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Kotastic

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Oh, forgot to ask regarding Sheik: there's definitely top 100 level sheiks I've fought that just ran over me like it's nothing. Part of it is because how long her punishes can last that i sometimes forget how i even got grabbed because of that. Because of that, my mind gets numbed and pressured into doing dumb things that gets me grabbed even more against Sheik.

Apologies if my problem sounds somewhat vague and noobish, but i swear I'm not that bad against sheik and it's the problems I outlined that makes me struggle more than I should. Any advice to combat against this?
 

Dr Peepee

Thanks for Everything <3
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So what I do to remember what happened to me is I train the skill. I couldn't do it at first either. In friendlies, I would get hit and then try to remember how I got hit as I'm exiting the combo/starting to get comboed. If I couldn't remember, I'd just die. If I needed to, I'd request the right to pause after I got hit and then let them combo me anyway after I unpaused. That way I could certainly sit there and think about what happened. As you get better you don't really need to do that anymore, or time spent in the air/on the respawn platform is more than enough. Takes some work though.

Also I find that holding out on Sheik combos tends to be pretty useful. Especially out of grab. Not sure if you're getting punished for it or not, but it helped me a great deal.
 

Kotastic

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Alright, thanks for the simple response. Been playing and analyzing a loooot of Melee so sorry for asking so many questions. :p

Lately, I've also been applying your advice to juggle more with fair than up-air, and I think I'm starting to understand your advice better. Previously, my concept of juggling was to just throw them up and keep them in the air as long as I can because theoretically Marth can just keep them in the air forever. The problem with that notion is that there's actually a lot of mixups in the air from just drifting alone, and eventually I hit walls with my old method of juggling with up-air/up-tilt when my opponent knew their mixups.

Now that I'm applying fair instead and DD grab/fair their landing if they're landing towards center, I can see the strengths of this method. Sure I may not keep them in the air as long, but a big plus is that I'm cornering them, resulting them to less options. When I juggle them towards a corner, I actually feel like I'm applying a lot of pressure with the little mixups they have compared to being in the air. Is this what you mean and visualize for juggling?

Also with my new juggling method, for some reason I've taken a new appreciation with BF/DL. They just don't seem as bad, whatnot with having more space for movement, and fair juggling seems easier which seems counter-intuitive. However with my change of style, FoD and YS I don't feel is as good as a stage for me. Juggling seems to take less effect somehow due to smaller room. Perhaps this may not be entirely due to my newfound knowledge of juggling, but it's odd seeing me do worse in stages I used to like. I've seen your set at Genesis 3 and you would beat Swedish in DL but lose in YS. This is a pretty ambiguous problem that I'm not sure how to identify, so apologies if it's hard to answer.
 

HolidayMaker

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 31, 2017
Messages
52
This one is probably a little harder to answer, but do you use any cues to avoid overextending in your punish game? Lately several of the stronger players in my region have identified that they're often not winning neutral outright against me, but I'll still give them opportunities to access their punish game by just overextending mine and putting myself out of position if not outright being counterhit. Is this just a "gid gud" moment or is there something specific I can do about it?
 

Dr Peepee

Thanks for Everything <3
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Alright, thanks for the simple response. Been playing and analyzing a loooot of Melee so sorry for asking so many questions. :p

Lately, I've also been applying your advice to juggle more with fair than up-air, and I think I'm starting to understand your advice better. Previously, my concept of juggling was to just throw them up and keep them in the air as long as I can because theoretically Marth can just keep them in the air forever. The problem with that notion is that there's actually a lot of mixups in the air from just drifting alone, and eventually I hit walls with my old method of juggling with up-air/up-tilt when my opponent knew their mixups.

Now that I'm applying fair instead and DD grab/fair their landing if they're landing towards center, I can see the strengths of this method. Sure I may not keep them in the air as long, but a big plus is that I'm cornering them, resulting them to less options. When I juggle them towards a corner, I actually feel like I'm applying a lot of pressure with the little mixups they have compared to being in the air. Is this what you mean and visualize for juggling?

Also with my new juggling method, for some reason I've taken a new appreciation with BF/DL. They just don't seem as bad, whatnot with having more space for movement, and fair juggling seems easier which seems counter-intuitive. However with my change of style, FoD and YS I don't feel is as good as a stage for me. Juggling seems to take less effect somehow due to smaller room. Perhaps this may not be entirely due to my newfound knowledge of juggling, but it's odd seeing me do worse in stages I used to like. I've seen your set at Genesis 3 and you would beat Swedish in DL but lose in YS. This is a pretty ambiguous problem that I'm not sure how to identify, so apologies if it's hard to answer.
Yeah they're supposed to either get cornered at worst, or get mixed up into DI'ing offstage or getting Ken Comboed/Fsmashed at best.

I don't really understand your last question except that I know it's possible to make good use of the bigger levels to juggle too. DL still tends to make it more difficult though so I'm not entirely sure how that'd be easier, or how you struggle more on smaller stages. As for the Swedish thing, I feel that was more about neutral and/or his punish iirc. If you can get me an example of you doing the juggling on a smaller level and where you get stuck I imagine I can help. The reason I think Marths struggle more on smaller stages now is they don't have as economic of movement as they could and don't zone enough. Basically your sword takes up more room so using that instead is often better on smaller levels. Not sure about the punish part though.

This one is probably a little harder to answer, but do you use any cues to avoid overextending in your punish game? Lately several of the stronger players in my region have identified that they're often not winning neutral outright against me, but I'll still give them opportunities to access their punish game by just overextending mine and putting myself out of position if not outright being counterhit. Is this just a "gid gud" moment or is there something specific I can do about it?
This is a big Marth problem that tends to hurt them, so it's good you identified it. I don't really know where you drop, but if you can find those specific spots, either grind out the reactions/learn the situations better and grind that out OR just let stuff drop and go for pseudo combos for followups OR just occasionally play for position.
 

Kopaka

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Aug 8, 2015
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268
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Damn PP, like I told you a while ago I have been reading through this thread (I got interested in doing so after seeing your solo practice post again for the first time in a long time, and realizing I ohad only ever saw what you posted in the falco thread). I actually came in assuming you stopped posting in 2013/2014 like almost everyone else from back in the day... I had no idea you were still pumping out posts to this day (and at a higher rate/more deeply than ever before)! I’ve been reading through this thread on my phone for the past month(just finished now) and have been taking screenshots of all the really useful posts (which after a point in 2014 kind of just became 95% you lmao)

It has been extremely interesting seeing the overall change in the theme of discussion of this thread. By 2011 Cactuar had already stopped making serious posts and there wasn’t really a lot of theory being posted because there weren’t a lot of deep game/marth theory being posted about, mostly just what moves are good and what to do in certain matchups. Your posts in 2012 on Marth pressure, timing/spacing mixups and that early puff matchup guide reallly got the thread going about neutral game and conditioning. That 2012 year had a lot stuff about variable timings on the moves you to condition the opponent. 2013 in stark comparison became the Umbreon thread, consisting only of “only uthrow, don’t do moves that aren’t grab, don’t nair, mixups are overated” (I used to hate his posts back in the day but now I like his core ideas, but I do think they were too extreme). 2014 was a lot about Inner Game stuff, and because of smash boards dying this also marked the beginning of this thread changing from more of a discussion to “newer players gather and siphon pp knowledge”. 2015 had a lot more punish game refinement talk and it seems like the punish game talk kind of goes directly against a lot of that 2013 stuff, like using other throws to tech chase, not uthrowing samus/peach, and using moves more than movement in certain positions/matchups. 2016/2017 topics were really broad since it’s more you responding to questions from others, but TR and realllllly separating the components of movement and refining them to all have intention came up a lot. Of course this is all really general, but just some trends I noticed while reading through.

Anyway I’ve been out of the game for about 2 years now, but reading through all this has really made me interested in coming back and refining my own game. After reading so many posts dissecting the neutral/punish game, there’s so much that I may have intuitively known after years of playing, but that I didn’t realize could be SO MUCH more taken apart and refined. My view of the game and ways of practicing have completely changed, thank you PP! I’m go gonna read through the falco thread as well (as I mentioned earlier, I had no idea your posts continued after 2013 lmao)

Cheers!
Stab! Come back dude!

Dr Peepee Dr Peepee "So what I do to remember what happened to me is I train the skill. I couldn't do it at first either. In friendlies, I would get hit and then try to remember how I got hit as I'm exiting the combo/starting to get comboed. If I couldn't remember, I'd just die. If I needed to, I'd request the right to pause after I got hit and then let them combo me anyway after I unpaused." The majority of people I play get upset after being hit. Myself included sometimes unfortunately. Sometimes I think honestly the key to getting really good at this game is asking questions/non-judgemental thinking/everything on mentality we've talked about basically lol, but for some of us it's so difficult to get over that wall of anger after being hit. Why do you think this is? Could there be any tips for someone to calm themselves down and start asking productive questions after being hit? Maybe taking a deep breath after being hit and *then* start thinking? You've taken it a step farther by pausing the game before too lol, and in your friendlies vs Mahone I've never seen anyone back off and think to themselves why they dropped punishes (If you recall that). Most people in friendlies are always like "ARRRGH GOTTA STAY ON SETUP" etc. Emotional control is really difficult for some people, you're really good at it it seems
 
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Dr Peepee

Thanks for Everything <3
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Stab! Come back dude!

Dr Peepee Dr Peepee "So what I do to remember what happened to me is I train the skill. I couldn't do it at first either. In friendlies, I would get hit and then try to remember how I got hit as I'm exiting the combo/starting to get comboed. If I couldn't remember, I'd just die. If I needed to, I'd request the right to pause after I got hit and then let them combo me anyway after I unpaused." The majority of people I play get upset after being hit. Myself included sometimes unfortunately. Sometimes I think honestly the key to getting really good at this game is asking questions/non-judgemental thinking/everything on mentality we've talked about basically lol, but for some of us it's so difficult to get over that wall of anger after being hit. Why do you think this is? Could there be any tips for someone to calm themselves down and start asking productive questions after being hit? Maybe taking a deep breath after being hit and *then* start thinking? You've taken it a step farther by pausing the game before too lol, and in your friendlies vs Mahone I've never seen anyone back off and think to themselves why they dropped punishes (If you recall that). Most people in friendlies are always like "ARRRGH GOTTA STAY ON SETUP" etc. Emotional control is really difficult for some people, you're really good at it it seems
Lmao I only streamed that because he wanted recording but I'm a noob and didn't realize you could just record without all of this. At least some good came from it =p And yeah I do that without needing to stop when I'm normal unless it's a really complex thing usually.

Also, that video and my posts here may make me seem like I was always in control, but that is FAR from the truth. I used to internally rage when getting hit any time, and Twitch has seen me rage outwardly before as I learned to accept loss in tougher periods of my life(this rage extended long past our sessions at times sadly). So when I say people can train the skill, I am definitely speaking from experience. Also, I used to think the only way you could get good was through my "new way" of thinking where it was all acceptance and love, but I did not come up as a player that way, and neither did the other top players. So I am always somewhat torn when giving advice here. One person I taught to think more calmly just gave up trying to be good as he became satisfied with his performance....

To me, being good is about being hungry/cultivating drive much moreso than about calm I believe. I think calm is healthiest of course, but hunger seems to be the only consistent factor. If you want it badly enough, it'll even overpower your rage at getting hit and drive you to learn more. You can be calm and be hungry through love as well, but it seems this can take extra work for people as they will need to rewrite a lot of mental programs for it to work. I'll just cut myself off here lol.

More to the point of your question of how to actually be calm, it is a way of training, a way of thinking, and a way of holding your body physically. Physically, if you build up tension in keeping your shoulders up, having tight breath etc you're less likely to notice things. Observe yourself in player cams when playing well vs not for example. Thinking is more difficult. I believe people resist getting hit because they can't handle their confidence being undermined/tunnel vision on a hit and don't really account for what the opponent is doing in neutral based on their often limited understanding, as well as not handling failure well and fearing that. Essentially, fear and lack of knowledge. So the way you'd counter this would be with gaining knowledge(of yourself and the game) and addressing those fears in yourself. Stepping back and realizing growth is much more than the next match on setup or the next tournament and is a deeply personal process of growing yourself, that each tool is an extension of yourself and overcoming matchups or fears or strong opponents is about overcoming yourself, that falling back in love with the game and feeling energized to play gives you so much more clarity than nervousness if you'd just take the to cultivate it as you did naturally when you started....

You can also focus on your goals and really visualize achieving them and allow them to energize you.

You can also independently see a therapist or do cognitive-behavioral work on yourself to break your mental habits.

You can also push your body to its limits to gain perspective on pushing hard and also see there's so much growth to be had. It can humble you to be overwhelmed by a physical challenge as well.

There are many ways to resolve an issue. I can't say what way is best for everyone, only that your best bet is to keep trying and to stay creative until you find it. I have more specifics for everything I've said of course, and I know those mental blocks as I've described are more or less right, but that doesn't mean they all get resolved the same.






Edit: I should probably add what I specifically did myself so people could try it at least. Not sure why I didn't include that.

So I personally began consciously tackling this after I had resolved some other mental blocks. One of my mental blocks was a confidence issue stemming from my upbringing, and another was my anger toward other top players. The anger issue was quickly resolved through reading the Inner Game of Tennis and realizing that I had another option and that competition could be more fulfilling through the perspective of cooperation. The confidence partly was resolved from spending a very great deal of time reading about how early life experiences and parental/peer involvement can impact your personality and thinking. I became much more interested in choosing to view obstacles as challenges instead of threats as a result.

To address confidence further, I would do sentence completion exercises. "If I want to be happy, I will-" "I feel hurt by my mother when-" and so on. I would also challenge my typical thinking through the mental exercise of imagining situations I responded "poorly" in and thinking about why I did and then substituting new ways of acting. I also recognized at some point this should be tackled from a holistic perspective, or laziness in one area will bleed into them all. So I began refocusing on my health, on my family relationships, on my friendships, on understanding opponents as people, etc instead of just what I had previously described alone. I would also read about role models I found personally inspiring and see how they handled things and add that to my list of ways to handle myself, as well as give me high standards in areas I thought they succeeded at to strive for. They could also be guiding internal voices to me.

I probably could have organized this all better but that's a lot of what I did. If people are interested in more specifics I imagine I could provide them.
 
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stabbedbyanipple

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Hey, as I said earlier, I went through and read the thread from 2011 to now, while taking screenshots of posts that I thought were really helpful (came out to somewhere between 600 to 700 pics maybe). For my own needs I organized them into a google drive with small descriptions of each post (along with poster and year), and divided them into either specific matchups or general (with general being further subdivided, and I'll probably subdivide them further later on because they're a little cluttered). Anyway, due to the nature of the thread, most of them are PP posts but there are some pretty decent posts from others too, and for the most part I think all of them are quite helpful. Just sharing in case anyone else might find it helpful. Cheers!

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1uVjc1eA45Cco8T2njKtA1LFgqSli8u4a?usp=sharing

Edit: and if I missed anything good, let me know and I'll add it in

Double Edit: A lot of the posts are responses to questions, however if the question can be easily inferred from the answer then I left the question out. If it can't be, then I usually label it as Q/A and leave it in
 
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Socrates

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 15, 2013
Messages
46
Hey, as I said earlier, I went through and read the thread from 2011 to now, while taking screenshots of posts that I thought were really helpful (came out to somewhere between 600 to 700 pics maybe). For my own needs I organized them into a google drive with small descriptions of each post (along with poster and year), and divided them into either specific matchups or general (with general being further subdivided, and I'll probably subdivide them further later on because they're a little cluttered). Anyway, due to the nature of the thread, most of them are PP posts but there are some pretty decent posts from others too, and for the most part I think all of them are quite helpful. Just sharing in case anyone else might find it helpful. Cheers!

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1uVjc1eA45Cco8T2njKtA1LFgqSli8u4a?usp=sharing

Edit: and if I missed anything good, let me know and I'll add it in

Double Edit: A lot of the posts are responses to questions, however if the question can be easily inferred from the answer then I left the question out. If it can't be, then I usually label it as Q/A and leave it in

You are a legend
 

Farco

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 31, 2015
Messages
13
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Southeastern Kentucky
Wanted to give an update. I've started a routine of meditation and exercise this past week leading up to the arcadian. I ended up not doing as well as I wanted, being 13th out of 80, largely because I've still been struggling with nerves which cause me to drop punishes and edgeguards. I did play much better than I did last week, so there has been some progress. I definitely still have a lot of learning to do, and need to continue developing meditation every day.
 

maclo4

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 21, 2016
Messages
114
Wanted to give an update. I've started a routine of meditation and exercise this past week leading up to the arcadian. I ended up not doing as well as I wanted, being 13th out of 80, largely because I've still been struggling with nerves which cause me to drop punishes and edgeguards. I did play much better than I did last week, so there has been some progress. I definitely still have a lot of learning to do, and need to continue developing meditation every day.
What region are you in?
 
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Kotastic

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When floaties enter marthritis percent, how do you go about setting up the most effective side-B/hard read/setup option to kill? Sometimes I get too antsy, getting too obvious with my side-B's that ends up getting CC'd or shielded, and it just makes me lose momentum.
 

quixotic

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Nov 6, 2017
Messages
93
How can marth beat fox dash dancing patiently on the top platform?

I've found that if I try to threaten him w/ dj aerials he goes down and takes center, but if I dash dance underneath the side platform, the threat of fox bair lets him take center.
 
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Dr Peepee

Thanks for Everything <3
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Just in case anyone missed it, I did edit my last post to include more info.


When floaties enter marthritis percent, how do you go about setting up the most effective side-B/hard read/setup option to kill? Sometimes I get too antsy, getting too obvious with my side-B's that ends up getting CC'd or shielded, and it just makes me lose momentum.
If floaties are okay to shield, you messed up in a variety of ways. If you can't kill them from a throw directly or from an edgeguard, then you'd better have really good Fsmash vs side B mixups on their shield. So really the answer is having good edgeguards/juggles and working on your shield pressure so you don't tunnel vision on side B.

How can marth beat fox dash dancing patiently on the top platform?

I've found that if I try to threaten him w/ dj aerials he goes down and takes center, but if I dash dance underneath the side platform, the threat of fox bair lets him take center.
SH under the platform. If he comes down then you FF and either hit him or play from there. If he continues to stay up there then you DJ. It sounds like you either DJ or just wait, and you need to change up your cues you give him so you're more flexible.

Hello again. PPMD and forum,

As I continue to improve as a player, it becomes apparant that "Match Stamina" as I call it dwindles over time. While I know that this is just something that happens over time because humans get tired and really cant be avoided. In my instance. It seems to happen alot quicker then most. Now, the three observations ive made about myself mid matches in general are as follows

1) auto-pilot. While its something that I can fixed and have fixed in the past. It almost seems like ive regressed in this situation. Wheather its because im pushing things that I used to think about activly are now in my subconscious since they are simply second nature and now need to think deeper, or if I am simply autopiloting for the sake of it and not thinking about anything. This is someting I need to observe more.

The next two issues are intertwined

2) This seems to, for lack of a better word. Happen in random intervals. I become very mentally and physically exhaused (weather it be after one match or set or interaction, it varies) and cannot refocus nor do I have the energy to focus while playing. Its very annoying and usually forces me to lose whatever lead I had during the game, or not care and sort of "give up" for the rest of the set.

3) Ive become very depressed while playing tournament sets. While ill usually play fine for the first couple stocks (regardless of the interactions or sitautions that happen) after a while, I just sort of give up, and dont feel like playing anymore. Its not like Isai where I want the other person to win. It just feels like the opponnent on the other side has more heart and cares more about the game then I do. This sort of energy I feel can be very overwhelming. Forcing me to get very sad or anxious


Hopefully you can decypher something out of this. These are genuine concerns regarding my play. While I think taking a break is what I need ive been trying to assimilate myself back into melee and competeing for a few months now, and while im improving in regrards to tournament placings and quality of play. These mental blocks have forced me into an awful situation where playing in tournament almost feels like a chore. Playing casuals with other players regardless of skill level is fine, since I can look at the game analycially and see what I need to improve on without tournament pressure

Hope this makes sense

-The Lick
Your problem is not stamina then as you said since you can play friendlies seriously for hours and apply yourself fine. I believe your problem is mental and possibly about allowing yourself to succeed. The tension that comes with competing rapidly drains your energy and seems to also bring up other mental tensions you have, which cause those depressive/anxious feelings. I would recommend looking at my recent very long post on what I did and think about improving your mentality to rid yourself of this tension. Books that can help are "the inner game of tennis" , "the art or learning" , "the six pillars of self-esteem", and "unlimited power." Hope that helps.
 

Sylarius

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Saskatoon, SK
PP, how can I better learn when to attack and when not to?

Also, you stated that "less is more, including dash back" - can you expand a bit on this, primarily vs Fox?

I try to play like you very much with the centre/positioning gameplay and being careful about my dash dance. Here's a short clip that I'm trying to understand:

https://youtu.be/J3EWhr6XHVQ?t=214 (Rishi vs Syrox)

Did Rishi mess up here by getting too close without attacking? I think I understand when to attack more vs other characters decently, but vs Fox I find it harder to understand when to swing and when to dash. Just yesterday I played some matches vs a local Fox where I got destroyed for a game and a half and then did way better once I started attacking in place and attacking first way more. Dtilt undershooting to bait aerials and using dtilt/grab/occasional fsmash more at lower %s when taking an aerial doesn't launch you offstage is also easier for me to get, but at higher %s where nair can knock you offstage, I'm not quite sure how to play and sometimes I dash a lot or try to play too safe when I think it may be better to keep the pressure on.

I've asked similar questions but it's something that's hard to understand for me. It must be more than a series of mixups? Or should I just see it as that within the unreactable range?

Thanks!

Edit: This happens with you vs Armada a lot too I notice, where both of you try not to commit first and then Armada goes for an overshot dash attack or dash through or you go for a quick run up grab. This happens more frequently and longer than in any other set I've ever seen.
 
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Dr Peepee

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In that clip, Rishi overcomplicates by doing too much movement and too similar movement. He is basically communicating that his actions are not threatening and so encourages syrox to come in. This is how he gets punished, by realizing an approach is happening as he's going through another motion and trying to back up but getting hit as he realizes this.

If you abandon what's working just because you're at higher percent, and your strategy did not rely on percent, then I'm not sure why you would abandon it. What's wrong with aerials in place and Dtilt/grab/occasional Fsmash at high percent? It's still a fine strategy. Seems to me like you let fear win more than anything else.
 

Vega$

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 30, 2016
Messages
16
Hello again. PPMD and forum,

As I continue to improve as a player, it becomes apparant that "Match Stamina" as I call it dwindles over time. While I know that this is just something that happens over time because humans get tired and really cant be avoided. In my instance. It seems to happen alot quicker then most. Now, the three observations ive made about myself mid matches in general are as follows

1) auto-pilot. While its something that I can fixed and have fixed in the past. It almost seems like ive regressed in this situation. Wheather its because im pushing things that I used to think about activly are now in my subconscious since they are simply second nature and now need to think deeper, or if I am simply autopiloting for the sake of it and not thinking about anything. This is someting I need to observe more.

The next two issues are intertwined

2) This seems to, for lack of a better word. Happen in random intervals. I become very mentally and physically exhaused (weather it be after one match or set or interaction, it varies) and cannot refocus nor do I have the energy to focus while playing. Its very annoying and usually forces me to lose whatever lead I had during the game, or not care and sort of "give up" for the rest of the set.

3) Ive become very depressed while playing tournament sets. While ill usually play fine for the first couple stocks (regardless of the interactions or sitautions that happen) after a while, I just sort of give up, and dont feel like playing anymore. Its not like Isai where I want the other person to win. It just feels like the opponnent on the other side has more heart and cares more about the game then I do. This sort of energy I feel can be very overwhelming. Forcing me to get very sad or anxious


Hopefully you can decypher something out of this. These are genuine concerns regarding my play. While I think taking a break is what I need ive been trying to assimilate myself back into melee and competeing for a few months now, and while im improving in regrards to tournament placings and quality of play. These mental blocks have forced me into an awful situation where playing in tournament almost feels like a chore. Playing casuals with other players regardless of skill level is fine, since I can look at the game analycially and see what I need to improve on without tournament pressure

Hope this makes sense

-The Lick
hey ordrint , ur friendly luigi main vegasfox69 here. I understand the sad side of playing melee. playing tournies used to be quite the chore and that is why i hardly go but then it all really changed for me. I decided to completely change my playstyle (i forgot when but i just did) and this made every tournament set since then feel awesome. my mentality went from "i need to win because I think im good enough" to "im going to win because my style is unique and no one will expect it". like for example one of the things I did one tournament was to never grab ledge for an edgeguard in all my tournament sets. this gave me an entertaining aspect of the game espicially when i would win sets doing this. not only that, i self-learned a lot about edgeguarding by doing this
 

Sylarius

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Usually I attack less when at higher % because at low %s, if I attack I can still CC/ASDI all of fox's stuff (except grab) so dtilt is a lot safer for me, but at higher %s, a nair or dtilt will launch me. So if I'm going to attack, I have to be more careful about not missing or not putting myself in a position where I can be punished. That's what I thought, anyway. Sometimes I still do things like fsmash at high % but usually I play less aggro. But if it's working, it may be better to stick to it like you suggested...

Keeping close track of what my opponent is doing is probably something I could improve on regarding this. Thanks for the explanation of the dash dance sequence I linked above! Would you be willing to explain this one too?
https://youtu.be/RpDZTARVuSU?t=287

It seems to me that because Armada overshot you with dash attack on your first stock of that game, and that you accidentally ran off the stage trying to dash back, you decided to try to dash through him instead since before then you had respected Armada's space. I find it weird how Armada dashes afterwards though instead of immediately attacking you. He just dashes away? Did he consider you wanting to go for an attack/grab thinking that you were feeling like you were running out of room and had to do something?

Just my not-so-confident thoughts on that moment...
 

Dr Peepee

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I dashed through to go under/past him if he came in, and he probably reacted to where I was by moving forward. He then adjusted to where I was by moving one dash away, and from there it was an easy reaction to punish me in my grab lag.
 

Spud125

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why are people still commenting in this?
 

AirFair

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As I am looking at my play right now, one of my biggest weaknesses is my defense in scramble situations where either me or my opponent dropped a punish or whiffed a move and we are both close to each other.

In these situations, I know that my opponent will come in or defend, either by moving away (dashing or jumping, which can set up for an attack) or using their shield, and the subsequent options from that. The way I see it currently, depending on how the situation happens, both me and my opponent will be inclined to act a certain way, but I feel like I take too many risks here, swinging when I believe the opponent might come in and getting punished, or swinging too late because I dash away and they get on top of me.

Are there things I can observe to help me predict what my opponent will do in these situations? You've said before that playing within TR relies a lot on manipulation, so maybe there is something I'm not doing properly with regards to that.
 

Dr Peepee

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why are people still commenting in this?
Why wouldn't they? Learning is good no matter where it is.

As I am looking at my play right now, one of my biggest weaknesses is my defense in scramble situations where either me or my opponent dropped a punish or whiffed a move and we are both close to each other.

In these situations, I know that my opponent will come in or defend, either by moving away (dashing or jumping, which can set up for an attack) or using their shield, and the subsequent options from that. The way I see it currently, depending on how the situation happens, both me and my opponent will be inclined to act a certain way, but I feel like I take too many risks here, swinging when I believe the opponent might come in and getting punished, or swinging too late because I dash away and they get on top of me.

Are there things I can observe to help me predict what my opponent will do in these situations? You've said before that playing within TR relies a lot on manipulation, so maybe there is something I'm not doing properly with regards to that.
You should also consider WD back and retreating Fair(s) as well as pivot retreating Fair/Nair or dash away Bair.

If you want time to observe, creating space with WD/dash back are good ways to do so and retreating aerials can do this as well. It can depend on how you enter the situation though. If you enter in lag such as you dropping a punish, then your opponent may be more inclined to approach. It can also depend on matchup and how close and other conditioning, so it's not easy to say. I would just try those options I listed first and then see how you feel.
 

Kopaka

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In that clip, Rishi overcomplicates by doing too much movement and too similar movement. He is basically communicating that his actions are not threatening and so encourages syrox to come in. This is how he gets punished, by realizing an approach is happening as he's going through another motion and trying to back up but getting hit as he realizes this.
I really find the "his actions are not threatening" thing interesting because his actions were just dashes too, and even those apparently need to be conveying some sort of message. And it was conveying a message, that Syrox read as something like "ok, nothing is happening with his movement so I can go in" put simply at least.

What do you think Rishi could have done differently in that clip? How many dashes does it take you usually to want to push in with a dtilt, or move in closer with a longer dash or any type of decision? I'm remembering back to the explanation you gave about your dash dance in a clip from your set with Leffen at Apex and I found it really interesting.
 

AirFair

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Why wouldn't they? Learning is good no matter where it is.


You should also consider WD back and retreating Fair(s) as well as pivot retreating Fair/Nair or dash away Bair.

If you want time to observe, creating space with WD/dash back are good ways to do so and retreating aerials can do this as well. It can depend on how you enter the situation though. If you enter in lag such as you dropping a punish, then your opponent may be more inclined to approach. It can also depend on matchup and how close and other conditioning, so it's not easy to say. I would just try those options I listed first and then see how you feel.
Yeah I agree with your point about entering in lag. Something cool I've seen you do and tried to do myself is to dash/wd through them as they are coming in to punish you retreating, which goes past/under their attack and can let you reset the situation.
 

Dr Peepee

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I really find the "his actions are not threatening" thing interesting because his actions were just dashes too, and even those apparently need to be conveying some sort of message. And it was conveying a message, that Syrox read as something like "ok, nothing is happening with his movement so I can go in" put simply at least.

What do you think Rishi could have done differently in that clip? How many dashes does it take you usually to want to push in with a dtilt, or move in closer with a longer dash or any type of decision? I'm remembering back to the explanation you gave about your dash dance in a clip from your set with Leffen at Apex and I found it really interesting.
Syrox may have interpreted it as "he's waiting" or "he's taking his time approaching" or "his forward movement isn't immediately threatening so I can take advantage" but you get the idea.

The first 6 dashes Rishi did after landing from SH were all similar rhythm and did not seem designed to deviate from a typical pattern. He had one deep one, 4 short ones(the main problem), and one long away. The deep one was to probably probe for an immediate approach, and then the 4 small ones did not really open up his reactions since you need to be acting quickly to do them with little time to observe. Had he done the long first one and then 1-2 short ones(into wait or SH or WD or whatever) that would be okay. In fact, he could even do exactly what he did if he practiced short dashing while observing a lot but it didn't seem clear he was doing that since he just long dashed away as soon as Syrox got near him. This together leads me to believe he was playing fearfully and trying to counterhit.

I could go on about variations but this conveys the general idea.
 

Kopaka

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Syrox may have interpreted it as "he's waiting" or "he's taking his time approaching" or "his forward movement isn't immediately threatening so I can take advantage" but you get the idea.

The first 6 dashes Rishi did after landing from SH were all similar rhythm and did not seem designed to deviate from a typical pattern. He had one deep one, 4 short ones(the main problem), and one long away. The deep one was to probably probe for an immediate approach, and then the 4 small ones did not really open up his reactions since you need to be acting quickly to do them with little time to observe. Had he done the long first one and then 1-2 short ones(into wait or SH or WD or whatever) that would be okay. In fact, he could even do exactly what he did if he practiced short dashing while observing a lot but it didn't seem clear he was doing that since he just long dashed away as soon as Syrox got near him. This together leads me to believe he was playing fearfully and trying to counterhit.

I could go on about variations but this conveys the general idea.
Thanks. Also thanks for adding to that long post above. "Train the mind and the body will follow" is a quote I'm digging right now. It's great to know all this stuff but practicing the mentality required is a whole different story otherwise it's really difficult to apply any of what we talk about, even what you just said.

Edit: Dr Peepee Dr Peepee Is there a specific moment in a match that you remember using all of your dashes for specific reasons?
 
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Sylarius

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Thanks. Also thanks for adding to that long post above. "Train the mind and the body will follow" is a quote I'm digging right now. It's great to know all this stuff but practicing the mentality required is a whole different story otherwise it's really difficult to apply any of what we talk about, even what you just said.

Edit: Dr Peepee Dr Peepee Is there a specific moment in a match that you remember using all of your dashes for specific reasons?
https://youtu.be/IomXcdAAt7E?t=1009 is the one I see cited a lot. Edit: by other people, anyway.

PP: https://youtu.be/RK_XO_DJeSY?t=832 ? Was it better here to attack earlier IYO?
 
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Kopaka

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Dr Peepee Dr Peepee Meant to ask this earlier: How often and for how long do you meditate for? Even by looking at your body language of your best sets, I can tell that I have a lot of work to do regarding composure.

I spent a tourney following strictly the 1-2 dashes rule, and it made Melee easier. It's difficult but at the same time the games become easier. I was playing people I normally play and I was still winning, but I was getting hit less by my opponents haphazard attacks. A problem I would have was playing weaker players and being hit by "nooby stuff" or stuff that didn't make sense, like "why are they just throwing themselves at me and hitting me randomly" and all of that stuff was so much easier to deal with. I would slowly work my way to adding 3-4 dashes after learning what 1-2 accomplishes. Would also just force myself to make an offensive/defensive decision after 1-2.
 

Kotastic

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So when cornering someone, ideally doing something with low-risk, high-reward is the go-to, like grabbing a low-percent Peach near the corner and potentially netting a lot of percent from DA alone or something.

However in situations where the only way I can kill which is making a hard commitment...where do you draw the line? I've done some reflections, and I realize that if I keep on doing low-risk, low-reward moves on the corner, eventually they'll find an escape with all my tedious cornering for nothing. I've had a problem with this for awhile. I realized this vs. a player I know like WD OoS, so I faked in a couple WDs (without being excessive) to bait him to get OoS and make a hard commitment with an F-smash. If I didn't do this, I doubt I would've won the set: https://youtu.be/x6ImxOX8ceY?t=14m39s

I'm still exploring more stuff regarding cornering because I have a feeling that this is essential in leveling up my gameplay a whole lot, so it is appreciated if you were to say I'm heading in the right direction with this.
 

maclo4

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Obviously I'm not PP but something to think about is that the moves that are generally "low-risk low-reward" become more like "low-risk medium-reward" when the opponent is cornered. Like fairing, or even dtilting depending on the percent, someone at ledge can be a kill of you edgeguard right. My gut feeling is that fsmashing into the corner like in the clip you sent probably isnt necessary although if thats the playstyle you want to do then I'm sure you can make it work.

Edit: I watched a little more of your set and found a prime example of what I'm talking about. https://youtu.be/x6ImxOX8ceY?t=14m58s It's the same situation but you grab this time, but you just don't get the edgeguard cause you do a weird dash dance while he was off stage and got out of position
 
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Dr Peepee

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Thanks. Also thanks for adding to that long post above. "Train the mind and the body will follow" is a quote I'm digging right now. It's great to know all this stuff but practicing the mentality required is a whole different story otherwise it's really difficult to apply any of what we talk about, even what you just said.

Edit: Dr Peepee Dr Peepee Is there a specific moment in a match that you remember using all of your dashes for specific reasons?
In between stocks at MLG vs Mango game 4 if you want to count that lol, otherwise smashers reunion set 1 games in which I win, but that's Falco.

https://youtu.be/IomXcdAAt7E?t=1009 is the one I see cited a lot. Edit: by other people, anyway.

PP: https://youtu.be/RK_XO_DJeSY?t=832 ? Was it better here to attack earlier IYO?
I should've just kept backing up and let Sfat hang himself.

So when cornering someone, ideally doing something with low-risk, high-reward is the go-to, like grabbing a low-percent Peach near the corner and potentially netting a lot of percent from DA alone or something.

However in situations where the only way I can kill which is making a hard commitment...where do you draw the line? I've done some reflections, and I realize that if I keep on doing low-risk, low-reward moves on the corner, eventually they'll find an escape with all my tedious cornering for nothing. I've had a problem with this for awhile. I realized this vs. a player I know like WD OoS, so I faked in a couple WDs (without being excessive) to bait him to get OoS and make a hard commitment with an F-smash. If I didn't do this, I doubt I would've won the set: https://youtu.be/x6ImxOX8ceY?t=14m39s

I'm still exploring more stuff regarding cornering because I have a feeling that this is essential in leveling up my gameplay a whole lot, so it is appreciated if you were to say I'm heading in the right direction with this.
Well you can still kill with edgeguarding/juggling, as well as late Fair/weak Dtilt into pivot/WD Fsmash in addition to the usual side B Utilt, so I don't want you to think you have no options.

You can also always deepen your low risk cornering strategy. For example, if you can find more ways to get on their shield you can often find opportunities to space Fsmash which is safe and if it hits it's a kill.

In this example, you certainly outplayed your opponent which is great. Since it's a bad character though I wouldn't recommend this normally, but the skill is great to develop when fighting more higher-tier characters.

Dr Peepee Dr Peepee Meant to ask this earlier: How often and for how long do you meditate for? Even by looking at your body language of your best sets, I can tell that I have a lot of work to do regarding composure.

I spent a tourney following strictly the 1-2 dashes rule, and it made Melee easier. It's difficult but at the same time the games become easier. I was playing people I normally play and I was still winning, but I was getting hit less by my opponents haphazard attacks. A problem I would have was playing weaker players and being hit by "nooby stuff" or stuff that didn't make sense, like "why are they just throwing themselves at me and hitting me randomly" and all of that stuff was so much easier to deal with. I would slowly work my way to adding 3-4 dashes after learning what 1-2 accomplishes. Would also just force myself to make an offensive/defensive decision after 1-2.
I would meditate 1-1.5 hours at a time, twice a day at those times. I did not make exceptions very often for this, and made opportunities to go longer when possible.

Also good job on the simplicity success! That's how it starts.
 

quixotic

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I should've just kept backing up and let Sfat hang himself.
I was wondering about this situation too, how can marth approach fox/sheik/falcon just standing still or crouching in place and not reacting to forward movement? I feel like the standard rc dtilt approach is too react-able, do you think wd dtilt/jump fair would work here? If they're crouching I think you'd want to set up a grab but idk if its possible to get into grab range without them attacking you first.

here's the situation again:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RK_XO_DJeSY&feature=youtu.be&t=832&ab_channel=ShowdownGG
 

AirFair

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I should've just kept backing up and let Sfat hang himself.
When you say 'let Sfat hang himself" is this because you had him cornered? When you came in, he continued to back up until his back was to the edge and then he stops moving. Was your intention to get him to come forward and then punish him with a fair/grab?

edit: lol didn't see the post above me
 
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minh

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Dr Peepee Dr Peepee in a lot of your posts you talk about training your mentality. How would I go about training my mentality? Is there anything specific I should do?
 
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