Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Dr Peepee]

Ones I like include:

-dash forward WD back(mixed with WD down instead)

-dash away dash in Dtilt(mixed with Fair)

-dash forward SH in place(better when opponent is shielding or cornered)

-SH in DJ away rising double Fair(for platform/vertically oriented opponents, this can have a lot of variation too)

vs Falco a lot of what you have to practice involves fighting lasers so you have to have a cpu shooting to practice it more. And then of course you'll have to adjust all of these in frequency depending on opponent character. I didn't do most of these with any character in mind I just did ones I thought of right away that I practice.

 

[V]

Dr Peepee I have a question about aerial drift. I was watching a GF set between M2K and Hbox recently and noticed that M2K does a lot of instant double jumps to position himself and my first question is if there's any reason why that is preferable to short hops or full hops? My second question is in general what match ups is aerial drift preferable for positioning over dash dancing and also what match ups is aerial drift almost always worse than dash dancing for positioning?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee I have a question about aerial drift. I was watching a GF set between M2K and Hbox recently and noticed that M2K does a lot of instant double jumps to position himself and my first question is if there's any reason why that is preferable to short hops or full hops? My second question is in general what match ups is aerial drift preferable for positioning over dash dancing and also what match ups is aerial drift almost always worse than dash dancing for positioning?

He's trying to rise up quickly and get to a position where he can FF quickly to punish as well. I don't like it nearly as much as he does since if you get caught at all you're without a double jump.

Using moves is more preferable against ICs and worse characters generally(Ganon is one exception to this). Using movement is better vs better characters generally.

 

[V]

Also Dr Peepee I have a question about using dtilt out of dash dance. Is there a big difference between waiting for the dash animation to end before dtilting and wave dashing down/back into dtilt?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Also Dr Peepee I have a question about using dtilt out of dash dance. Is there a big difference between waiting for the dash animation to end before dtilting and wave dashing down/back into dtilt?

It's a frame or two difference I believe, and also you can vary distance more with WD. In general the visual and audio cues are different too which is useful.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Dr Peepee
What do you think about The Moon in the Marth v Fox matchup? I thought his set against Leffen at Beast 7 was impressive.
My first impression was that I dislike some of the jumps at high range and his play by the edge is risky a lot of the time, and I liked the way he uses retreating fair and nair at low range and as OoS option, and his ways of playing around CCing.

How do you think should Marth deal with Fox having the platforms as shelter (top platform escape works in the majority of cases, and side platforms are annoying as long as Fox can ASDI+slide-off up-tilt/air after being up-thrown)? My idea was to not engage as much there and prefer grabbing in the center until that threshold is passed (pressuring the corners with movement and an occasional down-tilt), and as soon as top platform DI is possible, shift the balance slightly towards walling hitboxes (fair, nair) in the center and grabs on the sides. By shifting the balance, I mean not to stop doing something altogether and replace it with another move, but to adjust the mixup ratio. I'm not sure if that would work out in practice...

 

[Dr Peepee]

In the first 20 seconds I counted 5 things I really disliked about Moon's play vs Fox so I stopped watching. He has great moments but I don't prefer him as a template for Marth in any matchup besides maybe ICs.

If your second paragraph refers to punish, there are ways to punish Fox on the side platform even with ASDI down. You can Utilt/Fsmash/DJ regrab them, among other options on smaller stages. If they can DI to the top platform I tend to really dislike that and would rather opt for any other throw since they can usually get out as they're often teching well before you can get there/can get out after one hit since you had to overextend quickly to hit them. You can organize yourself to grab more in the center if you want, but the only times I think you should try to avoid grabbing if you can get it are times Fox can slip off a platform and also edge cancel from an Fthrow/Dthrow. Tech chasing on the ground or platforms is just something to be grinded out imo, but if you want your core gameplan to go for it less to reduce variance I don't have a big problem with that, which is kind of what you were suggesting.

 

[lokt]

yo pp, which of your sets vs fox and vs marth do you think you played best in/are best to study? I feel like you do some new stuff (e.g. vs opponents on platforms) in your later videos like at genesis, even though your not playing up to your standards.

 

[V]

Last question for now Dr Peepee , from mid tier and lower are there any match up specifics or character gimmicks to be aware of before a match or can they all be played straight forward? I'm mostly concerned with characters that are rarely played but can jank people if they're unaware of something.

 

[Dr Peepee]

yo pp, which of your sets vs fox and vs marth do you think you played best in/are best to study? I feel like you do some new stuff (e.g. vs opponents on platforms) in your later videos like at genesis, even though your not playing up to your standards.

Vs Marth probably Sktar 3 and Apex 2014 vs M2K. Vs Fox....for everything put together then game 4 vs Mango at MLG 2014, for mostly neutral watch Apex 2015 late rounds. I still haven't given a set-wide performance vs Fox I'm super happy with and I'm only kind of alright with my Marth matches but what I've given is an okay spread.

Last question for now Dr Peepee , from mid tier and lower are there any match up specifics or character gimmicks to be aware of before a match or can they all be played straight forward? I'm mostly concerned with characters that are rarely played but can jank people if they're unaware of something.

Mmmm I'm thinking of some examples like Luigi gimmicking you with throws(you just need to hold away) but if you can get into a zone where you can hit them with Fair/Dtilt and they can't hit you then you're alright.

 

[Blatant J]

Whats the use of that sticky dash movement (the wd back tap dash other direction), is it just supposed to get your opponent to flinch with an option in response to your dash startup frames?

 

[Tee ay eye]

^It used to be called Cactus dashing back in 07, until Cactuar had to go out and talk a lot about some other new-ish combination of movements in the last year or two

I feel like PP uses it pretty well, since I feel like I've stolen the application of this technique a lot from him. Sometimes it's hard to find angles to threaten with run in dtilt with Marth when you're kinda close to your opponent because his dash forward dtilt is long to a point of being kinda unwieldy (which is why it's great to do WD back, SH back, and WD down out of your dash forward a lot of the time), but WD back -> cactus dash forward dtilt is really helpful IMO for finding windows to run in and threaten to poke your opponent

 

[ElectricBlade]

Hello PP! My question for you is, when you start to break down a match up what should you do, or rather what are your goals when breaking down the match up. Once you have broken down the basics of the match up how do you begin to make it more advanced? If you any examples of each it would be great.

 

[Fex13]

Last question for now Dr Peepee , from mid tier and lower are there any match up specifics or character gimmicks to be aware of before a match or can they all be played straight forward? I'm mostly concerned with characters that are rarely played but can jank people if they're unaware of something.

avoid yoshi's dtilt.

 

[Phan7om]

Yo! My question for PP, or anyone here who can help really, is what should I be looking for in my opponent to get the most out of WD back/DD grab(or whatever)?

From what I know, these are used to move out of the opponent's range in order to quickly retaliate with a punish. Problem is, I often find myself doing this in neutral with little to no purpose than just to do it because "its good". The opponent only seems to bite occasionally, which almost feels like luck, and still I often fail to punish because it seems very random. I tell myself to react to the opponent's dash-ins or jumps/SHFF approaches, but Im not sure if this is completely correct since I have to react very quickly from certain ranges... and if Im too far, the opponent doesnt feel pressured. I tried searching this thread for an answer but from a glance nothing seemed to fit with my situation. Any help is appreciated, thanks!

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hello PP! My question for you is, when you start to break down a match up what should you do, or rather what are your goals when breaking down the match up. Once you have broken down the basics of the match up how do you begin to make it more advanced? If you any examples of each it would be great.

The easiest way to do it is to look at when someone gets hit and try to figure out why. It isn't always obvious in the beginning but is more understandable after spending time working on it.

Yo! My question for PP, or anyone here who can help really, is what should I be looking for in my opponent to get the most out of WD back/DD grab(or whatever)?

From what I know, these are used to move out of the opponent's range in order to quickly retaliate with a punish. Problem is, I often find myself doing this in neutral with little to no purpose than just to do it because "its good". The opponent only seems to bite occasionally, which almost feels like luck, and still I often fail to punish because it seems very random. I tell myself to react to the opponent's dash-ins or jumps/SHFF approaches, but Im not sure if this is completely correct since I have to react very quickly from certain ranges... and if Im too far, the opponent doesnt feel pressured. I tried searching this thread for an answer but from a glance nothing seemed to fit with my situation. Any help is appreciated, thanks!

Only move as much as needed. You're right that moving just to move is worthless and you're just distracting yourself, which is why punishes feel "random." Keep it simple. Dash forward WD back to see if they bite and you can grab or dash grab in response. Try to structure your dashes so you're always either pushing in or moving away and chunking the dashes, or anything really, into 2-3 action strings. It's much easier to keep track of what you're doing then and you don't get lost in mindless tech. Plus it's something you can practice.

 

[Kopaka]

The easiest way to do it is to look at when someone gets hit and try to figure out why. It isn't always obvious in the beginning but is more understandable after spending time working on it.

Only move as much as needed. You're right that moving just to move is worthless and you're just distracting yourself, which is why punishes feel "random." Keep it simple. Dash forward WD back to see if they bite and you can grab or dash grab in response. Try to structure your dashes so you're always either pushing in or moving away and chunking the dashes, or anything really, into 2-3 action strings. It's much easier to keep track of what you're doing then and you don't get lost in mindless tech. Plus it's something you can practice.

So you take an idea any idea, like "I need to not give up this position vs Falco" or "I need to edgeguard now" and bring it down to a small amount of action strings and pay close attention to how each string can help your purpose (Or not help) instead of wandering aimlessly. As philosophical as it sounds, I at least find that there's complexity in simplicity like that, and a lot of discipline to train that way, which lends respect to those who do it well at a high level.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah that's more or less it. I never said it was easy, and to understand it is very complicated, but having a reasonable end goal like this streamlines the process.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

What kind of technological novelties would advance the metagame in your opinion?
I think the stat measuring system used in HTC Throwdown and Summit 4 has some potential, although I think the attributes that were measured weren't the ones which would be most useful for theorycrafting. With a bit of fine-tuning, it should be possible to compare how different strategies fare against each other and maybe gain some new insights.
The same could be said about a strong AI in my opinion, it would be very helpful for players that are in regions with small scenes (although Netplay is already helping in that case). I imagine though it wouldn't be too helpful for top players because everything that the AI can do has to be understood well enough to implement it, so it wouldn't be at the cutting edge of the meta (unless it learns by itself, but there might be technical limitations to that).

 

[Blatant J]

How do you choose between dashback and wd back in neutral?

 

[V]

I have two questions.

1. Is it worth having a pocket fox for puffs that aren't Hbox or should I not divide my energy and just learn the MU with Marth?

2. At lower levels I'm finding that when I stick to general MU dos and don'ts that they don't necessarily work when the opponent doesn't know the MU either. I find sometimes that in these situations it's ok to do suboptimal things if they're simpler to execute and they aren't adapting. My question is in this situation is it better to strictly play the MU or to play to the player? For example, double fair > fsmash keeps working, do you take advantage of that for free or do you stick with the more complex DD>grab punishes?

 

[Dr Peepee]

How do you choose between dashback and wd back in neutral?

Look at their properties and how others use it and decide.

I have two questions.

1. Is it worth having a pocket fox for puffs that aren't Hbox or should I not divide my energy and just learn the MU with Marth?

2. At lower levels I'm finding that when I stick to general MU dos and don'ts that they don't necessarily work when the opponent doesn't know the MU either. I find sometimes that in these situations it's ok to do suboptimal things if they're simpler to execute and they aren't adapting. My question is in this situation is it better to strictly play the MU or to play to the player? For example, double fair > fsmash keeps working, do you take advantage of that for free or do you stick with the more complex DD>grab punishes?

1. Marth wrecks Puff so I definitely don't think that's a good idea.

2. You take the freebies but keep in mind the possibilities for change so your mind is still looking for them when you play other opponents.

 

[bboss]

1. Marth wrecks Puff so I definitely don't think that's a good idea.

What gives Marth the advantage? (other than spacing / tippers)

 

[Blatant J]

Look at their properties and how others use it and decide.

I guess wd back allows you to maintain the way you are facing in exchange for the cost of more lag? So I guess you often wd back when you expect to have to d tilt.

 

[Taytertot]

I guess wd back allows you to maintain the way you are facing in exchange for the cost of more lag? So I guess you often wd back when you expect to have to d tilt.

wavedash back also allows you to space your self differently. you can dash into a position but you stuck with only the options available during a dash until the whole dash animation ends and you go back to standing so in those situations it can be preferable to wavedash. wavedashing doesnt however allow you to adjust your position until the whole wavedash is complete so its generally preferable to use dash back if you expect/intend to continue or change your movement quickly. wavedashing allows you more availability to grounded options like jab/tilts/smash attacks specials etc. though. wavedashing can be done at different lengths if you dont want to change your spacing very much (which you can dash for but the full dash animation last longer then a wavedash).

these properties are very important when deciding to do one or the other but this is by no means an all inclusive list.

 

[Dr Peepee]

What gives Marth the advantage? (other than spacing / tippers)

Hits harder, outranges Puff and moves faster than her. Puff might edgeguard Marth better than vice versa but it doesn't compensate for the rest.

I guess wd back allows you to maintain the way you are facing in exchange for the cost of more lag? So I guess you often wd back when you expect to have to d tilt.

Yeah you're on the right track

 

[Zorcey]

Dr Peepee Do you think it's worth it to spend time solo practicing the other high tiered characters to develop a better understanding of their tools? And maybe playing Marth/X matchups as the other character to broaden your perspective? Or do you think any time with the game is better invested in practicing and playing just Marth?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I think it's extremely valuable to play to learn the other character. You can but don't have to practice them. If you do, you learn different results for similar inputs(dash length going from Marth to Falco is hilarious for example). Regardless it's super valuable to play other characters to learn how they think. This is different than making them a full on practiced secondary, which I tend to discourage since I don't think Marth needs it.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I think the usual recommendation against playing multiple characters for non-top-players is a guideline for tournament matches. If you switch around in tournament, you run the risk of avoiding playing the matchups you need to learn the most, and getting into a mindset of secondary characters as plan B instead of adapting.
Playing other characters in friendlies or doing match analysis on their gameplay is vital in building up game understanding in my opinion.

 

[CallMeMars]

Falco questions for PP:
1.) How do I properly study/learn the neutral game. I feel my moves are a bit too random and don't have enough thought put into them. I get opened up very easily vs sheik/marth/peach in close range situations that I feel like im guessing on who has the advantage.

2.) What are the best learning styles/strategies/techniques to learn Falco. I think my biggest problem is that when I watch matches I see only what things are good or what is bad. I don't see why's or how they were able to do something (mostly referring to reaction or read on the last part) unless it is blatantly obvious. What are your tips to learn a matchup more in depth? I saw your comment above about asking why someone got hit. Are there any more analysis tips?

3.) Do you have any tips on breaking habits? I can recognize that something is bad and I shouldn't do it, but in game I don't think as clearly, and I seemingly will do the same thing no matter how many times i try to kick it, before I remember that its not a good idea.

4.) Do you have any recommendations on the kind of matches a player that struggles at low level locals should look at? I want to only watch your (ppmd) games but against what kind of player? Should I study you against people my level maybe in pools? Players you destroy outside of top 20? Games against the Gods?

5.) Will I improve the quickest if I only play Falco? I've switched around in different matchups before but I'm starting to feel as I would get so much better as a player if I properly learned the match-up and my flaws in it.

6.) Any other tips you can give to an up and coming Falco main that struggles at locals?

 

[Kaoak]

How does M2K get away with spending so much time near the ledge, on the ledge, or in the air?

I asked you this question quite a while ago and you said

Short answer: because he practices there more than anyone else and prefers it. Longer answer includes specifics so if you're curious about those then bring em up.

I'm bringing em up, how in the world does M2K get away with intentionally putting himself into positions where I die 90% of the time, such as being cornered on the ledge, and manage to transform that into an advantageous position? Please give specifics.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Falco questions for PP:
1.) How do I properly study/learn the neutral game. I feel my moves are a bit too random and don't have enough thought put into them. I get opened up very easily vs sheik/marth/peach in close range situations that I feel like im guessing on who has the advantage.

2.) What are the best learning styles/strategies/techniques to learn Falco. I think my biggest problem is that when I watch matches I see only what things are good or what is bad. I don't see why's or how they were able to do something (mostly referring to reaction or read on the last part) unless it is blatantly obvious. What are your tips to learn a matchup more in depth? I saw your comment above about asking why someone got hit. Are there any more analysis tips?

3.) Do you have any tips on breaking habits? I can recognize that something is bad and I shouldn't do it, but in game I don't think as clearly, and I seemingly will do the same thing no matter how many times i try to kick it, before I remember that its not a good idea.

4.) Do you have any recommendations on the kind of matches a player that struggles at low level locals should look at? I want to only watch your (ppmd) games but against what kind of player? Should I study you against people my level maybe in pools? Players you destroy outside of top 20? Games against the Gods?

5.) Will I improve the quickest if I only play Falco? I've switched around in different matchups before but I'm starting to feel as I would get so much better as a player if I properly learned the match-up and my flaws in it.

6.) Any other tips you can give to an up and coming Falco main that struggles at locals?

Could you ask this in my Falco thread please?

How does M2K get away with spending so much time near the ledge, on the ledge, or in the air?

I asked you this question quite a while ago and you said

I'm bringing em up, how in the world does M2K get away with intentionally putting himself into positions where I die 90% of the time, such as being cornered on the ledge, and manage to transform that into an advantageous position? Please give specifics.

None of that was specific. What kind of position? vs what characters? What stages? What percent is he at and his opponent when he seems to get the most off of it? Until I get specifics such as these and actual situations I can only speak generally.

M2K does well at the edge because he practices it a lot and knows how people try to beat him there so he feels comfortable in the reduced simplicity. He swats them away if he's on the edge and they come in or he drops and up-Bs as one mixup in case they try to wait out the Fair.

 

[Blatant J]

I don't really use nair in my combos until the end to send them offstage, is incorporating it just a matter of % knowledge?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah more or less. Nair is great at low percent vs floaties and only at mid percents or kinda high to combo vs FF'ers. It takes some time to learn.

 

[Zorcey]

Dr Peepee I figure you understand this better than anyone lol: how do you deal with regional burnout? I've kind of accelerated beyond the level of people in my area (and it's not exactly saturated with players to begin with), and I'm starting to develop mindset issues when playing with others where I'm either getting lazy or switching to low-tiers to give myself a challenge. (Also, it's become a lot harder to get people to play with me in the first place, but I guess that's a separate issue. I would use more netplay but there are logistical issues that keep me from using it much.)

I think these are bad habits I've developed with friendlies, and I was wondering if you have any advice to get me back on track? And beyond that if you think the shift I've taken into spending most of my time in solo practice and analysis is okay for further improvement? At what point would you say someone needs more friendlies to test ideas and keep growing in the game?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I would set goals for things to work on when I played. I wouldn't be playing to win but playing to try out this combo setup, or this move in this position, or if I could tech chase this way, and so on. Occasionally you put it together with your main gameplan to try and win and see how it feels, but mostly focus on learning. Sometimes when I want to play seriously vs weaker players I just play as hard as I can and I take serious note of whenever I get hit since that must be a big hole in my game if I'm still getting exposed there despite the skill gap. Maybe I was just careless when I had a big lead, but that matters in tourney. Maybe things got too routine so I got lazy, so I need to experiment more. Maybe I lunge in a particular spot I shouldn't, and so on.

You can actually weight analysis/practice higher than friendlies for improvement and there's no problem. You still need friendlies to test out ideas, and eventually you will probably need to seek out stronger players, but doing it the way you're saying isn't bad at all.

 

[Timtheguy]

Hey PP I'm a solo marth main and sometimes I get into the same habits when it comes to neutral. I find myself spamming dtilt and rising fair against spacies and as a result end up getting punished for them. Do you have any tips for me in order to keep my options mixed up in neutral?

 

[Dr Peepee]

You could stand to do more pivot grab against them. Otherwise your options are fine but you're likely being too predictable. Try slowing down sometimes and seeing if you have other openings.

 

[Taytertot]

Hey PP I'm a solo marth main and sometimes I get into the same habits when it comes to neutral. I find myself spamming dtilt and rising fair against spacies and as a result end up getting punished for them. Do you have any tips for me in order to keep my options mixed up in neutral?

i think the thing that is often overlooked in terms of the "common neutral options" is that while you dont really need to be using other options to play neutral well, you do, however, need to change your pacing and rhythm. as a musician myself (though i could certainly stand to actually focus in on this idea more) ive had to learn about the importance of these concepts. if youre playing a 4 beat measure you can have just four drum taps or you could use two taps with empty space between them because the empty space is still within itself, part of the rhythm. on top of that you can double the number of taps.

in smash using these kinds of ideas can looked at similarly. the empty space of your attack rhythm can just be you waiting in a situation where you might normally throw out another attack. the importance of waiting is to show that your opponents actions can, though not necessarily do, effect your own actions. in other words they have to fear that them running straight at you could result in you throwing out an attack, but by waiting sometimes you also teach them that they cant just bait something out of you every time. now i dont mean to say that you shouldnt react at all to them intruding on your space but that your answer to that intrusion isnt to always throw out an attack preemptively.

on top of these ideas is something that doesnt come up in music often which is that you can change the measure of your rhythm. changing from 4 4 measures to 5 5 in a song will sound really weird but changing that in your gameplay will result in people knowing what you intend to do (dtilt/rising fair/pivot grab) but not know when you intend to do it.

i hope this holds some insight for you, but i feel that i may have written it in a confusing, unordered fashion so let me know if i need to clarify any of this.

 

[maclo4]

PP,
I am having trouble against this falco at my college who I play with often. Hes very aggressive and good at pressuring shield, so my question is where is a good distance to position myself against aggro falcos? and when is it good to use shield? because it feels pretty dangerous to shield when you know the other player is great at shield pressure