The basic options that beat running shine are
-grabbing early(going into him)
-grabbing late(moving away)
-retreating aerial or aerial in place
-dtilt in place
-
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- Thread starter Cactuar
- Start date
-grabbing early(going into him)
-grabbing late(moving away)
-retreating aerial or aerial in place
-dtilt in place
ElectricBlade
Smash Apprentice
Hello PP! Today a top level smash 4 play "Locus" released a video on mentality. I was wondering how you feel about this video? Anything to add to it?
Here is the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWq3jI_fBvA&feature=youtu.be
Here is the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWq3jI_fBvA&feature=youtu.be
Hey there experienced Marth players! I feel like I understand most of Marth's options in a given situation however I dont know how good they are and the reasoning behind why I should use them. What is the best way for me to learn all of Marth's good options and the reasonings behind them in a variety of situations?
maclo4
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2016
- Messages
- 114
Hey pp,
Any tips on good ways to punish after a stray that leads into a knockdown on a fastfaller? Ex. falco is at 20-30 percent, I call out his laser with a sh nair which puts him in a knockdown situation. I've heard you say that it's possible to tech chase consistently with practice but it seems the timing is a lot less lenient than in some other situations. LMK if this isnt the type of question for this thread also
Any tips on good ways to punish after a stray that leads into a knockdown on a fastfaller? Ex. falco is at 20-30 percent, I call out his laser with a sh nair which puts him in a knockdown situation. I've heard you say that it's possible to tech chase consistently with practice but it seems the timing is a lot less lenient than in some other situations. LMK if this isnt the type of question for this thread also
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Chesstiger2612
Smash Lord
Options being good comes down to them doing well against some of the opponent's relevant options.
You can analyze micro-situations by starting with an arbritrary option and then finding something that counters it, and so on... At some point you will run into some sort of RPS. The options in that mixup are good because if you would take away one of them, there would be no counter to some of your opponent's options.
Another way to look at it is to focus what kind of properties a good option should have in a given situation. I usually see it as avoiding threat zones (not being in certain zones at certain points of time), creating threat zones (the opposite) and actually putting attacks out.
The next step is then to look at what option accomplishes these criteria the best.
For example, when there is a threat zone you can't dash out of in time, shielding is logical.
If you want to put an attack out at a certain place but avoid a threat zone soon after, you want to choose an option with low cooldown to dash out in time (or use shield, but if you have the choice go for the more flexible option): using an aerial as you are landing accomplishes that.
This is obviously oversimplified, for example you could can also deal with a threatzone by attacking the opponent in their startup, but I think the general idea can be very helpful, and as you get more comfortable with it you notice the exceptions.
Well if you hit with the tip of Nair and they DI'd away you may not get a true followup but may have advantage when you get close to them. It really depends on their DI and their percent and the starting position. If they land close to the edge and have to tech in place it's easier. Anyway let's assume you're close enough to normally tech chase. If this is true, then it should work like throw into tech chase and you shouldn't miss it. Also you can run cancel Fsmash if you need extra range and people don't really expect it.
maclo4
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2016
- Messages
- 114
Alright thanks I'll just keep on grinding it out in 20xx then
PolishSmash
Smash Journeyman
Hey PP,
So Ive been trying to learn how to play Marth with using A for my aerials. My thumb can't flick the c-stick fast enough to get my aerials out as fast as I can with the A button. (Especially for double sh fairs). The game also feels more natural using A for some reason. I'm having a problem though with my drift. I'll often times full hop and fair and drift forward too much which messes up my spacing and I drop a combo or get shield grabbed or whatever. I understand that I have to quickly reset the control stick to the neutral position after my aerial comes out so I don't drift forward. But this is really difficult to get use to. Any tips you can give me since I know you use A as well? Thank you in advance.
Plus retreating fairs are difficult.
So Ive been trying to learn how to play Marth with using A for my aerials. My thumb can't flick the c-stick fast enough to get my aerials out as fast as I can with the A button. (Especially for double sh fairs). The game also feels more natural using A for some reason. I'm having a problem though with my drift. I'll often times full hop and fair and drift forward too much which messes up my spacing and I drop a combo or get shield grabbed or whatever. I understand that I have to quickly reset the control stick to the neutral position after my aerial comes out so I don't drift forward. But this is really difficult to get use to. Any tips you can give me since I know you use A as well? Thank you in advance.
Plus retreating fairs are difficult.
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Taytertot
Smash Ace
personally i find myself using A for sh double fairs or sh early aerials (other than uair) and the c-stick for drift back aerials and uair. maybe this will work for you.
PolishSmash
Smash Journeyman
Dr. PP,
In the Apex 2013 interview you mentioned that you have to think multiple steps in advance when playing as Marth. Can you elaborate on that more? I guess I'm looking for an example. Thanks.
https://youtu.be/bk_IQGlMiEk
In the Apex 2013 interview you mentioned that you have to think multiple steps in advance when playing as Marth. Can you elaborate on that more? I guess I'm looking for an example. Thanks.
https://youtu.be/bk_IQGlMiEk
Taytertot
Smash Ace
while im not PP, i think i can give you some insight there as well.
what he means, i think, is that if you throw out a dtilt in neutral you need to be prepared with answers to the possible outcomes of that dtilt. if it whiffs how do you want to respond if they jump to make it whiff? and what if they DD out of the way, do you have a response to that as well? if it connects how are you going to followup? are you just going to opt to take stage positioning or can you guarantee a grab? are you ready for where the dtilt will place them and how you want to approach then next interaction based on that positioning?
not only do you want to have an answer for those question but you want to follow down the tree of questioning each provides til you have a very solid gameplan for both possible scenarios. the reason for this is that you may know what kinds of punishes you can get off of a dtilt in neutral from watching higher level players but are you ready to react to the dtilt connecting with the possible punishes youve seen? are you ready for your followups given different types of DI or will you flub the punish and walk away dealing only 10-20% or even worse, get punished for messing up your combo? thinking this many steps ahead will be very helpful in creating a gameplan that flows well from neutral to punish game to edgeguard game back to neutral without you opening yourself up.
these are the kinds of questions that give you insight into how to prepare yourself for each step of a match. and i believe this is the kind of logic PP uses. its a very chess oriented style of play.
that being said, you want to have these answers ingrained in you before a match so that youre not using up important brain power on it during a match. it needs to come naturally which is why theorycrafting and shadowboxing can be very useful for you.
Chesstiger2612
Smash Lord
Dr Peepee
Is an abstract understanding helpful to develop an intuitive understanding? Usually when I understand something on an abstract level it isn't applicable at first, and after some time (could be weeks or months) I am able to apply it. It also happens the other way around, I do something right by intuition and then later find out why it is right.
The question however is how useful the abstract understanding was, because there is no way I can compare learning the same concept with and without.
If you have to be in a situation x times before doing it right, as people say, would any time used on dissecting gameplay to get to an abstract understanding be better spent just playing so you are confronted with these situations in the necessary quantity?
If you mean abstract understanding as conscious understanding, then that always has to happen first. Conscious understanding must be worked on until deeply understood, at which point it becomes subconscious. You can then return to conscious work in order to develop more layers of understanding. You can be in a situation, watch it, discuss it even and learn it consciously but to advance it you will have to do something besides playing the game, which many are not comfortable with.
Clel42
Smash Rookie
Hey Peepee at one point, I don't remember where I think it was on your stream, you said that you originally weren't working on your marth movement for movement but you were actually working on something else, which then became movement. What was the original thing?
I was working on things like rhythm and pieces of movement that I later put all together. Not something I'd recommend to most people.
Zorcey
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- May 12, 2015
- Messages
- 371
Dr Peepee
There are so many different variations of Marth's Fair. I was writing down some analytical notes and I realized I didn't really understand the variations as well as I might have thought I did. Could you maybe give insight into when you would use each variant and why? (For example, where Double Fair would be useful, or Pivot Fair or AC Fair etc.)This is a fairly general question, so if you're only able to give some general principles for each variant without more specific situations that's perfectly cool.
For what you listed and a few others I'll give short explanations.
Quickly, Fair is a tool used to establish space and to catch opponents out of the air or keep them locked in shield primarily. It can sometimes work well vs grounded opponents but is definitely riskier then. If it tippers it breaks CC/ASDI down fairly early.
Double Fair- should only be occasionally used. Can catch people trying to punish single Fair variants and also used to more heavily bait people into approaching to punish lag.
Pivot (rising) Fair- great for holding space and countering approaches. Makes use of Marth's dash length/speed and also how quickly Fair starts up.
AC Fair- Gives quick action upon landing. Sets up for things like double Fair or rising Fair into waveland or just AC Fair into a different play, etc.
Falling Fair- still a bit of an overused option, but if you can hit a shield at any time/spacing with it or tipper it on hit you can often be in a very good position. It's also pretty safe if you miss(though much less so if you're drifting forward).
Rising Fair DJ- not so great at controlling vertical opponents, but good for changing timing and direction of the Fair wall. This is because you can FF/drift at many more points now, which means you can Fair at more points. You also can use platforms from here to further complicate things for your opponent.
Quickly, Fair is a tool used to establish space and to catch opponents out of the air or keep them locked in shield primarily. It can sometimes work well vs grounded opponents but is definitely riskier then. If it tippers it breaks CC/ASDI down fairly early.
Double Fair- should only be occasionally used. Can catch people trying to punish single Fair variants and also used to more heavily bait people into approaching to punish lag.
Pivot (rising) Fair- great for holding space and countering approaches. Makes use of Marth's dash length/speed and also how quickly Fair starts up.
AC Fair- Gives quick action upon landing. Sets up for things like double Fair or rising Fair into waveland or just AC Fair into a different play, etc.
Falling Fair- still a bit of an overused option, but if you can hit a shield at any time/spacing with it or tipper it on hit you can often be in a very good position. It's also pretty safe if you miss(though much less so if you're drifting forward).
Rising Fair DJ- not so great at controlling vertical opponents, but good for changing timing and direction of the Fair wall. This is because you can FF/drift at many more points now, which means you can Fair at more points. You also can use platforms from here to further complicate things for your opponent.
CanBeatAnyFaux
Smash Cadet
Hey PP, I know the general conception of d-tilt is that it's one of the best moves in the game, and I'm not necessarily saying that that is wrong, but I find that the amount of time most characters like to spend in the air makes it far less useful in my experience. I'm far from a neutral god but I've found that most of the time the way I space/the opponent spaces makes d-tilt a really unreliable option in neutral. It might just be that I'm bad but I think it's not quite as amazing and universally useful as people seem to think.
Chesstiger2612
Smash Lord
Without the existence of d-tilt they wouldn't need to spend as much time in the air, which comes with its own disadvantages.
In general, you can get leverage out of a tool by using it in the situations where it can create an advantage, but also through the concessions your opponent makes to avoid these situations.
PolishSmash
Smash Journeyman
Hope this is not a stupid question. I've been switching between Falco and Marth for the longest time now. I'm not sure which character to fully commit to. In real life I'm not a natural planner. I do everything last minute. Can I still ultimately succeed with Marth if I don't have this quality? (I guess it can be learned?) Both characters are a lot of fun but I always switch to the other one after a while because I get bored lol I feel like in the past my natural instinct was to just approach and I overextended a lot. Marth helped me fix that for obvious reasons. Not sure if my playstyle fits Marth
I enjoy movement in the game.
I love comboing (I guess that's everyone?)
I like to be efficient when I play
I like technical skill (Practicing pivots with Marth now)
I enjoy movement in the game.
I love comboing (I guess that's everyone?)
I like to be efficient when I play
I like technical skill (Practicing pivots with Marth now)
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bboss
Smash Journeyman
Not pp but i'll put my two cents in.
You sound like a marth player at heart (pivots, efficient, comboing, movement) so I'd recommend Marth. But i would recommend keeping Falco as a secondary.
As I player I think Marth is coming back in a big way.
Well Dtilt makes some characters jump more vs Marth which is part of what makes his Fair and Dtilt together amazing. But yeah in some matchups like Puff Dtilt is not going to be your staple tool. I have talked about how I have overhyped Dtilt some but the main idea is to know what to threaten out of your dash to expand your area of threat, not necessarily the Dtilt itself.
PolishSmash
Smash Journeyman
Hey PP , any chance we might see you compete at EVO? Hope all is well with you
PolishSmash
Smash Journeyman
Yea I was thinking of keeping Falco as a secondary, however their jump squat is different and their timings so I feel it would mess me up switching. Not sure how the pros do it I guess they are use to it. Appreciate the input either way bboss
bboss
Smash Journeyman
Yeah lol their ledgedash timings are so insanely different that it's really hard to adjust. Plus Falco's really long js can mess you up in wavedash timings.
What can I do to call out sheik players who like to wavedash back out of shield against my dtilt/fair when they're in the corner(under the middle of battlefield platform)? I feel like I'm not winning as much as I should in this situation because I'm not punishing this option consistently, and I don't get much off grabs if they di my throws and get to the ledge.
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If they back up, then they can't back up again so take stage to some degree. Also, if they're on the edge just stand at edgedash range and prepare to Dtilt. You can watch M2K do this vs Plup that one game they played not too long ago.
ElectricBlade
Smash Apprentice
What do you need help with in specific?
dawz
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2016
- Messages
- 6
I need help in the neutral game landing that first hit and not having her disjointed hitboxes hit me. Just the neutral game in general.
CanBeatAnyFaux
Smash Cadet
vs Peach you need to hit her with the sword
Space outside of run dash attack range and threaten wd dtilt. Be ready to fair or pivot grab her aerial approaches or jumps in general. Sometimes you will have to get closer to Fair so don't always Fair. Don't always Dtilt. You can hold down and grab her weak ending parts of her dash attack. Practice neutral only with other peaches to learn more.
Dr Peepee
I'm having trouble figuring out how fast I should be playing Marth, is there anything wrong with playing Marth fast? I don't want to leave many openings for my opponent, and I want to keep pressure on my opponent as much as possible while moving in accordance to them, but I don't want to be completely reliant on feints or fake-outs, but I want to waste as little time as possible in my game.
There are a few different things here:
Marth is not a spacie and he is not Falcon. He's not necessarily built for speed. He's built for control. Now if you want to use him to be fast you can, but you still have to follow the rules and know when you can and cannot be fast.
Doing many inputs can distract you from actually watching what's going on in the match. If you practice enough setups you can mitigate this to an extent but whether you can fully nullify it may depend on just how fast you want to go.
Not dropping frames when doing basic tech is very desirable. That doesn't mean you should always do it, but you should be able to do it. Much like raising your tempo when possible as a good strategy, you also have to hit your tech with little to no frame drops as a strategy. How often you do these things and whether they're a good idea in a given situation will vary by opponent, conditioning, and perhaps most importantly what you yourself prefer.
Finally, leaving openings will occur no matter what you do. Azen played slow but beat everyone. Ken played fast and beat everyone. Everyone wants to be fast now but that does not mean being fast all the time is the only way.
Basically, no there is nothing wrong with being fast with Marth unless you break his rules, deviate from your own preferences, don't have practiced tech, or ignore the nuances of a given situation.
Chesstiger2612
Smash Lord
Dr Peepee
When shadowboxing, would you recommend to focus on one character and simulate what you would do in their situation or on both characters at the same time?
I thought that focusing on both could be helpful because it is challenging, helps the understanding of the entire situation and since you only have part of your attention on your choices it could also be good practice for situations where you can't focus that well and have to rely on your B game.
On the other hand, it could also be somewhat of an information flooding where it is unclear if much learning takes place, and it could limit the depth at which you look at situations if you watch the match in real-time for the same reason.
Is it a case of the more "advanced" practice method only making sense if you developed a high enough processing speed by getting accustomed to the game more and more, and being hurtful before that point?
It's both, but not really at the same time. It's like a back and forth between the two.
If you move in(breaching threatening range), the opponent will likely respond. So you guess/use conditioning to assume their response and then adjust back and usually you think there's a hit there. You play it out in your mind until a hit happens or until an outplay feels clear to you and then immediately return to neutral again to practice rapid decision making and thinking of how the opponent will adapt.
If you move in(breaching threatening range), the opponent will likely respond. So you guess/use conditioning to assume their response and then adjust back and usually you think there's a hit there. You play it out in your mind until a hit happens or until an outplay feels clear to you and then immediately return to neutral again to practice rapid decision making and thinking of how the opponent will adapt.
Lately I feel that the quality of my gameplay is determined mostly by how strongly I want to play and practice. This makes it hard for me to consistently practice well and perform well in tournament. Is there any way to minimize this in order to keep growing as a player? If no then how can I keep myself motivated to perform at my peak ability?
Thank you for that answer. Super super appreciate it.
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
Do you have any insight on how to improve certain parts of your game without tunnel visioning on that aspect? Or if I were to phrase this question differently, how do you like to code new ideas/improvements into your actual gameplay in a quick, effective way... particularly without losing yourself in the pitfall of thinking too much?
One of the struggles I have, I think, is that I try to force improvement a little too much by thinking hard about what I'm doing...my results have been improving over the last year or two, and there are times where I feel like my play is at a very good place, and I can beat or hang with top 25-50 players.
However, I kinda run into problems whenever I try to recreate or improve upon that level of play. Like... when I feel like I'm playing great, I try to pay attention to how it feels and what exactly I'm doing right..... and then I try to recreate that feel and recreate what I'm doing right the next time I play, but I sometimes end up playing a lot worse and a lot more rigid as a result.
And a similar thing kinda happens when I try to implement new improvements. I regularly review my own vods, take notes, and theorycraft improvements to make in my punish and neutral game. After I spent a weekend at the Summit house, I spent most of my Greyhound ride back scribbling down notes about how and why to play ground game better. I grinded out those ideas, and definitely got better as a result, but I still find that I sometimes find myself deviating from them when my mind wanders, but on the flip-side, when I think about these ideas too much, my ability to execute them sometimes deteriorates.
So yeah, that was kind of a mouthful. Basically, I feel like my cycle of improvement is kinda inefficient. I can theorycraft new ideas, grind them out, and improve, but I find myself too-often going into a cycle where I overthink the idea, play bad, and then play better again some other time.... I would greatly like to remove the part where I play really bad LOL
p.s. I've read the Inner Game of Tennis, so I know most of what's in that book, kinda wanted to see if you had any newer insight
One of the struggles I have, I think, is that I try to force improvement a little too much by thinking hard about what I'm doing...my results have been improving over the last year or two, and there are times where I feel like my play is at a very good place, and I can beat or hang with top 25-50 players.
However, I kinda run into problems whenever I try to recreate or improve upon that level of play. Like... when I feel like I'm playing great, I try to pay attention to how it feels and what exactly I'm doing right..... and then I try to recreate that feel and recreate what I'm doing right the next time I play, but I sometimes end up playing a lot worse and a lot more rigid as a result.
And a similar thing kinda happens when I try to implement new improvements. I regularly review my own vods, take notes, and theorycraft improvements to make in my punish and neutral game. After I spent a weekend at the Summit house, I spent most of my Greyhound ride back scribbling down notes about how and why to play ground game better. I grinded out those ideas, and definitely got better as a result, but I still find that I sometimes find myself deviating from them when my mind wanders, but on the flip-side, when I think about these ideas too much, my ability to execute them sometimes deteriorates.
So yeah, that was kind of a mouthful. Basically, I feel like my cycle of improvement is kinda inefficient. I can theorycraft new ideas, grind them out, and improve, but I find myself too-often going into a cycle where I overthink the idea, play bad, and then play better again some other time.... I would greatly like to remove the part where I play really bad LOL
p.s. I've read the Inner Game of Tennis, so I know most of what's in that book, kinda wanted to see if you had any newer insight
There are probably two ways to do this off the top of my head. The first is to remember the feelings you felt when you were motivated and connect to the thoughts that generated the feelings to change your current focus. The other is to talk to people who are motivated in the way you want to be and continue allowing yourself to be influenced by them.
So if I'm reading this right, you know what in the game to do but you wrap yourself up in conscious thought about it after you get a good result, is this right?
If so, then it is a common problem in a way. When people succeed they begin overthinking everything since they want to hold onto the success instead of build on it. However, there is a flip side to this. Conscious thought, rigorous thought, can only be applied to your new ideas to build upon them. How do we resolve this conflict? We allow the thought to settle and begin asking new questions of our new ideas instead of consistently trying to make old results happen. I've noticed in my own training when I only try to do what I know works or recreate something from before, I pay too much attention to myself and not the opponent and the flowing of the match. When I switch my focus to learning new things or trusting myself to apply old things, even if I forget sometimes things go better. I can relearn quickly since I am open to it. So in your play, trust yourself and be observant like before at Summit. In your theorycrafting/training, ask questions and try to build on what you already have instead of only holding on to what you already have.
A final note is you should try to recreate thoughts/lifestyle habits that you had going into productive days. You always want to be in a productive state and there are steps you can follow to get to that. You have to learn what these are for you and also keep your mind focused on learning like I talked about before for it to work. It can be done though! I hope this answers your question.