Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[ridemyboat]

Okay so first of all when I say top level I'm saying top 6/7, with qualifiers. Many people will say top 100 is top level or their local high PR'd player is top level but many of these players don't often practice or analyze or even play that much sometimes so that is not representative of a thoroughly prepared and understanding player to me.

I have noticed two very particular problems that get Marths blown up. There are others, but these two seem to be the worst:

1. Barely missing an opponent. Barely may mean in spacing terms, but often if you're drifting in this is a death sentence. Also, it usually leads to another problem, swinging a lot and getting into the heavy lag Marth has. So he pays a lot for being incorrect, or-

2. Inefficiencies kill him harder than other characters. If his punishes or kill setups are inefficient, he suffers way more than a Fox spamming usmash will eventually get lucky or a Sheik spamming Fair. As mentioned before, his lag hurts him a lot as well so if his movement is too excessive or he drops a combo he may end up close to an opponent in lag and off-balance which is very much the worst place to be for him. This happens a lot even in the case of someone like PPU, and it gets heavily exploited by Falcon and Sheik who can both prey on Marth's inefficiencies in various ways such as not getting edgeguarded well without a deeper flowchart.

Why do you think that Marths so often barely miss? I've watched you (Apex 2015) and M2K play, and it seems like even at the top level this is a serious issue.

I see it all the time in edgeguards with Sakurai combos when Marth's try to cover Side b (yes, even M2K), in tech chases when Marth's are a frame late and hit shield or are a frame early and get whiff punished from tech intangibility. At least in neutral you can say something like oh well they moved back slightly to bait the fair and the Marth got outplayed, but I see this all the time in punish situations.

This game makes it damn near impossible to do the same thing twice. SDI + ASDI + DI and platforms, on different stages. How you were positioned when you got the hit, and how fast you were moving when you got it, and how close you were to the ground. Crouch cancel, ASDI down and how they DI'd when they ASDI'd down.

I practice in parts to not get overwhelmed with the complexity in this game, but I really don't see it as achievable to eliminate these problems even at the top. It feels more like losing to the game than losing to an opponent when you're just slightly off, and as you mentioned Marths really suffer for it. Is there some way to even make this stuff fun when you slightly miss? Oh my god, it's so frustrating.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Why do you think that Marths so often barely miss? I've watched you (Apex 2015) and M2K play, and it seems like even at the top level this is a serious issue.

I see it all the time in edgeguards with Sakurai combos when Marth's try to cover Side b (yes, even M2K), in tech chases when Marth's are a frame late and hit shield or are a frame early and get whiff punished from tech intangibility. At least in neutral you can say something like oh well they moved back slightly to bait the fair and the Marth got outplayed, but I see this all the time in punish situations.

This game makes it damn near impossible to do the same thing twice. SDI + ASDI + DI and platforms, on different stages. How you were positioned when you got the hit, and how fast you were moving when you got it, and how close you were to the ground. Crouch cancel, ASDI down and how they DI'd when they ASDI'd down.

I practice in parts to not get overwhelmed with the complexity in this game, but I really don't see it as achievable to eliminate these problems even at the top. It feels more like losing to the game than losing to an opponent when you're just slightly off, and as you mentioned Marths really suffer for it. Is there some way to even make this stuff fun when you slightly miss? Oh my god, it's so frustrating.

That makes sense about me at Apex, since I wasn't actually very satisfied with my play there. And yes at top level it's still an issue, but one that is mitigated more through understanding. So we may whiff in more useful ways if we do whiff while trying to hit, or disguise attempts to hit with farther spaced aerials to throw off the opponents' visual cues, etc. Even in punish we may go for more reads with better reward than trying to cover everything(M2K sourspot Utilt around 30% in CG which doesn't allow for regrab for example). And if we recognize we are missing more stuff, generally we stop trying to force the issue and go for easier stuff that rewards better, which other players often don't do.


I wish I could speak more to the SDI stuff, but in my experience this stuff is better off worked out in specifics. To me the pattern seems to come together where you can find usually the same sort of thing happening a lot with minor but categorically similar new situations that can be easy enough to respond to if you're focused. I guess what I'm saying is I feel it's okay to not have 100% knowledge of every situation or to always 0-death since Melee is so difficult and complicated.

Anyway sorry you're frustrated but I hope you keep working at it, since it will feel a lot better once you get those really difficult things down and you can be glad you overcame these things.

 

[ridemyboat]

That makes sense about me at Apex, since I wasn't actually very satisfied with my play there. And yes at top level it's still an issue, but one that is mitigated more through understanding. So we may whiff in more useful ways if we do whiff while trying to hit, or disguise attempts to hit with farther spaced aerials to throw off the opponents' visual cues, etc. Even in punish we may go for more reads with better reward than trying to cover everything(M2K sourspot Utilt around 30% in CG which doesn't allow for regrab for example). And if we recognize we are missing more stuff, generally we stop trying to force the issue and go for easier stuff that rewards better, which other players often don't do.


I wish I could speak more to the SDI stuff, but in my experience this stuff is better off worked out in specifics. To me the pattern seems to come together where you can find usually the same sort of thing happening a lot with minor but categorically similar new situations that can be easy enough to respond to if you're focused. I guess what I'm saying is I feel it's okay to not have 100% knowledge of every situation or to always 0-death since Melee is so difficult and complicated.

Anyway sorry you're frustrated but I hope you keep working at it, since it will feel a lot better once you get those really difficult things down and you can be glad you overcame these things.

Thanks, I really appreciate the response. I see the problem as something that gets worse the better you get. Missing slightly is worse the more slightly you miss and the higher up you go the less likely you are to have your stock after you get punished for slightly missing. Disguising attempts to hit seems promising to make it harder for them to react when this stuff comes up. I guess I feel discouraged because I see this problem everywhere affecting players way better than me, and I think I've decided that the technical challenges that affect melee and its players are too big of a barrier for me.

Examples are obviously not needed but game 2 of Mew2King vs Sfat at TBH6 is "Barely Missing: The Tragedy" with commentary about everything but barely missing. https://youtu.be/pXNvhRft3bU?t=3m30s

Then also every last stock ever that ends with a sakurai combo.

Barely missing aside, I thought that Armada's analysis of Shroomed vs Lucky was pretty interesting. https://youtu.be/QUzQgXw31R4?t=6m35s

Slide off honestly looks ridiculous, and Armada mentioned he could react to wavedash fsmash with the survival di reliably. I wondered what you thought about how Marth should structure punish game when fox is somewhat cornered, but fthrow doesn't send them off the stage. It looks to me as though Fox should mix up tech in place and tech roll in when they're about cornered, because tech in place into asdi down means they'll grab ledge after dtilt and get a reset with intangible ledgedash, and then tech roll in puts them in an advantaged state when Marth barely misses.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Well I guess all I can say is I hope to prove it's possible to avoid being punished in that way in time =p

I don't understand your last question. The YT link is just Armada talking and no corresponding situation? If you throw and they tech near a corner and you don't want to Dtilt because they'll hold down onstage then just Fsmash or Dair them or regrab and mix Uthrow/Fthrow. If you throw them onto a platform at too low of a percent then they can get out, especially on DL. If they don't react quickly enough you can Utilt or Fsmash(or more such as Uair) their tech in place/missed tech if they're off balance though which is still pretty good.

 

[Kotastic]

In instances where Falco is just top platform camping me and mixing up actually going down, what's the best course of action? This also applies to Fox when they're doing sort of the same thing with side platforms feinting a nair but then go to top platform

https://youtu.be/73Y9mZWu_VU?t=2m36s

 

[Dr Peepee]

Most Falcos do this, where they just jump back up or waveland. The easiest thing in my experience is to move to the side then prime for either grab/non-committal action if they come down vs FH/DJ Fair if they go up. The reward from both can be pretty good and nothing really catches you off guard unless Falco plays the position pretty well, which is really rare in my experience.

 

[Sylarius]

Happy New Year's PP

I recently have been trying to grab more in neutral and got bodied at a party tournament yesterday by two foxes I've never lost to in the past (was up something like 5-0 and 2-0 against them). I felt my grabs gave me nothing (often uthrow on platform -> useless followup) - next time I want to use dtilt more as a safer option with range, attack more with aerials (this especially after watching Azen vs Silent Wolf at Evo), and techchase under platforms instead of uthrowing at low %s and not being able to cover everything (except with uair, which gets cc'd).

If all of those seem reasonable, my question is: When do you use dtilt, and when do you use grab, when in place and when overshooting, against Fox? Sometimes dtilt can bait an aerial from them, or after getting dtilted in the corner you're in a good position, and I think I was thinking grab was better than it was and changed my playstyle in a bad way to compensate. Previously, I used dtilt as a safe poke or when trying to corner them, and grab when I was more sure they were going to dash towards me, or when regaining stage (or aerial).

Maybe TMI but hope it makes sense. PP Marth is still my favourite Marth. Kreygasm

Correct me if mistaken but did you mention potentially being interested in coaching recently? Do you have any plans for that at some point in the future?

Thanks

 

[Dr Peepee]

For grabs to be useful you may need to learn percents/position info. So on Dreamland around 10% your Uthrow is very unlikely to give you a good followup, and if you're in a position where your Dthrow/Fthrow can be easily edgecanceled you'd need to either throw quickly up or to the side to avoid good reactions, or avoid grabbing them at all there, or play for an outplay instead of a true punish(waveland grab after uthrow despite them having time to get out for example). It's hard to give throw advice without specifics though. I'd recommend more Fthrow/Dthrow tech chasing if you're Uthrowing below ~20% before throw though(really depends on a lot but it's a quick rule of thumb). Mixing (WD) Utilt vs Fsmash is also useful if you're going to Uthrow.

I don't often overshoot either against Fox but if I do overshoot it'll be grab or Fair or Fsmash. Very very occasionally it'll be overshoot Dtilt, but since Fox is often jumping when I move in or just in general I don't need to Dtilt often. I prefer Dtilt in place a decent amount against Fox since Fox may try to overshoot against me or I may just hit him as he tries to come in with Dtilt/shine/grab. I may Dtilt directly or delayed after Fair/Nair in place or with drift, and sometimes after WD as a poke or a way to preserve space. I don't think you need to Dtilt them when they're cornered much ever since they really want to jump out to escape. Grab as well for that matter. Fair is very strong when they're cornered.

I haven't made any serious commitments to coaching at this time. Maybe I will later though.

 

[Kopaka]

hi smashboards marth thread happy new year peepee and everyone! I got ranked #12 in San Diego now and also congrats to quixotic for getting ranked here too! cant wait to play you again! I'm going to eventually catch up with the thread and ask a bunch of new questions!

 

[Kotastic]

Hey pp,

I've been doing some self-reflection about my mentality in terms of my will to win. It often gets in the way in extremely tight situations or when I'm on the verge of making an upset happen. It's that when i know my opponent won't take the loss well, i don't feel good about it. Sure i may have some adrenaline from my initial win, but almost always i feel the need to apologize afterwards. I often feel pity when i know my opponent hates the marth mu, and that feeling has costed me in multiple occasions thinking that way.

At the same time however, i am a competitor. I want to affirm my will to win. I just... don't want to struggle with these obstructive thoughts in the moment. It's not a huge issue per se, but it has costed me in multiple occasions. I also actually want to feel good about my wins even if my opponents don't take the loss well.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Well the easiest solution in my experience is just to get way better than the other person and beat them harder so they respect you no matter what you do lol. But more seriously, there are probably two ways to go about this. One is directly dealing with the logic of the opponent being sad or mad, and the other is to direct your focus more toward the game.

For the first, do you think they would improve their mentality if you just let them win all of the time? Even if it's still not likely if they lose, you don't help them at all with any temporary relief from pain. In fact, beating them is much more likely to get them to confront why they handle losing like they do and try to change. You could actually be hurting them by letting them win and not playing your best.

Now for focus. You must remember your goals and continue pushing toward them and build your desire up prior to every match. These things should never be allowed into your mind, and if they do ever come close you need in-game things to help or just say "they won't think about the loss that long" which is true in my experience. Many people get distracted by outside thoughts like these or what rank they will get or who is watching, etc instead of focusing on the match. Build strong pre-game rituals to immerse yourself more such as meditating or visualizing success or thinking more about the matchup or opponent, etc. As a competitor, there's no excuse for letting yourself get distracted.

 

[maclo4]

Is it just me or is being in shield against falcon especially bad? It doesn't seem like he has the greatest shield pressure compared to fox/falco but his aerials on shield seem superr safe. Like sometimes I can punish spacies for bad shield pressure but falcon has more range and/or shield stun (pretty sure) so I usually cant punish falcon with shield

 

[Pika-Bluu]

What would you say is the best way to handle Marth's neutral game against spacies, Pikachu, Falcon, other quick characters that can very easily get in Marth's face? Especially those with projectiles? Personally I have difficulty with this, and would like to know how you handle it. Thanks.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Is it just me or is being in shield against falcon especially bad? It doesn't seem like he has the greatest shield pressure compared to fox/falco but his aerials on shield seem superr safe. Like sometimes I can punish spacies for bad shield pressure but falcon has more range and/or shield stun (pretty sure) so I usually cant punish falcon with shield

If his aerials are spaced just shield DI away and WD OOS or get a read and aerial out lol not much else you can do. If he's closer sometimes you can CC grab OOS if he gentlemans but usually you're just taking the damage and letting the pressure finally go.

What would you say is the best way to handle Marth's neutral game against spacies, Pikachu, Falcon, other quick characters that can very easily get in Marth's face? Especially those with projectiles? Personally I have difficulty with this, and would like to know how you handle it. Thanks.

Don't use excessive movement, don't swing excessively, make them fear your range, don't jump forward unless you're close to them, WD Dtilt is a good way to make them fear your dash in in many matchups, work your CC grab/Fsmash/etc to slow them down along with aerials/Dtilt in place or dash in grab to intercept in the case of Fox/Pika.

 

[HolidayMaker]

Questionably broad one here, but how do you think neutral should be played against Luigi? I can do all right in the MU just based on sharking/edgeguarding, which I understand reasonably well, but I really don't know how to approach reliably winning neutral. His WD is so fast and he actually has solid grounded hitboxes that are safe enough on shield that I feel like neutral is hard to keep from being one big guessing game based around reading when he'll WD/what he'll do out of it.

In the past I've tried to treat him like ICs but he just isn't bad enough (lol) to invalidate and force into the corner like they are.

 

[Dr Peepee]

So you want to abuse his WD lag as much as you can. If he WD attacks it'll be jab or Ftilt or Dsmash, and two of those moves you can CC grab or Dtilt. Dtilt is something you want to use against him a lot anyway since he is stuck to the ground and you can hit his WD startup with it and he can't really jump over it or punish it at all. Fair can be good too if you drift into his WD lag zone or just outside of his Ftilt/Dsmash zone. You don't need to DD much at all against him since he's not a great character and can be outranged just fine. Also, don't go for grabs since spacing on him beats him hard and you can't get great grab followups anyway.

 

[HolidayMaker]

That is helpful, I was already primarily using dtilts/aerials but I've also figured out a more specific question to ask:

Most Luigis default to heavy use of WD Dsmash on approach, particularly at low percents since it's generally unsafe to CC. My answer to beat this is usually jumping with Fair/nair, but good Luigis can catch Marth's SH with WD ftilt or Usmash. How do I prevent playing around HIS mixup?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Stay far away so you can react to his WD Dsmash. As you come in, jump and drift in from farther away to Fair any attempt by Luigi to WD at you. You can also dash and Fair in place to cut off a little space. Really it's a lot about getting close enough to Dtilt his WD lag before Ftilt/Dsmash comes out, so you just need to either be in the far away space or the somewhat close space to be in good position. It's not hard to get in either since you have much better mobility and safer tools. I don't really know how to make it more specific off the top of my head but if you want to link a video example or two I can talk about that.

 

[HolidayMaker]

I apologize for being obtuse, understanding Luigi's weird threat range actually sounds like a concept I should take to heart and figure out. I might find a video later to show but for now you've given me something very helpful to work on. Thank you!

 

[maclo4]

So you're saying you/the average person should be able to react to wavedash before the luigi/whatever character can put out their move? I kinda believe you but that seems like a tough reaction. Would a similar concept apply to samus too?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I don't think this is so easy to do against Samus because she has DA and her Ftilt/Dsmash also cover more range so it's not as easy as just priming yourself for one forward movement option. It's still possible but takes a bit more movement and Fair zoning I think. I still need to fully work it out for Samus.

 

[AirFair]

I've been looking closely at all of marth's tools for awhile now, and have been practicing deliberate actions, and I wanted to look more deeply into how they are put together so that they work well together.

Understanding what each of marth's individual tools can do is one thing, but there's so much depth that each dash can have that sometimes when I'm looking at dashes that you do, I'm not entirely sure what the purpose could be. Like a dash back could be to encourage the opponent to come forward, or to shift your space backward. Sometimes I feel like a dash could have one purpose, but an unintended effect (which is why adjusting is important I realize). Generally though, I still have my own ideas about them.

One idea I have about these things is that initially the string of actions is meant to be very simple, like a short dash forward, a short dash back, and then a running dtilt slightly shifting your space towards and away from your opponent's TR, and the running dtilt pokes them for being defensive. Within this string you could cut the run early to grab/fair them if you see that they decide to come in during the first two dashes. As you adjust the string, the dashes can now be used with different purposes in mind.

Basically my questions are how can I look at dashes you do and get a better idea for their purpose? and are these purposes adjusted with the changes in dashes?

 

[maclo4]

So you're asking how can you get a better idea for what different possible purposes the same dash sequences can have?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I've been looking closely at all of marth's tools for awhile now, and have been practicing deliberate actions, and I wanted to look more deeply into how they are put together so that they work well together.

Understanding what each of marth's individual tools can do is one thing, but there's so much depth that each dash can have that sometimes when I'm looking at dashes that you do, I'm not entirely sure what the purpose could be. Like a dash back could be to encourage the opponent to come forward, or to shift your space backward. Sometimes I feel like a dash could have one purpose, but an unintended effect (which is why adjusting is important I realize). Generally though, I still have my own ideas about them.

One idea I have about these things is that initially the string of actions is meant to be very simple, like a short dash forward, a short dash back, and then a running dtilt slightly shifting your space towards and away from your opponent's TR, and the running dtilt pokes them for being defensive. Within this string you could cut the run early to grab/fair them if you see that they decide to come in during the first two dashes. As you adjust the string, the dashes can now be used with different purposes in mind.

Basically my questions are how can I look at dashes you do and get a better idea for their purpose? and are these purposes adjusted with the changes in dashes?

Usually I build adjustments into dashes yes, but often it will be more during long dashes. This is why I may spend more time stalling out with a dash forward as it ensures a response and I get to react for example. However if it's a movement I've practiced more then I can react during short dashes too. It's just important to remember that shorter movement means less time to respond on both ends, but that doesn't mean you won't get a response. It could just be that they are responding as you go into your next action or so which can be pretty strong.

I don't really know how to simplify this easily or if there is a good way. I'd rather start with a 2 action set instead of a 3 action set though to reduce complexity. A quick dash back into run in Dtilt means you give up space and quickly change tempo twice into attacking. Often your opponent will be primed to respond since you moved quickly, but they may be conditioned to think about coming in/away depending on spacing and other current circumstances. You will also get to interrupt the dash/run in before Dtilt as they respond to the dash back or dash/run in and if you've established this threat already then you get that information to abuse as well. You may just need to long dash forward and do nothing and let them hang themselves due to your threat in that case. So it really depends.

 

[Sylarius]

PP, What should be your goal when Fox (or anyone, assuming they can shield drop) is on a platform? Like here: https://youtu.be/4CsVhJZb95s?t=117

Often I see you dash dance far away and occasionally go under and come back with a nair (and rarely just nair towards the edge of the stage rather then towards the centre with nair). I get that this is safer than potentially cornering yourself/putting yourself offstage if they shield drop hit you towards the edge. Is there something specific with your timing and dash dancing you are aiming for?

Previously, you also mentioned properly threatening grab and fair, with dtilt for encouragement, here: https://smashboards.com/threads/car...t-the-tiara-guy.118998/page-463#post-21852010

How can I do this better? I am playing tomorrow and will try to come up with the situations where I should be using these, but I don't totally get how to "properly threaten grab" especially.

Edit: Also, may I ask why you don't counterpick Armada to FD with Marth? In the last sets with him I've seen, it's usually Pokemon Stadium either Falco-Fox or Marth-Fox. The only time I remember you playing him Marth-Fox on FD is in the Genesis Crew battle where you beat him. Just curious if you're comfortable sharing, since I know you've brought other Foxes like SFAT, Lucky, and Leffen there, and it seems like Armada uses platforms a lot when playing you in Marth-Fox.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Ah, the reason I moved away there is because I expected Armada to do his multi-step pattern he often does where he goes onto a platform and then immediately jumps off and attacks. I probably telegraphed it/he was aware that I'd do this so he just waited it out. I also would heavily advise against that Nair, it was a really dumb habit I had because I wasn't thinking well in those times. Nair is good if you think they'll drop down or go over you to avoid Fair. You should just focus on spacing Fair and Fox can't hit you there(though on say Yoshis or FoD you could probably still Nair and hit them sometimes).

You threaten grab by meeting them if they try to overshoot by moving forward mainly, but you could also occasionally run in hard with it if the Fox wants to shield your Fair or Dtilt. Fair you use to catch Fox jumping which he's often doing if he's ever kind of near you in the matchup. It also goes over his Shine/grab/Dtilt and if you don't lunge in a risky way with it you'll be safe on shield too(so just run up Fair in place, or slow drift in late Fair like Mango). Dtilt is to ensure Fox doesn't just laser and will continue jumping, which doesn't take much encouragement.

I didn't take Armada to FD because I knew my stupid eyes would just make me miss the CG lol. I tried to crutch on the PS side platform to give me frames to react to what he did. If I had been normal and healthy when playing him I'd have just taken him to FD because it's the best choice, especially against his platform-heavy playstyle as you mentioned. If you want to know why I took him to PS but not other Foxes, it's because Armada taxed my mental capacity the most in neutral before getting a grab which meant the CG would be even harder to transition to. Not to mention his better DI tricks and SDI, of course.

 

[AirFair]

So you're asking how can you get a better idea for what different possible purposes the same dash sequences can have?

My question was more like how I can be more sure of what the actual purpose of dashes are, when the possibilities are considered.

Usually I build adjustments into dashes yes, but often it will be more during long dashes. This is why I may spend more time stalling out with a dash forward as it ensures a response and I get to react for example. However if it's a movement I've practiced more then I can react during short dashes too. It's just important to remember that shorter movement means less time to respond on both ends, but that doesn't mean you won't get a response. It could just be that they are responding as you go into your next action or so which can be pretty strong.

I don't really know how to simplify this easily or if there is a good way. I'd rather start with a 2 action set instead of a 3 action set though to reduce complexity. A quick dash back into run in Dtilt means you give up space and quickly change tempo twice into attacking. Often your opponent will be primed to respond since you moved quickly, but they may be conditioned to think about coming in/away depending on spacing and other current circumstances. You will also get to interrupt the dash/run in before Dtilt as they respond to the dash back or dash/run in and if you've established this threat already then you get that information to abuse as well. You may just need to long dash forward and do nothing and let them hang themselves due to your threat in that case. So it really depends.

Ok, this is super interesting. I'll have to do some thinking about this for awhile lol. Will definitely keep in mind heading to practice.

 

[Kotastic]

Hey PP, what's up. Got some questions regarding commitments in neutral

https://youtu.be/IomXcdAAt7E?t=6m2s - Here, you got caught by Armada's FC aerials when you try to WD d-tilt. It didn't really look like Armada would change it up, so obviously aerials would be the simplest way to beat Armada's FCs. Me, I would just cut through with nair/fair, but I find it interesting that you soft commit with FH rising fair and falling fair from your FH. Could you explain your thought process behind that?

https://youtu.be/kREm4Bsw58M?t=10m6s - This is something I have been theorycrafting specifically for people that try to WD back WP me and don't like directly approaching. Back then, I would try to overshoot but I find that somewhat unreliable. The idea, which is displayed in the clip, is to WD in, indicating a swing and inviting a WP from the opponent, but then dash/WD back to WP their WP. How do you think about the idea?

 

[Acadus]

I've been having some difficulty with the Puff matchup lately, and there's three main ideas that I'd like you to weigh in on.

First, I've been experimenting with a more liberal use of both fsmash and ftilt in neutral against Puff. This acts like a callout on her bair walls, and forces her to respect your range off a good tipper. I feel that she often doesn't have the movement necessary to punish it. Do you think these bigger commitments in neutral are worth it?

Second, what do you think of counter in this matchup? I feel that it might be good as a recovery option to stop a wall of pain, and a way to call out bair and fair from ledge.

Third, how do you get your grabs in this matchup? I've learned to use the deep hitbox of dash grab to hit a crouching Puff, but I've found myself getting rested before the grab even comes out.

Thanks for your help.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey PP, what's up. Got some questions regarding commitments in neutral

https://youtu.be/IomXcdAAt7E?t=6m2s - Here, you got caught by Armada's FC aerials when you try to WD d-tilt. It didn't really look like Armada would change it up, so obviously aerials would be the simplest way to beat Armada's FCs. Me, I would just cut through with nair/fair, but I find it interesting that you soft commit with FH rising fair and falling fair from your FH. Could you explain your thought process behind that?

https://youtu.be/kREm4Bsw58M?t=10m6s - This is something I have been theorycrafting specifically for people that try to WD back WP me and don't like directly approaching. Back then, I would try to overshoot but I find that somewhat unreliable. The idea, which is displayed in the clip, is to WD in, indicating a swing and inviting a WP from the opponent, but then dash/WD back to WP their WP. How do you think about the idea?

Hard for me to tell based on this clip, but since I was farther away I was either trying to poke him moving away(since we started our actions closer together) or I just didn't figure he'd FC Bair twice in a row for some reason. From that starting position you could WD in Fair him probably though.
The FH rising Fair is kind of an M2K thing where I can get a big punish and be safe from dash attack or OOS stuff, and then Peach still struggles to get under Marth and his drift since she's slow so I can use that to my advantage as well. Marth FH is weirdly kind of useful in a couple matchups.

Yeah your idea about the WD fake is really good. I've gotten tons of mileage from it whenever I've used it since people are so conditioned by it. Makes your original WD Dtilt and eventually WD Fsmash stronger too.

I've been having some difficulty with the Puff matchup lately, and there's three main ideas that I'd like you to weigh in on.

First, I've been experimenting with a more liberal use of both fsmash and ftilt in neutral against Puff. This acts like a callout on her bair walls, and forces her to respect your range off a good tipper. I feel that she often doesn't have the movement necessary to punish it. Do you think these bigger commitments in neutral are worth it?

Second, what do you think of counter in this matchup? I feel that it might be good as a recovery option to stop a wall of pain, and a way to call out bair and fair from ledge.

Third, how do you get your grabs in this matchup? I've learned to use the deep hitbox of dash grab to hit a crouching Puff, but I've found myself getting rested before the grab even comes out.

Thanks for your help.

Fsmash and Ftilt are great vs Puff. Lower commitment as well vs her since she is so slow and has to worry about those moves beating her Bair so she has to drift farther away often.

From the edge it's kind of okay, but otherwise I don't think it's ever good.

Grabbing when you're pretty sure she's going to jump, using Dtilt to encourage her to jump as well as using a little bit of DD to change your timing up, and mixing in some shield pressure so she can't only expect grab when she's shielding are all ways to deepen your grab mixup. You can also pivot grab her SH Bair if she doesn't fully drift back after doing it, and you can pivot grab her Nair if she fades into you.

 

[quixotic]

hey pp, how can i punish knockdowns harder when my opponent continues to hold down? I've been doing some double jumps to bait out the getup attack but i don't really get anything if the opponent just holds down vs my fair/dair/nair.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Tipper Fsmash is always pretty good vs that in my experience =p

You can also Nair to tipper Fsmash which works at fairly low percents.

If they can't tech it then Dair is good, but otherwise you may want to reverse Utilt if those popup percents overlap with Dair knockdown percents(or you can just tipper Fair/Uair or something and then Fsmash if they land on their back again or tech in place, etc etc)

I'd need more circumstances such as specific percents or characters or stage positions to offer more than that right now but those are things that worked well for me in a variety of matchups.

 

[quixotic]

Tipper Fsmash is always pretty good vs that in my experience =p

You can also Nair to tipper Fsmash which works at fairly low percents.

If they can't tech it then Dair is good, but otherwise you may want to reverse Utilt if those popup percents overlap with Dair knockdown percents(or you can just tipper Fair/Uair or something and then Fsmash if they land on their back again or tech in place, etc etc)

I'd need more circumstances such as specific percents or characters or stage positions to offer more than that right now but those are things that worked well for me in a variety of matchups.

The situation I had in mind was that I would hit samus doing asdi down at about 30% with a nair in the middle of fd, which would knock her down. I feel like if I move back to space for tipper fsmash I might be giving up on covering roll into the corner.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I think you may be able to tipper her before she can roll if you back up a little early in some cases, but if not you could probably still WD/walk Fsmash the roll since I don't think it's very fast. Oh wait, if you're Nair'ing and knocking down, you might be able to Fsmash as Samus is sliding away like I do out of tech chases but you'd need to be pretty close to her when you hit Nair for that to work.

I would just tipper Fair if you don't feel like trying to do all of that since it's good damage and good punish no matter what they do afterward. Continuing to hold down gets them Fsmashed or Dtilted or mixed up again depending on what you think is best.

 

[Sylarius]

Is there a reason to not crouch there? Samus getup attack isn't very good so if you crouch you can almost always punish that with dash grab. Unless you don't have time to crouch, I'm not sure specifically if you'll get knocked down if you're ASDI-ing (in my experience I usually am but I don't know for Samus).

PP, do you have any recommendations for Marth videos vs aggressive Foxes? I've watched pretty much all of your marth fox sets in existence but a lot of them are more patient Foxes (Leffen, Armada, SFAT). One I go back to often when trying to learn how to deal with aggressive fox is PewPewU vs Silent Wolf at TBH, but even then that's not totally what I'm looking for and Mango usually plays Falco vs Marth now, and M2K sets often don't have as much neutral interaction as yours do. Maybe PPU Syrox?

That hopefully isn't a super ignorant paragraph. Slower characters in my experience are easier to handle. Fast Fox is scary and probably one of my weaker matchups, at least Fox in general. Thanks! ^^

 

[Dr Peepee]

I dislike crouch grab because it's taking unnecessary damage and sometimes your spacing and percent can affect how you'd like to punish. In this case it's even worse because grabbing Samus leads to pseudo punishes at best or just positioning advantage and small damage. Mixing stuff like tipper Fsmash with Dtilt ensures they can't just hold down on wakeup which is great to manipulate them beyond this situation, and it also just strengthens your damage you can do in the situation.

I played my best recorded Marth play against Mango at MLG on game 4 of our set. You can try that. Otherwise I'm not sure what to suggest.

 

[Blatant J]

To pressure opponents in the corner in shield should you mixup run-up grab with stuff like spaced fair/d-tilt? I feel like i don't achieve anything when I hit the opponent's shield.

 

[Kotastic]

So, I went to two locals this past week. The local that happened earlier, I was in a bad mood because I got upsetted early. For whatever reason, I gave myself a hard time because I did sooo many things wrong. Nevertheless, I still managed to press on into the losers bracket, beating people I'm expected to beat up until I ran into a Fox player I was expected to beat. It went to Game 3 on PS and was up 3 stocks to 1. The rock transformation came, and I was camping the top of the mountain. He somehow got a hit in, and I felt provoked to go in to even out the damage. That ended up being a big mistake, and I got my stock taken. I went in even though the rock transformation was still present and lost another of my stock, and then my last stock I played recklessly and impatient because I was so provoked from earlier. Of course, I lost and that just felt like a career low to me.

The later tournament I decided to redeem myself and went to Friday Night Turnip. I did decent and had a shot to beat a highly ranked SoCal PR'd player #12, Wieners. I did well and took Game 1 convincingly, and Game 2 I had him in the ropes. I had it, about to have my first true SoCal PR win. I had him in an easy edgeguard position where he had no DJ, and all I had to do was flick my C-stick to easily set up the Marth killer...except my finger somehow missed, and I threw away my game-winning edgeguard opportunity to a loss. Game 3, I had a solid footing but then at that point my hands weren't cooperating with me as I was starting to do up-smashes instead of up-tilts, JC grabs instead of fairs (I do aerials with Z), so I basically just threw that set away. I was very sad.

The two themes both locals had was me holding on to the past. If I wasn't thinking about that rock transformation incident and not get provoked, I probably would've won. If I took a second to recompose myself after my Game 2 loss vs. Wieners, I would've stood a better chance for Game 3. I think for the future, I have to incorporate this into my meditation to not hold on the past and take a moment between games to take deep breaths more often. Now you might think I have my mentality under control, and I thought so too, but this makes two tournaments in a row where this came to haunt me so I'm not sure if my solutions are right. Thoughts?

 

[Aksorz1336]

Hey PP.

I'm researching how to play better when having Falco on the ledge (mainly, but also Fox, I guess their ledge dashes are kinda similar?). Basically, I want to know how to position myself to cover as many options as possible.

Crouching pretty close to the ledge (about in the middle of side platform on BF) seems good to cover standup, roll up, double laser, noob side-b (should be reactable, right?), DJ to waveland on side platform, DJ to side-B edge cancel on platform, or Nair/Dair from ledge, but feels like it loses to ledge dash shine? Is it possible to react to the ledge dash and dashback pivot grab?

Perhaps I got it fundamentally wrong, any advice is as always super appreciated! Thanks.

 

[Dr Peepee]

So, I went to two locals this past week. The local that happened earlier, I was in a bad mood because I got upsetted early. For whatever reason, I gave myself a hard time because I did sooo many things wrong. Nevertheless, I still managed to press on into the losers bracket, beating people I'm expected to beat up until I ran into a Fox player I was expected to beat. It went to Game 3 on PS and was up 3 stocks to 1. The rock transformation came, and I was camping the top of the mountain. He somehow got a hit in, and I felt provoked to go in to even out the damage. That ended up being a big mistake, and I got my stock taken. I went in even though the rock transformation was still present and lost another of my stock, and then my last stock I played recklessly and impatient because I was so provoked from earlier. Of course, I lost and that just felt like a career low to me.

The later tournament I decided to redeem myself and went to Friday Night Turnip. I did decent and had a shot to beat a highly ranked SoCal PR'd player #12, Wieners. I did well and took Game 1 convincingly, and Game 2 I had him in the ropes. I had it, about to have my first true SoCal PR win. I had him in an easy edgeguard position where he had no DJ, and all I had to do was flick my C-stick to easily set up the Marth killer...except my finger somehow missed, and I threw away my game-winning edgeguard opportunity to a loss. Game 3, I had a solid footing but then at that point my hands weren't cooperating with me as I was starting to do up-smashes instead of up-tilts, JC grabs instead of fairs (I do aerials with Z), so I basically just threw that set away. I was very sad.

The two themes both locals had was me holding on to the past. If I wasn't thinking about that rock transformation incident and not get provoked, I probably would've won. If I took a second to recompose myself after my Game 2 loss vs. Wieners, I would've stood a better chance for Game 3. I think for the future, I have to incorporate this into my meditation to not hold on the past and take a moment between games to take deep breaths more often. Now you might think I have my mentality under control, and I thought so too, but this makes two tournaments in a row where this came to haunt me so I'm not sure if my solutions are right. Thoughts?

Yeah I'd say your assessment is pretty spot-on. I'd recommend not only meditating, but also imagining that situation again and thinking about what you specifically thought and felt and being honest about it. Then, imagine what the ideal thing to think is and begin substituting those new thoughts. If you train yourself mentally this way well enough long enough, then you will automatically think the new thoughts in similar situations.

Hey PP.

I'm researching how to play better when having Falco on the ledge (mainly, but also Fox, I guess their ledge dashes are kinda similar?). Basically, I want to know how to position myself to cover as many options as possible.

Crouching pretty close to the ledge (about in the middle of side platform on BF) seems good to cover standup, roll up, double laser, noob side-b (should be reactable, right?), DJ to waveland on side platform, DJ to side-B edge cancel on platform, or Nair/Dair from ledge, but feels like it loses to ledge dash shine? Is it possible to react to the ledge dash and dashback pivot grab?

Perhaps I got it fundamentally wrong, any advice is as always super appreciated! Thanks.

You can react to edgedash in many scenarios so this is fairly possible. Standing pretty close to the edge is great vs Falco and not so great vs Fox(though can still work with a certain strategy) since Falco's edgedash and edgedash options are worse than Fox's by a solid margin. So basically yes it's good.