Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Doof_]

I've been experimenting using dtilt a lot more in neutral in the Marth vs. Falco matchup. I need to try it out more against various players but the concept is that it is like a low-risk low-reward dash attack. Landing it is similar because you need a read on their movement. Usually during the movement between falco's lasers.

At low percents it works similar to falco laser in the sense that once hit you have limited their options and can make a read on how they will react after the hit (Ex. dash away, jump out, spotdodge/roll). It seems like a much safer option than either dash attack or a raw grab. And once they start trying to jump over and aerial your dtilt that allows you to dashdance grab their approach.

At higher percents you can get a knock down (non-cc; 60%~ for tipper and 85%~ for the middle hitbox), which is a much safer alternative to get a knockdown than dash attack and overshoot fsmash. After the knockdown you get to do Marthly things to them.

Anyways I just wanted to hear your input on it or am I just grossly oversimplifying this?

 

[Sylarius]

PP, do you like having the reputation of having the best dash dance? Is that something you specifically aimed for (the title and/or specifically focusing on improving your dash dance)?

Just curious. I love your dash dance. :3 PPMD Kreygasm

Edit: Also, would you say at tournaments like Genesis where there's a storyline/hype match wanted, though of course everyone is trying to win, is there some weird satisfaction/redemption in losing to Mango? Like not in losing but the fact that he's moving on? I seriously wonder especially at Genesis 3 and 4 how top players feel about the storylines continuing. I also wonder how Ken feels when he gets Ken combo'd.

Like this: https://twitter.com/xd1x/status/688972649549049856

 

[RedmanSSBM]

This past Sunday I was at a large monthly tournament where I had a sudden bout of depression occur halfway through the day that day. It started after I was eliminated from doubles and it only got worse as time went on. Honestly I wasn't sure of what to do in the moment as it was happening, but in hindsight, I could have probably meditated or listened to music or something, I'm just not sure what.

I feel like for meditating I need to be in an isolated space where there isn't any noise so that I can just focus on my thoughts. You unfortunately can't get that at every venue, so I feel like meditation can only work at some points. Unless I can just take in all of the background noise and try to meditate with that in mind? I'm not sure about the specifics of applying meditation while at a tournament. Concentrating on breathing could be another thing, but then I feel like I would have to meditate for a while, which takes time away from me actually playing the game with others and trying to improve. It's probably for the better though because I know I feel demotivated and play a lot worse when I am feeling depressed at a tournament.

I was also thinking of listening to music because I know some songs can help me to feel motivated again, or change my mood entirely. Not sure what your experiences are with listening to music as a form of meditation, but I'd like your thoughts on it regardless, PP.

 

[Kotastic]

^ I've had that problem with trying to meditate at noisy venues, so I really recommend earphones and play some calm music for meditation. During a set though when I take deep breaths between games, I generally don't pay attention to my surroundings by closing my eyes and concentrate on myself, thinking about things to calm me down.

 

[maclo4]

Do you think going to platforms is a good answer to falcos who like to laser in place a lot? Obviously normally its bad to be above your opponent, but I was thinking about it and falco doesnt have great options for attacking platforms. At least not like how marth or shiek do. Like from sh he can only hit me with upair on most stages, so he has to full hop if he wants to attack plat, in which case now Im below him

 

[Dr Peepee]

I've been experimenting using dtilt a lot more in neutral in the Marth vs. Falco matchup. I need to try it out more against various players but the concept is that it is like a low-risk low-reward dash attack. Landing it is similar because you need a read on their movement. Usually during the movement between falco's lasers.

At low percents it works similar to falco laser in the sense that once hit you have limited their options and can make a read on how they will react after the hit (Ex. dash away, jump out, spotdodge/roll). It seems like a much safer option than either dash attack or a raw grab. And once they start trying to jump over and aerial your dtilt that allows you to dashdance grab their approach.

At higher percents you can get a knock down (non-cc; 60%~ for tipper and 85%~ for the middle hitbox), which is a much safer alternative to get a knockdown than dash attack and overshoot fsmash. After the knockdown you get to do Marthly things to them.

Anyways I just wanted to hear your input on it or am I just grossly oversimplifying this?

I have no idea how you're consistently getting Dtilt in the Falco matchup when most Falcos are usually jumping/shooting, but if you can consistently hit it then that's pretty good and your logic works out fairly well. Fsmash tends to also work pretty well against Falco even at lower percents and can set up early kills with lower risk than most matchups so if you can hit Dtilt you should try Fsmash some too(less worry about hitting close at low percent as well).

PP, do you like having the reputation of having the best dash dance? Is that something you specifically aimed for (the title and/or specifically focusing on improving your dash dance)?

Just curious. I love your dash dance. :3 PPMD Kreygasm

Edit: Also, would you say at tournaments like Genesis where there's a storyline/hype match wanted, though of course everyone is trying to win, is there some weird satisfaction/redemption in losing to Mango? Like not in losing but the fact that he's moving on? I seriously wonder especially at Genesis 3 and 4 how top players feel about the storylines continuing. I also wonder how Ken feels when he gets Ken combo'd.

Like this: https://twitter.com/xd1x/status/688972649549049856

I do like it, but I feel my impact on punish game has been incredibly stifled as a result which is a bit frustrating sometimes. =p Still, I'm really happy all of my work on neutral ended up getting recognized since most people didn't pay attention to my Falco innovations like they did my Marth ones. Falco is too weird I guess.

At Genesis 2 I didn't care about setting up a storyline when I lost, but at Genesis 3 I was more okay with losing for that reason(though it's hard to separate my mentality and general condition from this maybe).

This past Sunday I was at a large monthly tournament where I had a sudden bout of depression occur halfway through the day that day. It started after I was eliminated from doubles and it only got worse as time went on. Honestly I wasn't sure of what to do in the moment as it was happening, but in hindsight, I could have probably meditated or listened to music or something, I'm just not sure what.

I feel like for meditating I need to be in an isolated space where there isn't any noise so that I can just focus on my thoughts. You unfortunately can't get that at every venue, so I feel like meditation can only work at some points. Unless I can just take in all of the background noise and try to meditate with that in mind? I'm not sure about the specifics of applying meditation while at a tournament. Concentrating on breathing could be another thing, but then I feel like I would have to meditate for a while, which takes time away from me actually playing the game with others and trying to improve. It's probably for the better though because I know I feel demotivated and play a lot worse when I am feeling depressed at a tournament.

I was also thinking of listening to music because I know some songs can help me to feel motivated again, or change my mood entirely. Not sure what your experiences are with listening to music as a form of meditation, but I'd like your thoughts on it regardless, PP.

Well, it's a bit difficult to say since I don't know why you got depressed. Whatever stimuli caused that would be important to address.

Besides that, I will stick to my usual speaking point that people's routines out of tournament are what solve their in-tournament problems. So if you aren't regularly meditating, don't expect meditating to magically solve your tourney problems since your mind will be cluttered and subject to variation. Same with practicing, or nerves, or food, or friendlies....and so on. For meditation specifically, if you can meditate often you can eventually do it even in a loud room because you will have improved concentration and ability to connect with yourself. This is just one example of what I'm talking about, but it's why I can't give a great answer. The ONLY thing you can do when difficult times hit at a tournament without training, in my view, is get yourself into a highly motivated state and do whatever you believe will work best to solve the problem. If that sounds vague, it's because it's fairly individual-specific. If you know of something that you associate with comfort or calm or happiness and can get that, it may help as well.

Do you think going to platforms is a good answer to falcos who like to laser in place a lot? Obviously normally its bad to be above your opponent, but I was thinking about it and falco doesnt have great options for attacking platforms. At least not like how marth or shiek do. Like from sh he can only hit me with upair on most stages, so he has to full hop if he wants to attack plat, in which case now Im below him

Yeah that's something I've played with too and it is really good. Runoff Fair deters Falco from coming in easily as well. However, I haven't really played with the position in detail from both ends on any stages, just casually abused it sometimes. So your mileage may vary. It's great for a breather if you have some space though.

 

[Doof_]

Do you think going to platforms is a good answer to falcos who like to laser in place a lot? Obviously normally its bad to be above your opponent, but I was thinking about it and falco doesnt have great options for attacking platforms. At least not like how marth or shiek do. Like from sh he can only hit me with upair on most stages, so he has to full hop if he wants to attack plat, in which case now Im below him

Platforms are definitely a good option to use vs. falco's lasers, but when playing marth any time you spend off the ground is a commitment. Meaning that if you become predictable with your use of platforms falco can really punish you.

CONS:
The main problem (assuming the falco is decent) with marth is getting down from the platform.
-Falco can cover an aerial of your's with lasers or a well placed and timed uptilt from falco stops almost every attempt to run off fair/any aerial marth has. Though, you could possibly get around this with shield dropping (specific tech) or double jumping to catch him (way too risky if you get caught without double jump).
-Your other options become to drop down without running off, but this corners you and allows falco to control center stage and you're back to square 1.
-Another option is going to top platform, but falco is honestly superior in every way at fighting on top platform.

PROS:
Now that I've gone over the flaws in this option, there are definitely benefits even for marth.
-Wavelanding over a platform works similar to rolling to center stage for avoiding an overshoot aerial trying to catch you in the corner.
-If falco is holding center stage and waiting patiently you can waveland to a double jump fake out with a safe distance away from him. This is relatively safe and requires falco to hard read the fake out to punish it.
-platform camping is definitely an option, but I haven't experimented with it enough to say if the risk/reward is worth it.
-As PP said waveland fair works well as long as the falco is not spacing around it/expecting it. In other words it is a good option with a clear way to beat it if you become predictable.

TL;DR
Platforms are a great tool to use against falco's lasers, but do not "solve" the problem of playing around them. For that you need to learn how to move on the ground between shots and use platforms as a mixup against him.

(This is my take on it, but please let me know if I glossed over some options/ideas or missed them completely)

 

[Doof_]

I have no idea how you're consistently getting Dtilt in the Falco matchup when most Falcos are usually jumping/shooting, but if you can consistently hit it then that's pretty good and your logic works out fairly well. Fsmash tends to also work pretty well against Falco even at lower percents and can set up early kills with lower risk than most matchups so if you can hit Dtilt you should try Fsmash some too(less worry about hitting close at low percent as well).

It works when falco lasers high to catch a jump or does retreating lasers to bait out dash attack. This idea is still very raw and I will need to figure out which options might influence falco to become susceptible to being dtilted, and I also definitely would need to study some recordings of me testing it out to let you know what situations it works. But, I'm glad you like the concept, and I will put more time into figuring out how to land the initial dtilt. I like it in theory because it gives marth higher risk options of dash attack and fsmash a lot more power as a mixup once they start playing around the dtilt.

 

[maclo4]

Platforms are definitely a good option to use vs. falco's lasers, but when playing marth any time you spend off the ground is a commitment. Meaning that if you become predictable with your use of platforms falco can really punish you.

CONS:
The main problem (assuming the falco is decent) with marth is getting down from the platform.
-Falco can cover an aerial of your's with lasers or a well placed and timed uptilt from falco stops almost every attempt to run off fair/any aerial marth has. Though, you could possibly get around this with shield dropping (specific tech) or double jumping to catch him (way too risky if you get caught without double jump).
-Your other options become to drop down without running off, but this corners you and allows falco to control center stage and you're back to square 1.
-Another option is going to top platform, but falco is honestly superior in every way at fighting on top platform.

PROS:
Now that I've gone over the flaws in this option, there are definitely benefits even for marth.
-Wavelanding over a platform works similar to rolling to center stage for avoiding an overshoot aerial trying to catch you in the corner.
-If falco is holding center stage and waiting patiently you can waveland to a double jump fake out with a safe distance away from him. This is relatively safe and requires falco to hard read the fake out to punish it.
-platform camping is definitely an option, but I haven't experimented with it enough to say if the risk/reward is worth it.
-As PP said waveland fair works well as long as the falco is not spacing around it/expecting it. In other words it is a good option with a clear way to beat it if you become predictable.

TL;DR
Platforms are a great tool to use against falco's lasers, but do not "solve" the problem of playing around them. For that you need to learn how to move on the ground between shots and use platforms as a mixup against him.

(This is my take on it, but please let me know if I glossed over some options/ideas or missed them completely)

Thanks and yea I'm not trying to "solve" the problem of lasers with this I've been experimenting with it when the falco plays the game of "I'm gonna laser and make you approach me". It seems to discourage this pretty well then I can go back to playing my normal game of punishing falcos approaches instead of being forced to aggro on his defensive options. Idk thats just my thought around trying it Ill have to play with it more.

And yea PP I was thinking about your falco punish game today cause I was playing falco in friendlies and I was doing the setup where I put a dair/nair way above where they are so that theyll jump into it and lose their DJ. And I said something about "thats the PP" and nobody actually knew what I was talking about ?? like I guess people just paid attention to your neutral so much they didnt really notice stuff like that

 

[maclo4]

Totally different thought, but I've been noticing that when I play some other non-marth characters it feels a lot easier to actually manipulate my opponents. Specifically I was playing samus and falco and having a projectile just really made it feel easier to condition people into doing what I want. Like as samus I could shoot missiles then read the jump or their shield or whatever, and as falco I could do similar stuff with lasers, but as marth it feels like people don't react in specific ways to the options I have. I'm sure people are reacting in certain ways, but it's a lot harder to see for me. Do you have any tips for how or what I can do that acts like missiles or lasers in the sense that I can use those to provoke certain actions that I can abuse? Or just how to see the patterns better than I am

 

[Dr Peepee]

For me, I kind of consider Dtilt a laser that's attached to Marth at all times(and laser a flying Dtilt lol). Basically it's about doing stuff that forces them to act just like a projectile does. So if you make your threat of Fair or grab or Dtilt or Fsmash or whatever attached to your dash/WD well you can reproduce reliable results. However, because of the opponents' understanding, your own, or the more abstract nature of threats, you can get varied responses even if you provoke them at similar times. So you may just need to spend more time breaking down these similar but different responses.

If you'd like something more concrete, then spend more time zoning. It's a clear visual cue that has you controlling your space and your opponent will respond to the lag created by it.

 

[HolidayMaker]

Do you or anyone else have an idea of when to add in an aerial when techchasing Peach assuming good DI? You seemed to be a big fan of AC nair to catch tech in place/wiggle out and then techchase the techrolls, and M2K does it too but replaces with fair now at slightly higher percents. However, I'm pretty sure you can't actually cover everything if they tech at really low percents with nair or fair. Any idea of when to add it in rather than just techchasing?

 

[Fazesupernappa]

I know this is a dumb question, but any tips on the Pichu-Marth matchup from the Pichu side? Any weaknesses I can exploit?

 

[HolidayMaker]

You pick Pikachu and stop trying to be a snowflake.

 

[Kopaka]

Goodluck to anyone here who's at Genesis 5! I'll be there :D

 

[Fazesupernappa]

;-;
Really though, any tips? I personally prefer the character over Pikachu because Pichu is just more fun (in my opinion) and has a pretty good chain grab game, at least against fast fallers. Also, good luck to you Kopaka!

 

[Dr Peepee]

Do you or anyone else have an idea of when to add in an aerial when techchasing Peach assuming good DI? You seemed to be a big fan of AC nair to catch tech in place/wiggle out and then techchase the techrolls, and M2K does it too but replaces with fair now at slightly higher percents. However, I'm pretty sure you can't actually cover everything if they tech at really low percents with nair or fair. Any idea of when to add it in rather than just techchasing?

You can Fair and still cover everything or most everything in many situations the way M2K does it. He explained it vaguely to me once. I guess once Fair knocks down you can use it anyway and just regrab until then, or do the Fair regardless for free damage since Peach can't punish out of it anyway. Nair knocks down super early on ASDI down so you don't have to worry about percent much for that.

I know this is a dumb question, but any tips on the Pichu-Marth matchup from the Pichu side? Any weaknesses I can exploit?

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Well if the Marth is using movement a lot, then just rush him down and force him to swing or wait for him to finally come in and intercept him. If he's moving less and swinging a lot then get in between his swings such as after Fair and before Dtilt for example if that's a common thing he does. Grab is not gonna work for you often.

 

[HolidayMaker]

I just think that as you get better you're going to realize Pika has the same playstyle and is less limited in just about every conceivable way. The only reason I can think someone would find pichu more fun is stunting on others, which is not more fun for them.

 

[Fazesupernappa]

Thanks for the tips PPMD :D

 

[Kotastic]

Got some questions regarding the Luigi mu

https://youtu.be/LV2cn9tvHtw?t=3m47s - Beginning of the match, I can understand why M2K went for a FH. It's a weirdly relatively safe thing Marth can do. I can even understand why he DJ on the way down to further cover his landing. What I don't get is after that, he jumps --> immediately DJs and landing fair.

He does it again https://youtu.be/LV2cn9tvHtw?t=4m25s and https://youtu.be/LV2cn9tvHtw?t=5m
I don't understand why M2K would do that (consider if he gets hit, he should be dead if the Luigi has decent punish game) or why it even works. Thoughts?

Also I'm kinda surprised I haven't asked this question earlier regarding juggling (more like clarification at this point), but here's a visual to my question: https://imgur.com/a/pznZ0
This is after the Luigi expended his DJ and has no choice but either to drift down. In that clip, M2K opted to cover the middle of it so at the very worst, Plup is cornered. I would do the same, but would you advocate that? Other things I should know?

As more advanced juggling questions, let's say Luigi does have his DJ in that position. He also has options to empty land, attack, or airdodge. Due to Marth's disjoint and sharking ability, attacking or empty landing shouldn't be ideal and most likely Luigi would airdodge or jump. Do you go out there to corner to threaten the up-air (potentially losing center), or maintain center so then at worst it's a reset but neutral favoring marth? This could apply to other characters as well.

 

[Dr Peepee]

The Marth DJ thing is an old strategy. It plays on dodging an opponent coming in or getting kinda close and then hitting them, which you need the height and early capabilities of DJ to do. It also usefully contorts Marth's hitbox and can encourage others to come in as a bonus(not to mention drift and FF mixups obv).

Yeah in that position I'd move to the right so that I'm between Luigi and center stage. This forces Luigi into my Fair/Uair or drifting offstage/to edge to avoid it and I can still hit him anyway.

Uair isn't great vs Luigi but Fair is so I'd be opting for that as for your last question(Uair in general is not something you want to use in most juggle situations, unless maybe it's late Uair). Threaten Fair, Bair if you have to(with Uair or DD/shield grab as final layer to reset/get better position), and be sure to cover their airdodge to platform since it's super common now. This often means getting onto side platforms to juggle instead of sitting on the ground, and is actually a problem I've seen in pretty much every Marth.

 

[Kotastic]

Why would you say that u-air is inferior to fair in most juggle situations? Is it because fair covers/threatens better and pushes them towards the corner of the stage?

For a lot of my juggle game, I've been using up-air/up-tilts to keep them in the air. Sometimes I dislike using fair because they DI out. Have I been doing this wrong the entire time, lol.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Well, the Uair is more likely to trade/lose than Fair is in my experience. That plus people DI'ing Uair in can just go to top platform or go past you toward center are other reasons that make me dislike it. Fair always pushes toward the edge if you're doing it right which is good. Now at lower percent Uair is better if you can hit it right because it will combo easier and they can't really escape, so it does depend. Also on DL if you Fair they're less likely to end up offstage or in a pretty bad position obviously, so it can depend.

 

[Doof_]

Would the same concept of using fair instead of upair work in other matchups? Because I am fairly confident on juggling/sharking Peach, but whenever I play a Sheik I cannot, for the life of me, keep them in the air after I bait out their double jump. I either trade or they get down because the difference between Sheik's fast fall and no fast fall is way bigger than Peach's. I probably just need to experience the matchup more, but is there anything I should know before I play a Sheik for hours on end?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah Fair is much better in general vs every character. Again, there are exceptions in situations like low percent and you're low to the ground, but Fair is often better on average.

 

[Arakune]

This strikes me as kind of an absurd question to ask, but lately as I've found myself being more passionate about improving every aspect of my play that I can hone in a solo 20xx utilizing environment, i'm quickly running out of situations for things I realize I can improve on. I'd describe my level of play as mid-high level with the ability to beat players in the 80-100 range on a very good day and in a matchup i'm familiar with, but no better than that. My basic movement, punishes, and recognition of situations I consider pretty good and I'm good at most mid-level techniques like shield dropping out of hitstun from neutral, tech chasing, reacting to moves immediately out of hitstun, amsah teching when i'm about to be hit, edgecancelling, slideoff DI, ledgedashing, etc. The issue is that as I run through each of these ideas and weak aspects of my play 1 by 1 in 20xx, I'm running out of new ones while I'm clearly still not an incredible player with no weaknesses (far from it.) And on the rare occasion I play someone around my level or substantially above it, I feel as if I'm getting exploited but I can't put my finger on how or why. I'm not creative or attentive enough (though I try to be) to come up with new ideas or to notice specific inconsistencies in my play from watching sets and simply grind those. Nor is there enough recorded content of me playing from my one weekly (which i normally win somewhat easily) for me to really pick apart. I'm stuck here with the equivalent of writer's block, completely out of ideas for ways I can improve on my own besides mindlessly moving around the stage, grinding the things I've already grinded even further (for some reason?) and comboing AIs to generate rock solid muscle memory for my punish game.

My question is this: Do you have something you'd consider a comprehensive list of all of the things a good Marth player should have mastered and never screw up? This includes movement options, matchup specific things, percent specific things, option selects, position specific things, etc. Or, do you have some method with which to easily take an enormous amount of data and derive many things you can improve from a single piece of footage, particularly a onesided one?

Also I just thought about another unrelated question I've always struggled with, though this one's a bit more blatant. How the hell do you get out of the corner, specifically vs spacies who overshoot? dash dancing into the corner and ASDIing the nair is nice and all, but when the nair (or whatever) pushes you off the stage when you ASDI down, it's pointless. Running into them seems kind of pointless but if I try to remain in the corner and stuff out or react to their approaches, I find I either don't have enough time to react, or they're simply too close to me. I've read a lot about what you've said regarding threat ranges and that kind of thing so I get the idea, but if you're already in their optimal range and the stage ends behind you, meaning they have position, have you in their best range, and there's no way to create more distance by dashing back, how can you escape from them or make the situation favorable? Going to the ledge puts you in a bad spot, jumping and platform options are punishable and risky, obviously things like roll and spotdodges are complete gambles and can sometimes even be covered completely by option selects. I really really struggle in these spots in every relevant matchup (sheik and falcon have safe shield pressure after aerials and can cover escapes on reaction, spacies with overshooting are obnoxious and being forced to shield against them when ASDI won't work is a death sentence, but you can't use movement to outspace them either when the stage restricts you.) and i'm completely unsure what options are even available to me. The only thing I can think of that I basically never do is to simply risk it and dash right into them, hoping that I'll get under their overshoot or shield pressure or whatever the case may be, and then they'll be the one in the corner. But all it would take for them to stop me from doing that is to recognize it's an option, hold center stage without committing to the corner, and wall me out with safe disjointed hitboxes. Hopefully you can enlighten me.

I also do an overwhelming majority of my non-solo practice on netplay. I've been reaching out to top players on facebook, twitter, twitch, wherever I can access them and asking them to play me in a serious manner, in the hopes that the higher level practice will allow me to gain some further insight and ideas, but as you can expect for a relative nobody like myself most of them don't give me the time of day. I really need to be able to improve on my own substantially and you're the master of that. Any advice you have on the matter would mean a lot to me.

 

[Dr Peepee]

The good news about playing alone in my opinion is there is always something new to learn, especially with the tools we have now. Something simple is making sure you don't lose frames doing basic tech. So perfect WDs and full length WDs, having perfect control over them, combining them with dashes or aerials or both to end up exactly where you want, or starting in various positions on various stages and seeing EXACTLY what you can and can't reach from that position with common tools. Can you hit a Fox standing at one edge of a platform from the middle of DL? What about the other? What about where he might move to? This aspect of stage knowledge and tech is rarely explored and yet is so important for giving you proper footing in a given situation.

Some other quick ideas off the top of my head:

-frame-tight haxdashes

-general edgeplay mixup(the pullback land on edge Leffen Fair is good, combined with regrab mixups and NIL jab/Fsmash/wait, etc)

-AC Nair frame-tight practice, RC/WD Dtilt frame-tight practice(with WD distance changing), Nair/Fair into moving frame-tight, etc

-you didn't mention edge teching or SDI so I'll include those just in case

-shadowboxing and other neutral mixups, which are infinitely deep and really are the primary reason you will always have something new to learn. i can't explain it all shortly here, but I write about it a lot in this thread and my Falco one, so I suggest looking around at some previous posts to get an idea about it.

While I don't have a comprehensive list, I think I should make one at some point. These are the types of ideas I'd include in it and more.



Your one option you haven't tried is a very good one vs spacies that like to jump in lol. Dash/WD through them is pretty good since Marth gets low to the ground and they pull their leg up to Nair and you go under them pretty easily. I also like jab and Fair, with jab being more preferred against Fox, but Falco gets a strong preference for jab if he has just lasered you. The main thing is to stop moving and start abusing your disjoint instead. It's a losing position because of what you said, but really spacies shouldn't be beating you by outranging you and will need to out time you. This means they need to encourage you to swing then punish your lag, or make you afraid to swing then hit you in your indecision. So if you make them wait or prepare their opening to see what you will do if you're including run through them, this gives you time and breathing room. This allows you to push forward into them during their observation/preparation time and forces them back OR makes them commit, but you can now back up and punish them with retreating Fair or pivot grab since you've moved forward. In short, you must abuse what advantages you have and outplay them to win a bad position. All else fails then this is why you have to practice the edge game so you don't mind going there so much lol.

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

Damn PP, like I told you a while ago I have been reading through this thread (I got interested in doing so after seeing your solo practice post again for the first time in a long time, and realizing I ohad only ever saw what you posted in the falco thread). I actually came in assuming you stopped posting in 2013/2014 like almost everyone else from back in the day... I had no idea you were still pumping out posts to this day (and at a higher rate/more deeply than ever before)! I’ve been reading through this thread on my phone for the past month(just finished now) and have been taking screenshots of all the really useful posts (which after a point in 2014 kind of just became 95% you lmao)

It has been extremely interesting seeing the overall change in the theme of discussion of this thread. By 2011 Cactuar had already stopped making serious posts and there wasn’t really a lot of theory being posted because there weren’t a lot of deep game/marth theory being posted about, mostly just what moves are good and what to do in certain matchups. Your posts in 2012 on Marth pressure, timing/spacing mixups and that early puff matchup guide reallly got the thread going about neutral game and conditioning. That 2012 year had a lot stuff about variable timings on the moves you to condition the opponent. 2013 in stark comparison became the Umbreon thread, consisting only of “only uthrow, don’t do moves that aren’t grab, don’t nair, mixups are overated” (I used to hate his posts back in the day but now I like his core ideas, but I do think they were too extreme). 2014 was a lot about Inner Game stuff, and because of smash boards dying this also marked the beginning of this thread changing from more of a discussion to “newer players gather and siphon pp knowledge”. 2015 had a lot more punish game refinement talk and it seems like the punish game talk kind of goes directly against a lot of that 2013 stuff, like using other throws to tech chase, not uthrowing samus/peach, and using moves more than movement in certain positions/matchups. 2016/2017 topics were really broad since it’s more you responding to questions from others, but TR and realllllly separating the components of movement and refining them to all have intention came up a lot. Of course this is all really general, but just some trends I noticed while reading through.

Anyway I’ve been out of the game for about 2 years now, but reading through all this has really made me interested in coming back and refining my own game. After reading so many posts dissecting the neutral/punish game, there’s so much that I may have intuitively known after years of playing, but that I didn’t realize could be SO MUCH more taken apart and refined. My view of the game and ways of practicing have completely changed, thank you PP! I’m go gonna read through the falco thread as well (as I mentioned earlier, I had no idea your posts continued after 2013 lmao)

Cheers!

 

[Kotastic]

Reminiscing about my past locals as of late, I've been noticing constant dissatisfaction in my play and often being really disappointed/angry to myself when I lose. Perhaps it's due to my analyses that I know I should be doing more or the burden of being ranked (maybe both?), but I know more than ever that I'm being more critical to myself compared to months earlier. Even though I'm still overall improving in terms of my gameplay and results, I always expect more from myself. So much so that I feel apathetic/sad/angry when I lose because I know I can do more, or I felt like I basically let them win. In terms of my gameplay, it sort of serves as a catalyst for me to improve more.

However, it comes with the cost with my post-tournament experience. This one local I volunteered to help out, I ended up doing half-assed minimum work and left early due to my losses in a heartbreaking fashion. Another, I bailed out on some friends because I felt like I should've upsetted my opponent if I implemented my strategy to not let him pressure me so much for free throughout the set (idk why I didn't implement it, I was dumb in that moment) and if my edgeguarding wasn't so ass. Another, I was so close to taking a ranked SoCal PR'd player to the ropes after making a deep run but failed. I couldn't help but be that guy that whines about his loss to my friends that listened. None of these are pleasant experiences.

However, I'm conflicted to what extent should I modify my responses/mindset post-losses. On one hand, they serve as motivators for me to come back stronger and make my victories even sweeter. On the other, they really do sully post-tournaments that was rarely an issue months ago. Thoughts?

 

[LordTakeo]

Reminiscing about my past locals as of late, I've been noticing constant dissatisfaction in my play and often being really disappointed/angry to myself when I lose. Perhaps it's due to my analyses that I know I should be doing more or the burden of being ranked (maybe both?), but I know more than ever that I'm being more critical to myself compared to months earlier. Even though I'm still overall improving in terms of my gameplay and results, I always expect more from myself. So much so that I feel apathetic/sad/angry when I lose because I know I can do more, or I felt like I basically let them win. In terms of my gameplay, it sort of serves as a catalyst for me to improve more.

However, it comes with the cost with my post-tournament experience. This one local I volunteered to help out, I ended up doing half-***** minimum work and left early due to my losses in a heartbreaking fashion. Another, I bailed out on some friends because I felt like I should've upsetted my opponent if I implemented my strategy to not let him pressure me so much for free throughout the set (idk why I didn't implement it, I was dumb in that moment) and if my edgeguarding wasn't so ***. Another, I was so close to taking a ranked SoCal PR'd player to the ropes after making a deep run but failed. I couldn't help but be that guy that whines about his loss to my friends that listened. None of these are pleasant experiences.

However, I'm conflicted to what extent should I modify my responses/mindset post-losses. On one hand, they serve as motivators for me to come back stronger and make my victories even sweeter. On the other, they really do sully post-tournaments that was rarely an issue months ago. Thoughts?

You aren't the only good player in the world.
See it like that. They managed to beat you, they are at your level, if not even above, and it should exite you, that you managed to find worthy opponents.

Winning by far isn't everything. You did become better at this game, because it is your passion, did you not? Grow at your own pace, become better -with- your opponents, because you are not the only one who tries their best, and plays and trains to get better. The bad players, are those that stop. Not those that keep at it.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Damn PP, like I told you a while ago I have been reading through this thread (I got interested in doing so after seeing your solo practice post again for the first time in a long time, and realizing I ohad only ever saw what you posted in the falco thread). I actually came in assuming you stopped posting in 2013/2014 like almost everyone else from back in the day... I had no idea you were still pumping out posts to this day (and at a higher rate/more deeply than ever before)! I’ve been reading through this thread on my phone for the past month(just finished now) and have been taking screenshots of all the really useful posts (which after a point in 2014 kind of just became 95% you lmao)

It has been extremely interesting seeing the overall change in the theme of discussion of this thread. By 2011 Cactuar had already stopped making serious posts and there wasn’t really a lot of theory being posted because there weren’t a lot of deep game/marth theory being posted about, mostly just what moves are good and what to do in certain matchups. Your posts in 2012 on Marth pressure, timing/spacing mixups and that early puff matchup guide reallly got the thread going about neutral game and conditioning. That 2012 year had a lot stuff about variable timings on the moves you to condition the opponent. 2013 in stark comparison became the Umbreon thread, consisting only of “only uthrow, don’t do moves that aren’t grab, don’t nair, mixups are overated” (I used to hate his posts back in the day but now I like his core ideas, but I do think they were too extreme). 2014 was a lot about Inner Game stuff, and because of smash boards dying this also marked the beginning of this thread changing from more of a discussion to “newer players gather and siphon pp knowledge”. 2015 had a lot more punish game refinement talk and it seems like the punish game talk kind of goes directly against a lot of that 2013 stuff, like using other throws to tech chase, not uthrowing samus/peach, and using moves more than movement in certain positions/matchups. 2016/2017 topics were really broad since it’s more you responding to questions from others, but TR and realllllly separating the components of movement and refining them to all have intention came up a lot. Of course this is all really general, but just some trends I noticed while reading through.

Anyway I’ve been out of the game for about 2 years now, but reading through all this has really made me interested in coming back and refining my own game. After reading so many posts dissecting the neutral/punish game, there’s so much that I may have intuitively known after years of playing, but that I didn’t realize could be SO MUCH more taken apart and refined. My view of the game and ways of practicing have completely changed, thank you PP! I’m go gonna read through the falco thread as well (as I mentioned earlier, I had no idea your posts continued after 2013 lmao)

Cheers!

Wow that change in theme is actually really cool. I was thinking about the throw changes some myself and how we had gotten into the nitty-gritty on TR lately, but I hadn't had a full perspective like this. Thanks for taking the time out to write this man, and I do wish others had the same curiosity about learning as you do =)

Reminiscing about my past locals as of late, I've been noticing constant dissatisfaction in my play and often being really disappointed/angry to myself when I lose. Perhaps it's due to my analyses that I know I should be doing more or the burden of being ranked (maybe both?), but I know more than ever that I'm being more critical to myself compared to months earlier. Even though I'm still overall improving in terms of my gameplay and results, I always expect more from myself. So much so that I feel apathetic/sad/angry when I lose because I know I can do more, or I felt like I basically let them win. In terms of my gameplay, it sort of serves as a catalyst for me to improve more.

However, it comes with the cost with my post-tournament experience. This one local I volunteered to help out, I ended up doing half-***** minimum work and left early due to my losses in a heartbreaking fashion. Another, I bailed out on some friends because I felt like I should've upsetted my opponent if I implemented my strategy to not let him pressure me so much for free throughout the set (idk why I didn't implement it, I was dumb in that moment) and if my edgeguarding wasn't so ***. Another, I was so close to taking a ranked SoCal PR'd player to the ropes after making a deep run but failed. I couldn't help but be that guy that whines about his loss to my friends that listened. None of these are pleasant experiences.

However, I'm conflicted to what extent should I modify my responses/mindset post-losses. On one hand, they serve as motivators for me to come back stronger and make my victories even sweeter. On the other, they really do sully post-tournaments that was rarely an issue months ago. Thoughts?

Hmmmmm

So I know that a common, effective strategy for growth is to focus on your weaknesses and polish them. This is what I did as well. I don't necessarily have an issue with this. I have an issue with the judgments that follow mentally. So you lose and the truth is you didn't apply something you knew or were exposed in some way you were aware of. This isn't bad! What is bad would be then saying "this shouldn't have happened." The acceptance of "what is" is just so important for progress because of things like this. It's like in the inner game when at first you may just judge something negatively, then make generalizations about the game or characters or people, and finally judge yourself. These base thoughts and responses to the experience are what we want to change. If that's the case, then I have an exercise that has worked well for changing my responses to negativity. What I do is imagine that something happens which is difficult for me to handle, and then I imagine my normal responses and thinking. I then try to ask myself "what should I be thinking ideally instead?" Then I begin to try and insert those things in instead. Naturally, I will resist. At this point I have to discuss with myself why I would resist and if it's possible to be honest and compassionate to myself while still working hard, and of course it is. But sometimes getting there is a struggle. Eventually I can begin substituting the new thinking and feeling more easily and I can begin training myself to do this automatically if I repeat the exercise enough. I found results pretty quickly with this, and whenever I slip it still works for me. I would recommend trying it out.

 

[Kotastic]

Just wanted to say that Melee is such a beautiful game. Dunno how else to put it. Genesis reminded and re-inspired me with how much great sets it produced throughout Top 64 and beyond.

One day, I'll show the world how busted Marth is.

 

[Arakune]

Your advice has been a tremendous help. I've spent the last few hours grinding out niche difficult tech skill options (like haxdashing) and not only do I see the new amount of opportunities and mixups I can create with this option and others like it, I'm also conveniently finding inconsistencies in other aspects of my movement which I take the quick opportunity to spend a handful of minutes polishing as well (will continue to do this probably several times a day until everything's equally consistent.) and i'm beginning to be able to think outside the box of creative setups and ways to use these new tools. Combined with your advice of "set up situations where you're not super sure what your options and your opponent's options are, how far you can reach, what you can do off a movement read, etc" and grinding them, I feel like I'm learning concrete information that will come to me in that moment but isn't distracting from the overall moment to moment gameplay. (having to constantly remind yourself to asdi down when you DD and remembering to move to the shield drop notch quickly during shieldstun on a platform are little examples of this) This is great, as adding too many of these things can severely detract from your neutral, and the speed of your decision making imo. By grinding out the individual scenarios and learning for myself what to do in each, I can automate large aspects of my game without sacrificing speed or decision making. (May even make me faster) and while I think this may have a potential negative effect of making my play too flowcharty, I can simply start developing mixups once people become familiar enough with what I'm doing to punish it. Especially against people I don't play that often it may take them a considerable amount of time to adapt in the first place, considering i'm only choosing solid options, which leaves me plenty of time to come up with alternatives. I absolutely love this as an idea for further expansion, especially in the neutral game. Thanks so much.

 

[Farco]

I have an arcadian coming up this weekend that I know I have a shot at winning. Are there any suggestions to help me prepare for it, especially in terms of developing a good mindset? I've been able to keep myself focused in the past, but yesterday I did worse than usual at a weekly because of anxiety while playing, and I don't want the same thing to happen at the arcadian.

 

[Dr Peepee]

It can be pretty helpful to think of how you normally hold yourself mentally and physically and return to those things that make you successful. When you get stressed you tend to turn away from those.

It can also be good to do generally helpful things such as sleep eat and meditate well, and of course exercise. Keeps your mind clear so you can focus on your goals, which you should do instead of focusing on your fears.

 

[Aksorz1336]

What's your opinion on performance-enhancing beverages or snacks, such as energy drinks or effervescent tablets, both when competing and when practicing? Many top players seem to stick to the H2O, but Armada amongst others happily pops a Monster before a set. Do you know of anyone going hardcore on this outside of what you can see on the streams?

I've never stayed in a bracket long enough to have experienced it myself but I can imagine that an energy drink might give you some serious fluctuations in focus levels. At the same time, I personally feel like one can help to give you the strength to grind out solo-practice or netplay sessions when you're feeling low.

 

[Kotastic]

Hey PP,

I've applied your advice regarding non-judgmental thinking with a more productive way of handling my losses. I've incorporated it into my daily meditation and exercised thinking in that way, and for the first time in awhile my post-tournament experience to a local I went today wasn't sullied. Despite being massacred in winners by Cal and getting upsetted in losers, I didn't feel horrible about it. I acknowledged and accepted that I got outplayed in various situations, and those are weak points I need to fix.

Speaking of weak points, I think my positioning game with Peach/Sheik is poor. I won against a good Luigi player and studied the matchup extensively to know certain positions that Luigi is not good at, as well as replacing fair with u-air in most cases with my juggling game, and it has paid dividends. With Peach...I feel like I just let her slip through my fingers too often and give her too much free reign. I know the answer is to be within WD d-tilt range and be right outside of Peach's DA range, but often I have trouble visualizing and applying this. Can you link an example where this is best applied?

As for Sheik....I dunno I feel like positioning is a bit trickier. I would think it's moreso about movement and smart fair placements. Thoughts on that?

 

[quixotic]

I've been struggling to beat fox/falco bad nair approach in front of marth->roll back because I wait for immediate spotdodge and find myself in an awkward position against the roll. Is there a strong way to beat roll while still covering spotdodge and jab well?

 

[Socrates]

I've been struggling to beat fox/falco bad nair approach in front of marth->roll back because I wait for immediate spotdodge and find myself in an awkward position against the roll. Is there a strong way to beat roll while still covering spotdodge and jab well?

If they’re positioned for a bad nair you can probably pivot grab before they can roll

 

[Dr Peepee]

What's your opinion on performance-enhancing beverages or snacks, such as energy drinks or effervescent tablets, both when competing and when practicing? Many top players seem to stick to the H2O, but Armada amongst others happily pops a Monster before a set. Do you know of anyone going hardcore on this outside of what you can see on the streams?

I've never stayed in a bracket long enough to have experienced it myself but I can imagine that an energy drink might give you some serious fluctuations in focus levels. At the same time, I personally feel like one can help to give you the strength to grind out solo-practice or netplay sessions when you're feeling low.

Short answer: short term okay(ish), long term probably not.

Longer answer: There tend to be downsides with things like energy drinks and adderall for certain people for even a one time use such as crashes, but for long term use there seem to be downsides for everyone as far as I can tell. So since I recommend health for people to compete well, I cannot advocate for these things.

That being said, water, certain mental techniques such as meditation and mindfulness and visualization, and exercise are some examples of "performance enhancers" that I think carry little downside and have proven results over the long term for health and performance. Water is not a skill of course, but in general my rule on it seems to have turned into "if it's something you can train then the payoff is probably worth investing into for performance, but if it's something you take it's probably not." Food is obviously another example where the line can be blurry for this rule, but finding healthy food consistently and easily in America is probably a skill on its own lol so maybe that's debatable too.

Hey PP,

I've applied your advice regarding non-judgmental thinking with a more productive way of handling my losses. I've incorporated it into my daily meditation and exercised thinking in that way, and for the first time in awhile my post-tournament experience to a local I went today wasn't sullied. Despite being massacred in winners by Cal and getting upsetted in losers, I didn't feel horrible about it. I acknowledged and accepted that I got outplayed in various situations, and those are weak points I need to fix.

Speaking of weak points, I think my positioning game with Peach/Sheik is poor. I won against a good Luigi player and studied the matchup extensively to know certain positions that Luigi is not good at, as well as replacing fair with u-air in most cases with my juggling game, and it has paid dividends. With Peach...I feel like I just let her slip through my fingers too often and give her too much free reign. I know the answer is to be within WD d-tilt range and be right outside of Peach's DA range, but often I have trouble visualizing and applying this. Can you link an example where this is best applied?

As for Sheik....I dunno I feel like positioning is a bit trickier. I would think it's moreso about movement and smart fair placements. Thoughts on that?

That's awesome that it worked man! I hope you stick with the practice.

Apex 2015 vs Armada around 4:53 we both move in, but I have time to move back because of Marth's lean on his dash. Recognizing I have advantage, I quickly move forward again. I think in the early 4 minute mark somewhere I also apply this.

I've been struggling to beat fox/falco bad nair approach in front of marth->roll back because I wait for immediate spotdodge and find myself in an awkward position against the roll. Is there a strong way to beat roll while still covering spotdodge and jab well?

Hm I never played against that mixup myself but it makes sense why it would be a problem. If you want, you can try to grab the lag while holding down so you ASDI down the jab so you can fight closer up and force more jabs. Besides that, maybe Fsmash their landing more since it's good damage and pushes them offstage or into a corner which is more likely to give you good position. You can also Dtilt/Fair/Nair for some similar reasons. You could also get a bit trickier with it and opt to hold down as if you'd Dtilt/Fsmash/CC grab then dash/WD in punish the roll. You could also WD in to grab spotdodge/roll as they land(just dash out of WD if they roll) and you'll get to hold down vs jab too. You probably can't cover everything, so it's best to switch up covering different options in a 3/4 format or 2/3 or however you want to break it down for yourself.