Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Raycu]

If marth is trying to bait an aerial with d-tilt and I know this, what are my possible options to counter?

 

[A_Reverie]

I've been relatively unsuccessful when it comes to improvement lately, I've been playing for a year and just started incorporating regular tech practice. I've noticed improvements in stuff like ledgedashes and shai drops. However my neutral has suffered in particular since I'm used to going for only punishes with grabs and RC d-tilts. I've been trying to use wavedash d-tilts since one of my main problems against players better than me is they recognise that my dash dance isn't really threatening and that I don't always have the space to enter run. Do you think it is ok or necessary to take a few steps back to take some forward?

P.S I think another reason my overall play has suffered is I use a lot of my focus on the new aspects I try to incorporate into my play, rather than the things I was better at.

Sounds like you're having spacing issues? I think I can give you some things to think about that can help.

I find a lot of Marths play too close. You have to consider that during dash dance your fastest, safe ground option (wavedash d-tilt) is pretty slow, so you need space in order to put it out with the correct spacing. Aiming a wavedash properly is harder than people realize, especially for Marth where the WORST spacing ends up being where your swing misses by a tiny amount. This is one reason why PPMD has said one of the most important rules of Marth is not to swing too much. You want to minimize how many swings you put out at a range where your whiff places you in the most immediate danger. Marth's generally high end lag makes this extremely important.

You'll find your solution in practicing where you aim the movements that help deliver your attacks. For D-tilt, that's wavedash. For aerials, that's your jump. I think jumping correctly is one of the hardest things about Melee. Aiming wavedashes is really hard too. You mention having issues with a weak dash dance and I think it's because you aren't acknowledging your current position compared to your opponent and how it can influence the way you should aim your jumps/wavedashes. If you wavedash forward and you don't have room to do it you'll either get hit before your D-tilt comes out, or you'll end up getting grabbed after hitting too close.

Maintaining a space where you can use your maximum reach is important as well. You want to be in a position where you can threaten from afar with a wide wavedash D-tilt because that's what can make Marth so scary. It'll also help you because attacking from a reach makes it harder for you to "fall in" with a swing and end up landing/sliding too close to someone. Work on finding this range and staying in it. This will make people have to reach further out of their comfort zone to hit you. Aim your jumps and wavedashes as positions change so you can adjust and try to pull back into this range. Pay close attention to Marth's traction, especially when performing aerials and running d-tilts. He'll slide out of position if you're not careful.

Recognizing the way a person plays can help you figure out which movements can help you. An aggressive Fox that runs in a lot can be walled out with retreating movments (wavedash back, fading pack with jumps.) A player that tends to stay outside to bait whiffs and missteps can be adapted to with extended, reaching moves (running d-tilt.) The name of the game is to attack from the safest, most effective range possible. You've probably heard some spacie players say "that was a bad N-air" when talking about hitting shields. You can grade your swings in a similar manner. Pay attention to how you aim and figure out which movements you can adjust to make each one better.

 

[L33thal]

I know this is an oversimplification of neutral, but for the sake of discussion, I generally see landing hits as a mix of two categories: (1) reads/good guesses, and (2) conditioning/mindgames. My question is, what way of thinking or mindset is good for a Marth main to get into in order to develop the influence their moves have on their opponents?

My take on this is, mindgames depend on the other player. Every player has their own biases and respond or try to mix-up in different ways. We want to constantly get a read on how the other player thinks from what they do in neutral. However, it can be observed that stage control somewhat "objectively" gives Marth a better chance at winning in neutral against his opponent since it plays into Marth's strength of covering a lot of space. At the same time, trying to get stage control too much can make this bias apparent to our opponents. So mixing up stage control, baiting, hard calls w/ approaches, etc. is necessary, but is there a good mindset for a Marth main to get into when playing to get the most on picking up on biases and using that to your advantage?

 

[A_Reverie]

I know this is an oversimplification of neutral, but for the sake of discussion, I generally see landing hits as a mix of two categories: (1) reads/good guesses, and (2) conditioning/mindgames. My question is, what way of thinking or mindset is good for a Marth main to get into in order to develop the influence their moves have on their opponents?

My take on this is, mindgames depend on the other player. Every player has their own biases and respond or try to mix-up in different ways. We want to constantly get a read on how the other player thinks from what they do in neutral. However, it can be observed that stage control somewhat "objectively" gives Marth a better chance at winning in neutral against his opponent since it plays into Marth's strength of covering a lot of space. At the same time, trying to get stage control too much can make this bias apparent to our opponents. So mixing up stage control, baiting, hard calls w/ approaches, etc. is necessary, but is there a good mindset for a Marth main to get into when playing to get the most on picking up on biases and using that to your advantage?

I think this will depend a lot on the individual. I myself put a lot of focus on center control and accuracy. I will rarely take a hard call and value it over a stable, centered stance. The mindset I put myself in puts most of my energy on spacing whichever swing I've chosen properly while keeping my mind ready to respond to whatever cue that occurs (on hit, on whiff) but how I choose which move to use is where I start to consider certain biases.

Marth has a natural bias toward grounded attacks since the most common style favors D-tilt, and most of his aerials can be used to interact with the ground to some extent. Because of this you'll usually see people wanting to try and deal with D-tilt and from there you can scope out how they intend to do so and adapt to it. I think it's rather matchup dependent. Fox and Falcon love to jump over it, so against them I'll mix in more aerials to intercept. Sheik likes to be defensive with crouch cancel and tries to outbox or pierce through with boost grab, so I'll stay more grounded and mixup my pace. You can choose to play straight around these methods or mix in baits and hard reads depending on your playstyle as long as you're aware how your attacks influence behavior. How do they react to your whiff? What about when you get that D-tilt spaced just right and rip into them with the tipper hitbox?

A little unrelated, but my favorite thing to do is watch how people respond to getting hit by D-tilt tipper. It's just a simple poke that does 10 damage but it's so fast and reaching and the IASA gives you a lot of control. It's like hitting them places an "Exposed" debuff on them for a second or so, allowing you to press forward and threaten. Even if you don't choose to attack again you are in control because the attack can displace them so abruptly and force behavior, giving you information.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

If marth is trying to bait an aerial with d-tilt and I know this, what are my possible options to counter?

If I understood you correctly, you are talking about beating d-tilt in Marth v Marth (?). You can nair over d-tilt, run up->CC the non-tipper->grab, or just stay outside and work with the frame advantage (among other options).
If you are talking about the situation where someone just d-tilted and want to know what they are likely to do next to counter that option, if you have put out enough threat by being close to them, they are more likely to do a commital option (attack, shield, ...), if not, they are pretty much free to use Marth's entire toolset. You have to collect information about the individual player to make good predictions in this case.

 

[Raycu]

If I understood you correctly, you are talking about beating d-tilt in Marth v Marth (?). You can nair over d-tilt, run up->CC the non-tipper->grab, or just stay outside and work with the frame advantage (among other options).
If you are talking about the situation where someone just d-tilted and want to know what they are likely to do next to counter that option, if you have put out enough threat by being close to them, they are more likely to do a commital option (attack, shield, ...), if not, they are pretty much free to use Marth's entire toolset. You have to collect information about the individual player to make good predictions in this case.

I'm more talking about dtilting to condition someone to jump over it and try and aerial. (Which is punishable with f-smash against low range moved and shield grab for high range moves that are placed badly) If someone is trying to get me to jump over their dtilt to counter with an attack how should I react?

 

[Kopaka]

Dr Peepee Are there ways Marth can flow people into his punish game that people aren't utilizing yet? Because his punish game is so dangerous, do you think its common for Marths to get too predictable in their setups, or try to force things? (If we want examples, lets say vs Sheik and Fox).

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee Are there ways Marth can flow people into his punish game that people aren't utilizing yet? Because his punish game is so dangerous, do you think its common for Marths to get too predictable in their setups, or try to force things? (If we want examples, lets say vs Sheik and Fox).

There certainly are. However they can sort of come with more risks than what we traditionally recommend. Some examples would be Fsmashing at low percent(you can get tech chases or juggles or edgeguards surprisingly well from this), utilt when opponent is cornered or coming in at low/percent or wd in utilt to cover in front and jumps, and you can use platforms more(shield drop/waveland) to get more tipper aerials to begin combos as some examples. These are of varying risk but I think they're all not so bad in their own right.

As for being predictable, I think that plagues Marth players quite badly. The solution I usually recommend isn't to necessarily start incorporating riskier strategies but to see when a particular way of doing something isn't working and (slightly) change it. Marth is not a character that has to get crazy to succeed, and even if you know he's going to do 1 of 2 things that doesn't really help prepare you very much.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I'm more talking about dtilting to condition someone to jump over it and try and aerial. (Which is punishable with f-smash against low range moved and shield grab for high range moves that are placed badly) If someone is trying to get me to jump over their dtilt to counter with an attack how should I react?

If they want to either use f-smash or shield, move in far enough in so they are in your threat zone, dash back and whiff-punish if they f-smashed. If they used shield, they will have to use an OoS option so you are in a good spot, if they continued to d-tilt the situation is neutral.
This method is applicable in general against all kinds of "standing" maneouvres, like tilts, smashes, or aerial in place. You just need to know the particular spacings and timings to avoid their hit and maximize frame advantage.

 

[ridemyboat]

PPMD + Umbreon + residents of smashboards, I feel like I'm not going about the Peach matchup the right way. I got ****ed by BMC yesterday. I fell apart by the second stock of the fd game, but getting completely destroyed while he spammed float cancelled aerials aside:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/128222493

Here's some low hanging fruit I can work on:

1. For float cancelled aerials, punish what they do after the aerial. It's usually going to be - jab, dash attack, grab, shield, or another fc aerial. There's startup for all of these, so I just need to anticipate it.

2. Tech chase better. Fair + nair can cover missed and tech in place if you time it right, figure out which one works better in each circumstance.

3. Keep them cornered at the ledge longer. Most of the percent should come from them trying to get back to center, not from forward airs connecting in neutral. Use dtilt, grab (often OoS) and dd to get them in the corner in the first place. Use aerials if they jump.

What do you think?

 

[Andrew Wiggin]

Hey PP, this is more of a general question about Melee but I am a Marth main. For about two years I was in a place where I could play people in Melee all the time, but in the last about half of a year I've moved to a place with a lot less of a scene. In this time I've studied the game a lot, and I think I have a pretty good understanding of the neutral game and it's mixups (or at least as good of an understanding as I'm going to get without playing people regularly). When I watch top level play now I can really see what's going through the player's minds and why they get hit when they did. But my problem is that even if I know this stuff it won't mean to much if I can't adapt mid match and read my opponent and their intentions. Is there a way that I can improve at this without access to other people? Thank you!

 

[Dr Peepee]

PPMD + Umbreon + residents of smashboards, I feel like I'm not going about the Peach matchup the right way. I got ****ed by BMC yesterday. I fell apart by the second stock of the fd game, but getting completely destroyed while he spammed float cancelled aerials aside:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/128222493

Here's some low hanging fruit I can work on:

1. For float cancelled aerials, punish what they do after the aerial. It's usually going to be - jab, dash attack, grab, shield, or another fc aerial. There's startup for all of these, so I just need to anticipate it.

2. Tech chase better. Fair + nair can cover missed and tech in place if you time it right, figure out which one works better in each circumstance.

3. Keep them cornered at the ledge longer. Most of the percent should come from them trying to get back to center, not from forward airs connecting in neutral. Use dtilt, grab (often OoS) and dd to get them in the corner in the first place. Use aerials if they jump.

What do you think?

Watched 30 seconds and would recommend you using SH to juggle/edgeguard more, not attacking in from really far away, and realizing you had them conditioned for your approach and to back off/take advantage. Also don't Fthrow dash attack unless Peach goes offstage at mid percent.

Hey PP, this is more of a general question about Melee but I am a Marth main. For about two years I was in a place where I could play people in Melee all the time, but in the last about half of a year I've moved to a place with a lot less of a scene. In this time I've studied the game a lot, and I think I have a pretty good understanding of the neutral game and it's mixups (or at least as good of an understanding as I'm going to get without playing people regularly). When I watch top level play now I can really see what's going through the player's minds and why they get hit when they did. But my problem is that even if I know this stuff it won't mean to much if I can't adapt mid match and read my opponent and their intentions. Is there a way that I can improve at this without access to other people? Thank you!

Yes and no. You can gain a lot of ideas and flexibility from visualizing, analysis, and shadowboxing. You still need people to test the end results of this on, but you don't need to do it super often if you're really dedicated.

 

[CursedKaiju]

How do you do the super quick clean downtilt? Like during the set versus ppu at bot5g

 

[lokt]

Watched 30 seconds and would recommend you using SH to juggle/edgeguard more, not attacking in from really far away, and realizing you had them conditioned for your approach and to back off/take advantage. Also don't Fthrow dash attack unless Peach goes offstage at mid percent.

What are the pros of using short hop versus full hop when juggling peach? It seems to me that full hopping is strictly superior if you have the time for it, though that's just my intuition.

 

[Dr Peepee]

How do you do the super quick clean downtilt? Like during the set versus ppu at bot5g

Practice

What are the pros of using short hop versus full hop when juggling peach? It seems to me that full hopping is strictly superior if you have the time for it, though that's just my intuition.

FH is better if she's really high up/some situations on DL. SH is better at mid and low heights because you can FF sooner and get back down and still DJ and attack and get a lot of vertical height.

 

[A_Reverie]

What are the pros of using short hop versus full hop when juggling peach? It seems to me that full hopping is strictly superior if you have the time for it, though that's just my intuition.

The biggest problem with full hop is that if you swing too early on the way up (especially with up air) and whiff you end up stuck in endlag without a fast way to land. On really high targets, I would only full hop if you can either swing and start falling right after or double jump into your swing (after which you can just fast fall.) Short hop gives you more control and is also really good for patrolling top platforms especially because of the double jump thing PP mentions. You can threaten them just by doing a short hop and drifting then respond to their choice by double jumping with your aerial. You get access to a ton of different timing mixups with this.

 

[capusa27]

Dr Peepee

What are your thoughts about dealing with a laser campy Fox? What sorts of changes should Marth make to the gameplan to combat the lasers from playing against a Fox that doesn't laser?

In addition, I know that you've complained about camping in general in the past (especially on Dreamland); how has your Dreamland opinion changed over time?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee

What are your thoughts about dealing with a laser campy Fox? What sorts of changes should Marth make to the gameplan to combat the lasers from playing against a Fox that doesn't laser?

In addition, I know that you've complained about camping in general in the past (especially on Dreamland); how has your Dreamland opinion changed over time?

Fox's lasers are pretty interesting in that they do damage, put him in lag, but don't stun you. So while Fox is shooting you get a manipulation and he also is influencing you to come in and gets damage in the meantime. If he's far away I just close a fair amount of space and see if he wants to intercept my approach. If I'm already kind of close and suspect a laser I may run in and Fair, or if I'm a bit closer I could even walk Fsmash it(they do not like this). So basically my goal is to get to a range where Fox can't get free damage and could take damage or lose a stock himself trying to get some free damage. A Fox that isn't lasering is one you can afford to play defensively from farther away against if you want and you have to worry more about their FH/platform/DD game more most likely.

I complained about that? huh. Well I don't mind camping/defensive play now. My main thought that I learned over experimenting over the years is you don't actually have to wait a long time to get a hit on defensive Fox on Dreamland. It might just be a few more seconds than you'd like. Once you realize that, you can start playing for position to set up the hit instead of going straight for the hit.

 

[Zorcey]

Dr Peepee I have (what I think is) a dumb problem with spotdodging during situations like during/following techchases. It's to the point where I almost feel like every moment my opponent is actionable becomes this 50/50 where I have to read whether they spotdodge or not. If I get a spotdodge read I can continue my punish, but if I miss it they get away or even hit me back because Marth's endlag is so relatively long.

I've tended to just let a lot of predictable spotdodges go and back off, but that I'm not punishing them annoys me and I want to figure out what my answer should be. I'm sure I'm making some stupid error when I miss them, but idk where. Is it just bad spacing? Or is it a decision-making thing?

 

[A_Reverie]

Dr Peepee I have (what I think is) a dumb problem with spotdodging during situations like during/following techchases. It's to the point where I almost feel like every moment my opponent is actionable becomes this 50/50 where I have to read whether they spotdodge or not. If I get a spotdodge read I can continue my punish, but if I miss it they get away or even hit me back because Marth's endlag is so relatively long.

I've tended to just let a lot of predictable spotdodges go and back off, but that I'm not punishing them annoys me and I want to figure out what my answer should be. I'm sure I'm making some stupid error when I miss them, but idk where. Is it just bad spacing? Or is it a decision-making thing?

Are you trying to tech chase with grab mostly? You can tech chase with an aerial or dtilt and then try a grab. Cover no spotdodge with the aerial/dtilt and then the grab will punish them if they do spotdodge. There will be times where you can definitely get a grab, it just takes a lot of practice to find the times you can and can't. This is why I'd recommend tech chasing with aerials/dtilt whenever you end up having to reach a bit further than you think you should with the grab.

 

[Signia]

I know this is an oversimplification of neutral, but for the sake of discussion, I generally see landing hits as a mix of two categories: (1) reads/good guesses, and (2) conditioning/mindgames. My question is, what way of thinking or mindset is good for a Marth main to get into in order to develop the influence their moves have on their opponents?

My take on this is, mindgames depend on the other player. Every player has their own biases and respond or try to mix-up in different ways. We want to constantly get a read on how the other player thinks from what they do in neutral. However, it can be observed that stage control somewhat "objectively" gives Marth a better chance at winning in neutral against his opponent since it plays into Marth's strength of covering a lot of space. At the same time, trying to get stage control too much can make this bias apparent to our opponents. So mixing up stage control, baiting, hard calls w/ approaches, etc. is necessary, but is there a good mindset for a Marth main to get into when playing to get the most on picking up on biases and using that to your advantage?

I know you probably don't want an answer from me, but if you're not using conditioning to inform your reads, then you're just guessing. The conditioning doesn't even have to be intentional or planned out, both players are always being conditioned, you just need to think about or intuit how past events have that done that. I don't see any drawback to doing that. "reads/good guesses" and "conditioning/mindgames" should be one in the same. Though you do say that it should be a mix of the two... do you mean that you don't how much of it should be blind but optimal guessing and how much effort should be put toward planning and conditioning? I guess that would depend on how much your opponent responds to conditioning. When I play players like M2Queen I honestly feel more comfortable because they are responding carefully to what I'm doing even though much worse players beat me just as easily.

The biggest problem with full hop is that if you swing too early on the way up (especially with up air) and whiff you end up stuck in endlag without a fast way to land. On really high targets, I would only full hop if you can either swing and start falling right after or double jump into your swing (after which you can just fast fall.) Short hop gives you more control and is also really good for patrolling top platforms especially because of the double jump thing PP mentions. You can threaten them just by doing a short hop and drifting then respond to their choice by double jumping with your aerial. You get access to a ton of different timing mixups with this.

I made a FB post in the Marth R&D group about this a couple months ago (which will be rewritten as a blog post with diagrams):

THE ART OF JUGGLING

TLDR: Shield stop under them, jump earlier than you might think and hit them with falling uairs as they fall toward you. Stay close to the ground or platforms when you're in the air to stay safe. Lead them off stage.

So Marth wrecks a lot of characters just by being below them, but somehow, they still make it down. Why? What's the best way making sure you never lose the exchange? What are they doing right when they manage to get down? I'm going to try and answer these questions.

Marth's Uair beats everything head to head, so it seems like it should always win, but there are a few cases where it doesn't:

1. They hit you before it comes out
2. They trade favorably
3. You do it too early
4. They move too far to the side

Sound familiar? The juggle situation is it's own kind of vertical footsies or "neutral game," except it's in your favor: they don't have the option to retreat or stay still except with an expendable double jump, and your hitboxes are more disjointed than theirs.

So if you let them down, depending on the character, it's because you timed and positioned the uair wrong.

Here's how I suggest you make it easier:

--------------------------------------------------------------

Time and position the jump so that you encounter them with as little upward momentum as possible, for a couple reasons. This slows it down just in case they try and surprise you by closing the distance when you jump. If both players move toward each other, they close the distance twice as fast as normal, making it difficult to react and time the attack properly.

Also, the closer you are to being able fastfall safely back to the ground or a platform, the safer your attack is. The ideal is that they fall into your falling uair. It's impossible to get through Marth's falling uair, it's a giant hitbox that's moving away from them, and even if they avoid that, there's still your utilt, Fsmash, or rising aerial to worry about. it's also very safe if you miss and you may net another guaranteed hit if it hits.

You also want to be as close to right below them as possible. If they are already drifting to the side, you should dash just past their current position. The reason is that Marth's uair is difficult to challenge directly, so they want to move to the side to get away. Shield stop before jumping to stop horizontal momentum. If they fool you with a sudden change in horizontal direction, like with a double jump, your momentum will put you out of position.

To stay close to the ground, you either want to short hop or full hop to a platform. Instant double jump for that middle height jump might be useful too.

If you jump too early, they have time to wait out your jump or move to the side. If you jump too late, you'll be rising right into them and your timing will have to be stricter and you're in worse position if you miss.

The key is to get a sense of the right height the enemy character needs to be before you choose to jump, based on how fast they fall. Other than their double jump, they only have their fast fall timing to vary where they will be in the near future behind the veil of reaction time.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you choose your jumping position, height and fastfall timing properly, there's little that many characters can do, but some have ways of handling it. Double jumps, fast fall speed, good downward hitboxes, and horizontal momentum can make it nearly impossible to consistently juggle a character.

Against fast fallers, they fall too fast so they have to be extremely high up for you to have time to get below them and jump early enough be coming down by the time they get to you. Their FF is too fast to react to, so you have to guess their timing. If they double jump at the right timing, you can't continue the juggle easily. If you stay close to the ground, as with this strategy, you won't be flat out punished, though.

Characters like Ganon who have good downward hitboxes are risky to challenge, but you can instead SH early just FF to bait them out.

Puff has enough horizontal momentum to sort aerial dash dance to throw off your below positioning, and can simply move to the side and beat you with a bair. You can still limit options if you execute this strategy well and mix it up.

Middle weights are where you'll see the most difference using this strategy. Even if they double jump, you can simply fast fall to the ground and follow them with another dash shieldstop SH.

Floaties will want to LRA+START and switch characters.

Final notes:

Three-platform stages complicate things. You have to see what platform they are trying to land on and aim to land there with the double jump. If they make it ambiguous by being positioned between the platforms, wavelanding off or platform dropping off the top platform to a low platform can work well.

Endless uairs doesn't do you much good. You want to lead them toward the edge of the stage, eventually offstage, without a double jump at high percent if possible, to secure an easy edgeguard. This can be done by staying slightly toward the side of center stage instead of right under them. Mixing in fairs will get the job done at high percent.

Basically do whatever jump height allows you to fall and hit ground or platform quickly after swinging, this can give you a second chance to swing, though on that second chance you won't necessarily have the luxury of doing a falling aerial due to lack of time.

 

[Signia]

Anyway what I came here for is feedback on my blog posts about Uthrow combos on spacies Dr Peepee

http://marthnerd.blogspot.com/2017/03/marths-uthrow-combos-on-fox-and-falco.html
http://marthnerd.blogspot.com/2017/03/marth-uthrow-combo-table-and-flowchart.html

 

[A_Reverie]

Signia I remember reading that. Excellent post, in particular:

Time and position the jump so that you encounter them with as little upward momentum as possible

This is a great way to explain it and something everyone should think about when they jump toward someone in ANY direction. That momentum that carries you through your swing is usually what gets you punished so you definitely want to minimize it on all types of jumps except if you specifically intend to cross up with something like rising f-air

Thanks for reminding me so I can post it in the Discord.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Dr Peepee I have (what I think is) a dumb problem with spotdodging during situations like during/following techchases. It's to the point where I almost feel like every moment my opponent is actionable becomes this 50/50 where I have to read whether they spotdodge or not. If I get a spotdodge read I can continue my punish, but if I miss it they get away or even hit me back because Marth's endlag is so relatively long.

I've tended to just let a lot of predictable spotdodges go and back off, but that I'm not punishing them annoys me and I want to figure out what my answer should be. I'm sure I'm making some stupid error when I miss them, but idk where. Is it just bad spacing? Or is it a decision-making thing?

Not PP but I'll try to answer:
If tipper kills, you can mix up between grab (to beat shield) and position correctly -> tipper f-smash (to beat spot dodge).
If they are at a percentage where tipper fair sets up for combos, you can do that instead, depending on the timing you might even have a frame advantage if they choose spot dodge, which allows you a mixup between second fair or FF land -> grab.
The "obvious" answer is to delay the grab so it beats the spot dodge. Instead of waiting before the grab, combine it with a bit of preceding movement appropriate in that situation, so you will also end up beating other options. An example would be doing the anti-spot dodge grab as a crossup, which avoids the "countergrab" and maybe some quick attacks.

You can also choose to techchase with other moves, depending on how your followups would look. In the general case (grab leads to combo, other hits don't), going for the grab mixup is preferable imo, but when the d-tilt leads to a decent edgeguard scenario it can be a good option.

Anyway what I came here for is feedback on my blog posts about Uthrow combos on spacies Dr Peepee

http://marthnerd.blogspot.com/2017/03/marths-uthrow-combos-on-fox-and-falco.html
http://marthnerd.blogspot.com/2017/03/marth-uthrow-combo-table-and-flowchart.html

I think this write-up is amazing.
Some remarks:
- Data on how this is affected by human reaction time would be nice. For example, it is at least unclear if deciding whether to turn around or not for the first regrabs can be done on reaction. Kadano expressed this here. It has to be discussed what reaction time should be assumed for combo guides, and what kind of visual differences in animation count as instantly distinguishable and which not.
- About up-tilt: If we look at the hitboxes, the 0e hitbox is a reliable combo tool. For one it prioritizes over the other ids, so it is relatively easy to hit (especially frame 8 as it is the first one that extends upward significantly), and hits faster than 3c while not being that much more horizontal in its angle, so you need less time to set up for it and can start it at lower %s than usual.
Mew2King often uses it from around 30% on (example).
It has to be looked at on a case-to-case basis but I think only going for the 3c hitbox limits the potential of the move.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee I have (what I think is) a dumb problem with spotdodging during situations like during/following techchases. It's to the point where I almost feel like every moment my opponent is actionable becomes this 50/50 where I have to read whether they spotdodge or not. If I get a spotdodge read I can continue my punish, but if I miss it they get away or even hit me back because Marth's endlag is so relatively long.

I've tended to just let a lot of predictable spotdodges go and back off, but that I'm not punishing them annoys me and I want to figure out what my answer should be. I'm sure I'm making some stupid error when I miss them, but idk where. Is it just bad spacing? Or is it a decision-making thing?

You can grab them before the spotdodge happens but you have to practice it a lot. Otherwise you can go for aerials since they're safe, give good damage, and if percent is mid to high they either knock down or up which can be good for followups. You may not be standing close enough to the tech spot or you haven't practiced it enough or you're doing needless movement which will distract you are my guesses.

Anyway what I came here for is feedback on my blog posts about Uthrow combos on spacies Dr Peepee

http://marthnerd.blogspot.com/2017/03/marths-uthrow-combos-on-fox-and-falco.html
http://marthnerd.blogspot.com/2017/03/marth-uthrow-combo-table-and-flowchart.html

It's okay, but I believe the CG is far more nuanced than this. I have learned that DI on the Utilt around 30+% and Uairs at mid and high percents matter greatly when punishing. Additionally, some slight DIs, while possible to pivot grab, are pretty hard to react to and you can just walk/turnaround grab them easier.

If I were to take my hypothetical CG guide one step further I would go on to add illegitimate followups that can give greater reward because Fox is DI'ing for standard follows. I would also have to add that this works best on FD and on other stages you will have to tech chase more, which means you can also influence their DI on Uthrow more as a mixup.

I think the simple version of this is alright and the nuance may not matter too much for most people, but if someone wants to have the full CG mapped out this falls short of that goal I believe.

 

[Signia]

I think this write-up is amazing.
Some remarks:
- Data on how this is affected by human reaction time would be nice. For example, it is at least unclear if deciding whether to turn around or not for the first regrabs can be done on reaction. Kadano expressed this here. It has to be discussed what reaction time should be assumed for combo guides, and what kind of visual differences in animation count as instantly distinguishable and which not.
- About up-tilt: If we look at the hitboxes, the 0e hitbox is a reliable combo tool. For one it prioritizes over the other ids, so it is relatively easy to hit (especially frame 8 as it is the first one that extends upward significantly), and hits faster than 3c while not being that much more horizontal in its angle, so you need less time to set up for it and can start it at lower %s than usual.
Mew2King often uses it from around 30% on (example).
It has to be looked at on a case-to-case basis but I think only going for the 3c hitbox limits the potential of the move.

Yeah I glazed over the chaingrabs, and I wasn't sure if I should repeat the bold claim Kadano makes when he basically turns the "guaranteed chaingrab" into a mixup (ambiguous crossup).

As for utilts, 0e has a 110 degree angle, so it's even easier for the opponent to escape followups than 3c (actually, I think 0c hits at the percents and DIs I say to use it, though "back hit utilt" doesn't specify this). In the example given, the opponent follows the 0e trajectory perfectly, so there was no DI, but toward DI, especially down and toward, would have caused an escape. That was the ideal DI and it didn't lead to much. Mew2King then did a soft fair at a percent and height that's too low for it to lead to a decent situation even if DI'd toward (tipper fair would have been ideal). It's easy to criticize a real time judgement by dissecting it after the fact, but the point is the tree of situations Mew2King tends to take the opponent don't seem that great. However, he makes up for this with his amazing edgeguards. Maybe it doesn't matter that he often ends his combos in DI'd away soft fairs if it ensures that they are offstage and forced into some kind mixup into death anyway, even if he guesses wrong on the fair / uair-or-fsmash mixup. The utilt seems like a completely unnecessary risk, though my solution, the pivot uair, hasn't proven itself. If it's a mixup whether you do 0c or 0e, I guess it isn't the best general rule to say only do 0c, though.

It's okay, but I believe the CG is far more nuanced than this. I have learned that DI on the Utilt around 30+% and Uairs at mid and high percents matter greatly when punishing. Additionally, some slight DIs, while possible to pivot grab, are pretty hard to react to and you can just walk/turnaround grab them easier.

If I were to take my hypothetical CG guide one step further I would go on to add illegitimate followups that can give greater reward because Fox is DI'ing for standard follows. I would also have to add that this works best on FD and on other stages you will have to tech chase more, which means you can also influence their DI on Uthrow more as a mixup.

I think the simple version of this is alright and the nuance may not matter too much for most people, but if someone wants to have the full CG mapped out this falls short of that goal I believe.

Fair enough, I didn't expect it to be that useful for top players. For regrabbing slight DIs, I'll admit I'd have no idea how to explain even if I had mastered the nuance of it.

As for adding "illegitimate followups," which I wouldn't consider illegitimate, just part of mixups, I spend a lot of the post trying to get rid of those and seeing if it's worth it. The last half of the post goes into mixups using fair that beats standard DI that would ruin your stage positioning. It otherwise doesn't seem worth it to me to go for things that might not work because what you get guaranteed seems good enough most of the time, especially when two-choice mixups in theory will cut your expected value by up to 50% (when have no read on your opponent). There has to be a limit to how many mixups are in your combo or else you're being way too ambitious with the read you have on your opponent. However, there are lots of places to go for that surprise mixup option, which is best kind of mixup, so I agree in that case.

I can't quite map it out completely due to the combinatorial explosion that occurs after you start including longer combos, but as I said it provides a solid base to build on if necessary. Oops, checking back, I didn't end up keeping that in.

It is indeed meant for FD but I will build on this for combos involving platform stages (which will include lots of mixups).

Here's the premise for how I'm going to analyze combos on platform stages: there are 9 distinct orientations with the platforms and the position at which you land your grab on three-platform stages. There's center stage, near-the-edge, under low platforms, under and to the side of low platforms, outer edge of low platform, inner edge of low platform, middle low platform, middle top platform, edge of top platform. They aren't perfectly distinct at every percent and their combo trees flow into each other, but conceiving the positions this way reduces the complexity of the conditions that affect the combos.

 

[Blatant J]

Dr Peepee Great interview last night. You said that your favourite matchup is the Marth ditto because it allows you to apply everything you have learnt. Could you go into specifics about why this matchup does this better than others?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I spent most of my time learning dash dancing and threatening the ground with Marth and I find that applies best to threatening himself and Sheik. What I learned about spacing out worse characters also applies well to ICs and lower tiered characters but I haven't been able to show that yet.

 

[A_Reverie]

Dr Peepee Great interview last night. You said that your favourite matchup is the Marth ditto because it allows you to apply everything you have learnt. Could you go into specifics about why this matchup does this better than others?

The way I see it is Marth's fundamentals allow him to threaten from longer distances than his opponents can. When you put yourself up against another Marth your accuracy and consistency is tested because he's capable of the same extreme reach. Add to that his crazy grab game and edgeguard game against himself and you get a matchup that affords you very little room for error. Your positioning has to be so tight and it's way easier to slide/drift into the wrong spot.

 

[SaintX3]

How do you guys develop consistency at countering options in neutral? Let me elaborate: Last tournament I went to, I was the best player by far, and I won. In grand finals I was playing a fox who did two things: laser or run in shine. Like, thats it. Sometimes a full hop nair. And I beat him pretty easily, but I felt like I got hit by a lot of things I saw coming. I would catch running shines despite being ready and waiting to punish that option. I pivot-grabbed him 9/10 times, but that one time I missed it was pretty frustrating. How do you push through that last 10 percent in neutral and stop getting hit by things you see coming?

 

[capusa27]

Dr Peepee

Vs. Pikachu, how should Marth approach his movement game to create space? From watching Tai, I'm pretty sure his primary movement option is wavedashing (usually to counter cross ups)/max length dash back pivots. What are your thoughts on these movement options vs Pikachu? Thanks.

 

[Raycu]

When M2K does an overshoot fair then double jump back dair, is he covering for di out to land a ken combo? Because if he pops them up and away with the bottom of his sword arc and keeps going forward he'd be able to land it in both situations I'd assume.
Example: https://youtu.be/2uxI1STtbkQ?t=134
It seems like it covers because he can dj jump forward to land it
http://ikneedata.com/calculator?ver...v=65.4,65.4&1w=65.4&1x=65.4&1y=00000&1z=0,0,0

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee

Vs. Pikachu, how should Marth approach his movement game to create space? From watching Tai, I'm pretty sure his primary movement option is wavedashing (usually to counter cross ups)/max length dash back pivots. What are your thoughts on these movement options vs Pikachu? Thanks.

Hm yeah you could do that. I think SH'ing and drifting is pretty good vs Pikachu since Pika can't really challenge you in the air unless pretty close. WD is good because you get under Nair when you crouch for the WD and you're already holding down in case you get hit anyway so I agree it's good. Max length dash back for pivot grab, or dash turnaround shield on reaction to Nair so you grab him when he lands in front of you are good ways to beat approaching Nair, but of course you can CC or retreating Fair as well.

The only other thing to create space(assuming you mean widen space between both characters) would be the dash-wavedash just to get more space and have a hold down option as well as ground moves/less momentum after the WD so you can act to the new position with more options. Maybe runaway Bair too since it's pretty safe.

When M2K does an overshoot fair then double jump back dair, is he covering for di out to land a ken combo? Because if he pops them up and away with the bottom of his sword arc and keeps going forward he'd be able to land it in both situations I'd assume.
Example: https://youtu.be/2uxI1STtbkQ?t=134
It seems like it covers because he can dj jump forward to land it
http://ikneedata.com/calculator?ver...v=65.4,65.4&1w=65.4&1x=65.4&1y=00000&1z=0,0,0

Yeah he's pretty much trying to change up his timing and cover DI out with another Fair if need be.

 

[Swarles]

What should I be doing when spacies are in the corner? I've noticed that PP uses a lot of delayed fair and spaced nair into dash away. Is there a better option than this? Can I simply DD at a safe range and react to all of their options?

 

[A_Reverie]

What should I be doing when spacies are in the corner? I've noticed that PP uses a lot of delayed fair and spaced nair into dash away. Is there a better option than this? Can I simply DD at a safe range and react to all of their options?

Vs Fox I like to dash dance around center at a range that makes running shine hard for them. From there you can narrow your coverage down to their aerial approach. If they're unable to use running shine safely they can dash in and grab but you can cover this with Dtilt or a retreating Fair if they move in too close.

This will force them to jump at you or up to a platform to go around you. Falco likes to laser, but eventually he has to jump on you. Jumping toward you from the corner can lead to disaster for them if you meet them in the air and intercept them as they jump into, since the hit you score will likely send them hurdling off the stage and set you up for an edgeguard. If they catch the ledge you should usually back off to respect the ledge dash.

If they hesitate you can poke at them. I like to use Dtilt or if I've jumped to do a rising Fair to intercept and they didn't move in, drift forward a bit for my second Fair. Mix up attacks that edge into their space. Getting a grab in this position is really rewarding and they have less room to retreat. If you pressure them enough to jump in and you can keep them cornered for a long time, but realize if they are just dash dancing and are unwilling to move in you have a huge advantage. This gives you the opportunity to push on their space until they either get hit or run out of stage. It's harder to overreach when they have less access to stage behind them. That said, their high Nair is really fast and Dair has fat hitboxes, so don't push in too far.

 

[Swarles]

Thanks for the detailed response Reverie!

I do have some more Marth related questions. I'm having trouble utilizing CC in general, it feels awkward using it with Marth large dash range. From watching pro player videos I've noticed that they CC after a whiffed aerial in order to mix up their opponents punish. Is this the extent of what Marth can realistically use CC for? As a follow up to this is, ASDI down applicable to all situations where one could CC?

 

[A_Reverie]

Thanks for the detailed response Reverie!

I do have some more Marth related questions. I'm having trouble utilizing CC in general, it feels awkward using it with Marth large dash range. From watching pro player videos I've noticed that they CC after a whiffed aerial in order to mix up their opponents punish. Is this the extent of what Marth can realistically use CC for? As a follow up to this is, ASDI down applicable to all situations where one could CC?

Crouch is its own state that reduces knockback, so no ASDI down won't be applicable in every situation. Holding crouch after an aerial to absorb an incoming whiff punish hit is similar to shielding something but CC is more reliable at appropriate percents because it gives you access to more options right away. Shields will suffer shield stun and must be jumped out of in order to act immediately, making you more vulnerable to pressure. So you can think of it as another way to absorb hits, exchanging some damage taken for better frame data. It's more proactive than shields in that you should already have an idea of what you're going to do just after absorbing the hit. It's a very good tool for earning grabs and quick counterhits with Dtilt.

A quick way to get into crouch with a forward movement is wavedash and run cancel. This is why it's not always a good idea to put out your Dtilt as soon you wavedash/run cancel in neutral because if you end up spacing too close and enter Dtilt animation you won't be CCing anymore. Keep a close watch on your spacing and use CC as a way to absorb some of the more accessible responses to poor spacing our opponent may go for. Making it so they have to reach further with a grab or an attack that beats CC can be advantageous. For example if you end up CCing a Sheik Fair to Ftilt string, from there they'll have to potentially overextend to get a grab and break through.

There are some limitations, for example Fox's Dair can't be crouch canceled due to its angle and multi-hit property. There's other moves that can't be CC'd that you should expect skilled opponents to use if they anticipate you crouching. It's also beaten by raw grabs. Beyond that you have to be aware of the percents that CC works on certain key moves for each matchup, like Sheik's Fair. As long as you're within a damage range that allows it, you should look for ways to CC moves that are normally safe and make them unsafe. Lastly, keep in mind that CC is one tool out of many you should mixup between in neutral. The more you center a gameplan around it the more easily the opponent can adapt.

TL;DR
- Use CC to absorb hits and open up potential counterhits/grabs and protect a spacing error.
- Use CC to force opponents to risk overextending to beat it.
- CC normally safe moves to make them less safe.
- Include CC in a varied neutral form that is still centered around Marth's fundamental wide-reaching poking game.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Dr Peepee
Any general guidelines for low-% juggles (for both sides)? I'm thinking about situations where a non-fastfaller is sent upward and sharked from below, but it isn't a true combo. Jumping out is an option, but costly if read, not jumping and an anti-air attack might connect. An example would be Marth's up-throw at low %s (here and here).

 

[Dr Peepee]

It depends on the matchup. In the Marth ditto, if you can get a Utilt(refer to Kadano thread) then get that. If you can't you can either try to force the Utilt and then chase or just react with Utilt/rising Uair if they come down and otherwise chase the jump up. If you're the one being juggled, you can change slight DIs to make it more confusing for the opponent and also change your side B timing or don't do it at all and fall with an aerial(fairly hard mixup to completely cover).

 

[Zorcey]

Dr Peepee You've talked a lot about how it's important to practice putting combinations of basic movements and attacks together when solo practicing, and I'm really starting to get why this is so important as I improve my understanding of the game but now need to work really hard on execution.

Do you have any particular recs for combinations of moves Marths should practice that are fundamental to a lot of mus or just give a lot of mileage when applicable? And do you have any tips for theorycrafting and what to consider when you're trying to figure out what combinations to put together (particularly with Marth's movement options)? There's just an exponential amount of combinations and situations and I'm kind of looking for a starting point(s).