Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[bts.mongoose]

What are the effects of the core emotions you believe?)

The big ones I always hear are anger makes you more risk prone and fear makes you more risk averse.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey, sorry to ask another question right away. I'll try to make this one better.

Lately I've been thinking of using the opponent's emotions against them while playing. I'll try to explain what I mean more. Like an opponent who playing confidently may be more willing to take risk, or if they're scared they may not push to hard to make stuff happen.

My question is, do you ever look for flaws in the opponent's mental game like this so you can more easily expect how the opponent may start to act. What are the effects of the core emotions you believe?


(Also I'm aware you can't exactly generalize emotion like that. But it also may be more applicable to lower level players due to being less seasoned at controlling emotions)

Ah yeah you can generalize much more about this sort of thing. Everyone kind of does it already to an extent, like when people know Mango will be cocky when he's up they can get him to approach more easily.

I can't list everything about Melee and emotions here, but I can list a few helpful things to answer your question(emotions may only apply in a given moment or to the person's personality):

-fearful players generally put up shield more, move away more, or knee jerk approach without thinking more

-angry players don't waste time and generally want to get you, so coaxing them in or making them wait a little longer can make their approach even more obvious. This sometimes turns into more aggressive camping but in my experience if you break through that somewhat reliably they go back to approaching

-players about to win the set often become nervous and may fish for kills obviously, or avoid fishing for kills to be obvious but then not be doing much at all. recognizing these moments is key for turning a game/set around

 

[lokt]

For the marth ditto, if I'm in the corner and my opponent whiffs dtilt, and i predict that he'll dtilt again, what can I do to punish the second dtilt? Is jumping a good option?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Jumping is good, Fsmashing it is good, moving in with your own Dtilt before or after the second one is good if you time it well but that one's harder.

 

[DarkOreoMaster]

Edit:
A better question is, how do I learn to be more patient in my gameplay?

 

[bts.mongoose]

I have a mentality question: an oft discussed topic, in this thread and in well known books like Inner Game of Tennis, is sources of motivation, both good and bad. I've heard that the only sustainable or "good" things to be motivated by are playing to learn or playing for fun. But after some introspection, I've found that my main motivation for trying to improve is that I want to be perceived by my peers as a good player, which is already leading to me burning out. So my question is this: can you develop a mindset of playing to learn, or for fun? Is intrinsic motivation something you can acquire? Or do you just have it or you don't?

 

[capusa27]

Dr Peepee

For some time, you've stated that the Falco matchup is underdeveloped (among other matchups). One of your reasons for this is that people are very sub par against lasers. What you've stated is that their are many counters to lasers such as platforms, movement, and powershield.

Now, I may not be the most observant, but do players actively try to crouch cancel lasers and mix in that with regular hit stun? Looking at the frame data for crouch cancel laser (7 frames vs 12 frames for hit stun) it seems like it would always be optimal to CC lasers when not avoiding them entirely with slight mix ups with regular take laser. This is because of reduced hit stun (CC laser --> d-tilt/f-tilt comes out on frame 14, and CC laser --> jab comes out frame 11 for example), easier power shields, and you CC some of Falco's follow-ups.

Thoughts on my analysis? Where do you think the anti-laser game will innovate next? Thanks.

 

[Zorcey]

Dr Peepee So there was just this little confrontation between Leffen and some other notables like Duck and SmashGod over this clip (https://clips.twitch.tv/AbstemiousEmpathicFishJebaited …) and I was wondering what your opinion is.

Leffen alleges that Marths using forward throw and dthrow to techchase at mid percents is pointless, because it's high risk/low reward, and you're just going to uthrow 10-15% later anyway. This sounds like a sensible enough analysis, but I was wondering if you had any insight or maybe disagree for some reason I didn't consider?

 

[Dr3amSm4sher]

Dr Peepee

For some time, you've stated that the Falco matchup is underdeveloped (among other matchups). One of your reasons for this is that people are very sub par against lasers. What you've stated is that their are many counters to lasers such as platforms, movement, and powershield.

Now, I may not be the most observant, but do players actively try to crouch cancel lasers and mix in that with regular hit stun? Looking at the frame data for crouch cancel laser (7 frames vs 12 frames for hit stun) it seems like it would always be optimal to CC lasers when not avoiding them entirely with slight mix ups with regular take laser. This is because of reduced hit stun (CC laser --> d-tilt/f-tilt comes out on frame 14, and CC laser --> jab comes out frame 11 for example), easier power shields, and you CC some of Falco's follow-ups.

Thoughts on my analysis? Where do you think the anti-laser game will innovate next? Thanks.

Slight issue with this CC lasers tactic. You have to be in full crouch (not asdi down) to do so and marth's dash is actually pretty long making this semi difficult to do out of a dash dance or movement in general. And if you would like to dash out of said crouch this is another whole situation of itself. (dashing out of crouch is hard. but doable) A situation where this might be useful is run up dtilt as you can crouch at just outside laser to grab/shine/utilt range and, after taking a laser or watching it fly over your head, poke with dtilt or mash grab yourself. However, at this range you have to watch out for just run in dair and with you in crouch, dash dancing to avoid it becomes quite difficult. Also dair doesn't really care for your CC besides below 10%. However, if you shielded here though it would most likely powershield due to marth's shield quirk but at that point you could have just dash and shielded. Long story short It has it's niches but honestly powershielding is still probably the best as it gives you a frame 1 projectile with a frame 2 JC. All this being said if you must be hit by the laser, and you have time to CC it. I see no reason why you shouldn't.

But as you said before the next big step vs falco is realizing how little hitstun falco's lasers actually have and at most are +8 on hit. (with +8 being a perfectly spaced lowest laser possible.) A large portion of the time you can actually dash away or utilt falco before he can get to you. (turnaround utilt also works for some reason.)

 

[Dr Peepee]

I have a mentality question: an oft discussed topic, in this thread and in well known books like Inner Game of Tennis, is sources of motivation, both good and bad. I've heard that the only sustainable or "good" things to be motivated by are playing to learn or playing for fun. But after some introspection, I've found that my main motivation for trying to improve is that I want to be perceived by my peers as a good player, which is already leading to me burning out. So my question is this: can you develop a mindset of playing to learn, or for fun? Is intrinsic motivation something you can acquire? Or do you just have it or you don't?

I admittedly don't have a great answer to this question. Now I do think it's always possible for anyone to develop the motivations the book talks about as the "good" motivations. You do that through recognizing how you need to think and set goals and you practice that thinking daily, consciously so it will become programmed into your subconscious like mental tech skill training.

However, I've decided that I'm not sure motivations like wanting to be seen as good are necessarily something I should fight against. After all, most players I know including myself did not have the most pure of motivations as they improved so it seems hypocritical to suggest that you can't succeed with them. In my own case I did have lots of fun and loved the game and learning immensely which really kept my "worse" motivations in check to some degree, so if anything I would recommend returning to a beginner's mindset as much as possible. In the beginning, learning was fun and there was so much possibility. As we get habituated we lose sight of the improvement process being fun and just start getting stuck in our ways to not be perceived as worse skillwise than we are. I think the more you incorporate this beginner''s mindset the better, but I'm not sure I'd be one to say everyone needs to totally replace their other desires with it, but I would argue the more you relied on this type of thinking, or the good motivations, the better you'd do. A mix may be all you need to climb the ranks, though.

Dr Peepee

For some time, you've stated that the Falco matchup is underdeveloped (among other matchups). One of your reasons for this is that people are very sub par against lasers. What you've stated is that their are many counters to lasers such as platforms, movement, and powershield.

Now, I may not be the most observant, but do players actively try to crouch cancel lasers and mix in that with regular hit stun? Looking at the frame data for crouch cancel laser (7 frames vs 12 frames for hit stun) it seems like it would always be optimal to CC lasers when not avoiding them entirely with slight mix ups with regular take laser. This is because of reduced hit stun (CC laser --> d-tilt/f-tilt comes out on frame 14, and CC laser --> jab comes out frame 11 for example), easier power shields, and you CC some of Falco's follow-ups.

Thoughts on my analysis? Where do you think the anti-laser game will innovate next? Thanks.

That's pretty interesting. I don't like standing still that much vs Falco because his mobility advantage from laser doesn't need to be any greater and Marth can still exploit mobility advantage to some extent by dashing before or after lasers hit him(obviously if it's after then crouch could be better but combined with dashing before you may save more frames over a potential approach due to distance). Crouching does not seem altogether useless, but I won't pretend to know when it's a good idea vs bad. Probably a good time is when Falco is cornered so he can't really abuse mobility anyway. Beyond that I'd need to put serious work into the matchup but this is a good avenue to explore, though not quite a staple to me.

Dr Peepee So there was just this little confrontation between Leffen and some other notables like Duck and SmashGod over this clip (https://clips.twitch.tv/AbstemiousEmpathicFishJebaited …) and I was wondering what your opinion is.

Leffen alleges that Marths using forward throw and dthrow to techchase at mid percents is pointless, because it's high risk/low reward, and you're just going to uthrow 10-15% later anyway. This sounds like a sensible enough analysis, but I was wondering if you had any insight or maybe disagree for some reason I didn't consider?

That clip doesn't work for me =(

But anyway, tech chase using aerials/Fsmash with Fthrow/Dthrow is pretty safe and can have great reward. But he's talking about regrabs so I'll talk about that. There are positions vs FF'ers where Uthrow puts them on a platform in a position where they can very likely get out of the punish since they'll be much farther through their tech animation before you really have time to position yourself due to Uthrow lag. Now maybe Leffen would say to this "okay so tech chase until they aren't in that position anymore or have higher percent" and I'd agree with this. That's pretty much how I think about it except with the Fsmash/aerial part minimizing my risk if I think I need it. I feel like Leffen might have some other argument but I'm not sure what it would be. Vs Falcon tech chasing is extremely easy, vs Fox it's not terribly difficult, and vs Falco it's harder because of his longer tech roll so if you want to skew more toward Uthrow gambles or Fsmash/aerial Fthrow/Dthrow tech chasing then I would be fine with that. It just seems nuance is left out of this discussion, but obviously I didn't hear how it went down.

 

[jmlee337]

That clip doesn't work for me =(

https://clips.twitch.tv/AbstemiousEmpathicFishJebaited

 

[Dr Peepee]

Okay so that clip the Fox had too high of a percent when he got grabbed so Uthrow was a wayyy better option here. Fox has a much higher chance of getting out with DI away here. At lower percents it's more of a discussion imo.

 

[Clel42]

How do you improve your reaction time in melee? Specifically, I see that you can dash dance to bait out certain moves which you can punish, but I'm often too slow to notice it in time off of reaction, things that I see you punish (e.g getting them to whiff and then going right in). I don't mean reaction tech chasing, just reacting in neutral

 

[Zorcey]

How do you improve your reaction time in melee? Specifically, I see that you can dash dance to bait out certain moves which you can punish, but I'm often too slow to notice it in time off of reaction, things that I see you punish (e.g getting them to whiff and then going right in). I don't mean reaction tech chasing, just reacting in neutral

This is pretty simple: just practice reacting to a particular thing. It can seem impossible at first, but I promise if you practice you'll soon be able to react to it. In the case of DD grab that I believe you're referring to, practice reacting to, dodging, and grabbing specific moves you're having trouble with. (It might help to look for signals an opponent gives prior to the move actually coming out.)

 

[Taytertot]

How do you improve your reaction time in melee? Specifically, I see that you can dash dance to bait out certain moves which you can punish, but I'm often too slow to notice it in time off of reaction, things that I see you punish (e.g getting them to whiff and then going right in). I don't mean reaction tech chasing, just reacting in neutral

to add to what zorcey said, another thing that improves your reaction time is expectation. by this i mean that if you expect them to whiff an attack or grab or something then your reaction to that whiff will be faster. if youre sitting there just waiting for them and then they do something without you expecting it then you are much less likely to be able to react in time to punish. you can also improve this by just practicing a situation with a specific action that youre looking to whiff punish in mind.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

On the topic of reaction times, all the online tests I've seen present you with a known cue at an unknown timing (Smash example: reacting to the opponent dashing towards you). I wonder if the reaction times for known timings with different cues (example: reaction techchase) are different. My guess would be that they are around the same, but maybe focusing your attention towards one point of time could accelerate the recognition and decisionmaking processes, which would make the second type faster.

Does anyone here have some info about this?

 

[Aksorz1336]

Dear Peepee -
What do you think is the reason we don't see more of Marth at the very top of Melee-rankings? Do you think it is possible for players such as PewPewU and The Moon to keep climbing the ladder and some day be a serious threat for the gods? Is Marth as a character limiting for reaching higher without a second main?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Marth is a character that requires all kinds of skills/diligence to succeed. You can't just be fast, or edgeguard well, or CC well. You need to be able to move and zone and tech chase and juggle and gimp, etc. These are often complicated or require very specific plays with Marth. Now this is not to say other characters don't require these things, they mostly do, but Marth can't get away with being great by maximizing any one area(besides whatever M2K did). Every time you ignore an area of the game with Marth he suffers greatly. With PPU/Moon they both have some pretty good strengths like Moon's zoning and OOS game and PPU recovery but their weaknesses and game understanding seriously hold them back.

Marth is absolutely a top tier character, possibly the best in my mind. Whether those players will unlock his full potential remains to be seen.

 

[PolishSmash]

Kevin,
Random question. In what situations is spotdodge to dash away and come back in with a grab useful for? I think this is useful vs Sheik & Marth when you think she/he will come in with a grab? You can side step then dash behind her and come back in with a grab? I'm just looking for an explanation of the usefulness of this technique. I know other character use it too.

Or just dash away and come back in with a grab after they whiff something.

 

[capusa27]

Dr Peepee

What are your thoughts about Moon's set vs Axe at Smash Rivalries? It seemed like he performed a lot better, as he almost took two games vs Axe (almost won the first game and barely won the third). What impressed you most about the improvement in such a short amount of time from Full Bloom? Thanks.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee

What are your thoughts about Moon's set vs Axe at Smash Rivalries? It seemed like he performed a lot better, as he almost took two games vs Axe (almost won the first game and barely won the third). What impressed you most about the improvement in such a short amount of time from Full Bloom? Thanks.

Went back and watched this.

The first game Axe SD'd twice at high percent. You could say that didn't matter, but since Moon wasn't really edgeguarding Axe well and Axe as majority winning neutral that game he could have "Marthritis'd" him.

Game 2 Moon lost because he did an early aerial into shield too much since he couldn't do movement due to it being a small stage.

Game 3 was like game 1 except Moon had more room to move and thereby catch Axe moving in sometimes.

The main theme of the set for me was Axe would hit harder, tech chase and juggle better and edgeguard way better and then Moon would catch up some by converting stray aerials into a couple other moves and getting positional hits on Axe as Axe tried to just run back out of pressure instead of slow down. The fact that Axe never felt the need to slow down at all despite taking heavy damage for it occasionally says to me he wasn't really deterred from going in as Moon's defense wasn't strong enough. Axe also missed tech sometimes which made him lose advantage or get hit and that added up.

Moon's good things were that he had good Dairs OOS, occasionally mixed up his aerial timings in neutral and would usually get another hit or two and positional pressure off of those aerials. That last part and the Dair OOS are probably what helped most on his part.

I don't remember the Full Bloom set but I'd like to see if that result happens again if they rematch. I want to see Moon CC way more, dash turnaround shield to catch Nair behind, and learn the juggle and edgeguard plays. If he did those things he could probably win or make it close right now.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Dr Peepee
How would you go about preparing for a multitude of possible scenarios?
From what I've seen most top players mostly learn by experience from playing themselves. The one weakness I could see in this is not being prepared for scenarios you haven't been confronted with (for example missing relatively basic stuff in matchups you haven't played that much), plus the practical issue of some players not having access to top level practice in certain matchups, so they aren't confronted with these situations while playing.
The alternative is theorycrafting, but my issue with that is that the space of possible scenarios is so vast that one doesn't know where to start, so coming up with a method to systematically look at important scenarios isn't easy.
So far, I've had most success with learning from match analysis, but the same thing as in practice by playing applies again, that I am probably missing very important situations to dissect without noticing it.

I'm pretty sure there isn't a full solution to the problem because the game is very complex, but is there anything that has helped you?

 

[Dr Peepee]

There are two main ways. The first is to prepare for what other people do by looking at their specific decisions. This is partly done by analyzing relevant players(in top players' case, one another) but also through analyzing many people who play the character or get put in the position you're interested in. This can lead to blindness in the way you said if you just leave it at that. So, you need to take a position and look at all POSSIBLE choices not just what happened or even what you've seen happen before. That's how you expand your situational awareness. You do this and looking at patterns between games and sets enough and you can get a working model for how people make decisions. This is good and solves the problem some, but you also need to strengthen your own gameplan as much as possible to control their decisions. This means good practice, shadowboxing, watching your own matches, theorycraft ways to control people and testing it out, etc. This part combined with analysis that explores all possibilities and patterns covers problems and also makes you more likely to adapt in new situations. It takes a ton of work and analysis though and it's something you get as you improve.

 

[Kaoak]

Could you ask this in my Falco thread please?


None of that was specific. What kind of position? vs what characters? What stages? What percent is he at and his opponent when he seems to get the most off of it? Until I get specifics such as these and actual situations I can only speak generally.

M2K does well at the edge because he practices it a lot and knows how people try to beat him there so he feels comfortable in the reduced simplicity. He swats them away if he's on the edge and they come in or he drops and up-Bs as one mixup in case they try to wait out the Fair.

So as far as I am aware, Mew2king generally goes to the ledge whenever he takes a stock from his opponent to avoid getting killed through invincibility, or whenever he is backed into a corner, as it provides him a safe exit from neutral situations where he cannot retreat, because he has no stage. When he does this as Marth, many top players give him lots of respect, certain players such as SFat at Shine on Fountain of Dreams, have opted to give him centre stage entirely. When I camp ledge to avoid these situations however, players at my level pressure me hard until they hit me in the short window where I am not invincible. Marths will dtilt me, Falcos will dair the ledge and crouch cancel dsmash if I try to punish a whiff, Peaches will CC dsmash ad nauseum, Sheiks will just crouch and are usually able to punish my slow ledge get-up options or safely pressure me standing next to the ledge with hitboxes like ftilt and dtilt, Foxes, Falcons and Puffs tend not to give me as much trouble but some may try to sneak in and grab ledge from me especially while they still have respawn intangibility. I tend to have the same problem regardless of stage. Top players playing against M2K tend to give him lots of respect or often get grabbed for their efforts.

I practice quite a bit on the ledge, and usually get the most success out of haxdashing to confuse my opponenet as it looks similar to ledgedashing but that isn't how M2K tends to get his openings. Perhaps my issue stems from not stalling correctly or incorrectly positioning myself to sweetspot the ledge causing me to get hit? I always feel like when I am cornered like this, the risk reward is hugely in my opponent's favor because Marth is too slow to be able to quickly get a grab from this situation, my invincible ledge options are limited and often frame perfect, and my aerials get crouch cancelled and serve as a pretty weak deterrent when they have to do is hit me once and I will die.

How does Mew2King take advantage of these specific situations in order to skew the risk reward into his favor? Also I do not up b much to stall on the ledge, how can I take advantage of this option to become less vulnerable on the ledge?

P.S. Sorry for asking very general questions, I've recently talked to Duck about plateauing as a mid level player and he gave me tips to change my mindset, note taking and improve the quality of my questions. Also I apologize if this is too wordy and I don't mind if you skip it.

 

[Raycu]

So as far as I am aware, Mew2king generally goes to the ledge whenever he takes a stock from his opponent to avoid getting killed through invincibility, or whenever he is backed into a corner, as it provides him a safe exit from neutral situations where he cannot retreat, because he has no stage. When he does this as Marth, many top players give him lots of respect, certain players such as SFat at Shine on Fountain of Dreams, have opted to give him centre stage entirely. When I camp ledge to avoid these situations however, players at my level pressure me hard until they hit me in the short window where I am not invincible. Marths will dtilt me, Falcos will dair the ledge and crouch cancel dsmash if I try to punish a whiff, Peaches will CC dsmash ad nauseum, Sheiks will just crouch and are usually able to punish my slow ledge get-up options or safely pressure me standing next to the ledge with hitboxes like ftilt and dtilt, Foxes, Falcons and Puffs tend not to give me as much trouble but some may try to sneak in and grab ledge from me especially while they still have respawn intangibility. I tend to have the same problem regardless of stage. Top players playing against M2K tend to give him lots of respect or often get grabbed for their efforts.

I practice quite a bit on the ledge, and usually get the most success out of haxdashing to confuse my opponenet as it looks similar to ledgedashing but that isn't how M2K tends to get his openings. Perhaps my issue stems from not stalling correctly or incorrectly positioning myself to sweetspot the ledge causing me to get hit? I always feel like when I am cornered like this, the risk reward is hugely in my opponent's favor because Marth is too slow to be able to quickly get a grab from this situation, my invincible ledge options are limited and often frame perfect, and my aerials get crouch cancelled and serve as a pretty weak deterrent when they have to do is hit me once and I will die.

How does Mew2King take advantage of these specific situations in order to skew the risk reward into his favor? Also I do not up b much to stall on the ledge, how can I take advantage of this option to become less vulnerable on the ledge?

P.S. Sorry for asking very general questions, I've recently talked to Duck about plateauing as a mid level player and he gave me tips to change my mindset, note taking and improve the quality of my questions. Also I apologize if this is too wordy and I don't mind if you skip it.

Maybe if you notice people getting ready to counterattack, just don't attack. Take center stage instead.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

So as far as I am aware, Mew2king generally goes to the ledge whenever he takes a stock from his opponent to avoid getting killed through invincibility, or whenever he is backed into a corner, as it provides him a safe exit from neutral situations where he cannot retreat, because he has no stage. When he does this as Marth, many top players give him lots of respect, certain players such as SFat at Shine on Fountain of Dreams, have opted to give him centre stage entirely. When I camp ledge to avoid these situations however, players at my level pressure me hard until they hit me in the short window where I am not invincible. Marths will dtilt me, Falcos will dair the ledge and crouch cancel dsmash if I try to punish a whiff, Peaches will CC dsmash ad nauseum, Sheiks will just crouch and are usually able to punish my slow ledge get-up options or safely pressure me standing next to the ledge with hitboxes like ftilt and dtilt, Foxes, Falcons and Puffs tend not to give me as much trouble but some may try to sneak in and grab ledge from me especially while they still have respawn intangibility. I tend to have the same problem regardless of stage. Top players playing against M2K tend to give him lots of respect or often get grabbed for their efforts.

I practice quite a bit on the ledge, and usually get the most success out of haxdashing to confuse my opponenet as it looks similar to ledgedashing but that isn't how M2K tends to get his openings. Perhaps my issue stems from not stalling correctly or incorrectly positioning myself to sweetspot the ledge causing me to get hit? I always feel like when I am cornered like this, the risk reward is hugely in my opponent's favor because Marth is too slow to be able to quickly get a grab from this situation, my invincible ledge options are limited and often frame perfect, and my aerials get crouch cancelled and serve as a pretty weak deterrent when they have to do is hit me once and I will die.

How does Mew2King take advantage of these specific situations in order to skew the risk reward into his favor? Also I do not up b much to stall on the ledge, how can I take advantage of this option to become less vulnerable on the ledge?

P.S. Sorry for asking very general questions, I've recently talked to Duck about plateauing as a mid level player and he gave me tips to change my mindset, note taking and improve the quality of my questions. Also I apologize if this is too wordy and I don't mind if you skip it.

It is important to realize if you can go for another stall or not as you grab the edge (if you already used up some of the invincibility and refreshing isn't safe anymore, you have a big problem). I would assume that this poses the main difficulty, accurate ledge play needs high processing speed to make decisions in time, you can't bail out with a dash back and reconsider your options like you can in neutral a lot of the time. Your processing speed should naturally increase with practice and understanding the options better over time.

Being good at the haxdash is already a big asset as it provides a stall you can use even if the opponent is relatively close and wait if they commit to a laggy option.

I think many of the stalls Mew2King does aren't really that safe, but punishing them is risky if you don't know exactly what you are doing, and most top players haven't studied it to that extent so they just don't take the risk. If you have the necessary tech skill, the haxdash is usually your safest choice. Other stalls depend on the matchup, for example vs Fox many stalls are very risky because of the shine, while other characters don't have the means to punish the "standard stall" (drop->jump->regrab) reliably by not having hitboxes that hit that low.

EDIT: Looks like I underestimated how disjointed Marth's ledgegrabbox is, I thought there were much more ways of beating the standard stall than there are.

A lot of the options your opponents use against you seem like you could beat them with ledgedash->shield, which allows a shieldgrab against impatient options like the Falco d-smash, which then could lead to a quick Mew2King-style edgeguard.
My ledgedash arsenal is usually using either grab, shield, roll in, dash in or waiting in the corner (haven't looked into it that much so I recommend experimenting with what options and which ratios work well for you), plus using fair or nair from ledge from time to time. The idea is that shield and roll disincentivize early attacks, while grab and dash to centerstage do well against waiting for a whiff (assuming the grab connects), and if they stay back, staying in the corner is safe.

From what I've seen, Mew2King's main setups are
- late fair from ledge (with drifting in), which hits surprisingly far inward, and then follow with a grab
- using ledgedash down (so he is right at the corner) and whiffpunishing attacks that he avoids by not taking space
- up-air from ledge: best combostarter from the ledge, he uses it if the opponent commited to much (for example down-smashes that he escaped by grabbing ledge in time)
- as soon as he is onstage, using options like WD back, shield or CC to get a grab (this works especially well because many players will try to whiffpunish his fair from ledge and do this incorrectly)

So a lot of it is being safe when it looks unsafe and capitalizing on the opponent's misjudgment.

 

[Dr Peepee]

So as far as I am aware, Mew2king generally goes to the ledge whenever he takes a stock from his opponent to avoid getting killed through invincibility, or whenever he is backed into a corner, as it provides him a safe exit from neutral situations where he cannot retreat, because he has no stage. When he does this as Marth, many top players give him lots of respect, certain players such as SFat at Shine on Fountain of Dreams, have opted to give him centre stage entirely. When I camp ledge to avoid these situations however, players at my level pressure me hard until they hit me in the short window where I am not invincible. Marths will dtilt me, Falcos will dair the ledge and crouch cancel dsmash if I try to punish a whiff, Peaches will CC dsmash ad nauseum, Sheiks will just crouch and are usually able to punish my slow ledge get-up options or safely pressure me standing next to the ledge with hitboxes like ftilt and dtilt, Foxes, Falcons and Puffs tend not to give me as much trouble but some may try to sneak in and grab ledge from me especially while they still have respawn intangibility. I tend to have the same problem regardless of stage. Top players playing against M2K tend to give him lots of respect or often get grabbed for their efforts.

I practice quite a bit on the ledge, and usually get the most success out of haxdashing to confuse my opponenet as it looks similar to ledgedashing but that isn't how M2K tends to get his openings. Perhaps my issue stems from not stalling correctly or incorrectly positioning myself to sweetspot the ledge causing me to get hit? I always feel like when I am cornered like this, the risk reward is hugely in my opponent's favor because Marth is too slow to be able to quickly get a grab from this situation, my invincible ledge options are limited and often frame perfect, and my aerials get crouch cancelled and serve as a pretty weak deterrent when they have to do is hit me once and I will die.

How does Mew2King take advantage of these specific situations in order to skew the risk reward into his favor? Also I do not up b much to stall on the ledge, how can I take advantage of this option to become less vulnerable on the ledge?

P.S. Sorry for asking very general questions, I've recently talked to Duck about plateauing as a mid level player and he gave me tips to change my mindset, note taking and improve the quality of my questions. Also I apologize if this is too wordy and I don't mind if you skip it.

So there are a few things about this. One is that M2K is cornered more because he plays more defensively and waits more. That's why he had to learn to fight on the edge.

As for what M2K does, I'll see if I can explain it. Those Marth Dtilts and all that can only hit a Marth who is still holding the edge while vulnerable or is DJ'ing back to the edge too high. If you sweetspot your DJ regrab you won't get Marth Dtilted or hit by any other move besides a runoff shine or runoff (DJ) aerial. So you need to work on your regrabs. Also, M2K doesn't always just refresh as fast as he can over and over. He refreshes then has some time to watch because technically if the opponent wants to runoff shine or runoff (DJ) aerial then they have to move as he lets go of the edge. Remember he can DJ regrab safely vs everything else. This means sometimes he's vulnerable and watching to see if anyone tries to come in. If they are close because they run in or just happen to be there, or are doing that crouch thing you talked about then he will DJ Fair away from the edge so it's harder to punish if they crouch(not likely Peach will punish for example) and gives some damage/sets up tech chases/makes them back off. M2K has also mixed in some drop down Up-B to the edge to hit people reacting to his drop down before he DJs and also to change the timing of his refresh as well as hitting opponents away who are close to the edge. Now here's the big thing: M2K knows his punishes off of these weird hits. Because of this and his patience(the opponent is conditioned to expect hits if they're near the edge) the opponent will just back off and let M2K regrab. Then they have to get really far away because that stall makes you kind of zone out and M2K can rush on and hit you. Add all this up, in addition to people not being very good at edgeguarding/stageguarding already and you get a strong M2K position.

I don't actually think Marth is great on the edge despite all of this, but if there's one thing M2K has proven it's learning how to maximize the usefulness of the position.

I am glad you tried again with more clear questions. I hope you continue to make progress =)

 

[Kopaka]

Dr Peepee This is a primarily philosophical question regarding how we represent conflict and competition without much actual Melee science involved, let's say as a way to reframe how someone views what's happening on the CRT in front of them.

After just having finished reading Unlimited Power, the chapter on How to Handle Resistance and Solve problems reminded me of some interview of yours (I can't remember which one exactly, or even if I'm just imagining this!) where you mentioned accepting a rush of aggression that would be coming your way (I think Leffen was mentioned) and directing it in a positive way that works for you.

"You'll find you can reach your outcome more effectively by gently aligning and then leading rather than by pushing violently"

"We can change our representation or perception about anything and in a moment change our states and behaviors. This is what reframing is all about"

'Mental tech skill training practiced daily' Of course being one of the major themes of the book obviously, is this at least one of the ways competitive pressures or matchup plateaus or periods of being 'stuck' that many people seem plagued by can be reframed? What about creating win-wins? Are you sometimes giving your opponent win-wins, where they're getting what they want to accomplish, while at the same time being in favor for you? Does this come from accepting that many people have different representations of what 'right' means in a matchup or truth of a matchup or character, agreeing to agree with "their" truth, and giving them an "And this sequence of moves may work against this because..." instead of a "But"? Ultimately changing the way you communicate to yourself about an unusual or new truth someone may have about a matchup that they think is right?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee This is a primarily philosophical question regarding how we represent conflict and competition without much actual Melee science involved, let's say as a way to reframe how someone views what's happening on the CRT in front of them.

After just having finished reading Unlimited Power, the chapter on How to Handle Resistance and Solve problems reminded me of some interview of yours (I can't remember which one exactly, or even if I'm just imagining this!) where you mentioned accepting a rush of aggression that would be coming your way (I think Leffen was mentioned) and directing it in a positive way that works for you.

"You'll find you can reach your outcome more effectively by gently aligning and then leading rather than by pushing violently"

"We can change our representation or perception about anything and in a moment change our states and behaviors. This is what reframing is all about"

'Mental tech skill training practiced daily' Of course being one of the major themes of the book obviously, is this at least one of the ways competitive pressures or matchup plateaus or periods of being 'stuck' that many people seem plagued by can be reframed? What about creating win-wins? Are you sometimes giving your opponent win-wins, where they're getting what they want to accomplish, while at the same time being in favor for you? Does this come from accepting that many people have different representations of what 'right' means in a matchup or truth of a matchup or character, agreeing to agree with "their" truth, and giving them an "And this sequence of moves may work against this because..." instead of a "But"? Ultimately changing the way you communicate to yourself about an unusual or new truth someone may have about a matchup that they think is right?

I'm not sure I fully understand the question(s) but I'll answer those two in the last paragraph.

The main thing about plateaus is that people get stuck in a particular way of thinking and there is no growth. You need to believe in what you've already learned but constantly be challenging it and adding more layers. When you either doubt yourself or can't figure out how to change your thinking you plateau. This is why training your mindset and appreciating other ways of approaching the game are so important because it builds many more ways of problem solving and resilience to be prepared for any obstacle in game or in training.

The "win-win" you describe is kind of like using someone's weight against them in an actual fight. In other words, it's extremely effective to give someone false confidence and then sweep the rug out from under them at the last moment. Since we were talking about M2K before let's use him as an example. M2K has certain steps and conditions for his actions and he puts those actions into a specific formula. At this spacing or this situation, this is the right answer with an occasional exception. Let's use the example of letting M2K get back on the stage from the edge and then he runs at you and attacks. Suppose you're too far away then he might not attack. If you're close enough, then the condition feels fulfilled for M2K. He has you conditioned to go slowly and give him stage and then you're lagging from so much non-interaction that he can attack and you're RIGHT THERE. Obviously if you know what he wants(or have practiced reactions) you can begin a counterattack before you "should" be able to react and use that confidence in opening against him, hitting him and ideally killing him or doing lots of damage. This is a big confidence breaker for people and is a very strong way to gain momentum and psychological advantage over an opponent for a game, set, or even lifetime tourney experience. There are other ways to lead your opponent on then surprise them but this is a simple example.

 

[Kopaka]

I'm not sure I fully understand the question(s) but I'll answer those two in the last paragraph.

The main thing about plateaus is that people get stuck in a particular way of thinking and there is no growth. You need to believe in what you've already learned but constantly be challenging it and adding more layers. When you either doubt yourself or can't figure out how to change your thinking you plateau. This is why training your mindset and appreciating other ways of approaching the game are so important because it builds many more ways of problem solving and resilience to be prepared for any obstacle in game or in training.

The "win-win" you describe is kind of like using someone's weight against them in an actual fight. In other words, it's extremely effective to give someone false confidence and then sweep the rug out from under them at the last moment. Since we were talking about M2K before let's use him as an example. M2K has certain steps and conditions for his actions and he puts those actions into a specific formula. At this spacing or this situation, this is the right answer with an occasional exception. Let's use the example of letting M2K get back on the stage from the edge and then he runs at you and attacks. Suppose you're too far away then he might not attack. If you're close enough, then the condition feels fulfilled for M2K. He has you conditioned to go slowly and give him stage and then you're lagging from so much non-interaction that he can attack and you're RIGHT THERE. Obviously if you know what he wants(or have practiced reactions) you can begin a counterattack before you "should" be able to react and use that confidence in opening against him, hitting him and ideally killing him or doing lots of damage. This is a big confidence breaker for people and is a very strong way to gain momentum and psychological advantage over an opponent for a game, set, or even lifetime tourney experience. There are other ways to lead your opponent on then surprise them but this is a simple example.

Appreciate the insightful response despite an admittedly rushed questionnaire If I were to clear up any of the other questions I was basically just curious to hear about how that book in particular (Or any really) has helped shape new perspectives you have on the competition you face.

 

[Dr Peepee]

There are various other things like state changes which you can argue will totally change your playstyle and make you much harder to read, but nothing I have super fleshed out right now.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Dr Peepee
Which players have the most strategically sound playstyle in your opinion?

How would you make use of a strong gameplan against an opponent that is slightly weaker at the macro-level, but who performs well in a lot of individual micro-situations. And the same question from the other side. Would the "macroplayer" try to keep the gamestate simplified while the "microplayer" tries to create more chaotic situations?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Do you mean which specific players or which macro/micro balance players?

Vs both it's pretty much the same to me, you put them in unfamiliar situations or use principles they don't seem to have internalized as well as you. The micro player is more likely to struggle with new situations and the macro player is likely to be less refined overall which is something to generally exploit.

I've always felt kind of strange using macro and micro to describe players, since I've always thought you need to look at individual situations to understand the whole, meaning micro and macro are closely intertwined. Even compared to the offense/defense dichotomy it feels less helpful to me, but that may be because I haven't seen people talk about it in depth with many examples before.

 

[Kazeshin]

Hey PP (or anyone else with experience for that matter), should I utilize pivot fair/nair in neutral?
I've been trying to implement it into my game for a few days now, but ran into the problem of it being too slow to be used reactionary and it seems that using it non - reactionary has a bad risk/reward whenever i try it, because I'm guaranteed to lose stage from dashing back, while also putting me into the air against a grounded opponent if i whiff.
Should I only use it as a read?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Do you mean which specific players or which macro/micro balance players?

Vs both it's pretty much the same to me, you put them in unfamiliar situations or use principles they don't seem to have internalized as well as you. The micro player is more likely to struggle with new situations and the macro player is likely to be less refined overall which is something to generally exploit.

I've always felt kind of strange using macro and micro to describe players, since I've always thought you need to look at individual situations to understand the whole, meaning micro and macro are closely intertwined. Even compared to the offense/defense dichotomy it feels less helpful to me, but that may be because I haven't seen people talk about it in depth with many examples before.

Specific players.

Hm my definition of macro/micro would be something like this (I think of it in a weird abstract way so I hope it's not too complicated):
Think of an image where a point in it is a gamestate and its color the evaluation. This image represents the actual game. Now both players also have an image like this which represents their view of the game.
Points being close together means that they have only few differences, like the distance between the characters being a little bit more or less while everything else is the same.
Now, a macroplayer's image resembles the game's image on a larger scale, for example there would be generally brighter spots on that player's image where there are brighter spots in the game's image. If you look very closely though they might look completely different. For the microplayer it is the other way around.
I'm using a dichotomy here for simplicity but obviously you could look at a continuum of possible scales.

Putting this into practice, the macroplayer would be better at guiding the game towards gamestates that are generally favourable for them, while the microplayer would be better at comparing options in individual situations.
Having the right idea for a punish but not recognizing you are a little late would be a micro-scale mistake, rushing in at a fully actionable opponent from too far would be a macro-scale mistake.
If you would look at extreme cases of being strong at the one and weak at the other, the microplayer has the advantage because Melee is a concrete game and small changes in parameters can drastically change the evaluation and what the best options are.

Thinking about it again, I'm also not too sure if the macro/micro-dichotomy is that useful, because there are a few holes in the analogy and it might be flawed altogether.
Assuming there is a pattern in how the microplayer colors the spots at the micro-level, in which case that underlying structure could also be used to map the spots on the image, and in this rearranged image the pattern manifests itself on the macro-scale, so it might be unclear which is which and a matter of perspective.
Assuming there is no pattern, the player would need to have been in all of those situations which is very unrealistic.
I think deep game understanding isn't really captured that well by the analogy, as it usually means having more connections between the gamestates, so it would be something like a multi-dimensional image which then reveals way more patterns.

 

[lokt]

Hi pp, what options does marth have vs puff drifting in from her full hop height and landing with a bair to immediate crouch?

Here's an example of the situation:

https://youtu.be/Mg0v2eyacoo?t=1m49s

 

[krazyzyko]

Hey PP (or anyone else with experience for that matter), should I utilize pivot fair/nair in neutral?
I've been trying to implement it into my game for a few days now, but ran into the problem of it being too slow to be used reactionary and it seems that using it non - reactionary has a bad risk/reward whenever i try it, because I'm guaranteed to lose stage from dashing back, while also putting me into the air against a grounded opponent if i whiff.
Should I only use it as a read?

Pivot AC nair if you're threatened.
Pivot > SH > react with fair if opp comes in, react with late up air if you're too close to the ground.
Pivot > SH > wave land if opp respects you.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hi pp, what options does marth have vs puff drifting in from her full hop height and landing with a bair to immediate crouch?

Here's an example of the situation:

https://youtu.be/Mg0v2eyacoo?t=1m49s

You ideally get her out of her FH with Fair. If she gets the Bair out you can pivot grab it unless she full weaves back and if she does full weave back or you miss the timing youjust try to grab the crouch or just fight what comes after that.

 

[s0da is bad for you]

hey peepee i recently picked up marth because hes so much fun. how do i deal with fox's running shine. if i keep getting hit by it does that mean im too defensive with my dash dance or staying on the ground too long?

 

[heyitshoward]

hey peepee i recently picked up marth because hes so much fun. how do i deal with fox's running shine. if i keep getting hit by it does that mean im too defensive with my dash dance or staying on the ground too long?

Instead of just answering your question I'm going to ask you some questions for you to think about.

- What are you doing when Fox decides to use running shine on you?
- How does Fox approach you when he tries to hit you with running shine? (how close is he, how does he try to run at you, etc)

- What are his other options when he approaches you like this?​

- What beats running shine if:

- You are grounded?
- You are in the air?​

- When can you not use those options that beat running shine?
- What are running shine's strengths and weaknesses?

This is a list of questions and I think if you begin to walk yourself through these lines of thought you will be able to think of a potential answer. The list isn't really exhaustive of the topics you should think about either.

I'm not trying to talk down to you so I apologize if I'm wrong, but your question feels very much like a "stumbling block" question. Like you play some games and you notice you keep getting hit by running shine so you say, "Ugh, I can't beat running shine!" and don't put a whole ton of thought into it past that. Although running shine is pretty good, there are lots of ways of going about beating it so you can definitely figure out a few if you give the problem proper attention.