioned that particular state of neutral is unclear to you, but the question of what makes Falco go from giving up on Lasering (a lot) and then going back to it really piques my curiosity. Do you mind sharing any ideas on what causes that ebb and flow in the matchup?

 

[Dr Peepee]

For DA, Falco can back up and laser if Marth looks like he wants to come in, or just back up and then aerial in if it seems like Marth commits in this way(run up PS or DA, etc). Also, while not terribly common, Falco could hold down vs DA and just not laser. In other words, the DA beating laser does make some assumptions about timing and how Falco sets up his lasers. That being said, in the current state of the meta, you're probably not going to have to worry about all of this terribly much and you should experiment with DA. This is one of the two matchups where I'd even kind of recommend the move at all and this is the best matchup for it I think. I'm not necessarily against it, but I think doing it a lot like M2K wants to do is a mistake.

For the shield, Falco cannot threaten anything OOS. Your Fair beats everything. He could FH, but if you're close you can just FH/DJ with him and catch him with Fair or fall and punish his landing if he pops DJ early etc. He could WD back which is a fine enough mixup, and if he mixes this and FH well he can sometimes get away with WD in or Dair OOS or roll either way. But really, the position is pretty terrible for him since he's slow and does not have big range. Let's also remember that shields aren't infinite and he only has so much time to act, even if you never attack his shield at all. You running in to grab means giving up your range and mobility advantage that I've just described. The reward can be worth it sometimes and I don't wish to say anything impractical, but tunneling on the grab is a massive error that ignores Marth's major strengths. BIG SWORD BIG FAST
I'd recommend instead that you occasionally poke if you want, but really begin learning how to beat/set up on his different OOS actions, how to condition with slight movement and spacing differences, and really to begin thinking overall of how to abuse Marth's superior power in the position. Practicing the position and really looking at the options will help a lot I think, as well as picking Falco and reversing it.

I rarely advocate for take laser side B. Or rather, I might dash/beginning of run side B between two lasers/during some other Falco adjustment period but not exactly am I interested in using it to counter anything or to "hope" it works. It's great at hitting high and so is great for when Falco jumps and especially when he lasers since it takes a while to come out. Oh let me explain it like this. First I think you should slow down Falco so he's not doing laser into aerial or laser dash back aerial so much. Take laser jab will beat this at an important spacing(s). It beats Dair and Nair when tippered but you have to do it right away(you can second jab to beat them waiting/dashing back then attacking more on reaction I find...but if they keep waiting without laser it gets weird lol). Then once you have him either switching his laser timing up OR doing 2+ lasers in a row before attacking, you can now take laser run side B on reaction because you can now be primed for his different reactions.

You might need to practice it, or you might need to be closer. Also opposite end of platform is pretty different on FoD as compared to DL lol. Staying just out of his Dair OOS range, so pretty close to him is what you want to do. He can't really do anything here as I outlined before. Maybe practice from this closer spacing and see if that helps and we can talk again if not.

Well it's kinda weird. See, Falco NEEDS to laser. He literally cannot function without it because they make up for his terrible speed and range. But, it is a big commitment on the front end to get it to come out. Because of this and the fact that he jumps when lasering, he gives up control and safety in order to get safety. So he moves the safety somewhere else basically. He could move it backward like with a reverse laser, or he could fall from a platform to mitigate laser jumping startup, and/or he can change timing/other spacings on his laser(such as different drift or waiting for new opponent position) to change his laser. This all sounds pretty nifty, but in practice Falcos aren't so complicated unfortunately. I find that when I stop their initial laser plan, they often will try to yolo a little more under pressure. Then switch to something odd where it seems like more lasering and erratically moving back and forth between yolo and more lasering. I don't have the full mechanisms of control nailed down on this yet but it seems that's the overarching archetype Falcos use. That might be more useful than the earlier stuff I said anyway lol. Fkin Falco

 

[quixotic]

Hey PP, I was listening on some of druggedfox's lessons and he thinks that against spacies you should overshoot with fsmash instead of dtilt. His reasoning was that you're going for a hard read anyways and fsmash has better reward/coverage. Thoughts?

It seems like rc dtilt is better against non spacies b/c it connects into grab better/sets up a more advantageous situation, but vs spacies the reward is not the same.

 

[Kotastic]

Speaking of Falco, I've been really testing out stuff with my movement and how my opponent responds. I find that this is significantly harder to do against Falco who sets the pace of the matchup because of his lasers, which against really good falcos they're trying to condition ME. Maybe I'm still not acting laser as fast as I can, but there's so many instances where I just feel locked in. How can I manipulate the Falco as best as I can if I can't dash freely? I often feel that while I have answers to many various situations, I feel like they're simply mixups by definition and doesn't feel like I'm manipulating the Falco very much other than hope that he does this or that. I guess what I'm trying to say is that marth falco interactions don't feel...intricate?

When I look at top 100 level marths vs falcos, despite Marth dominating Falco atm, I don't feel very impressed with their neutral against Falco other than that their punish game is 10x better than the Falcos currently. If that's really the case for the Falco mu to just simply have a death touch with an adequate neutral game and understanding of important laser mixups, then so be it I guess.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey PP, I was listening on some of druggedfox's lessons and he thinks that against spacies you should overshoot with fsmash instead of dtilt. His reasoning was that you're going for a hard read anyways and fsmash has better reward/coverage. Thoughts?

It seems like rc dtilt is better against non spacies b/c it connects into grab better/sets up a more advantageous situation, but vs spacies the reward is not the same.

Against Falco you don't really need to Dtilt but I wouldn't care for the Fsmash lag personally. If you think you have time to get Fsmash out then sure you can try it(it works for me fairly well when I do opt for it but I don't make it a staple). Shielding vs your approaches beats this, but I guess maybe you can adjust in time if they shield a little early? Against Fox, you don't want to over-Dtilt either but just enough to encourage him to keep jumping. From here I think Fsmash can be a good mixup since it also beats jumps. I tend to prefer rising Fair, but they all have their places.

Dtilt on hit gives fine reward vs spacies as compared to other characters imo.

Speaking of Falco, I've been really testing out stuff with my movement and how my opponent responds. I find that this is significantly harder to do against Falco who sets the pace of the matchup because of his lasers, which against really good falcos they're trying to condition ME. Maybe I'm still not acting laser as fast as I can, but there's so many instances where I just feel locked in. How can I manipulate the Falco as best as I can if I can't dash freely? I often feel that while I have answers to many various situations, I feel like they're simply mixups by definition and doesn't feel like I'm manipulating the Falco very much other than hope that he does this or that. I guess what I'm trying to say is that marth falco interactions don't feel...intricate?

When I look at top 100 level marths vs falcos, despite Marth dominating Falco atm, I don't feel very impressed with their neutral against Falco other than that their punish game is 10x better than the Falcos currently. If that's really the case for the Falco mu to just simply have a death touch with an adequate neutral game and understanding of important laser mixups, then so be it I guess.

Falco forces Marth to dash less, which I kind of like in a way. It means you must make every one count. You also have access to zoning with take laser jab for example. I certainly wouldn't say you can't manipulate him based on this, and of course including (Z)PS out of dashes or crouches and other small things like DA under lasers, etc.

That said, I found a lot more success against Falco when I framed it in my mind that I needed to slow down his lasers/make him change pace before I could control the manipulation. Maybe you'd find that useful.

 

[Blatant J]

@PPMD Just FYI there's been discussion in the Marth discord on this edgeguard of yours in the Marth discord, which resulted in these solutions: 1, 2, 3 ; not giving fox a chance to tech.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I'd prefer to let go Fair, edgehop Nair but do it over the edge and drifting into center so they can't tech(fine at higher percents and good at avoiding techs), and the side B variations are good too. Counter can be okay, and if I didn't have time to grab edge I could mix counter with grab edge or runoff Fair if I reacted properly to that height. I could mix those with Dtilt/Fsmash/Fair/Dair too which can also be good in varying circumstances.

 

[Zorcey]

Dr Peepee some more Falco questions:

- I struggle to control Falco, especially when he’s very aggro. I’m seeing the phase shift in Neutral that occurs when I shut down his heavy lasering/laser approaches, but beyond that I’m not exerting very much influence. I’m sure it has at least partly to do with not understanding how to use my dashes economically, but when I don’t dash I invite Falco to start lasering me again, because I’m not threatening much. I need to control him more with my sword, right? What should I be paying more attention to to learn that?

- This relates also to having trouble with situations where Falco is on top of you (don’t have footage of my own, but https://youtu.be/LzJOAV7xJCg (1:19-1:40) is a good example). PPU really flails under Westballz’s pressure, and I look pretty much the same. What should be done in a situation like this to reset/regain control?

-How exactly is Falco’s TR augmented by laser? It seems like the spacing I want fluctuates with when/where he lasers, and I’m not sure what to make of it. How do you tend to look at it?

- I feel like I become very predictable at lower percents, but I’m not sure how to avoid tunnel visioning on a grab. (M2K makes it work though lol.) Most of my tools (especially at low percents) besides grab beat Falco in the air, which means I have to get him up there/position myself to win the situation, but I can’t get him up there when/the way I want him up there, and lasers tend to keep me out of the positions I want (so maybe this one would be clarified with an answer to first question on this list, huh).

 

[Dr Peepee]

When Falco slows his lasering, that's precisely when you get to abuse more of your advantages over him. So that opens up more of your movement and sword, but movement especially. If you can get close enough to react and hit a laser, but far enough away to avoid a yolo Dair, then you put a load of pressure on Falco. The good news is this type of position becomes common when you disrupt lasers generally. It may help to really test your options here to see exactly where those positions are and what you can use/react to.

For the pressure, most of that is PPU doing a Fair and Wes just going around it then hitting him. So just don't do obvious Fairs and instead land and dash or land and jab or Utilt or whatever if he goes high. At 1:28 PPU is just mindlessly DD'ing in the corner after not getting punished for the second noob Fair in your clip and should obviously be trying to set up some Fair/Uair/Utilt/Bair threat instead of waiting and shielding. After rolling, he could have jabbed or pivot Faired against this laser. Then he WDs OOS and dashes away(he keeps dashing away every chance he gets) and then lunges back in with DA but Wes has all day to react to it. So just WD back then observe instead of instantly acting unless you confirm something during WD back. This is all without me saying he could do more shield SDI and play with how long he holds shield/using more WD OOS at specific times to manipulate his hurtbox as well.

Falco's TR increases briefly after a laser comes out as he gets frame advantage. You could also say your TR shrinks when his laser comes out for a moment. I tend to kind of alternate this thinking depending on whether I'm playing Marth or Falco, but as Marth I usually think of it shrinking my range. As long as I'm out of range of dash SH no FF Nair(or just at the tip of it) then I generally feel pretty safe though as Marth, which is pretty good compared to other matchups.

That last point just sounds like you need to learn positions/how to beat his options. I like dash side B to catch him out of laser startup, or dash Fair/walk or rc Fsmash OR dash attack. Dash Fair and side B are my favorites since Fair can be safe on shield and side B is so fast it's an easier reaction. Side B three hits does a lot of useful damage and helps you keep good position and still disrupts his laser game I find. So basically, you're trying to beat him attacking into you or you're trying to bop laser startup usually(or jabbing after laser hits, or PS'ing but whatever).

 

[Sacredtwin11]

So I was watching zain vs. jerry randomly and I noticed that at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1y-eGKFtK2I#t=19m18s, zain does a dash attack, which should have comboed into dair, but for some reason the dash attack pulled back slightly at the end, causing Zain to misspace his aerial. Earlier on, I heard the commentators mention this was a UCF setup and that reminded me that this has happened to me numerous times over netplay when I enabled UCF. Has anyone else had this issue?

 

[Zorcey]

When Falco slows his lasering, that's precisely when you get to abuse more of your advantages over him. So that opens up more of your movement and sword, but movement especially. If you can get close enough to react and hit a laser, but far enough away to avoid a yolo Dair, then you put a load of pressure on Falco. The good news is this type of position becomes common when you disrupt lasers generally. It may help to really test your options here to see exactly where those positions are and what you can use/react to.

For the pressure, most of that is PPU doing a Fair and Wes just going around it then hitting him. So just don't do obvious Fairs and instead land and dash or land and jab or Utilt or whatever if he goes high. At 1:28 PPU is just mindlessly DD'ing in the corner after not getting punished for the second noob Fair in your clip and should obviously be trying to set up some Fair/Uair/Utilt/Bair threat instead of waiting and shielding. After rolling, he could have jabbed or pivot Faired against this laser. Then he WDs OOS and dashes away(he keeps dashing away every chance he gets) and then lunges back in with DA but Wes has all day to react to it. So just WD back then observe instead of instantly acting unless you confirm something during WD back. This is all without me saying he could do more shield SDI and play with how long he holds shield/using more WD OOS at specific times to manipulate his hurtbox as well.

Falco's TR increases briefly after a laser comes out as he gets frame advantage. You could also say your TR shrinks when his laser comes out for a moment. I tend to kind of alternate this thinking depending on whether I'm playing Marth or Falco, but as Marth I usually think of it shrinking my range. As long as I'm out of range of dash SH no FF Nair(or just at the tip of it) then I generally feel pretty safe though as Marth, which is pretty good compared to other matchups.

That last point just sounds like you need to learn positions/how to beat his options. I like dash side B to catch him out of laser startup, or dash Fair/walk or rc Fsmash OR dash attack. Dash Fair and side B are my favorites since Fair can be safe on shield and side B is so fast it's an easier reaction. Side B three hits does a lot of useful damage and helps you keep good position and still disrupts his laser game I find. So basically, you're trying to beat him attacking into you or you're trying to bop laser startup usually(or jabbing after laser hits, or PS'ing but whatever).

The common theme through all this advice is definitely to find and work out positions like you've told me earlier, so it's good I'm working at that lol.

Okay, for this first one I put pressure on/influence Falco when I can react to/punish laser, but I'm also outside the threat range of his aerials. I need to find the positions where this is the case, and abuse them. They become more common when I disrupt lasers because I have more movement and have more control over my position. This makes sense.

Yeah, the flailing definitely seems to come from not understanding what to do, so then I'd make a bunch of thoughtless commitments that Falco can react to and punish. Again, isolate and understand the positions, because if I understand I can keep myself from doing things thoughtlessly/viscerally. This lack of understanding of position is probably why I do those obvious Fairs that can be reacted to and punished. Okay.

Falco's TR being extended for a moment after the laser comes out makes sense (because the laser can only go so far before he can't link it into something anymore), but I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of it shrinking Marth's TR, could you elaborate a little more? Marth's TR in this matchup would be determined by WD Jab and SH Fair, right? But once laser is out can I even threaten those?

This last one is position again, alright. I've been experimenting with all these options already, but I need to figure out when and why to use them. Hm... I've been thinking of positions as pretty much synonymous with spacings until now, but is this correct? What actually is the definition of "position" you use when you talk about them? It's distinct from a "situation" right (edgeguarding, techchasing, etc.)? As I'm looking at many different spacings between Marth and Falco, most look pretty much the same, which makes sense, but also makes me worry I may be missing something.

 

[quixotic]

Can you explain why you go for wd dtilt here?

https://youtu.be/k0hVm9xmssU?t=6m55s

 

[Dr Peepee]

The common theme through all this advice is definitely to find and work out positions like you've told me earlier, so it's good I'm working at that lol.

Okay, for this first one I put pressure on/influence Falco when I can react to/punish laser, but I'm also outside the threat range of his aerials. I need to find the positions where this is the case, and abuse them. They become more common when I disrupt lasers because I have more movement and have more control over my position. This makes sense.

Yeah, the flailing definitely seems to come from not understanding what to do, so then I'd make a bunch of thoughtless commitments that Falco can react to and punish. Again, isolate and understand the positions, because if I understand I can keep myself from doing things thoughtlessly/viscerally. This lack of understanding of position is probably why I do those obvious Fairs that can be reacted to and punished. Okay.

Falco's TR being extended for a moment after the laser comes out makes sense (because the laser can only go so far before he can't link it into something anymore), but I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of it shrinking Marth's TR, could you elaborate a little more? Marth's TR in this matchup would be determined by WD Jab and SH Fair, right? But once laser is out can I even threaten those?

This last one is position again, alright. I've been experimenting with all these options already, but I need to figure out when and why to use them. Hm... I've been thinking of positions as pretty much synonymous with spacings until now, but is this correct? What actually is the definition of "position" you use when you talk about them? It's distinct from a "situation" right (edgeguarding, techchasing, etc.)? As I'm looking at many different spacings between Marth and Falco, most look pretty much the same, which makes sense, but also makes me worry I may be missing something.

Marth's TR is....sure those moves, maybe DA. I just realized Marth's TR may change entirely based on a laser being out or not and what other moves you might want to use lol. I think Fair is the only constant there, so run Fair or WD Jab are probably good constants. Once laser is out, you can no longer do those UNLESS Falco doesn't abuse frame advantage with an approach. If he does extra dashes or another laser then you have those options. However, if Falco does abuse advantage and approach, you can pivot grab or jab(at most spacings, if too close then you just have to shield or do some outplay).

A position is a spacing, but there is more to it. What happened just before the position matters. If Falco drops a combo and you both reset at TR it's very different from the start of a match at TR. Also, the last time you both were in that situation, what happened? What about with the same position plus similar previous circumstances? What about percent? What about stage positioning, or you are cornered instead of him? While this does sound overwhelming, I can tell you right now you can often find one or two factors that seem to motivate most people in many situations, but if you just keep looking and testing these variables you'll figure it out. It might be easier to say you just need to examine a position and when going over it a lot if there's something you don't understand then one of those variables might be the answer.

Can you explain why you go for wd dtilt here?

https://youtu.be/k0hVm9xmssU?t=6m55s

It looks like I did it to intercept his approaching Dtilt he might have done. In hindsight I do not think this was the right play, as he had just jumped as I dashed forward, meaning he was more likely to jump again if I actually committed.

 

[Kotastic]

Hey all. I've been labbing a lot for Marth CGs followups against Fox on FD while factoring in SDI stuff Fox can do. My goal for making this list is to pivot grab as minimally as possible while having true links for maximized guaranteed damage output to another regrab or followup. I will also work on a Falco one asap, but here's the list. I tested this in 20XX 4.07. Feel free to test this out or point out stuff that I may have done wrong!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m3eJJju8ecnCUVkbWaPrRppcZVegAFUIAPtmXvtIt08/edit?usp=sharing

 

[spinalwolf]

What are your thoughts on the Marth vs Yoshi MU? Do you think the MU is even or in one of the characters favor.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey all. I've been labbing a lot for Marth CGs followups against Fox on FD while factoring in SDI stuff Fox can do. My goal for making this list is to pivot grab as minimally as possible while having true links for maximized guaranteed damage output to another regrab or followup. I will also work on a Falco one asap, but here's the list. I tested this in 20XX 4.07. Feel free to test this out or point out stuff that I may have done wrong!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m3eJJju8ecnCUVkbWaPrRppcZVegAFUIAPtmXvtIt08/edit?usp=sharing

Kadano was trying to work on one a while ago but gave up. Maybe it's worth asking him what nuances gave him trouble? I know staling and slight DIs and some varying degrees of input with different side results are part of the issue.

What are your thoughts on the Marth vs Yoshi MU? Do you think the MU is even or in one of the characters favor.

Based on my preliminary data I think Marth wins or it's even at worst. Marth outranges Yoshi, juggles him pretty well which leads to wonky early kills and is generally good at catching him out of DJC to kill, edgeguards decently if you know armor %s and waiting to hit Yoshi after armor ends, etc. Grab is harder to convert off of but still quite valuable, and Marth not having to swing to apply pressure is great vs Yoshi's super good shield. Also FD is a free win, which means you can probably work PS to be an easier win than other levels too.

 

[Sylarius]

I've noticed you never do wavedash backward (while facing them) -> wavedash forward -> dtilt. I don't use it too often but occasionally in the ditto/when trying to bait them to come at me after seeing me wavedash backwards/after seeing I'm pretty far away after the wavedash backwards and thinking I can wavedash forward dtilt as a poke. Maybe it has uses, but is that something you think generally one should avoid or is outclassed in those situations?

Edit: Also, I've seen you use usmash against Armada vs his side-b as Fox twice, at Evo 2015 here: https://youtu.be/O-p3YAMJSEY?t=186 and at Genesis 3. Both times it sourspotted and you got a tipper utilt afterwards. May I ask if you were hoping to usmash sweet spot both times?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I think that's a good option actually and it's something I would've done more of had I been able to play regularly.

And no I think I just tried to Utilt really quickly lol but those instances of Usmash did make me consider wanting to play with Usmash more at other times.

 

[quixotic]

PP how can I take advantage of an opponent who stands still/doesn't react to my long dash forwards?

 

[Dr Peepee]

People that stand still are still making a decision. Once I learned that it changed a lot for me. They are saying they think I won't come right in or immediately threaten them when I move forward, so I need to make them respect my dash.

 

[SnailManBigHitta]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTW83L6h-D8
what do you think of the way that shroomed played this matchup. Is there anything he should've done differently, is it good to study, etc.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Shroomed in general is a pretty sloppy player, so I wouldn't take much from him if I were you, but some of his neutral you could maybe take.

 

[AirFair]

Following up on quixotic's question about standing, do you believe standing in between doing strings of actions help you adjust/not move excessively? I'm trying to start incorporating some small waits with standing and stalling on my longer dashes that can help me adjust to my opponent. It seems pretty useful to me, although I might not be standing as often once I have a better idea of my opponent's tendencies.

 

[Kellen]

Hi PPMD!

I often struggle to edgeguard Fox when they are recovering above the stage, still have a double jump, and are quite far from the stage (sometimes in the magnifying glass) similar to the situation here: https://youtu.be/XoXwL0stG58?t=122

What is your process like when edgeguarding a fox recovery that is above the stage who still possesses a double jump? I try to go out there and hit them with bair to bair but when I jump out there, they immediately side B back onto the stage. If I stay on stage, I can hit incoming Up B with fair if they go low but they can also go high and drift away from me as they fall. Sometimes I grab the ledge so they can't UP B towards it and then I try to intercept once they have committed to UP B but sometimes they go for the ledge anyway and I whiff. What should I be looking for when they spend their double jump?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Following up on quixotic's question about standing, do you believe standing in between doing strings of actions help you adjust/not move excessively? I'm trying to start incorporating some small waits with standing and stalling on my longer dashes that can help me adjust to my opponent. It seems pretty useful to me, although I might not be standing as often once I have a better idea of my opponent's tendencies.

Yep that's exactly what those waits and standing can do. I think they're a good idea. Feeling you HAVE to move or HAVE to be fast all the time is a modern problem and certainly not something a Marth should be considering.

Hi PPMD!

I often struggle to edgeguard Fox when they are recovering above the stage, still have a double jump, and are quite far from the stage (sometimes in the magnifying glass) similar to the situation here: https://youtu.be/XoXwL0stG58?t=122

What is your process like when edgeguarding a fox recovery that is above the stage who still possesses a double jump? I try to go out there and hit them with bair to bair but when I jump out there, they immediately side B back onto the stage. If I stay on stage, I can hit incoming Up B with fair if they go low but they can also go high and drift away from me as they fall. Sometimes I grab the ledge so they can't UP B towards it and then I try to intercept once they have committed to UP B but sometimes they go for the ledge anyway and I whiff. What should I be looking for when they spend their double jump?

Yeah if they're that far out then you can't really go out there. You should be ready to WD to edge vs low side B and otherwise to jab/Dtilt side B. If they're that far they probably will just up-B though. From this up-B it can depend on where they start it. In your explanation you mention going high and drifting away. Well if you back up a little as they go up(walk or WD back as you see it or just before they take off if you predict it) then you can walk/SH drift with them and then hit them with Uair/Fair just before they hit the ground. Uair can lead to a Ken Combo vs Fsmash mixup, and Fair can be a DI mixup as well. You can also just Fsmash or Utilt depending on percent and other factors. It's hard to say more without specifics. If you have a clip of them choosing options you struggle with(you did fine in the clip you linked) then I can help but otherwise there's just too much nuance.