Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Dr Peepee]

Certainly the more people you "let down" or the bigger the stakes or the worse your image is after a mistake and so on, the bigger a challenge can be, but only in a way. If you train compassion like a muscle and you train your body and mind to rise to challenges and to figure out how to look at problems as obstacles/opportunities instead of attacks against you, then the size or shape of the problem does not matter. In a way, grinding and climbing in Melee now reflects that more than ever. As there are more levels to climb and more exposure as you do, you get mentally tested at each step. This ensures you have to keep reinforcing your mental and physical efforts or you fall apart quickly. By the time you get to Armada's level, you shouldn't have an excuse for taking losses badly, though that doesn't mean you won't suffer(or suffer hard) if you lose. It just means you won't stay there.

The choice is yours.

 

[Kotastic]

I'm trying to think of ways to solo practice vs. Puff and have some questions regarding Puff's setups to crouch

https://youtu.be/RDiSmAF8BrM?t=18s
-I thought that in this setup, Marth is able to pivot grab a late approaching bair from Puff. Did Ether mess up, or is it a legitimate trap Puff has? You went on to talk about visual cue baits Puff has. Does she have others? When is puff likely to do the crouch bait? I find that puff is likely to do it when Marth is cornered or as shield pressure.

Suppose that I condition the puff to not use an aerial --> crouch anymore from waiting (dash past grab), callout with dair/late fair, or d-tilt. What is she likely to do next?

Also other than the conventional RPS of puff doing fadeback/approaching bair and her crouch tricks, I have next to no idea how to practice this mu. Advice?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Well he was supposed to grab Puff out of the air for the pivot grab thing. Also he just dash grabbed instead of pivot grabbing. Dash grabbing the crouch is good, but she can't be grabbed in her initial land/crouch thingy which creates a lot of painful ambiguity at times. Puff often crouches after landing if she's worried about mid percent grabs that could kill, if you grab often, if she's kind of close to you or on your shield of course and also the corner thing you mentioned. But just in general I see Puff's crouch/WD back a lot after landing from the air and especially when they see you moving in.

Puff may aerial dash attack or wd back instead of just crouch. She could shield instead of crouch sometimes but based on what options you listed I doubt she'd do that.

I'm guessing you mean neutral practice? If you can, see the typical jump + weave patterns Hbox uses and practice vs each of those. Adding in stuff like Nairs from FH/jumps and her land into WD back vs crouch vs dash attack vs shield is worth messing with too, as is any pattern you might see Hbox do when Marth is in a juggle/edgeguard situation.

 

[quixotic]

Hey pp, I realized that I have a bad habit of doing a foxtrot away from my opponent after escaping a combo/getting hit/being too close in general, which often puts me at a bad range. I'm trying to move away from my opponent but I can't get to the ideal range in time.

It happens 3 times in 10 seconds here:
https://youtu.be/BRoCOkqLqZ0?t=1m34s

What options could I use instead?

 

[HolidayMaker]

How do you feel about jab vs Falcon nair? My experience matches your opinion that side b doesn't interact as favorably as some people say, but jab tends to work better for me.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey pp, I realized that I have a bad habit of doing a foxtrot away from my opponent after escaping a combo/getting hit/being too close in general, which often puts me at a bad range. I'm trying to move away from my opponent but I can't get to the ideal range in time.

It happens 3 times in 10 seconds here:
https://youtu.be/BRoCOkqLqZ0?t=1m34s

What options could I use instead?

You seemed to get to an okay range to me, but you suffer from a problem I did where I expected to be fully safe then/maybe move back in. Double foxtrot away, pivot WD back, pivot retreating SH(or pivot WD back SH if you need to go super far lol), dash back WD away or vice versa are all good options to put reasonable distance between you and an opponent in a way you can face them and use options more usefully. WD away is also often more useful generally than dash away when you're that close since you're holding down and can dash out of it and you go farther.

How do you feel about jab vs Falcon nair? My experience matches your opinion that side b doesn't interact as favorably as some people say, but jab tends to work better for me.

I never thought it worked that well for me either, but there are probably some good ranges for it I imagine. If you have a video of the interaction then I'd be interested in seeing it.

 

[Kotastic]

I'm having trouble dealing with Peach's FC aerials at the height where you can't d-tilt her in neutral stance. I find that approaching nair and fair works haphazardly and sometimes trades. The only reliable methods I found that cleanly beat Peach's FC aerials are pivot fairs which I can't do consistently, FH fair, or callout with f-smash. I don't like doing FH fair in center because it could leave me in a bad situation, and at the same time I want to scout out Peach's turnips as well. What are some soft commit options I can do to consistently beat Peach's FC aerials while not succumbing to DA/turnip pull?

Also, I find that if I let Peach land after the FC, especially when she fades back a bit, she has options like dash back, DA, spotdodge, shield, and other options I'm probably not aware of that I find is just a losing position for Marth. I think clips of M2K vs Armada best exemplifies my current problem
https://youtu.be/MmlMF5p_ZMY?t=10m27s
https://youtu.be/MmlMF5p_ZMY?t=10m35s
https://youtu.be/MmlMF5p_ZMY?t=10m56s
https://youtu.be/MmlMF5p_ZMY?t=11m40s

Advice?

 

[maclo4]

How do you feel about jab vs Falcon nair? My experience matches your opinion that side b doesn't interact as favorably as some people say, but jab tends to work better for me.

I agree it feels like jab actually is easier to space right against falcons nair. Side b is good cause you can use it out of dash tho

Also this might be general knowledge but PSA: if falcons are expecting you to fsmash while edguarding then ken combo becomes a super good mixup. I just learned about this the other day and its so helpful

 

[Dr Peepee]

I'm having trouble dealing with Peach's FC aerials at the height where you can't d-tilt her in neutral stance. I find that approaching nair and fair works haphazardly and sometimes trades. The only reliable methods I found that cleanly beat Peach's FC aerials are pivot fairs which I can't do consistently, FH fair, or callout with f-smash. I don't like doing FH fair in center because it could leave me in a bad situation, and at the same time I want to scout out Peach's turnips as well. What are some soft commit options I can do to consistently beat Peach's FC aerials while not succumbing to DA/turnip pull?

Also, I find that if I let Peach land after the FC, especially when she fades back a bit, she has options like dash back, DA, spotdodge, shield, and other options I'm probably not aware of that I find is just a losing position for Marth. I think clips of M2K vs Armada best exemplifies my current problem
https://youtu.be/MmlMF5p_ZMY?t=10m27s
https://youtu.be/MmlMF5p_ZMY?t=10m35s
https://youtu.be/MmlMF5p_ZMY?t=10m56s
https://youtu.be/MmlMF5p_ZMY?t=11m40s

Advice?

I think getting her FCs coming in vs in place/away is one important difference, and spacing when she starts is another. Firstly though, you're probably not beating her float away directly and will have to play to beat the next option(s). In place is pretty tough too, but you can Dtilt her Bair landing at least, or sometimes drift in and Fair her landing for pressure at minimum. However, this isn't always reliable since you don't know when Peach will FC. Armada usually waits for the Marth to move first before he FCs, because otherwise he has to do the roll away after Bair'ing in like he does in the last clip you link. In that clip, it's also worth noting that M2K dashes in for a very long time before retreating and this encourages Armada to Bair in to hit or get on shield ideally. If M2K dashes back and dashes in grab, he will catch Armada before he could DA and it isn't entirely clear if he could reliably punish in any other way either. M2K punishes this particular drift in FC Bair a lot of times with grab, but sometimes Armada does it from far away/drifts in a little so he can roll away or M2K just messes up the timing.

ANYWAY, the other three clips are M2K swinging first and usually poorly and then Armada moves in. The first clip is a little different in that M2K basically called out what Armada would do and would hit the extended hurtbox on Bair, but was just slightly early. I don't think this is typically a viable strategy but it's not something he goes for often either so I guess it's an okay mixup?

All of that said, if you do the pivot grab thing you can handle her Nair/Bair fine if she drifts in, and Fair in place or Dtilt in place will beat that plus certain Fairs in. If you walk forward a little or jump forward slightly, you can Fair/Nair on inward aerials that are spaced farther away, or even FCs mostly in place. You usually won't get direct hits on the more in place ones, but they also won't really threaten you either. You aim to either snipe her out of the air like you've already done, or you fake doing that and let her FC early/in at you and then pivot grab/late Fair/Dtilt that. You can even Dtilt/Fair the space in front of you after she lands if you're worried about DA, though dash back also works even when fairly close since you pull away from her DA quite well.

If you want to mix your aerial snipe vs landing/later option coverage, you can do both out of dash in really. You can prime this with dash back as well if you'd like, or just stand and then go for the dash in. Also remember, if you blow up DA even kind of consistently then she will be discouraged from using it so be okay with playing in that space some. To discourage DA, hold down if you're uncertain, or just dash away and hold the dash away if you see her start coming in(or just switch to holding down/diagonally down and in to tank a weaker part of the DA I guess). And again if she fades away you play more for position usually.

I probably could have simplified this but oh well, let me know if it made sense and works for you.

 

[Kotastic]

"If you want to mix your aerial snipe vs landing/later option coverage, you can do both out of dash in really. You can prime this with dash back as well if you'd like, or just stand and then go for the dash in"
I don't think I understand this fully. Are you saying that with my dash forward, it has the threats you listed to beat her FC aerials, and with that it makes my dash back stronger?

 

[Dr Peepee]

It can make your dash back stronger if you tie it to dash in, let's say by dashing back right when Peach jumps or is at a certain spacing in her float. You don't need to worry about the dash back part so much if you get the dash in mixup part. And you can't beat all of her FCs such as her fadeaway Bair directly(when she's even somewhat spaced anyway), among the other things I kind of stipulated, but otherwise yes what you said.

 

[Chron]

Is SH dair or WD off into jumping dair a good option for early kills on a missed sweet spot or should I just stick with dtilt/fsmash?

When I'm recovering high, if they are waiting for me near the edge I like to do reverse side-b in the air to make them whiff, then fair them into a combo. I try to only do it once or twice a match when they aren't expecting or is it to risky to do at all?

(Live really close to you, hope I see you around sometime. )

 

[HolidayMaker]

Alright so, if you dislike dtilt, jab, and side b, do you use/how do you use any hitboxes when trying to advance/take space away from falcon? Jumping near him is extremely risky, and you obviously can't always empty dash/WD in.

 

[Kotastic]

Alright, I wanted to ask a follow-up question regarding dashing in/out about Peach since I had a tournament to attend: Why exactly does dashing in makes my dash back stronger? Is it because if I establish my threats with forward dash with a well-placed rising fair, it encourages Peach to DA/shield?

Also, I've been having issues with my punish game regarding spacies. Apologies that this is super broad, but just in general I find that my edgeguards and punish game have a poor conversion rate to killing. M2K and PPU don't have the most perfect flowcharty punish game, yet they are the most efficient in killing spacies in many scenarios. I guess my struggle would be similar to Rishi where I have a solid understanding with punish/edgeguard but often result to the spacie living way longer than they should anyways, aka not killing. Do you think this would improve over time or anything you would recommend?

Additionally, I have trouble containing Fox when he's cornered. A friend of mine suggest to always scout out the roll and react (?) to everything else Fox does. I've been thinking doing fade-back rising fair, but idk tbh. Inputs?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Is SH dair or WD off into jumping dair a good option for early kills on a missed sweet spot or should I just stick with dtilt/fsmash?

When I'm recovering high, if they are waiting for me near the edge I like to do reverse side-b in the air to make them whiff, then fair them into a combo. I try to only do it once or twice a match when they aren't expecting or is it to risky to do at all?

(Live really close to you, hope I see you around sometime. )

Yeah those options can be good.

If it's working, then maybe it's an alright mixup. Kinda neat idea anyway.

And yeah I'm sure we will see each other around =p

Alright so, if you dislike dtilt, jab, and side b, do you use/how do you use any hitboxes when trying to advance/take space away from falcon? Jumping near him is extremely risky, and you obviously can't always empty dash/WD in.

I use Fair and pivot/shield grab mainly. Side B was always pretty sparing to me but once in a while I could use it too. I only do these attacks once I've confirmed he's attacking me, and don't just throw anything out. You can't afford to swing much vs Falcon. The only thing I swing with first is Dtilt very occasionally to make him not wait around to throw out moves, and Fair if he's cornered.

Alright, I wanted to ask a follow-up question regarding dashing in/out about Peach since I had a tournament to attend: Why exactly does dashing in makes my dash back stronger? Is it because if I establish my threats with forward dash with a well-placed rising fair, it encourages Peach to DA/shield?

Also, I've been having issues with my punish game regarding spacies. Apologies that this is super broad, but just in general I find that my edgeguards and punish game have a poor conversion rate to killing. M2K and PPU don't have the most perfect flowcharty punish game, yet they are the most efficient in killing spacies in many scenarios. I guess my struggle would be similar to Rishi where I have a solid understanding with punish/edgeguard but often result to the spacie living way longer than they should anyways, aka not killing. Do you think this would improve over time or anything you would recommend?

Additionally, I have trouble containing Fox when he's cornered. A friend of mine suggest to always scout out the roll and react (?) to everything else Fox does. I've been thinking doing fade-back rising fair, but idk tbh. Inputs?

Dash back and dash in are tied together, basically. But let's say you always do a certain type of dash back before your main dash in mixup. This dash back now gives extra manipulation to your dash in, and if you wanted them to respond to your movement earlier to give you more time to respond when you're dashing in but a little farther away, you would do this.

Find more ways to set up 50/50s in your combos/tech chases and that will help a lot. Stuff like Fsmash vs Utilt when they're on a platform or Fsmash vs Ken Combo when you Uthrow them near the edge. Besides that, work very hard on edgeguards.

Fair is super good vs cornered Fox since it's strong vs shield, hold down, jump, and beats his moves. He can't dash back. You don't need to retreating Fair often, but it can depend on just how cornered the Fox is. Maybe that is a place to start experimenting. Also, you need to remember that since they can't move back, they have to deal with your moves more. Abusing your range advantage, especially on smaller stages, likely means you don't need to DD as much(and certainly nothing excessive).

 

[quixotic]

https://youtu.be/K6E6Zp5sYvs?t=1m20s

If you dashed back here and noticed that Armada was still lying on the ground/didn't do the getup attack, where would you position yourself for the tech chase?

 

[Kotastic]

I just had some sort of epiphany when I was practicing Marth Fox friendlies with someone. At some point, we started discussing moves with intent and doing actions that trigger responses in neutral stances, going on tangent on how I disliked the RPS terms, recognizing mixups, and fixating on options because while in technicality it's not wrong, it encourages linear thinking that doesn't take into account the influences exerted on the opponent. We would often forget how we won neutral exchanges because the punish sequences and the advantageous/disadvantageous states lasts so long, so after a stock was taken, we did an exercise where we paused to truly reflect our first neutral interaction that led to punish and generally discounted advantageous states and execution tests, and doing so made our practice session far more productive than before. I referenced you a lot for many of our discussions from the myriads of advice you've given in the past months, and I think everything you've said in the basis of your neutral game theorycraft is starting to come together for me. The whole dash actions and how my opponent will respond to it based on the threats it presents. I gave him an example that him short hopping presents the threat of the common SH nair option, and how from his action he could waveland and d-tilt/grab/whatever to beat the common Marth counter-option response to dash back against the SH nair option. Hell, even being just right next to the opponent will create a response, no matter what character I am.

This opens up another perspective of Melee to me that I'm fascinated to explore more upon. Please, correct me if I'm wrong in any of the segments I went off about. I'm somewhat positive that this is your basis of shadowboxing. And with this, I have some questions I would like to ask regarding actions that triggers responses.

I was continuing to play friendlies with my friend who has an Armada-esque playstyle where he tends to favor run-up shield. So when I was right up close to him within WD range at some point, I kinda just had the feeling that he would shield, and we discussed that me just being there close triggered his action to shield. My question is that because Marth has a large effective range, would just simply being within WD distance to the opponent without really dash dancing or wavedashing be enough to trigger responses in many scenarios? I kinda don't have the balls to reliably do this against opponents I don't know well, and I also somewhat fear the potential option that my opponent will just attack me straight-up and pull a reversal.

Also, I realize that I have inherent weaknesses when it comes to projectiles. I remember wanting to switch characters when I first fought against a good Falco because of how predictable it made me. Now of course I know more mixups, and I feel like I don't make too many obvious cues when Falco lasers me in many scenarios. However, I can't exactly say the same for characters like Peach turnip farming me, Samus missile spam, or god forbid Link projectile barraging me. How can I reduce making myself less predictable in matchups where projectiles are inevitable?

 

[iCrash]

Are there ways to quickly improve in teams, as Marth or as any character?
Is it worth trying to 'git gud' at teams?

Just a random side thought. I like watching teams, but is it something worth investing a lot of time into?

 

[capusa27]

It's that time of year again where Reddit tries to critique tier lists. Read at your own risks, optimists.

--Fellow Marth player.

 

[maclo4]

At low percents against fast fallers/heavy characters, should I just take the hits I can get until they build up to percents where I can knock them down? Ive been getting punished a ton for hitting people with fair at 0 and they just take the hit then counterattack or something and Im starting to realize I need to be a lot less greedy/more careful with trying to combo at that low of percents

 

[Dr Peepee]

https://youtu.be/K6E6Zp5sYvs?t=1m20s

If you dashed back here and noticed that Armada was still lying on the ground/didn't do the getup attack, where would you position yourself for the tech chase?

If I wanted to stop, normally I'd stop a little in front of him so I can easily shield grab but not get shield poked by GUA. However, in this position I could also have stopped in tipper Fsmash range since his roll back isn't fully available since he's pretty cornered.

I just had some sort of epiphany when I was practicing Marth Fox friendlies with someone. At some point, we started discussing moves with intent and doing actions that trigger responses in neutral stances, going on tangent on how I disliked the RPS terms, recognizing mixups, and fixating on options because while in technicality it's not wrong, it encourages linear thinking that doesn't take into account the influences exerted on the opponent. We would often forget how we won neutral exchanges because the punish sequences and the advantageous/disadvantageous states lasts so long, so after a stock was taken, we did an exercise where we paused to truly reflect our first neutral interaction that led to punish and generally discounted advantageous states and execution tests, and doing so made our practice session far more productive than before. I referenced you a lot for many of our discussions from the myriads of advice you've given in the past months, and I think everything you've said in the basis of your neutral game theorycraft is starting to come together for me. The whole dash actions and how my opponent will respond to it based on the threats it presents. I gave him an example that him short hopping presents the threat of the common SH nair option, and how from his action he could waveland and d-tilt/grab/whatever to beat the common Marth counter-option response to dash back against the SH nair option. Hell, even being just right next to the opponent will create a response, no matter what character I am.

This opens up another perspective of Melee to me that I'm fascinated to explore more upon. Please, correct me if I'm wrong in any of the segments I went off about. I'm somewhat positive that this is your basis of shadowboxing. And with this, I have some questions I would like to ask regarding actions that triggers responses.

I was continuing to play friendlies with my friend who has an Armada-esque playstyle where he tends to favor run-up shield. So when I was right up close to him within WD range at some point, I kinda just had the feeling that he would shield, and we discussed that me just being there close triggered his action to shield. My question is that because Marth has a large effective range, would just simply being within WD distance to the opponent without really dash dancing or wavedashing be enough to trigger responses in many scenarios? I kinda don't have the balls to reliably do this against opponents I don't know well, and I also somewhat fear the potential option that my opponent will just attack me straight-up and pull a reversal.

Also, I realize that I have inherent weaknesses when it comes to projectiles. I remember wanting to switch characters when I first fought against a good Falco because of how predictable it made me. Now of course I know more mixups, and I feel like I don't make too many obvious cues when Falco lasers me in many scenarios. However, I can't exactly say the same for characters like Peach turnip farming me, Samus missile spam, or god forbid Link projectile barraging me. How can I reduce making myself less predictable in matchups where projectiles are inevitable?

You're on the right track!

Well you can't accurately predict exactly what someone will do without gaining information first, but you can make guesses that they will do something, and even their first action(s) will give you more insight. Being in range is enough to force responses from many players, but exactly what those responses are can vary. You need to trust in Marth's ability to abuse this range though. The more you learn positions/options, practice, and even control how you get into position gives you so much control and calm in them. Put the fear of the sword in their hearts.

I'm not sure what you use to beat projectiles, but that could be one helpful place. Another would be to figure out how to punish the startup/end lag of projectiles in a given position. Another still is how to keep at least neutral advantage while they're out. So if Link can throw a bomb at you and then attack you after you shield, you either want to attack him first/in his bomb throw animation, or avoid the bomb on shield scenario(or be far enough away to the point he can't really get set up). Basically, learn positions and options. Excessive movement may be an issue here, as that opens up more control for the projectile users.

Are there ways to quickly improve in teams, as Marth or as any character?
Is it worth trying to 'git gud' at teams?

Just a random side thought. I like watching teams, but is it something worth investing a lot of time into?

Teams can help your singles some since it rewards simplicity more than singles can sometimes. Focus on sandwiching and team combos especially off of grab, move very minimally and swing a little more.

Teams is awesome, but if you're not all about it like singles then it's no big deal. Giving it a fair shot before writing it off is okay though.

It's that time of year again where Reddit tries to critique tier lists. Read at your own risks, optimists.

--Fellow Marth player.

merf bad pikka 2 gud

At low percents against fast fallers/heavy characters, should I just take the hits I can get until they build up to percents where I can knock them down? Ive been getting punished a ton for hitting people with fair at 0 and they just take the hit then counterattack or something and Im starting to realize I need to be a lot less greedy/more careful with trying to combo at that low of percents

Fair is MUCH better air to air than air to ground especially early on. If you do want to Fair a grounded opponent, it should pretty much be Fair in place or slight drift in, and quite low to the ground. You can do it otherwise if you think they won't hold down or they will shield, but that's at your own risk.

 

[Kotastic]

Just to confirm if I'm going on the right track with this: I was testing conditioning against my Fox friend. I used my first two stocks to gain some information on what he would do if I just stand there, not moving at all, but within WD d-tilt distance. The first two stocks, he would do drill to beat my supposed WD d-tilt, and I just accepted it. For my last two stocks, I started taking advantage of the fact that he will drill, and I dash backed grab, leading to a fat punish. I would continue to provoke him to drill as I threw out shallow d-tilts here and there (feinting I think?), so the dash back grab worked more reliably as I just stood there. I then revealed to him after the game was over that I conditioned him to drill me when I'm just standing there, and he didn't even consciously notice! Taking into account how I won neutral interactions from actions that provoke a response is still something I'm somewhat a novice in now that I'm seriously thinking about this part of the game. Still in the right track?

We were later discussing why the top players are so good at the game, and we postulated that it's this whole concept I was talking about only much deeper. Only a couple days ago, we forgot how we even won/lost a true neutral interaction before it dragged to long punish game sequences and being in ad/disadvantageous states like being cornered. Of course, having an optimized punish game is required to win as less neutral interactions as possible, but we concluded that such true neutral interactions isn't a result of random RPS, it's the opponent trying to manipulate the other opponent to get their opening. It's perhaps what separates the really good players to the top players, and only perhaps at top level is it perhaps a mixup, but it's a long road to go and that might not even be true. Is my postulation at least somewhat close to correct?

Also, I can see why you emphasize so much on simplicity when regarding dashes. I'm struggling to provoke responses for me just standing there. For now, dashing requires too much brain power at the moment for what it entails and how my opponent will respond to it. I can't imagine what 5 dash dances would even seriously entail without deep understanding on what dashes even entail. I think this is seriously key for stepping up neutral game in general, and I'll let you know if I get significant results from this.

 

[iCrash]

What about spacing and movement in teams? How would you say that compares to singles?

 

[Zorcey]

Dr Peepee going to do some soul-bearing here lol. I'm currently constructing my plan to prepare for Shine: my goal is at least 63rd, with 1-2 Top 100 upsets. (I really don't know if this is a lofty goal - I've only been playing for 2 years - and I have this mixture of raw determination, fear of failure, excitement, and embarrassment at my intentions.) With this larger goal about 6 months away in mind, I have to set smaller goals that will keep me on track, but this is where I'm stuck. As is often the case with me, I'm overwhelmed by how much I still have to learn, which leads to unfocused "a little bit of everything" practice that isn't helpful. I can't afford to waste any more of my valuable practice time like this, but knowing I should focus doesn't fix the underlying problem; I just want someone to give me some direction and tell me where to start, where to direct my focus. I'm trying to work out some kind of syllabus here but I'm confronted by the uncomfortable fact that I don't know what I'm doing.

If I had to try and explain how learning a matchup should probably be "tiered," it'd go from general > specific, looking something like:

- Fundamentals (what are all the fundamentals in Melee? They would be things that apply to every MU, so TR, out-fighting, in-fighting, tech, movement, ledge options, shield pressure, OoS options, basic mixups, and adaption would all be examples; but is this comprehensive?)

- Threats (what does each character want, and how do they get it/with what moves? how do their threats change with stage, percent, and situation? how can each character be conditioned so they're susceptible to these threats? how can these threats be avoided by them? what does this imply about how each character should play around the other?)

- Threat Range (what is the range of each character's farthest reaching threat? when should this range be played inside? outside? can you react when outside TR, but must guess inside? as percent and stage changes, how does this affect TR and how characters' threats interact?)

- Common Situations (what situations are most common in each MU? why do these situations come up, and how are they related to threats? what is each character's typical answer to each of these situations? what are their mixups? how are those mixups beaten? how many options can each character cover at once? which options should be covered most often? is the situation a read or reaction? should this situation be avoided, or exploited?)

- Combos (what are my combos against my opponent's character? how do these combos change with percent/stage/stage positioning? what are their DI options? how do I cover these options? can I cover all of them? can I react to their DI, or do I have to commit to my followup early? should I pick a different combo in that case? what other combos are there? what are my opponent's character's combos? how do their combos change with percent/stage/stage positioning? what are my DI options? will they help me escape the combo? can they cover all my options, or only some of them? what is the best combo in situation X?)

- DIs (what DI is best in situation X? are there multiple solutions? which is my opponent most likely to cover? can I SDI out in this situation and set up a punish?)

- Edgeguards (are they recovering high, mid, or low? are they trying to sweetspot? do they have a DJ? how many options do they have from their position? which are they most likely to pick? how many can I cover? can I react, or do I have to read them?)

Of course there's some overlap in these, because they're terribly vague, and a lot of them change dramatically with percents in every matchup (another huge reason I feel paralyzed, because percents increase situational variables exponentially), but this is my conception. However, I don't trust myself (which I recognize as very problematic), or any of my beliefs about the game, so it's difficult for me to try to organize my practice around my own ideas. As a result, I end up with no organization and unfocused practice. It's definitely a product of the fear of all the variables in every situation, but I simply am at a loss for what to do about it.

When trying to learn situations and I take in too much at once, I also have the problem of lapses in focus due to not trusting myself. I try to stay positive and argue that what I'm doing will yield results, but I can't bring myself to actually believe that what I'm doing will be helpful, because 1) I know my tendency is to take on too much and then not understand much/any of it; 2) I don't have the results to bolster my confidence in my practice. I get that I need to get around these to proceed and succeed, but how? I can only address the first of these problems until Shine itself comes around, and if I don't have the knowledge to determine what is best to study when, and how to structure my learning, I can't formulate a plan.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Just to confirm if I'm going on the right track with this: I was testing conditioning against my Fox friend. I used my first two stocks to gain some information on what he would do if I just stand there, not moving at all, but within WD d-tilt distance. The first two stocks, he would do drill to beat my supposed WD d-tilt, and I just accepted it. For my last two stocks, I started taking advantage of the fact that he will drill, and I dash backed grab, leading to a fat punish. I would continue to provoke him to drill as I threw out shallow d-tilts here and there (feinting I think?), so the dash back grab worked more reliably as I just stood there. I then revealed to him after the game was over that I conditioned him to drill me when I'm just standing there, and he didn't even consciously notice! Taking into account how I won neutral interactions from actions that provoke a response is still something I'm somewhat a novice in now that I'm seriously thinking about this part of the game. Still in the right track?

We were later discussing why the top players are so good at the game, and we postulated that it's this whole concept I was talking about only much deeper. Only a couple days ago, we forgot how we even won/lost a true neutral interaction before it dragged to long punish game sequences and being in ad/disadvantageous states like being cornered. Of course, having an optimized punish game is required to win as less neutral interactions as possible, but we concluded that such true neutral interactions isn't a result of random RPS, it's the opponent trying to manipulate the other opponent to get their opening. It's perhaps what separates the really good players to the top players, and only perhaps at top level is it perhaps a mixup, but it's a long road to go and that might not even be true. Is my postulation at least somewhat close to correct?

Also, I can see why you emphasize so much on simplicity when regarding dashes. I'm struggling to provoke responses for me just standing there. For now, dashing requires too much brain power at the moment for what it entails and how my opponent will respond to it. I can't imagine what 5 dash dances would even seriously entail without deep understanding on what dashes even entail. I think this is seriously key for stepping up neutral game in general, and I'll let you know if I get significant results from this.

Still on the right track!!

I am different from other top players, but the general idea is positions are understood so well that we know more of what wins and loses in small situations, and know our tools very well to make the most of these positions in ways others might not. So yes it's manipulation and understanding working together.

And yes, people overdo it sooo much these days(ever since Brawl came out really, so 2008+). As Marth especially, you don't need anything excessive at all and can make so much happen with so little action.

What about spacing and movement in teams? How would you say that compares to singles?

I already said it's minimal movement and more zoning with aerials or Dtilt than singles. You want to make sure you move more with your partner than playing 1v1s whenever possible. "with" doesn't mean you sit right next to them, but you're close enough to team combo someone when needed.

Dr Peepee going to do some soul-bearing here lol. I'm currently constructing my plan to prepare for Shine: my goal is at least 63rd, with 1-2 Top 100 upsets. (I really don't know if this is a lofty goal - I've only been playing for 2 years - and I have this mixture of raw determination, fear of failure, excitement, and embarrassment at my intentions.) With this larger goal about 6 months away in mind, I have to set smaller goals that will keep me on track, but this is where I'm stuck. As is often the case with me, I'm overwhelmed by how much I still have to learn, which leads to unfocused "a little bit of everything" practice that isn't helpful. I can't afford to waste any more of my valuable practice time like this, but knowing I should focus doesn't fix the underlying problem; I just want someone to give me some direction and tell me where to start, where to direct my focus. I'm trying to work out some kind of syllabus here but I'm confronted by the uncomfortable fact that I don't know what I'm doing.

If I had to try and explain how learning a matchup should probably be "tiered," it'd go from general > specific, looking something like:

- Fundamentals (what are all the fundamentals in Melee? They would be things that apply to every MU, so TR, out-fighting, in-fighting, tech, movement, ledge options, shield pressure, OoS options, basic mixups, and adaption would all be examples; but is this comprehensive?)

- Threats (what does each character want, and how do they get it/with what moves? how do their threats change with stage, percent, and situation? how can each character be conditioned so they're susceptible to these threats? how can these threats be avoided by them? what does this imply about how each character should play around the other?)

- Threat Range (what is the range of each character's farthest reaching threat? when should this range be played inside? outside? can you react when outside TR, but must guess inside? as percent and stage changes, how does this affect TR and how characters' threats interact?)

- Common Situations (what situations are most common in each MU? why do these situations come up, and how are they related to threats? what is each character's typical answer to each of these situations? what are their mixups? how are those mixups beaten? how many options can each character cover at once? which options should be covered most often? is the situation a read or reaction? should this situation be avoided, or exploited?)

- Combos (what are my combos against my opponent's character? how do these combos change with percent/stage/stage positioning? what are their DI options? how do I cover these options? can I cover all of them? can I react to their DI, or do I have to commit to my followup early? should I pick a different combo in that case? what other combos are there? what are my opponent's character's combos? how do their combos change with percent/stage/stage positioning? what are my DI options? will they help me escape the combo? can they cover all my options, or only some of them? what is the best combo in situation X?)

- DIs (what DI is best in situation X? are there multiple solutions? which is my opponent most likely to cover? can I SDI out in this situation and set up a punish?)

- Edgeguards (are they recovering high, mid, or low? are they trying to sweetspot? do they have a DJ? how many options do they have from their position? which are they most likely to pick? how many can I cover? can I react, or do I have to read them?)

Of course there's some overlap in these, because they're terribly vague, and a lot of them change dramatically with percents in every matchup (another huge reason I feel paralyzed, because percents increase situational variables exponentially), but this is my conception. However, I don't trust myself (which I recognize as very problematic), or any of my beliefs about the game, so it's difficult for me to try to organize my practice around my own ideas. As a result, I end up with no organization and unfocused practice. It's definitely a product of the fear of all the variables in every situation, but I simply am at a loss for what to do about it.

When trying to learn situations and I take in too much at once, I also have the problem of lapses in focus due to not trusting myself. I try to stay positive and argue that what I'm doing will yield results, but I can't bring myself to actually believe that what I'm doing will be helpful, because 1) I know my tendency is to take on too much and then not understand much/any of it; 2) I don't have the results to bolster my confidence in my practice. I get that I need to get around these to proceed and succeed, but how? I can only address the first of these problems until Shine itself comes around, and if I don't have the knowledge to determine what is best to study when, and how to structure my learning, I can't formulate a plan.

Okay I stopped reading a lot of this since it looked like you were really overwhelmed lol.

Here's what I'd recommend:

First, do intense analysis on what moves beat what in various positions. Can Marth immediate Fair to beat Fox's Nair at a certain distance? What about a little closer or farther? When can he mid Fair or late Fair? What changes if he jumps a little early, or drifts back a little bit? So you see, this takes quite a while and is IMMEDIATELY useful to you in matches because you now have working knowledge on different positions. Please start here.

Then move around to various sections of the game. Can you edgeguard? Recover? Percents? What about tech chasing? What about juggling? Etc

And that's it. That'll do most of what you need to do to have a concrete game plan. The neutral stuff I talk about should really only be worked on after you've done these sorts of things as it takes the knowledge of positions and pushes it farther. For practice you should just do basic tech in different ways and get deeply into the "feel" of them. So do WDs of different lengths, facing different directions, at different timings. This gets you deeply in touch with the tech and helps you think of its possible implications to you and your opponent. Practicing edge stuff is obviously useful too. If you want to go farther with neutral, practice some mixups using your positional knowledge. Keep it simple.

 

[Zorcey]

Okay I stopped reading a lot of this since it looked like you were really overwhelmed lol.

Here's what I'd recommend:

First, do intense analysis on what moves beat what in various positions. Can Marth immediate Fair to beat Fox's Nair at a certain distance? What about a little closer or farther? When can he mid Fair or late Fair? What changes if he jumps a little early, or drifts back a little bit? So you see, this takes quite a while and is IMMEDIATELY useful to you in matches because you now have working knowledge on different positions. Please start here.

Then move around to various sections of the game. Can you edgeguard? Recover? Percents? What about tech chasing? What about juggling? Etc

And that's it. That'll do most of what you need to do to have a concrete game plan. The neutral stuff I talk about should really only be worked on after you've done these sorts of things as it takes the knowledge of positions and pushes it farther. For practice you should just do basic tech in different ways and get deeply into the "feel" of them. So do WDs of different lengths, facing different directions, at different timings. This gets you deeply in touch with the tech and helps you think of its possible implications to you and your opponent. Practicing edge stuff is obviously useful too. If you want to go farther with neutral, practice some mixups using your positional knowledge. Keep it simple.

Lol that's fine, writing down all those questions just felt kind of helpful and therapeutic to me somehow - getting them out there instead of juggling them around inside my head. Didn't mean to overwhelm you too.

Okay, I'll do this, walking through threats in each MU and seeing what threats trump others at various positions, then moving to situational variation. Will try to keep everything as simple as possible.

But can you elaborate a bit on getting into the "feel" of tech? What do you do when you practice in that way? Should I be thinking about situations where I use that tech, and the different ways my opponent could respond, stuff like that? Sort of like a precursor to shadowboxing?

 

[Dr Peepee]

So the feel is basically something like getting subconscious knowledge or connection with the tool. It's just something you feel. You can do some thinking of applications, but I'd first just practice it to do it well and then move from there to thinking about application. So I might spend time WD'ing facing one direction and just notice how the inputs feel and make sure I can do it consistently. Then I go the other way. Then I change direction. I may be mixing up length of WD sometimes as well. I personally don't think of application much when I do this practice as that comes a little later for me when I do dash + WD or laser + WD or WD + Dtilt, etc, but you could presumably add that in a little if you felt it was pressing to you.

 

[Sacredtwin11]

So after reading Kotastic's post about his epiphany, I tried the same thing when playing against my roommate in the marth ditto. I spent a lot of my effort in observing his response to my WD dtilt and that spacing, but I wasn't quite sure when to poke him with the option and when to feint to bait a response. Oftentimes it felt like I was just dtilting and it was hitting him, but I wasn't really conditioning a response. I noticed there were numerous responses that included waiting for my dtilt and fsmashing, nairing, run up shield, and more that I might not remember. Then there were times where I was standing at the spacing, and he rushed me down instead of staying in a spot that I could WD dtilt. I'm just confused at the complexity involved even in this specific interaction.

This required a huge amount of mental focus. With enough practice at this, have you found that it becomes more instinctual, at which point you're capable of applying it to tournament? And once you internalize one tool, do you then begin working on the next option, such as dash forward, SHing, or dash back?

 

[Dr Peepee]

In a practical sense, the opponent will adjust at least for two reasons in the exact same position: what happened last time/over time(conditioning) in this position, and what happened just before the position occurred. Yes stage position and percent matter a lot too but let's ignore it for now. So if you want to know why people change up, consider when you hit a Dtilt. Next time you go into that position, the opponent will likely not want to get poked like this again. It is likely leading to them charging you or occasionally shielding as you see. This is good. You can now Dtilt them/punish in another way without WD'ing and committing to the lag since they want to hurry and avoid that punish! And if they shield as you mentioned, then you can always WD Dtilt and dash away safely, or just do something else out of WD if you react in time. If you get stuck on why they changed, then it may help to think of what happened just before the position occurred. If things were very up-tempo beforehand, they may be more encouraged to attack or end any waiting you do quickly. You can experiment with other variables as needed, but as you've noticed by now this is enough for a very long time of study so no need to overcomplicate =p

Edit: I kinda didn't answer this great and may have made it a little more complicated lol. Basically, try to guess why people adjust and go from there. Also, once you have their adjustments in mind, you use other tools to counter. So you can spread out your tool practice to others once you get started on one in a way.

 

[Kotastic]

Sacredtwin11

I tested this concept in friendlies against a Marth. I always had a decent footing in the mirror, but I always felt like there were some missing pieces that I felt like I didn't know how to respond appropriately. In my recent friendlies, I felt like my moves and dashes had legitimate purpose this time around. When I stood there within WD d-tilt distance, he would rush me down with a d-tilt/grab. I kept note of that and the next neutral interaction, I made sure to dash back, nair in place, or d-tilt in place to give me an advantage or fat punish. At some point, he just stood there knowing that I wanted him to respond, so I just immediately WD d-tilted him to remind him that he needs to take action and make him fear my sword.

There was always one situation that bothered me in the mirror where in true neutral stance, there's a sequence where both Marths are just mindlessly dash dancing, hoping that one of us commits and whiff punish each other. That's then where I knew the meaning of dash forward. Marth has an incredible ground reach with his forward dash, but I never truly realized it until today. It's at a distance where my WD d-tilt wouldn't reach, and the other Marth wants me to commit. It was then I realized the true power of just simply forward dashing the range it presents. Just from my one dash from the inner-edge side platform of BF is enough of a reach to go the other side of stage at the edge. As I expected my opponent to WP me with my commitment, I got him with a DA, which I could've gone for RC d-tilt if I wanted to be safer. I guess technically it's an overshoot, but with Marth it doesn't feel that way because of his range. When that situation was repeated where I wasn't in WD d-tilt range, this time I noticed that he would shield or try to cut me off pre-emptively which would beat my DA. After my DA failed once, I forward dashed and bullied him with my d-tilt or grabbed him at juicy percents, or my d-tilt would beat his pre-emptive attack like DA or I would simply dash back. Man...these are new but old concepts that I'm internalizing just now, and it's amazing with the amount of possibilities that are open for this with such simple tools.

This took awhile to internalize. I was slow at first trying to get these concepts in action, but as hours pass, it's definitely becoming something more automatic. I then found a general response from most people is that if I'm within WD d-tilt distance, getting a response is a given and that dashing generally has little effect. If I'm not within WD d-tilt distance, my dashes has great influence in getting a response due to Marth's reach. I found that some people don't respond to it appropriately, so I get out there and remind them that my sword exists. In my above example, I found that I had to let my opponent know that my DA had reach from my forward dash as he tried to whiff punish it. This is something I sort of internalized throughout the months, but actually truly applying these gives my Marth a whole lot more meaning and that I actually understand WHY.

 

[Sacredtwin11]

Yea, now that you mention it, I do remember myself just dtilting in place a lot and doing other things to stuff his rush down after poking him with WD dtilt. I just didn't consciously think that, likely cause I picked it up after playing a lot.

I think some of this stuff gets picked up over time playing without us really being aware of it. But to really improve to the next level looks like it requires conscious thought of all the tools marth has like this.

Also another question related to this sort of conditioning is, how do you avoid being too predictable on the opposite end? Do you think as you observe their responses to your tools, you'll also get a sense of what your responses are to their tools and know what to do?

 

[Dr Peepee]

You avoid being predictable by deepening your own pool of knowledge in situations and tools. So like I was saying before, if you WD Dtilt in a spot before but instead go for a WD SH or you just wait instead or you change WD length to either go deeper or shallower on their position, etc etc etc, you will find your options flesh out fine. If you want to start from different positions, then just learn those positions. You can always look at footage of you from your opponent's perspective and use factors we've talked about to see if you've really made it ambiguous.

 

[Kotastic]

One big recurring problem I've been having is recognizing when I'm not guaranteed a follow-up, like spotdodge shine after a tech in-place when I try to react to tech in-place. Just as a me thing, I'm naturally a perfectionist that tries to react and position things that doesn't require more outplay. However, that obviously cannot always be the case, which leads to costing me in various situations that could've been avoided. I also have other fears of other forms of outplay my opponent could do, like instead of a tech in-place shine I could eat an f-smash instead if I wait. Maybe I might be overthinking it.

For me, this is moreso a mindset thing because I want to be as perfect which in theory is possible, but in practice it's impractical. What do you think is the best way to go about this problem?

Also, say that my opponent, a Fox/Falcon, is like halfway across the stage where RC d-tilt would get them. Obviously it'll hit them if they stay grounded, but chances are they'll jump. I find this especially problematic with Fox if they FH. I want to present the threat of forward dashing as a way to get a response of them, but I'm not exactly sure the best way to punish their jump as low-risk and high-reward as possible. I know I could go for a hard read of dash fair, but it's pretty committal. Would catching their landing with grab/d-tilt/dashback be the best solution? Involving platforns, I suppose try to shark below them?

 

[iCrash]

Would you say there are other levels of understanding the neutral beyond understanding what is discussed above, with both knowing your own options, your opponents options, and how both players can respond to specific circumstances, or is the rest deepening knowledge of those situations, and knowing how to punish / what mixups are available?

Also, while dashdancing are their general points where you should shield stop / spot dodge in the neutral, other than when you know you are about to hit, or the opponent is about to commit to an attack?

 

[Dr Peepee]

One big recurring problem I've been having is recognizing when I'm not guaranteed a follow-up, like spotdodge shine after a tech in-place when I try to react to tech in-place. Just as a me thing, I'm naturally a perfectionist that tries to react and position things that doesn't require more outplay. However, that obviously cannot always be the case, which leads to costing me in various situations that could've been avoided. I also have other fears of other forms of outplay my opponent could do, like instead of a tech in-place shine I could eat an f-smash instead if I wait. Maybe I might be overthinking it.

For me, this is moreso a mindset thing because I want to be as perfect which in theory is possible, but in practice it's impractical. What do you think is the best way to go about this problem?

Also, say that my opponent, a Fox/Falcon, is like halfway across the stage where RC d-tilt would get them. Obviously it'll hit them if they stay grounded, but chances are they'll jump. I find this especially problematic with Fox if they FH. I want to present the threat of forward dashing as a way to get a response of them, but I'm not exactly sure the best way to punish their jump as low-risk and high-reward as possible. I know I could go for a hard read of dash fair, but it's pretty committal. Would catching their landing with grab/d-tilt/dashback be the best solution? Involving platforns, I suppose try to shark below them?

I believe it can be done under many circumstances, but you'll have to practice and also have a deep relaxation and focus to do it. You need to notice if you slip and also have a plan B prepared. That doesn't mean waiting vs going for perfection necessarily. You switch to coverage like a Falcon would and do things like SH to beat tech in place/miss tech and can drift to punish roll in at least too. Fsmash may also cover at least two options. If you think they won't hold down, then you could Utilt their in place vs roll behind too. SH is most common to do coverage with, and you can begin using it for manipulation too depending on when you jump and drift and what you've done before etc etc but that gives you something to play with.

If you are too far away to catch the Fox FH, then you don't need to overdo it. Of course if you're pretty sure they'll go for it there's no harm, but usually you want to confirm. Getting closer makes Fox more unsure of his FH as well since he can now get grabbed or his landing can get attacked and you can also CC Nair or something. You may also need to play for coverage here since you can't realistically cover everything. Actually maybe doing this will help: YOU CAN'T BEAT FULL HOP STRAIGHT UP WITHOUT A READ AND/OR BEING REALLLLY CLOSE SO DON'T ATTEMPT IT
A lot of people seem to keep trying this in a way like I used to and it had to get pounded into my head you don't approach the option this way lol.

Look at their options. They can Nair/Bair/Drill/FF/drift/DJ/use platforms. I just can't cover all of the nuances of these things, but I can say for platforms in particular you can let them land and then swat them in their landing lag, which is easier and safer than challenging them straight up often. You can sometimes SH to punish their landing lag, and then either DJ punish their DJ or land and grounded/aerial attack their DJ if they go back to the same side platform. If they drift more toward the top platform then this may not work depending on where you jump and if you FF back to the ground. I'd suggest watching this situation play out in videos and also just practicing it a lot to learn your options. You may find the Fox doesn't want to FH hit you and usually wants to dodge and in this case you can abuse Marth being below him well. If Fox is always trying to counterhit, then you don't need to worry about platforms as much. It makes more sense when you grind it out, but if you come back with more specifics then I can help more.

Edit: If you're starting from farther away, then you can't realistically expect to cover FH to platform on bigger stages usually. When you test, it will help to mix up starting position.

Would you say there are other levels of understanding the neutral beyond understanding what is discussed above, with both knowing your own options, your opponents options, and how both players can respond to specific circumstances, or is the rest deepening knowledge of those situations, and knowing how to punish / what mixups are available?

Also, while dashdancing are their general points where you should shield stop / spot dodge in the neutral, other than when you know you are about to hit, or the opponent is about to commit to an attack?

There is definitely more to understand beyond basic in game tools and positions. Rhythm for example I think is very important, but not something to necessarily everyone to focus on for their growth. Still, what I listed is the starting place and will take people very far.

As Marth you shouldn't spotdodge.

You should shield as late as possible generally so you can get the maximum amount of movement in to throw off their attack spacing and make it harder for them to pressure.

 

[Kotastic]

For just playing position when I'm like RC d-tilt range (aka forward dash threat), do you think I should just wait with a short WD in between and observe what the Fox does if he FH, then play accordingly to his mixup preferences?

 

[SnailManBigHitta]

where should i be looking when I play during neutral? Straight at the opponents character, the space between us, etc.? I've been playing looking at the space between us the whole time, but it feels like looking there makes me react slower to the startup to their moves. Should i train myself to look straight at them in neutral?

 

[Dr Peepee]

For just playing position when I'm like RC d-tilt range (aka forward dash threat), do you think I should just wait with a short WD in between and observe what the Fox does if he FH, then play accordingly to his mixup preferences?

If you WD you're in lag which will make it harder to adjust, but you can if you want.

where should i be looking when I play during neutral? Straight at the opponents character, the space between us, etc.? I've been playing looking at the space between us the whole time, but it feels like looking there makes me react slower to the startup to their moves. Should i train myself to look straight at them in neutral?

I think the best players tend to switch between opponent's character and the space between, and occasionally looking at their own. I'd suggest working on looking at theirs.

 

[Kotastic]

Would you perhaps think that a short forward dash would be better as a way to visually represent a threat, but really for me it's for me to observe?

 

[Dr Peepee]

It's kind of hard to isolate since I don't know other factors, primarily starting position, but yeah I think that is usually a better approach.