Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Choice Mheat]

hey PP, you gave me some great advice on life and depression a couple years back. I hope you get well soon man.

I'm switching to Marth main from fox and falco. I see you're willing to give up a lot for the sake of getting center control. What do you think you utilize the center for that separates you from like The Moon? Why is it preferable to forgo a possible hit in favor of gaining stage?

Also I've gotten to the skill at which techchasing is becoming integral. My reaction techchase is pretty awful which is part of the reason why I want to leave fox. Any advice in that regard? how much of reaction is practice vs talent.

 

[irv05]

Hi PP, it's my first time asking a question here, I'm a long time lurker of this thread. For the past few months me and my brother have been grinding out the marth v falco match up. He's a falco main, I'm a marth main. Although we have gotten MUCH better at the match up, recently we have been noticing a pretty significant weakness falco has in the match up. He can't really do anything to marth's shield. As far as we understand, falco's options are either an immense amount of technical shield pressure to beat out the marth shield, or shine grab. The problem is that falco can't really follow up after a grab, and the only time we see that grabbing does something significant is when marth is at high % and falco fthrows off the stage. Since I've gotten pretty good at dealing with non-flawless shield pressure (roll, WD oos, shield grab, wait, etc), my brother has been having a difficult time getting a good opening on me. Do you have any advice to further help us with the understanding of the match up? Thanks, hope all is well

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Hi PP, it's my first time asking a question here, I'm a long time lurker of this thread. For the past few months me and my brother have been grinding out the marth v falco match up. He's a falco main, I'm a marth main. Although we have gotten MUCH better at the match up, recently we have been noticing a pretty significant weakness falco has in the match up. He can't really do anything to marth's shield. As far as we understand, falco's options are either an immense amount of technical shield pressure to beat out the marth shield, or shine grab. The problem is that falco can't really follow up after a grab, and the only time we see that grabbing does something significant is when marth is at high % and falco fthrows off the stage. Since I've gotten pretty good at dealing with non-flawless shield pressure (roll, WD oos, shield grab, wait, etc), my brother has been having a difficult time getting a good opening on me. Do you have any advice to further help us with the understanding of the match up? Thanks, hope all is well

Not PP but from my understanding the problem is addressing shielding primarily with shield pressure. They can't stay forever in shield, so instead of using attacks to beat it down, look at it from a perspective of covering their OoS options. Using an attack on their shield is intended to cover specific timings at which they could act OoS, while the alternatives are staying flexible (= not entering long animations like aerials) or, as you mentioned, the grab.
Here is an example for waiting for the OoS option (which works out fairly well although PP barely misses the grab), and an example of using an attack to beat the startup of an OoS option right after that.

About grab followups, up-throw->fair works at low %s, and often even if you don't have a followup getting them into the air can be good on its own.
This might be helpful, but there's more to it and I'm not knowledgeable enough to talk about the details.

 

[Dr Peepee]

hey PP, you gave me some great advice on life and depression a couple years back. I hope you get well soon man.

I'm switching to Marth main from fox and falco. I see you're willing to give up a lot for the sake of getting center control. What do you think you utilize the center for that separates you from like The Moon? Why is it preferable to forgo a possible hit in favor of gaining stage?

Also I've gotten to the skill at which techchasing is becoming integral. My reaction techchase is pretty awful which is part of the reason why I want to leave fox. Any advice in that regard? how much of reaction is practice vs talent.

It's sometimes better to not hit to gain stage. Really depends on the hit and how much stage and how good your next position is.

You can do more option coverage with Fsmash/aerials if you can't tech chase but it really is something you can learn if you break it down simply.

Hi PP, it's my first time asking a question here, I'm a long time lurker of this thread. For the past few months me and my brother have been grinding out the marth v falco match up. He's a falco main, I'm a marth main. Although we have gotten MUCH better at the match up, recently we have been noticing a pretty significant weakness falco has in the match up. He can't really do anything to marth's shield. As far as we understand, falco's options are either an immense amount of technical shield pressure to beat out the marth shield, or shine grab. The problem is that falco can't really follow up after a grab, and the only time we see that grabbing does something significant is when marth is at high % and falco fthrows off the stage. Since I've gotten pretty good at dealing with non-flawless shield pressure (roll, WD oos, shield grab, wait, etc), my brother has been having a difficult time getting a good opening on me. Do you have any advice to further help us with the understanding of the match up? Thanks, hope all is well

He can follow up after a grab either with Uair/Fair lower percents or Nair/Bair at higher percents usually. If there is a position where it doesn't look like Falco can followup then just let Marth jump. It's a very bad position for Marth and Falco can threaten Bair at this point and can get more damage that way.

 

[maclo4]

PP,
I am having trouble against this falco at my college who I play with often. Hes very aggressive and good at pressuring shield, so my question is where is a good distance to position myself against aggro falcos? and when is it good to use shield? because it feels pretty dangerous to shield when you know the other player is great at shield pressure

So I played him yesterday and I was playing some netplay vs a platinum falco today and I did much better once I started staying right around the range where i can sh fair him. Also, jab feels reallyy good to stop his approach between lasers, but I cant tell if there are guaranteed followups or if its more like a dtilt situation where you have to kinda think about what they might do after getting jabbed between lasers.

 

[ridemyboat]

Dr. PP, are you getting the B0XX?

More seriously, I looked into why I wasn't jumping more for SH fair against Peach. I hadn't invested enough learning into the percent game, and didn't know exactly when my aerials will knock her down, so I was left with some uncertainty as to when it's safe to use aerials. I still have a way to go, but it gives me a lot of direction for improvement. So, for now I'm experimenting with natural consequences of knowing the percents, such as for covering tech options and what to go for in neutral.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

What do you think about pivot nair? I thought about using it as alternative followup in platform techchases (pivot because the backward part reaches further up) but it has the same problem against ASDI as up-tilt/air, and above that these do fine...

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr. PP, are you getting the B0XX?

More seriously, I looked into why I wasn't jumping more for SH fair against Peach. I hadn't invested enough learning into the percent game, and didn't know exactly when my aerials will knock her down, so I was left with some uncertainty as to when it's safe to use aerials. I still have a way to go, but it gives me a lot of direction for improvement. So, for now I'm experimenting with natural consequences of knowing the percents, such as for covering tech options and what to go for in neutral.

Nope

What do you think about pivot nair? I thought about using it as alternative followup in platform techchases (pivot because the backward part reaches further up) but it has the same problem against ASDI as up-tilt/air, and above that these do fine...

That can be good on platform tech chases if you're close enough to hit with Fsmash or follow them afterward. I'm not sure you always need to pivot to do it though.

 

[CanBeatAnyFaux]

Hey guys, as you can probably tell from my tag I feel pretty confident in the spacie matchup, but a lot of the floaty players I know are getting better and I was wondering if you guys had any bread+butters/cheese vs Samus/Peach/Puff. I can win neutral but I have no clue how I should be punishing other than triple fair lmao

 

[maclo4]

Have you seen Kira's tier list video? What do you think about what he says about marth being the most overrated character? Heres the link tho if youre interested https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeF6kgGpU2s&t=0s

 

[AirFair]

Hey guys, as you can probably tell from my tag I feel pretty confident in the spacie matchup, but a lot of the floaty players I know are getting better and I was wondering if you guys had any bread+butters/cheese vs Samus/Peach/Puff. I can win neutral but I have no clue how I should be punishing other than triple fair lmao

I think you could do with controlling their options more, using grabs.

For Peach and Samus, this means that you can use fthrow to set up techchase situations/edeuguards depending on their DI. Even better than that on stages like FD or Stadium if you want is using uthrow to set up juggles, since getting down for them in that position isn't very fun when marth is right below them. On the other stages though, I will say that I prefer fthrow so that I don't have to worry about platforms interfering as much with juggles + you can control their options pretty well too out of it, since it either sets up combos or puts them in the corner and gives you a lot of positional advantage.

 

[strawhats]

hmm...well i haven't posted on the boards in a long time but I gotta know your opinion on Marth vs the Pikaxe MU @PPMD. Do you think it's as concrete as people say that Marth loses to pikachu at top level, or is Axe just more knowledgeable on the MU juxtaposed to guys like Jason, KToy, Moon, or yourself? (im not sure if you've labbed it)

It's just seems that rhetoric that i've heard from fellow marth mains has calcified into alot of minds that Marth can't beat pikachu/axe

Also your opinion on Marth vs Yoshi at top level if you've ever played it or viewed it to any capacity (vs. say aMSa)

Also I'm praying for your return dude...you breathe life into the scene at the top level. I feel like top 8 (besides Jason playing Marth and playing well, upsetting the apple-cart of Hbox vs Armada) has gotten stale at Nationals.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey guys, as you can probably tell from my tag I feel pretty confident in the spacie matchup, but a lot of the floaty players I know are getting better and I was wondering if you guys had any bread+butters/cheese vs Samus/Peach/Puff. I can win neutral but I have no clue how I should be punishing other than triple fair lmao

Anytime you can hit them with a Nair while they're airborne at lower percent then do it, and tipper Fair as well. Puff you can fake CG with Fthrow/Dthrow and also aerial/fsmash out of it. Peach you can tech chase at lower percents. Samus you can throw and then force her jump and hit her with Uair/fair.

hmm...well i haven't posted on the boards in a long time but I gotta know your opinion on Marth vs the Pikaxe MU @PPMD. Do you think it's as concrete as people say that Marth loses to pikachu at top level, or is Axe just more knowledgeable on the MU juxtaposed to guys like Jason, KToy, Moon, or yourself (im not sure if you've labbed it)

It's just seems that rhetoric that i've heard from fellow marth mains has calcified into some minds that Marth can't beat pikachu/axe

Hello again!

I have barely labbed the matchup but I believe, as Axe does, that Marth strongly wins the matchup. Jason could do alright vs Axe too I've seen him have advantage vs Axe in the matchup when they played a lot in AZ. Anyway, more CC, dash away shield grab the Nair behind attempt, Fair zoning at a farther range, and fully understood juggles are the weakest areas for Marths right now(besides edgeguarding but that one shouldn't be that hard if they just watched me vs Axe from summit).

Have you seen Kira's tier list video? What do you think about what he says about marth being the most overrated character? Heres the link tho if youre interested https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeF6kgGpU2s&t=0s

I don't agree. Marth can't be worse than 3rd imo. Kira is primarily talking about how people perceive Marth to be great but he doesn't have results, which is true. So does Falco at this point but no one calls him overrated. However just because it isn't happening in tourney doesn't mean it isn't possible to prove Marth's position eventually.

 

[strawhats]

lol...and here i thought Jason was just talking out of his ass, but he has said he does very well against axe's pikachu with marth. It still puzzles me as to why he doesn't just main marth lmfao. (I saw you on armada's stream being a bit glib/lowkey chiding him for not taking full advantage of the pivoting technology marth has against puff n peach)

Anyways yeah i completely forgot about your exhibition set against Axe at The Summit. You're edgeguarding in that first get was a thing of beauty.

 

[Taytertot]

Hey PP and others, recently ive been curious about smash (and other fighting game) concepts that people have found very insightful or inspiring for their gameplay?

Concepts that have made a difference for me have been understanding that the rock paper scissors or neutral isnt exactly attack>grab>shield>attack and instead its closer to advance>avoid>attack>advance which i found in while lurking the melee library. Another concept that has impacted me significantly is the theoretical influence that threat zones have on interactions due to human's having limited reaction time especially as a marth player. This has lead me to be curious about what other concepts i may not have discovered or simply concepts that i already know to some extent instinctively but may not have had written out in a manner that really proves/widens the depth of the idea which ends up creating a stronger understanding of the game as a whole after ive read.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Hey PP and others, recently ive been curious about smash (and other fighting game) concepts that people have found very insightful or inspiring for their gameplay?

Concepts that have made a difference for me have been understanding that the rock paper scissors or neutral isnt exactly attack>grab>shield>attack and instead its closer to advance>avoid>attack>advance which i found in while lurking the melee library. Another concept that has impacted me significantly is the theoretical influence that threat zones have on interactions due to human's having limited reaction time especially as a marth player. This has lead me to be curious about what other concepts i may not have discovered or simply concepts that i already know to some extent instinctively but may not have had written out in a manner that really proves/widens the depth of the idea which ends up creating a stronger understanding of the game as a whole after ive read.

Disclaimer: I don't consider myself actually good, so this is just from my limited perspective.

For me these concepts have been most influential, a lot of them have to do with understanding the effect of reaction times and/or mixups:

Threat zones and consequently the in/border/out-game, my biggest lesson there was how you should be uncommital in the out/border-game but have to be fierce and proactive in the in-game.

The game-theoretical perspective on mixups, what the correct ratios in mixups are if the risk-reward is skewed and how you have to use "primitive" options, about which I previously thought they would only bank on faulty gameplay by the opponent, from time to time to stop the opponent from greedy plays (often refered to as keeping them honest).

Don't have a name for this but how certain you can be of the position and animation of the opponent at a given time (maybe scattering because the locations you could be at are scattered over the stage from your opponent's view), how this conserves momentum and explains why there is often still an advantage after a hit even if there is no followup.

Strong and vulnerable windows, say you jump and aerial, then you have a vulnerable window on startup, a strong window during the hitbox and a vulnerable window from when the active frames end or you land until you are fully actionable again. I found this most applicable in understanding Jigglypuff, and often it reveals what specific attribute of a move makes it good in some situation.

Limitations of options, the idea is that certain counters not being available makes options stronger. Fox's dash sh nair is usually being countered by dash away (at least by fast characters), and is therefore seen much more frequently when the opponent is cornered compared to centerstage.

 

[capusa27]

Dr Peepee

A while back, I asked you about the Yoshi matchup. You said that you think that Marth wins, but you don't really know and are basing your conclusion on your observations with your brother. Do you remember what you tested in the matchup? What are some other insights into the matchup that you've discovered since I last asked you about it? Any recommendations for studying the matchup?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I tested options after throw, breaking DJ armor with shield breaker when Yoshi is recovering at higher percents, being able to space out Yoshi's aerials and also act as if you'd hit him to encourage the DJC and also position to space and hit if he doesn't, and probably other things I don't remember since it's been years. I haven't looked into it any more since I'm not actively practicing and there aren't ever any Yoshi Marth matches that are high level I can watch.

If you want to study it I honestly don't think there's even a good match on Youtube right now, but maybe some recent rudolph/amsa matches? Rudolph has a fairly effective way of fighting Yoshi iirc.

 

[Tee ay eye]

Axe and I both agree that Marth beats Pikachu, but like... with most Marth MUs vs mid tier characters, Marth is required to really abuse his advantages in neutral. Trying too hard to force certain exchanges = playing a game in which Marth is a bad character. However, in practice, it's extremely difficult to avoid those situations entirely and *only* play to your advantages, but... you gotta believe Pikachu probably has more tricks in neutral to throw Marth off-balance and probably wins the offstage punish game, though, which is more than we can say with a lot of other mid tiers.

Something people don't think about enough when considering Pikachu vs Marth is that.... a lot of it is just Axe vs Marth. That guy is one of the best players in the world at playing aggressive vs Marth, moving around him, punishing well, and not falling for Marth gimmicks with.... basically any character. He rotates on me with Falco, Fox, ICs, Pika, Falcon, Marth, and Young Link, goes ham with all of them, and they're all ****ing hard.

In addition to the things PP listed, I think it's very important for Marth to understand Pikachu's limited situations and abuse them in order to find high-EV gambles. So like... having a well-developed juggle game is good vs Pikachu, but you need to use it to put him in a limited situation where he is vulnerable to tipper. Being able to techchase vs him and abuse corner pressure him is really valuable, but again, I think you need to use it as a way of finding openings to fsmash him. It's not like spacies where you can combo into guaranteed kill setups/edgeguards or other characters where you can rinse/repeat edgeguards until they die.

Also, you need to walk up and teeter the edge in order to fsmash/dtilt his up B. You can't really punish his sweetspot, but you can hit him out of his upB before he snaps to ledge.

p.s. **** Yoshi

 

[capusa27]

Many people say that Marth struggles heavily with Yoshi and Pikachu. But over the years of viewing Melee, I think the community clearly has a false impression. Why do I see approximately 500 Fox players lose to Axe and Amsa pretty convincingly? I mean, Marth mains feel so sorry for Fox that most opt to play him, and the community is obviously embarrassed that characters ranked WAY below what Hax$ described as "the equivalent of South Park's most vile Imagination Land forest critter" consistently beat Fox.

So, after the long introduction, where do you Yoshi and Pikachu players could improve for Marth mains to stop looking at them like insignificant secondary counterpicks? Thoughts and critiques are welcome

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Many people say that Marth struggles heavily with Yoshi and Pikachu. But over the years of viewing Melee, I think the community clearly has a false impression. Why do I see approximately 500 Fox players lose to Axe and Amsa pretty convincingly? I mean, Marth mains feel so sorry for Fox that most opt to play him, and the community is obviously embarrassed that characters ranked WAY below what Hax$ described as "the equivalent of South Park's most vile Imagination Land forest critter" consistently beat Fox.

So, after the long introduction, where do you Yoshi and Pikachu players could improve for Marth mains to stop looking at them like insignificant secondary counterpicks? Thoughts and critiques are welcome

To me, Yoshi and Pikachu are bad characters, but Amsa and Axe just outplay their opponents consistently by a combination of more matchup experience, and in many cases, just being the better player in general. Many of their victims even know too little about the matchup to realize by how much they are getting outplayed. The best antidote for top tier mains underrating their character is to try out that matchup from the other side.

I don't think the community should be embarrassed by this. On the contrary, I think advantageous matchups not being auto-wins indicates how high the game's skill ceiling is, which is something the Melee community usually takes pride in.

 

[Zorcey]

Dr. Knuckles how do you recommend practicing platform movement/options? Right now when I find myself on a platform I just kind of shield drop aerial and I'm super underdeveloped. What kind of exercises or series of actions should I practice as a foundation?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey Knuckles & Knuckles,

You can run/WD off platform, or dash once or twice into shield drop, or dash one way WD other way, or even sh aerial or empty land on the platform(they can't really challenge the aerials if they're still in front of you).

 

[AirFair]

guys marth sux!!!!!1!

he takes 6 YEARS to swing his sword, and the hitboxes on them are TRASH bc they aren't constant

this guy gets jab usmashed daily and CAN"T KILL PEOPLE cause FSMASH IS TOO SLOW

top tier!???!??!?!?!?1111?? more like FLOP TIER

 

[Wall Of SPain]

Dr Peepee
Hello friend, I have a question regarding your neutral approach, I have watched (and analyzed some) sets of your marth. And in the neutral, I saw you were very aggressive, naired a lot and ddanced to change the distances and angles where you were coming from, now my question is, why is this the optimal neutral game? I might have it wrong and you dont do these things, but thats what my analyzing gave me. If so what is your neutral approach in most common mus, like spacies? I think this is the part where im most lacking as my punish and advantage game are pretty good for the level i have to play against, i just want to put myself in that position more often but before that i need to be sure my neutral is the most optimized, except for people who will do weird stuff, im fine with those you just have to observe and adapt.

 

[Blatant J]

Does the incorporation of shield drops make it so Marth is in a disadvantageous position when below a spacie that's on a platform?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee
Hello friend, I have a question regarding your neutral approach, I have watched (and analyzed some) sets of your marth. And in the neutral, I saw you were very aggressive, naired a lot and ddanced to change the distances and angles where you were coming from, now my question is, why is this the optimal neutral game? I might have it wrong and you dont do these things, but thats what my analyzing gave me. If so what is your neutral approach in most common mus, like spacies? I think this is the part where im most lacking as my punish and advantage game are pretty good for the level i have to play against, i just want to put myself in that position more often but before that i need to be sure my neutral is the most optimized, except for people who will do weird stuff, im fine with those you just have to observe and adapt.

If you want to be in winning positions, understand your options at every range. Learn how to use each tool in that range and combined with your other tools. When you know that you'll know how to threaten at different ranges, but I can't make it any more straightforward than that.

Does the incorporation of shield drops make it so Marth is in a disadvantageous position when below a spacie that's on a platform?

No but it does mean you have to play differently. If they're on a side platform you can just space Fair, and if they're on a top platform you can bait them to fall down and move away then grab/attack or rise and space Bair/Fair on them as well, or wait for them to fall then move I guess.

 

[Taytertot]

Dr Peepee
So i know youve talked about this a bit and im curious to delve into it further. youve said not to DD too wastefully and to keep DD's back and forth under a certain amount because the excess doesnt necessarily do anything for you or at least thats what ive picked up on (correct me if im wrong here). Im sure youve seen many mid and low level players overused DD and im curious what some of your answers are against excessive DD? by this im looking to understand what strategies you employ to prove the emptiness of threat or weakness they have in their DD so i can better employ it myself since im more or less at that level where theres seems to be excess DD in neutral. i still find it threatening because i still end up getting hit in neutral enough to feel as though they are being effective but i know that at the top level i dont generally see as much rest (i.e. passive-esque DD) in between interactions as i do at my level.
I do understand that if i feel my opponent is DDing too passively that i can challenge that with dash attack or something like wavedash in dtilt/grab and that if i feel my opponent isnt respecting my space enough with their DD then i can challenge with fair/dtilt etc., but i think im missing what makes the extra DD not only useless but less effective, other then the fact that they are maybe trying to mix up their approach/bait more then they need to. But this doesnt lead me to believing that the extra DD is somehow losing them advantages/opportunities it just seems like they are wasting more of the timer away. Maybe the decisions that create an opening for a player of your level is so much smaller that the extra DD somehow becomes more significant in letting go of opportunities? Maybe you notice smaller weaknesses in positioning then i do so you can take advantage of them putting themsleves out of position through overuse of DD even if the position isnt as obviously bad to mid and low level players? Maybe theres something else that i havent come to understand yet?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee
So i know youve talked about this a bit and im curious to delve into it further. youve said not to DD too wastefully and to keep DD's back and forth under a certain amount because the excess doesnt necessarily do anything for you or at least thats what ive picked up on (correct me if im wrong here). Im sure youve seen many mid and low level players overused DD and im curious what some of your answers are against excessive DD? by this im looking to understand what strategies you employ to prove the emptiness of threat or weakness they have in their DD so i can better employ it myself since im more or less at that level where theres seems to be excess DD in neutral. i still find it threatening because i still end up getting hit in neutral enough to feel as though they are being effective but i know that at the top level i dont generally see as much rest (i.e. passive-esque DD) in between interactions as i do at my level.
I do understand that if i feel my opponent is DDing too passively that i can challenge that with dash attack or something like wavedash in dtilt/grab and that if i feel my opponent isnt respecting my space enough with their DD then i can challenge with fair/dtilt etc., but i think im missing what makes the extra DD not only useless but less effective, other then the fact that they are maybe trying to mix up their approach/bait more then they need to. But this doesnt lead me to believing that the extra DD is somehow losing them advantages/opportunities it just seems like they are wasting more of the timer away. Maybe the decisions that create an opening for a player of your level is so much smaller that the extra DD somehow becomes more significant in letting go of opportunities? Maybe you notice smaller weaknesses in positioning then i do so you can take advantage of them putting themsleves out of position through overuse of DD even if the position isnt as obviously bad to mid and low level players? Maybe theres something else that i havent come to understand yet?

When they use the same pattern or they spend a long time in place you can guess they're waiting to knee jerk reaction to you coming in usually. So you can pretend to give them that. The main problem with overusing DD is you can't have threats on the individual dashes so much, especially if it's faster. This is because your brain has to focus on doing the inputs and can't be reacting. I guess if you practiced DD'ing fast and reacting intelligently out of it you could maybe minimize this risk but no one besides old cactus did that. Anyway, yeah there are plenty of tells for me personally, like if I move in a little but they don't really change what they're doing, or I wait 2-3 seconds and see if they will run in or zone out(typically people make decisions in that amount of time). There's always going to be more to it but a lot of it is internalized understanding of your threats and movement and that's something not easily explained.

 

[Taytertot]

When they use the same pattern or they spend a long time in place you can guess they're waiting to knee jerk reaction to you coming in usually. So you can pretend to give them that. The main problem with overusing DD is you can't have threats on the individual dashes so much, especially if it's faster. This is because your brain has to focus on doing the inputs and can't be reacting. I guess if you practiced DD'ing fast and reacting intelligently out of it you could maybe minimize this risk but no one besides old cactus did that. Anyway, yeah there are plenty of tells for me personally, like if I move in a little but they don't really change what they're doing, or I wait 2-3 seconds and see if they will run in or zone out(typically people make decisions in that amount of time). There's always going to be more to it but a lot of it is internalized understanding of your threats and movement and that's something not easily explained.

ah awesome thank you! that makes a lot more sense now. This gives me so much more to think about which i always appreciate about this thread.

By the way, i had a local recently and finally got over a lot of the nerve issues ive been having so i actually did quite well and took the top player here in my small scene to last stock last hit with his main. I feel that i have you and everyone else here to thank for that.

 

[ItsJusOwl]

Hi! Been a lurker for a while and would like to say that this forum has been the source of much of my successive improvement that has happened in the past few months! Thank you to all of you guys so much!

I know this has been answered in the past (or touched upon at least), but I'm still having issues with it honestly.

I've just received a ranking in my region that I don't feel I deserve. Because of this, competitors and friends alike are putting expectations on me that I feel are unreasonable and put pressure on me to achieve results that I feel I cannot do. Do you have any mental tips for focusing on simply enjoying the game and learning process, rather than results, though everyone subconsciously expects it of me?

TL;DR I want to learn, but others want me to win :|

 

[Taytertot]

Hi! Been a lurker for a while and would like to say that this forum has been the source of much of my successive improvement that has happened in the past few months! Thank you to all of you guys so much!

I know this has been answered in the past (or touched upon at least), but I'm still having issues with it honestly.

I've just received a ranking in my region that I don't feel I deserve. Because of this, competitors and friends alike are putting expectations on me that I feel are unreasonable and put pressure on me to achieve results that I feel I cannot do. Do you have any mental tips for focusing on simply enjoying the game and learning process, rather than results, though everyone subconsciously expects it of me?

TL;DR I want to learn, but others want me to win :|

well i guess the answer on how to manage that is going to differ from person to person, but ultimately you should be playing the game because you want to and therefore shouldnt feel confined to what people expect of you. But, i also dont want to suggest that you should feel you cant live up to high expectations because confidence plays an important factor in your success. That being said, your own expectations for how well you do is more important than anyone elses.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hi! Been a lurker for a while and would like to say that this forum has been the source of much of my successive improvement that has happened in the past few months! Thank you to all of you guys so much!

I know this has been answered in the past (or touched upon at least), but I'm still having issues with it honestly.

I've just received a ranking in my region that I don't feel I deserve. Because of this, competitors and friends alike are putting expectations on me that I feel are unreasonable and put pressure on me to achieve results that I feel I cannot do. Do you have any mental tips for focusing on simply enjoying the game and learning process, rather than results, though everyone subconsciously expects it of me?

TL;DR I want to learn, but others want me to win :|

What you feel is most important. Actually, before that, this is a really normal thing to happen to people. Success anxiety is very real. Examining the root thoughts that interactions with people leave with you are important. In my experience with most people it's usually something like "I'm not good enough to have all of this praise" and so you begin sabotaging yourself. This is hardly uncommon at the top level so don't be too hard on yourself about it. Anyway, you have to engage these things in your mind on your own time. Take an interaction that gave you anxiety and pressure and think about how you acted. Now think of what they said again, but this time respond how you think it's most healthy to respond. Continue to play it out in your head with this person and others daily. The more you commit to this the more it will eventually become habit as you begin to recognize when to respond as you want to when people talk to you in ways that can pressure you. Finally, after you do this well(assuming you don't sabotage yourself before that point), you might feel inclined to stop. You can slow down some if you want, but if you stop guarding your mind you'll become swayed by your surroundings easily again. It's about what you want to control in your life. Good luck!

 

[Aksorz1336]

Hi! I'm a beginner Melee player and have been playing for the last 4 months, with Marth as my main focus. I feel like I'm at the point where I have a decent understanding of the character and his toolkit and can somewhat consistently pull off the basic tech stuff (dd, wd, shffl, shdf, jc-grab, some ledge and oos options).

What I'm wondering is if you at some point after picking up Marth got an "aha!"-moment where you felt like implementing a certain mindset, technique, practice routine or what not helped you "unlock" Marth and really take him to the next level?

I have a strong desire to improve and could use any tip to up my game.

Cheers!

 

[Prepare_Yourself]

PP, when you watch current top level marth play from m2k, pewpewu and the moon, what do you notice them doing well that most people don't pick up on, and what do you notice them doing wrong that would also be easy to miss? You can answer this in terms of tech, mental game, playstyle, or even more generally, but I'm wondering what you'll want to bring to the table to change things up when your marth hits the scene again (without disclosing any trade secrets).

 

[ElectricBlade]

Hello PP! I have another question for you.

How do you properly flow from a more aggressive oriented gameplay to a more defensive oriented gameplay seamlessly during a match? How do I know when I should transition between the two?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hi! I'm a beginner Melee player and have been playing for the last 4 months, with Marth as my main focus. I feel like I'm at the point where I have a decent understanding of the character and his toolkit and can somewhat consistently pull off the basic tech stuff (dd, wd, shffl, shdf, jc-grab, some ledge and oos options).

What I'm wondering is if you at some point after picking up Marth got an "aha!"-moment where you felt like implementing a certain mindset, technique, practice routine or what not helped you "unlock" Marth and really take him to the next level?

I have a strong desire to improve and could use any tip to up my game.

Cheers!

If you want to have more aha moments, then you have to deeply internalize knowledge about the game. That knowledge all comes together to a single understanding.

PP, when you watch current top level marth play from m2k, pewpewu and the moon, what do you notice them doing well that most people don't pick up on, and what do you notice them doing wrong that would also be easy to miss? You can answer this in terms of tech, mental game, playstyle, or even more generally, but I'm wondering what you'll want to bring to the table to change things up when your marth hits the scene again (without disclosing any trade secrets).

I wish I had a better answer besides "have internalized knowledge most people watching don't have" but I don't.

Hello PP! I have another question for you.

How do you properly flow from a more aggressive oriented gameplay to a more defensive oriented gameplay seamlessly during a match? How do I know when I should transition between the two?

People have their own preferences for these things, and sometimes it's constrained by character. Sometimes you will want to be offensive since your opponent is weak to that, sometimes defensive. Maybe at low percent on one stage it's better to go in but skew defensive on another stage at low percent. I can't answer such a broad question except by pointing out how many different factors are involved.

 

[bts.mongoose]

Can you elaborate a little more on what you mean by internalized knowledge, and how to acquire it? I assume you mean understanding something intuitively rather than intellectually, but I'd like if it were demystified a little bit.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Sure, so basically when you're learning something like when to grab an approaching Marth Nair when you're new, you might struggle a lot. You'll mess up and get hit even though you see it coming. You're struggling to make corrections. This is when you're actively trying to learn. You try to control your character more through practice and learn more about how to discern the startup of Marth's Nair and how to time your punish. You also might even do a little bit of work seeing what positions the Nair usually happens from so you can prime yourself to punish. Eventually your focus on these different areas becomes subconscious knowledge and sort of combines together to create "automatic" counters to SH Nair. This means your knowledge has become internalized and you can begin struggling on your next problem consciously as you seek to build layers upon your understanding.

 

[ElectricBlade]

Hey, sorry to ask another question right away. I'll try to make this one better.

Lately I've been thinking of using the opponent's emotions against them while playing. I'll try to explain what I mean more. Like an opponent who playing confidently may be more willing to take risk, or if they're scared they may not push to hard to make stuff happen.

My question is, do you ever look for flaws in the opponent's mental game like this so you can more easily expect how the opponent may start to act. What are the effects of the core emotions you believe?


(Also I'm aware you can't exactly generalize emotion like that. But it also may be more applicable to lower level players due to being less seasoned at controlling emotions)