Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Dr Peepee]

Okay so first of all when I say top level I'm saying top 6/7, with qualifiers. Many people will say top 100 is top level or their local high PR'd player is top level but many of these players don't often practice or analyze or even play that much sometimes so that is not representative of a thoroughly prepared and understanding player to me.

I have noticed two very particular problems that get Marths blown up. There are others, but these two seem to be the worst:

1. Barely missing an opponent. Barely may mean in spacing terms, but often if you're drifting in this is a death sentence. Also, it usually leads to another problem, swinging a lot and getting into the heavy lag Marth has. So he pays a lot for being incorrect, or-

2. Inefficiencies kill him harder than other characters. If his punishes or kill setups are inefficient, he suffers way more than a Fox spamming usmash will eventually get lucky or a Sheik spamming Fair. As mentioned before, his lag hurts him a lot as well so if his movement is too excessive or he drops a combo he may end up close to an opponent in lag and off-balance which is very much the worst place to be for him. This happens a lot even in the case of someone like PPU, and it gets heavily exploited by Falcon and Sheik who can both prey on Marth's inefficiencies in various ways such as not getting edgeguarded well without a deeper flowchart.

 

[Kotastic]

Is this precisely the reason why PPU loves the Falco mu because of his brutal efficiency in that mu, but he doesn't like other mu's as much for lack of efficiency?

Also, there's a similar scenario I asked about and I want to make sure I got my concept of movement down when abusing someone in the corner: https://youtu.be/qSr8E3HkKAU?t=14m19s

You dashed in and side-B to catch his landing, which Hugs shielded from a distance anticipating another side-B. With Hugs' shield dissipating, he wants to move in as soon as he can at intervals where he can shield and punish your dash in side-B. However, you mix up your dash patterns with dash in with dash back instead of side-B to mix up Hugs' timing ever so slightly to get an f-smash the moment he dropped shield.

I want to get this concept down because I have a feeling that these kind of movement mixups can really elevate my corner pressure game.

Also another simple question: Why not just run up grab them? Is it because the reward is too low and getting an f-smash means that you can actually kill them?

Edit:

Alright, never before have I felt so inspired by your movement. I was analyzing your set to learn more about the Samus matchup, but I think I walked away having a stepping stone to be a significantly better player. This is the moment I'm talking about right here: https://youtu.be/qSr8E3HkKAU?t=16m15s

I can barely comprehend what occurred with your absurd movement timings. I think some of it was bad play on Hugs' part for being overly reliant on shield, but cmon that movement. You dash in, indicating that you might attack which triggered Hugs' shield. You don't attack immediately, as you opt to dash back and in a couple times to finally WD d-tilt to catch Hugs' WD back. You get your second d-tilt by dashing in and dashing back and then dashing back in to WD d-tilt to catch Hugs once again WD back. At this point, you have Hugs totally cornered at which you are exerting so much pressure that he's trying to f-tilt out of it, but you simply WD back then WD in d-tilt to retaliate his attack and then proceed to pressure Hugs' shield with safe aerials as if he's a damn space toy and agghghhh

You say to practice this sort of thing by doing simple movements and observing my opponent. At the time, I kinda disregarded the advice for a little while because I felt like I didn't understand the simple mechanics of the game enough to delve into something that advanced. Now...I think I'm ready to delve into this sort of venture. I want to elevate my gameplay, and with all I've learned in the past months, I think this will do a lot.

 

[HolidayMaker]

2 Quick questions, one about the ditto and one about vs Peach:

You, M2K, and Rishi all basically don't shield turnips. You tend to full jump to answer turnips, M2K tends to DD or jump back, Rishi likes fair->catch more (although he obv doesn't always), and you all nair/fair through misspaced throws. Can you explain the thought process of the full jump answer and when to use it? It looks like it works astoundingly well in your sets vs Armada but I don't see many other Marths do it. I'm talking in neutral btw, not to get out of the corner, which I understand is definitely quite different.

In the Marth ditto, my edgeguards are lackluster when my opponent still has their double jump. I tend to either miss an offstage edgeguard or I give up the ledge for free. Say the opposing Marth still has their double jump and is in range to get ledge with it. Maybe they have their side b, maybe not. What do you do? I've been experimenting with take ledge stuff, and Reeve was using AC ledgehop nair->CC their up B when I played him recently, but what do you tend to like? Anything has to be better than just giving ledge for free >.>

 

[Dr Peepee]

Is this precisely the reason why PPU loves the Falco mu because of his brutal efficiency in that mu, but he doesn't like other mu's as much for lack of efficiency?

Also, there's a similar scenario I asked about and I want to make sure I got my concept of movement down when abusing someone in the corner: https://youtu.be/qSr8E3HkKAU?t=14m19s

You dashed in and side-B to catch his landing, which Hugs shielded from a distance anticipating another side-B. With Hugs' shield dissipating, he wants to move in as soon as he can at intervals where he can shield and punish your dash in side-B. However, you mix up your dash patterns with dash in with dash back instead of side-B to mix up Hugs' timing ever so slightly to get an f-smash the moment he dropped shield.

I want to get this concept down because I have a feeling that these kind of movement mixups can really elevate my corner pressure game.

Also another simple question: Why not just run up grab them? Is it because the reward is too low and getting an f-smash means that you can actually kill them?

Edit:

Alright, never before have I felt so inspired by your movement. I was analyzing your set to learn more about the Samus matchup, but I think I walked away having a stepping stone to be a significantly better player. This is the moment I'm talking about right here: https://youtu.be/qSr8E3HkKAU?t=16m15s

I can barely comprehend what occurred with your absurd movement timings. I think some of it was bad play on Hugs' part for being overly reliant on shield, but cmon that movement. You dash in, indicating that you might attack which triggered Hugs' shield. You don't attack immediately, as you opt to dash back and in a couple times to finally WD d-tilt to catch Hugs' WD back. You get your second d-tilt by dashing in and dashing back and then dashing back in to WD d-tilt to catch Hugs once again WD back. At this point, you have Hugs totally cornered at which you are exerting so much pressure that he's trying to f-tilt out of it, but you simply WD back then WD in d-tilt to retaliate his attack and then proceed to pressure Hugs' shield with safe aerials as if he's a damn space toy and agghghhh

You say to practice this sort of thing by doing simple movements and observing my opponent. At the time, I kinda disregarded the advice for a little while because I felt like I didn't understand the simple mechanics of the game enough to delve into something that advanced. Now...I think I'm ready to delve into this sort of venture. I want to elevate my gameplay, and with all I've learned in the past months, I think this will do a lot.

His efficiency is better in the matchup yes, and it also helps that Falco players are not especially efficient either lol.

Hugs is in a bad position because he can't even WD to edge here, has no room to move, can't even really punish OOS, and was previously in a bad position in addition to being at high percent. This makes him all very likely to want to get OOS and into me ASAP. Grabbing gets no reward for such a strong position but Fsmash does by taking advantage of these factors. Now, you don't have to do all of the movement I did there and could just space instead and do a little more waiting like the Zain/Rishi types do and that's perfectly fine. If you want to use my movement, then yes the dash away is probably what he's reacting to and I meet him as he thinks he's safe to come in.

2 Quick questions, one about the ditto and one about vs Peach:

You, M2K, and Rishi all basically don't shield turnips. You tend to full jump to answer turnips, M2K tends to DD or jump back, Rishi likes fair->catch more (although he obv doesn't always), and you all nair/fair through misspaced throws. Can you explain the thought process of the full jump answer and when to use it? It looks like it works astoundingly well in your sets vs Armada but I don't see many other Marths do it. I'm talking in neutral btw, not to get out of the corner, which I understand is definitely quite different.

In the Marth ditto, my edgeguards are lackluster when my opponent still has their double jump. I tend to either miss an offstage edgeguard or I give up the ledge for free. Say the opposing Marth still has their double jump and is in range to get ledge with it. Maybe they have their side b, maybe not. What do you do? I've been experimenting with take ledge stuff, and Reeve was using AC ledgehop nair->CC their up B when I played him recently, but what do you tend to like? Anything has to be better than just giving ledge for free >.>

FH can't really be hit by turnip, and lets you drift right into Peach to pressure her and you can even swing through any possible turnip throw on the way down if need be. Normally you don't FH/jump against Peach due to her DA and sometimes her aerials, but you don't have to worry about either nearly as much when she's holding a turnip.

Let go Bair, runoff Fair, edgehop Dair, let go DJ back Bair....I think are the main options but they can be pretty specific so you'll need to mess around with them. Runoff Fair is often easiest but if they're super close and low percent it won't work.

 

[HolidayMaker]

Thank you, that was actually very cogent and helpful.

One more question: You do a lot of in place dash/WD/Cactus dash or whatever you call it (when you WD one way and dash the other to cancel momentum) when you have people cornered, I assume to fake forward pressure and be mobile without jumping or surrendering stage. Can you explain what reactions you're looking for off of this? Just any commit or something more specific?

Also in terms of methodology do you emphasize getting the shortest possible dash or a really long WD or what? For the life of my I can't get them perfectly stationary like you.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah faking forward pressure, but not moving back despite looking like it. It's also jarring visually, is very strange in terms of timing as you WD then dash quickly but then stall out, and you have the option of dashing in to grab as well among other things.

I think to get it in place you just need to time your dash correctly moreso than worry about the WD, though it might be about dashing during a specific part of the WD? Never really thought about it lol but I'm pretty sure it's the first thing.

 

[Inkfathom]

I'm a relatively new player and I'm having difficulty getting up from the ledge as marth. A lot of my options seem to be beat by crouch cancel or attacks right after my invincibility ends. Should I try practicing fast ledgedashes, fast NIL grabs, or what? Should I mix in rolls, or will that just give me bad habits?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah NIL Fsmash/grab/jab are all good, as is haxdash, and fast edgedashes into jab/up-B can be invincible if you do them super well. Roll from edge or edgedash roll can be an option too sometimes. Be sure to also mix up your regrab timings!

 

[ChivalRuse]

Is regular ledge stand (<100%) worth going for occasionally? Peach players seem to get away with it a lot.

Edit: I'm not sure if NIL is strictly better or not.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I like regular edge stand sometimes out of a regrab, but I think NIL is usually better on average as an option. People having to space away from Fair helps with this a lot.

 

[Kotastic]

Once again, I see your movement clearly exerting pressure against your opponent as demonstrated here: https://youtu.be/jrRtAg3QOn8?t=1m5s

Here's one thing I noticed that this clip and the Hugs example have in common: they're in shield and cornered, leading me to believe that shielding is their "afraid" button making your movement pressure even more effective. I want to learn more about the psychology behind this. What exactly triggers their shield in the first place? With Hugs, I can understand more since he wanted to block side-B, but with $mike he seemed to do it moreso out of fear than anything when you're about to threaten a forward approach.

I remember Plup's perspective on Marth that Marth is scary and doesn't know what to do when Marth dash dances, but on the other side of the spectrum people like Faceroll absolutely don't care and somehow finds his grab to a devastating punish (as I've been on the butt end of it).

Do you think it's primarily because current Marths suck at mixing up their little movement to throw off their opponent's countermeasures? I've done some self-reflecting, and I admit that I'm one of those Marths that just "dash dance camps." I don't really observe my opponents' tendencies and habits and only look out for the whiff punish range. That's why Faceroll farms all of us Marth mains. PP, on the other hand, actually uses his dashes to indicate threats and mixes up each and individual dashes to punish the opponents' panic options or quirks.

I still have so much to learn under this department, so more guidance under this complex part of the game would be very much appreciated.

 

[UnderTheKnife]

Hey PP,

Thanks so much for giving everyone an update! It seems like you're doing a lot better and that's great news. Hopefully your progress keeps on that upward trend - from what I can gather this hasn't been an obstacle just in regards to smash but to your whole life, and going through that's gotta be rough. Props to you for never giving up dude.

I took your advice and spent some time just exploring Marth's options solo in 20xx and assigning different moves to broad categories. I.E. dash forward = threat, dash back = bate, wd forward = threat, rising fair = space control, threat, and so on and so forth, building those movements and meanings into different compound movements - is this the kind of work that you've been suggesting? Even if what I'm doing isn't quite right, I gotta say it's made a huge difference LOL, I see wayyy more openings in neutral than I did before, I'm observing my opponents and their reactions a lot better, and sometimes when I play, I'm able to come up with mixups and options and movements seemingly out of thin air. My hands just kinda...do it. I guess this is slipping into flow state?

Though the practice has already paid off in some respects, wavedashing and pontificating the ~deeper meanings~ is fun, but can honestly get somewhat monotonous after awhile. Is there a recommended amount of time or proportion of training that you've found to be efficient to develop these tools? Right now I can go about 30 minutes before checking out, but that mental stamina is something I definitely gotta work on.

 

[AirFair]

Once again, I see your movement clearly exerting pressure against your opponent as demonstrated here: https://youtu.be/jrRtAg3QOn8?t=1m5s

Here's one thing I noticed that this clip and the Hugs example have in common: they're in shield and cornered, leading me to believe that shielding is their "afraid" button making your movement pressure even more effective. I want to learn more about the psychology behind this. What exactly triggers their shield in the first place? With Hugs, I can understand more since he wanted to block side-B, but with $mike he seemed to do it moreso out of fear than anything when you're about to threaten a forward approach.

I remember Plup's perspective on Marth that Marth is scary and doesn't know what to do when Marth dash dances, but on the other side of the spectrum people like Faceroll absolutely don't care and somehow finds his grab to a devastating punish (as I've been on the butt end of it).

Do you think it's primarily because current Marths suck at mixing up their little movement to throw off their opponent's countermeasures? I've done some self-reflecting, and I admit that I'm one of those Marths that just "dash dance camps." I don't really observe my opponents' tendencies and habits and only look out for the whiff punish range. That's why Faceroll farms all of us Marth mains. PP, on the other hand, actually uses his dashes to indicate threats and mixes up each and individual dashes to punish the opponents' panic options or quirks.

I still have so much to learn under this department, so more guidance under this complex part of the game would be very much appreciated.

I think $mike is shielding because pp is running up to him as if he will dtilt him, and he had just landed from the nair that he was hit with, so that may add some kind of pressure for him. So there is definitely fear involved the way I see it. I watched the game up to that point to make sure there wasn't something else that he could be trying to defend against, but I could be missing something.

as far as the dashes go, you could maybe look at the discussion of deliberate action sequences going on in here and try practicing those, since that is meant to cut down on some of the less mindful parts of marth's movement and focus on the precision that he can use his threats with.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Once again, I see your movement clearly exerting pressure against your opponent as demonstrated here: https://youtu.be/jrRtAg3QOn8?t=1m5s

Here's one thing I noticed that this clip and the Hugs example have in common: they're in shield and cornered, leading me to believe that shielding is their "afraid" button making your movement pressure even more effective. I want to learn more about the psychology behind this. What exactly triggers their shield in the first place? With Hugs, I can understand more since he wanted to block side-B, but with $mike he seemed to do it moreso out of fear than anything when you're about to threaten a forward approach.

I remember Plup's perspective on Marth that Marth is scary and doesn't know what to do when Marth dash dances, but on the other side of the spectrum people like Faceroll absolutely don't care and somehow finds his grab to a devastating punish (as I've been on the butt end of it).

Do you think it's primarily because current Marths suck at mixing up their little movement to throw off their opponent's countermeasures? I've done some self-reflecting, and I admit that I'm one of those Marths that just "dash dance camps." I don't really observe my opponents' tendencies and habits and only look out for the whiff punish range. That's why Faceroll farms all of us Marth mains. PP, on the other hand, actually uses his dashes to indicate threats and mixes up each and individual dashes to punish the opponents' panic options or quirks.

I still have so much to learn under this department, so more guidance under this complex part of the game would be very much appreciated.

Keep the position in mind. They can't dash/WD/jump back so much in the corner and so shield is what you do if you expect an attack is coming, which relies on conditioning as well. Now, some people may pop this option more or earlier than they need to due to fear of not having options/control or fear of the character or lack of understanding of the position, and these things can lead to the differences in Faceroll that you describe.

Hey PP,

Thanks so much for giving everyone an update! It seems like you're doing a lot better and that's great news. Hopefully your progress keeps on that upward trend - from what I can gather this hasn't been an obstacle just in regards to smash but to your whole life, and going through that's gotta be rough. Props to you for never giving up dude.

I took your advice and spent some time just exploring Marth's options solo in 20xx and assigning different moves to broad categories. I.E. dash forward = threat, dash back = bate, wd forward = threat, rising fair = space control, threat, and so on and so forth, building those movements and meanings into different compound movements - is this the kind of work that you've been suggesting? Even if what I'm doing isn't quite right, I gotta say it's made a huge difference LOL, I see wayyy more openings in neutral than I did before, I'm observing my opponents and their reactions a lot better, and sometimes when I play, I'm able to come up with mixups and options and movements seemingly out of thin air. My hands just kinda...do it. I guess this is slipping into flow state?

Though the practice has already paid off in some respects, wavedashing and pontificating the ~deeper meanings~ is fun, but can honestly get somewhat monotonous after awhile. Is there a recommended amount of time or proportion of training that you've found to be efficient to develop these tools? Right now I can go about 30 minutes before checking out, but that mental stamina is something I definitely gotta work on.

Yeah I just got more confirmation today that I'm on the right track so no worries there =)

Just switch between tools if you notice yourself checking out and build your stamina up. The fact you're already seeing results is a good sign that should encourage you to do so!

 

[maclo4]

Wait what was the confirmation if you don't mind me asking?

 

[Kotastic]

Oh yeah I forgot to ask

https://youtu.be/jrRtAg3QOn8?t=2m56s

How do you feel about this FH fair? You probably meant to catch his jump, but it also naturally avoided the kick and I assume the raptor boost as well. Sometimes I get caught by raptor boost a decent amount when Falcon is cornered when I apply late fair pressure.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I meant to catch his limb, but if I was a little closer I'd have hit his shield too so I messed it up somewhat I think. And yeah rising SH Fair on cornered Falcon beats everything including the raptor boost if you space/time it right, but late Fair can get eaten up so it's not so useful in the matchup anyway.

 

[quixotic]

Hey pp, what do you think are the pros and cons of tight and loose dash dancing? Would you agree that tighter dash dances hold stage better? I'm not sure what the benefits of longer dash dances are besides hiding your position.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Tight dash dancing keeps your speed higher and helps make minute spacing adjustments. Loose ones let you cover more space at a slower rhythm and also are technically easier which helps you react to your opponent.

 

[maclo4]

https://www.reddit.com/r/StreetFigh...ze_and_no_go_back_in/?st=jbieby8b&sh=09c7e151

This post was really interesting to me. It's meant for street fighter but I think it could be cool to adapt the idea to melee. Basically it's a way of training where you start off by literally not attacking and trying to make the clock run out (in SF), then you gradually add in super safe punished and stuff but never combos just the first hits.

I was trying to do a similar thing on netplay where I would just only dd, shield/shieldgrab bad pressure, cc, and sometimes defensive options like fadeback nair or dtilting in place or wd back dtilt, but was wondering if anyone in this chat had ideas for how this could be applied to melee. Or just if anyone has tried this it'd be interesting to hear your thoughts on it

 

[HolidayMaker]

If you did that without telling me what you were working on first I would probably punch you tbh.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I've done particular training strategies like no-laser Falco or minimally moving Marth or no Dtilt Marth to learn the importance of these tools.

Also I'm out of here for a few days for the holidays. Take care all =)

 

[HolidayMaker]

Merry Christmas and happy holidays PP/everyone else! Looks like I have to go bother new people for a change

 

[Kotastic]

Idk when you're gonna read this PP, but just wanted to update ya that I'M PR'D #12 IN ORANGE COUNTY WOOOOOOOO.

Thank you for all the guidance and advice you've given me throughout the past months, and I will continue to work hard to break more boundaries throughout my journey of this game.

Oh, and Merry Early Christmas y'all.

 

[Kopaka]

Idk when you're gonna read this PP, but just wanted to update ya that I'M PR'D #12 IN ORANGE COUNTY WOOOOOOOO.

Thank you for all the guidance and advice you've given me throughout the past months, and I will continue to work hard to break more boundaries throughout my journey of this game.

Oh, and Merry Early Christmas y'all.

GRATS DUDE

 

[maclo4]

What do you guys think of late fair in the falco mu? I realized I've only been using early fair probably for obvious reasons, cause I'm trying to do it quick before a laser or something. But I was playing around trying to see where I could squeeze in late fairs today and was getting a lot of use out of it especially if the falco was in the corner or something where he cant react right away. If heis in a position where he can just dash back and laser it feels terrible tho

 

[Kotastic]

Well I find late fair's general uses are to apply safe shield pressure, generally something I automatically use if I don't feel like I'm directly threatened, and an excellent defensive zoning tool. With Falco's laser, the latter 2 points almost never applies because lasers threaten everywhere and trying to jump defensively is pointless (again lasers). It does have its uses in the corner pressure but that's about it imo

 

[irv05]

What do you guys think of late fair in the falco mu? I realized I've only been using early fair probably for obvious reasons, cause I'm trying to do it quick before a laser or something. But I was playing around trying to see where I could squeeze in late fairs today and was getting a lot of use out of it especially if the falco was in the corner or something where he cant react right away. If heis in a position where he can just dash back and laser it feels terrible tho

I looove using late fair in this match-up. Since falco is much slower than fox, I think you can get away with it much more. Falco v marth is very stage position heavy imo, so late fair is a super useful way to wall off against falco safely. If it's a trigger happy falco then it's probably not going to be usable in many situations, but it works well against DD heavy falcos, and it forces them to play the laser game more. If falco does laser you in the air before the fair, I've found that either fast falling after the laser hit -> jab is pretty useful, and I also sometimes try to land a fair after the laser hit before landing. It's just has a huge risk-reward imo, since you can get a ton out of a late fair.

 

[Dr Peepee]

What do you guys think of late fair in the falco mu? I realized I've only been using early fair probably for obvious reasons, cause I'm trying to do it quick before a laser or something. But I was playing around trying to see where I could squeeze in late fairs today and was getting a lot of use out of it especially if the falco was in the corner or something where he cant react right away. If heis in a position where he can just dash back and laser it feels terrible tho

I like it when I stop the laser game/have him cornered/have him in shield. Falco doesn't often let you get the late Fair out easily but when he does you get very strong control of him.

 

[Kotastic]

Hey PP, hope you had a good Christmas!

Back to more Marth questions, there are some positioning that I want to inquire more about in the Falco mu

https://youtu.be/RrDS0VtTPL0?t=15s - PPU seems to hold his platform game extremely well despite being cornered. With the way how he played it, I honestly can't see how Falco can make use of his center without making a risky read. When I'm on the platform, I've always had the notion that being on the platform is bad for Marth, but it doesn't seem so in this mu if I'm not just rushing down to the ground blindly and getting WP. Is this an advantageous position for Marth?

https://youtu.be/RrDS0VtTPL0?t=48s - how do you feel about this nair? It seems to me that West made a wrong play, but in what ways could Falco punish that in that position?

https://youtu.be/RrDS0VtTPL0?t=57s - How do you feel about run-up shield in general in this mu? In this instance, it seems like PPU did the anti-Westballz with shield --> approaching nair which stuffs out West's laser --> zoning bair which West seems to favor in general really. I feel like run-up shield, if done at a right distance, beats in-place lasers but loses hard to approaching lasers because of shine. As the game progressed, it seems like it became a mixup that shield would lose to aerials but run-up shield beats lasers in-place. A bonus for PPU is that if he got the PS, it generally worked out well for him.

https://youtu.be/RrDS0VtTPL0?t=1m36s - I've seen Shiz time to time get an laser when the Marth is airborne to an f-smash, but when West tries it, PPU fairs out of it. Are there ever scenarios where laser f-smash is

Now I am no Falco connoisseur, so naturally there's probably some things I'm missing with Falco's tools I'm not as aware of. Appreciate the input!

 

[Dr Peepee]

Thanks, and I hope you did too!

15s: I actually experimented with this as Marth and it's not too bad. However since PPU did the waveland fake he did make it easier for Falco to get under him directly with Uair, which would be a pretty bad position then probably(or a trade situation at best). Normally Falco can space Bair on anyone trying to do this shield game, but Marth can Fair it. Falco might be able to late Bair it, and he also has some shine land stuff that I've wanted to mess around with. Either way, if Falco did nothing crazy and just stuck around the area outside of where Marth could Fair and set up to Bair Marth moving forward on the platform or lasering Marth's landing, it wouldn't be especially easy for Marth to push forward. Admittedly, I don't have all of this stuff fully fleshed out but based on the looks of this particular situation I'm not sure the meta has done so either. So I guess a rule of thumb is play the position and don't worry about it so much against Falco.

48s: Wes let Marth get a mid/late Nair on his shield so he lost the position. PPU dashed away for some reason so Wes could have lasered OOS I guess, but overall you pretty much have to Dair vs buffer roll or FH or hold shield in that losing position. Wes SH'd through the platform and just landed in front of PPU which I think was his big mistake here and he should have dropped through with an attack, landed from SH and dashed back, or dropped through with a laser or some other good option.

57s: I really dislike it unless you want to PS. Marth's shield isn't great at covering his body or giving him options. I'd rather just take the laser. Wes did a Bair from super far away after lasering and it wouldn't even beat WD OOS at him so he just picked another bad option and lost imo.

1:36: Wes could have done a laser lower or acted sooner to maybe get an Fsmash out, but generally laser to Fsmash isn't legit barring certain circumstances. Shiz/I prefer to get laser Fsmash when the opponent is trying to drift away after laser and we will walk forward a little first to catch their drift away to avoid punishment. Up close like this you can get laser Ftilt at most, maybe laser (dash) upsmash.

 

[ElectricBlade]

So I'm not here with a Marth question but a mentality question, as per usual for me really. I'll try to keep it quick.

My mentality is quickly spiraling out of control. I find I'm getting frustrated at both myself and the game extremely quickly. I get frustrated when I mess up at things I feel like I know I should be getting (like reading a certain action, going for the counter-option but getting hit by it anyway, constantly getting overwhelmed by the same option because I'm not aware of the counterplay, etc).

I get really upset and I can't focus or regain composure. Even if it's a friendlies session I just keep going until I can somehow snag a game. I know this is absolutely awful, I think things that I know to be not true (Mainly about how terrible I am or how annoying x strategy is or how powerful x tool is). It's all scrub mentality and it's taking me over. I don't want to feel this way.

Common advice I see for this is that you should just step away from the game but I feel like that is avoiding the issue, it will come back eventually. I need to be able to regain my composure, control my inner thoughts and keep my focus. I am incapable of these at the moment and I really miss the feeling of playing while content.

So I'm coming to you for advice. How do I stop doing this? It even seeps into my real life for unrelated things, I'm more irritable and I'm unsure how to fix this.

 

[Kotastic]

I'm not PP, but I do have some experience relating for this kind of thing.

In the moment, some quick fixes can be simply pausing a moment and think. Perhaps counting to 10, taking a short walk, or taking deep breaths would work best for you. Think of something that will put you in a state of relaxation.

When you get into a state of relaxation, you shouldn't give yourself such a hard time. We are all human beings after all, prone to make mistakes. We are also learning creatures as well, and there's nothing wrong with being a slow learner. You may not be progressing as fast as you'd like, but so as long you can identify at least one thing you've learned (if you're putting in adequate amount of work into the game that is), you are at least moving forward.

Things to look out for are your physiological states. Is your heart beating faster? Tense body? Clenched jaws? Whatever the physiological trigger is, it is of your best interest to look out for it. Once you recognize your tense state, that's your cue to know in advance to put yourself in relaxation.

Now you did identify your trigger state, which is your frustration in not doing things you feel like you should be catching. I've stated some ways to cope with it in my relaxation excerpt, and you would want to exercise dealing with such emotion in advance so you're prepared to combat getting frustrated. I offered my 2 cents in dealing with your frustration which is that we're all human, so think about that advice now and keep it in the back of your mind until the trigger pops up so you can deal with it better.

Additionally, your cognitive thinking pattern may be obstructive. You may think, "I always miss this option" or "I never get this." Thinking in absolutes makes you feel worse especially when you associate it with a negative connotation, which is usually not the case since the world is rarely just always or never. You may see dividends for replacing absolutes with softer terms such as "I sometimes miss this option" or "I sometimes don't get this," or even replace it with a positive mentality like "I sometimes miss this option, so I'll eventually get it next time" or "I sometimes don't get this, but I'll work my way into achieving this eventually."

Just advice I've given to some friends of mine irl.

 

[Aksorz1336]

So fairly recently, M2K did a video explaining that he picked up Sheik for consistency. (The video is about how he wish he had picked up Puff instead but that's besides the point.) That makes me wonder why he finds Marth inconsistent. M2K really loves his Sheik for some matchups, but would he be as succesful if he just stuck to Marth and grinded out the "tougher" matchups? It feels like right now he uses Marth exclusively for spacies and Peach (maybe the ditto?). The Number 1 advice for newer players looking to improve fast is to stick to one character, so how come M2K felt the need to develop a secondary for "consistency"? (I might have the history of this wrong, since he's a tri-main, Fox originally.)

I think we all in here can agree that Marth is a pretty cool character, but to me he feels fairly underrepresented among top players in relation to being arguably 2nd (or even 1st? :o) on the tier list? Is he that hard to be efficient with in practice?

I can't help but to, as a new-ish player, feel daunted by his complexity, but it's super rewarding to feel improvement in Marth, so I don't want to give up on him. (Maybe I just suck though, that's always a possibility, hah!)

 

[HolidayMaker]

This is perhaps too broad a question, but can you share some general gameplan advice against a Sheik that is FH needle heavy?

I have more trouble dealing with this than I should. I know batting them out of the sky with fair is generally recommended but sometimes that isn't always an option.

 

[Dr Peepee]

So I'm not here with a Marth question but a mentality question, as per usual for me really. I'll try to keep it quick.

My mentality is quickly spiraling out of control. I find I'm getting frustrated at both myself and the game extremely quickly. I get frustrated when I mess up at things I feel like I know I should be getting (like reading a certain action, going for the counter-option but getting hit by it anyway, constantly getting overwhelmed by the same option because I'm not aware of the counterplay, etc).

I get really upset and I can't focus or regain composure. Even if it's a friendlies session I just keep going until I can somehow snag a game. I know this is absolutely awful, I think things that I know to be not true (Mainly about how terrible I am or how annoying x strategy is or how powerful x tool is). It's all scrub mentality and it's taking me over. I don't want to feel this way.

Common advice I see for this is that you should just step away from the game but I feel like that is avoiding the issue, it will come back eventually. I need to be able to regain my composure, control my inner thoughts and keep my focus. I am incapable of these at the moment and I really miss the feeling of playing while content.

So I'm coming to you for advice. How do I stop doing this? It even seeps into my real life for unrelated things, I'm more irritable and I'm unsure how to fix this.

In addition to what Kotastic said, you need to build healthy habits outside of the game to help you catch yourself. Meditation is a really good one, because during meditation you can visualize the situation that makes you mad and ask yourself why this is the case, and then come up with how you want to respond to these things instead. Often we get mad and tell ourselves this "shouldn't" happen and if we go deeper we may find we don't want to deal with failure or defeat. Of course, these desires often lead to our defeat repeatedly, so they are good to encounter. Your story may be somewhat different, but I think we can agree there is a reasonable, but not healthy, root of these thoughts and feelings =p

Sentence completions can be useful as well. Write this down ideally, but thinking it works too. Just answer, don't plan your answers.

When I get mad, I think- (6-8 completions)

If I want to change my thinking, I will- (6-8 completions)

My ideal self would- (6-10 completions)

So fairly recently, M2K did a video explaining that he picked up Sheik for consistency. (The video is about how he wish he had picked up Puff instead but that's besides the point.) That makes me wonder why he finds Marth inconsistent. M2K really loves his Sheik for some matchups, but would he be as succesful if he just stuck to Marth and grinded out the "tougher" matchups? It feels like right now he uses Marth exclusively for spacies and Peach (maybe the ditto?). The Number 1 advice for newer players looking to improve fast is to stick to one character, so how come M2K felt the need to develop a secondary for "consistency"? (I might have the history of this wrong, since he's a tri-main, Fox originally.)

I think we all in here can agree that Marth is a pretty cool character, but to me he feels fairly underrepresented among top players in relation to being arguably 2nd (or even 1st? :o) on the tier list? Is he that hard to be efficient with in practice?

I can't help but to, as a new-ish player, feel daunted by his complexity, but it's super rewarding to feel improvement in Marth, so I don't want to give up on him. (Maybe I just suck though, that's always a possibility, hah!)

He picked up Sheik because of KDJ <.<
He still plays Sheik for consistency though, and he always had a Puff too(remember the Pound 3 Puff ditto with Mango?)

Guh I really don't wanna get started on M2K but I agree that he'd be better off long-term learning Marth for at least most matchups if not all of them. Your concern is very valid.

This is perhaps too broad a question, but can you share some general gameplan advice against a Sheik that is FH needle heavy?

I have more trouble dealing with this than I should. I know batting them out of the sky with fair is generally recommended but sometimes that isn't always an option.

Depends on how many needles they have, but if you react late to them FH'ing them just move away from the needles and let the situation reset.

 

[HolidayMaker]

Do you think it's worth challenging a full charge of needles in that situation?

Also, do you think ledge cancel dair->ledgegrab is worth investing time into? The MDVA Marths do it but they do a lot of superflous (yet cool!) stuff. Particularly against Sheik and maybe the ditto/Falcon.

 

[Dr Peepee]

IIRC if you react quickly you can Fair through needles higher in Sheik's jump and hit her but the full stack is the hardest to deal with so avoiding it is fine. You can always test it if you want.

I have been off and on with the idea of Dair to edgegrab vs Sheik or Falco especially but I can't say for sure if it's worth it or not. I don't like the way the MD/VA Marths usually use it but they set it up well sometimes so you can get a good idea of it if you watch lots of different times where they use it.

 

[Aksorz1336]

He still plays Sheik for consistency though

If we forget about M2K: What about Sheik is more consistent? Is it mainly more forgiving punish game (i.e ability to finish off stocks)?

 

[Dr Peepee]

She is technically easier. Less movement and more slow jumping and WD back can accomplish more. Also punish game, while harder for tech chasing(at least some debate about that but whatever) is more straightforward in many instances such as with gimps or edgeguards(edgehop bair) and winning neutral with Fair to end stocks and such(not to mention CG punishes on lower tiered characters and simple strategies working as strong/stronger than Marth's against them). This doesn't mean Sheik is all around easier, or for a given player she would be easier guaranteed, but for M2K it seems pretty obvious to me.