Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Syaith]

PP COME BACK SOON WE MISS YOU SO MUCH

(or at least give us an update?)

 

[capusa27]

Hi Dr Peepee

One thing that I have noticed about your Marth demeanor is that it is very optimistic (although, you didn't like Sheik, but now you do). From what I've read from your comment history, you were skeptical of the Marth doubters. What made you skeptical of the Marth doubt train that was occurring in the late 2000's/early 2010's? Do you attribute it to working with Cactuar and Umbreon? Do you think the character doubt was a lack of matchup knowledge, weak player base, a combination of both, or other factors? Where do you think Marth can make the most improvements in the coming years? Thanks.

 

[bts.mongoose]

I'd suggest doing it the other way around. Look at when they actually commit, what happens, then look at whether they tried to condition for it beforehand or took advantage of the new conditioning after. That has been pretty solid in my book.

So to that end, will top players generally commit to even a small option, like dtilt, only after they've done some form of conditioning or observation that makes them confident that it'll work? Or do they sometimes make a commitment "randomly," or simply to gain information?

 

[Dr Peepee]

PP COME BACK SOON WE MISS YOU SO MUCH

(or at least give us an update?)

There is nothing too major to say right now but I do miss you all very very much as well. Just making my progress and getting ever closer to normal. Really hope that changes soon!

Hi Dr Peepee

One thing that I have noticed about your Marth demeanor is that it is very optimistic (although, you didn't like Sheik, but now you do). From what I've read from your comment history, you were skeptical of the Marth doubters. What made you skeptical of the Marth doubt train that was occurring in the late 2000's/early 2010's? Do you attribute it to working with Cactuar and Umbreon? Do you think the character doubt was a lack of matchup knowledge, weak player base, a combination of both, or other factors? Where do you think Marth can make the most improvements in the coming years? Thanks.

That's a good question. I think it's because I started playing when Marth was unbeatable and I saw so much lost from him after Brawl came out and the years after. I figured there had to be a way to make that early vision of Marth real again and just followed my instincts. Both Umbreon and Cactuar disagreed with me about Marth when I was learning him but taught me anyway. I am just stubbornly hopeful sometimes I guess lol

So to that end, will top players generally commit to even a small option, like dtilt, only after they've done some form of conditioning or observation that makes them confident that it'll work? Or do they sometimes make a commitment "randomly," or simply to gain information?

Sometimes they do it first because they are in a playmaking state of mind, and some do things to gain information and take their time. These are the sorts of things that are much better understood after lots of analysis and you can have your own rules like conservative players tend to do XYZ and their mixups are usually ABC and their timing is slower or varied, etc

 

[ridemyboat]

That's a good question. I think it's because I started playing when Marth was unbeatable and I saw so much lost from him after Brawl came out and the years after. I figured there had to be a way to make that early vision of Marth real again and just followed my instincts. Both Umbreon and Cactuar disagreed with me about Marth when I was learning him but taught me anyway. I am just stubbornly hopeful sometimes I guess lol

Would you expand on this? I remember someone in Norcal saying that Cactuar's opinion of Marth isn't pretty lol. I can't remember who said it, though.

 

[capusa27]

Dr Peepee

I just finished my first tournament at school. While I was competing, quite a few of the better players noticed and praised my decision making as intelligent despite my horrific technical ability (like not l-canceling really anything) and were genually surprised that I've only played the game competetively a handful of times since my Wii broke and not one of my friends had the game.

I wanted to thank you for keeping my mind sharp and full of ideas. Hopefully we can have more meaningful conversations about matchups and playstyles since I've started playing again. :D

 

[Dr Peepee]

Would you expand on this? I remember someone in Norcal saying that Cactuar's opinion of Marth isn't pretty lol. I can't remember who said it, though.

Last I spoke to him about Marth he said I had changed his opinion to thinking Marth could do it again. That was a while ago so he may have changed his stance after going back and playing lots of Marth himself but I don't know for sure.

Initially he was telling me that Marth's lag on his moves was too great and a character like Fox could reliably bait out lag using proper neutral play. I think he thought that was the main problem and not anything to do with punish iirc

 

[AirFair]

That's a good question. I think it's because I started playing when Marth was unbeatable and I saw so much lost from him after Brawl came out and the years after. I figured there had to be a way to make that early vision of Marth real again and just followed my instincts. Both Umbreon and Cactuar disagreed with me about Marth when I was learning him but taught me anyway. I am just stubbornly hopeful sometimes I guess lol

While Marth does have lag on his moves, if there is one thing I have learned from you, it is that Marth doesn't need to swing to be a threat in neutral. I think you have done a great job bringing attention to this style of marth that I love so much. I believe in him too!

 

[Kopaka]

While Marth does have lag on his moves, if there is one thing I have learned from you, it is that Marth doesn't need to swing to be a threat in neutral. I think you have done a great job bringing attention to this style of marth that I love so much. I believe in him too!

My favorite part of my day is coming home and reading the newest posts in this thread

 

[MyNeighborBurrito]

Hey PP,

Are there any particularly good videos/matches you'd recommend starting with when it comes to analysis? My instinct is to start with my own, but I was wondering if you think there are better starting points.

Also more specifically on Marth, I was wondering if you think it's a good idea to take videos of top Marths, drop the speed down to 0.25, and find chunks of movement I like and drill them out? Or is that not enough if I don't know why that movement was used in neutral in that particular context?

Thanks again PP! <3

 

[Dr Peepee]

Look at yourself, players a little better than you, top players, high level players. Get as much different material as you can. You'll be able to pull more from yourself or someone slightly above you than top players often but they all have valuable information to get if you're willing to spend the time to look. Slowing the matches down works fine as well. And yes you'll want to be able to understand movement before practicing it extensively but some of your knowledge will come from practice so the most important thing is just to get started.

 

[Blatant J]

Any tips for getting back onstage from the ledge in the ditto? Feels like marth covers himself so well.

 

[lokt]

Hey PP, I've been really struggling with characters like fox and sheik whiffing attacks right outside of my range. For example, shiek falling with fair or fox landing with nair just far enough away that they can get a spotdodge out before I can grab/fair them.

I did some brainstorming and decided that using double fair or nair in these situations would be strong as a primary option, and waiting out the spotdodge to get a grab and a stronger punish occasionally. What are your thoughts?

 

[Raycu]

Any advice for avoiding Marth's downtilts?

 

[capusa27]

Dr Peepee

Hi. When you are at the edge against Yoshi as Marth, what do you think about using grab releases for edgeguards? I plan on testing this out tomorrow, so I will be able to share my discoveries with you. Thanks.

 

[A_Reverie]

Any tips for getting back onstage from the ledge in the ditto? Feels like marth covers himself so well.

When you're on the ledge vs. a good opponent it becomes a mixup game. The fact is anything you choose here can be countered and if the other Marth is smart he'll pick a good spot that makes it easier for him to beat the choice you make. So you have two main components to your ledge play: the stall and the recovery.

Stalling is pretty straightforward. It lets you reset your invulnerability and keep them guessing but if done too much will leave the ledge open to be stolen. You should try not to stall the same amount of times every ledge situation.

You have a handful of options to get back onstage with. <100% you have decent options in regular getup and roll. You can attack from the ledge by jumping into an aerial or by just doing the getup attack but these lose hard to CC and another Marth will probably stay crouched outside of the ledge ready to dtilt or grab you. Then you have ledge dash out of which you can use attacks like dtilt, or choose defensive actions. If your timing is tight you can enter shield out of the ledge dash and buffer roll or spot dodge out of it, which can avoid grab attempts. You can also grab out of ledge dash by just pressing A as your shield comes up. On the more advanced end are NIL (No-Impact landing) and haxdash for even rarer mixups. You can even counter from ledge if you are confident they'll attack, but this is an option you should only use if you pick up on an opponent's habit.

Your goal is to assess the position they're in and choose an option you think can break through. Unfortunately, a Marth with good positioning and quick thinking can respond to a lot of your choices by simply timing a grab or dtilt. Your best bet is to just choose a different option as often as possible. More important than that is to try and act as effectively as possible out of your chosen option. Vary your waveland lengths and mixup between dtilt/grab for your ledgedashes. Vs. Marth specifically you'll know they're mostly looking for a dtilt or a grab so getting a grab first or slipping through with a roll can be effective. Just always be aware you're in a VERY bad position and shouldn't expect to break through every time, but if you do go ahead and pat yourself on the back.

 

[Raycu]

When you're on the ledge vs. a good opponent it becomes a mixup game. The fact is anything you choose here can be countered and if the other Marth is smart he'll pick a good spot that makes it easier for him to beat the choice you make. So you have two main components to your ledge play: the stall and the recovery.

Stalling is pretty straightforward. It lets you reset your invulnerability and keep them guessing but if done too much will leave the ledge open to be stolen. You should try not to stall the same amount of times every ledge situation.

You have a handful of options to get back onstage with. <100% you have decent options in regular getup and roll. You can attack from the ledge by jumping into an aerial or by just doing the getup attack but these lose hard to CC and another Marth will probably stay crouched outside of the ledge ready to dtilt or grab you. Then you have ledge dash out of which you can use attacks like dtilt, or choose defensive actions. If your timing is tight you can enter shield out of the ledge dash and buffer roll or spot dodge out of it, which can avoid grab attempts. You can also grab out of ledge dash by just pressing A as your shield comes up. On the more advanced end are NIL (No-Impact landing) and haxdash for even rarer mixups. You can even counter from ledge if you are confident they'll attack, but this is an option you should only use if you pick up on an opponent's habit.

Your goal is to assess the position they're in and choose an option you think can break through. Unfortunately, a Marth with good positioning and quick thinking can respond to a lot of your choices by simply timing a grab or dtilt. Your best bet is to just choose a different option as often as possible. More important than that is to try and act as effectively as possible out of your chosen option. Vary your waveland lengths and mixup between dtilt/grab for your ledgedashes. Vs. Marth specifically you'll know they're mostly looking for a dtilt or a grab so getting a grab first or slipping through with a roll can be effective. Just always be aware you're in a VERY bad position and shouldn't expect to break through every time, but if you do go ahead and pat yourself on the back.

What about jump to waveland regrab?

 

[A_Reverie]

What about jump to waveland regrab?

I think you're referring to haxdash - jumping from ledge, wavelanding backwards to regrab the ledge. This is only completely invincible if you are frame perfect. If you do it wrong expect to get dtilted, but at least you'll get your jump back.

 

[Raycu]

No, I'm more referring to stages with platforms close to ledge where you can hit y to do a jump and then waveland on the platform and fall back.

 

[gcboy]

Hi! I have a question about spot dodges. I know that with good enough dash dancing you can probably save yourself but I find that against a spacie that overshoots and knows how to get in against marth I have trouble dodging grabs. With mixups of lasers, shines, and staggered jabs I find myself caught in shield and unable to force the space animal away with zoning AC aerials and dtilts. Obviously the space animal grabs the shield on reaction and it leads to a big conversion. During these times I feel forced to spot dodge and while it works with varying success against the people in my local scene I'm left thinking that this is a bad habit I'm developing. Is it okay to spot dodge these grabs that they are able to get by pressuring me into shield? Or am I going about it the wrong way. This is kinda connected to feeling like a space animal, Fox with good shuffle (especially nair/running shine mixups) pressure/Falco with good lasers, just wins neutral against Marth

 

[A_Reverie]

No, I'm more referring to stages with platforms close to ledge where you can hit y to do a jump and then waveland on the platform and fall back.

Marth can't reach platforms with his midair jump from the ledge. The only way he can is by haxdashing and then jumping immediately after sliding off and this only works on Battlefield, Yoshi's, and FoD at certain heights. It's a decent mixup if they commit to covering something at ground level but is reactable enough that you shouldn't do it too often.

 

[PoppaSquat]

Dr Peepee

i've been doing some labbing for the marth - puff matchup, and I personally found retreating fairs and nairs to be very helpful. I practiced doing fade-back aerials out of different points in my dash dance so I could reliably cover a bunch of her approach options without running into puff's aerials. But going back and watching your match vs S0ft at Civil War I saw you using a ton of approaching fairs to whiff punish. My explanations for your use of approaching fair was as follows: you were fading in to guarantee the hit in case puff faded away, the non-tipper hitbox allowed you to combo the floaty more reliably at low percents (you got plenty of ken combos in this set because of non-tipper fair), and if the puff misspaced and got too close your fade-in fair would cross puff up. I think this makes a lot of sense, but its still just conjecture on my part so I was wondering if you could shed some light on how you approach neutral vs puff as marth.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Any tips for getting back onstage from the ledge in the ditto? Feels like marth covers himself so well.

Regrabbing edge at altered times(not always asap), hax dash vs edgedash vs rising Fair/Nair, and DJ'ing to the edge of the stage and Fsmash'ing/fighting are all pretty good mixups. It's a bad position and you have to outplay to make it back.

Any advice for avoiding Marth's downtilts?

CC and Dtilt back, jump over it, space around it. Those are your only real ways to do it.

Hi! I have a question about spot dodges. I know that with good enough dash dancing you can probably save yourself but I find that against a spacie that overshoots and knows how to get in against marth I have trouble dodging grabs. With mixups of lasers, shines, and staggered jabs I find myself caught in shield and unable to force the space animal away with zoning AC aerials and dtilts. Obviously the space animal grabs the shield on reaction and it leads to a big conversion. During these times I feel forced to spot dodge and while it works with varying success against the people in my local scene I'm left thinking that this is a bad habit I'm developing. Is it okay to spot dodge these grabs that they are able to get by pressuring me into shield? Or am I going about it the wrong way. This is kinda connected to feeling like a space animal, Fox with good shuffle (especially nair/running shine mixups) pressure/Falco with good lasers, just wins neutral against Marth

If a spacie gets on your shield that's a bad position for you. You have to prevent that as much as possible. Lightshield, WD OOS, occasional shield grab, up-B OOS and roll are probably the options to be looking into here. Spotdodge is too laggy and doesn't adapt to changes in spacie pressure as easily as the other tools.

Dr Peepee

i've been doing some labbing for the marth - puff matchup, and I personally found retreating fairs and nairs to be very helpful. I practiced doing fade-back aerials out of different points in my dash dance so I could reliably cover a bunch of her approach options without running into puff's aerials. But going back and watching your match vs S0ft at Civil War I saw you using a ton of approaching fairs to whiff punish. My explanations for your use of approaching fair was as follows: you were fading in to guarantee the hit in case puff faded away, the non-tipper hitbox allowed you to combo the floaty more reliably at low percents (you got plenty of ken combos in this set because of non-tipper fair), and if the puff misspaced and got too close your fade-in fair would cross puff up. I think this makes a lot of sense, but its still just conjecture on my part so I was wondering if you could shed some light on how you approach neutral vs puff as marth.

Yeah the approaching and retreating aerials are both great vs Puff. If I go in with Fair, then I can catch her jumping or backing up(most Puffs do this or crouch) and if she shields I should be prepared to fade back a bit to be safe. My reward is good and she isn't always super likely to hit me unless she outright dodges my attack. At higher percent this isn't worth it so much since you can't combo off of it so it's better to get more guaranteed hits or grabs then. There's nothing wrong with staying defensive in the matchup, but it needs to be pretty nuanced and have offense worked into it or Puff will just back you into a corner slowly.

 

[capusa27]

Dr Peepee

Today I explored edgeguarding Yoshi with grab release. What I discovered was that Yoshi still retains his double jump and can air release to get back onto stage. Other times, Yoshi would release downwards and grab the ledge. I remember one or two times Yoshi missed the ledge and died. The other players didn't really know what to make of the situation and said that it would just be better to space tippers.

Thoughts?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah I wish grabbing didn't give a jump back but it's fine. Besides that, I've read that if you press a jump button while being grabbed you'll air release. So I guess sometimes they pressed a jump button and sometimes they didn't. I never spent much time testing it honestly so maybe there's more to it I wouldn't know about/remember.

 

[gcboy]

Thanks PP, I appreciate it. Figured as much :/

---

For the benefit of others too, just some clarifications about Marth defensive options getting out of shield to make sure my understanding is correct:

WD and roll back are better right before they land an arial hitbox on shield yes? As opposed to when shine hits. I assume rolling behind a spacie is a bad idea most of the time cuz shines and any arial can beat it.

UpB OoS against laggy hits on shield I guess? I can only think of something like a bad smash cuz I get punished more often than not doing this unless it's against a badly spaced shffl or I preemptively shield stop short/WD OoS shield back.

Shield grabs are only if you can shield DI/shield angle them into a bad spot? Are there any other ways to bait out behaviors that make shield grabbing safe? I guess against tomahawks and empty grabs it is good? Can't see how else unless they miss my shield/their L cancel or the shine input

I honestly don't understand how to use light shield. This is for me to slide out of pressure Yeah? Is this for when I'm on platform cuz that's how I use it or does it work even just on stage and against shine/arial shield pressure in general or am I looking out for specific moves like Falco dair/Fox nair

Granted ideally you don't even shield and just ice skates dash dance away but if you have to block you gotta block sometimes too

---

Are these also the types of moves you use OoS aggressively? For example I saw a set of you and Plup that Leffen was analyzing where you'd pressure him into the corner on battlefield and just run up and hold shield from center stage right at that nook short of the platform. Of course that's against shiek who you're trying to bait into jumping and you can arial OoS in that position. Shield is safe against tilts Arial and dash attack but what if they run up and grab? WD back on reaction? Or are you really just trying to bait out any reaction for observation purposes so the next time you run at them in corner you know their knee jerk response?

---

Question also about actually throwing out hitboxes to take initiative in neutral. Sometimes I find myself trying to stray away from being too passive in neutral because that gets me run over and I have to gain their respect. I find myself throwing out three types of moves generally. Pokes with a spaced ff fair ir dtilt, stay away from me moves with AC nairs and either double fairs/retreating ones or occasionally rising Dair/upB, and moves to hopefully start a combo. To me the only moves Marth can convert off of are pretty much just grab, Utilt, falling Uair if they're grounded (risky), shffl tipper Uair or rising tipper fair. Even with these "juggle starters" though I feel like they can often just DI up or away and get off Scott free. Always feel like I only manage to get a couple potshots in. Am I missing something basic? What other hits am I supposed to be trying to land? Do these hits not lead to long strings? Or am I just getting outplayed and being too predictable (very real possibility).

---

Thanks tons Ppmd and everyone else here Hope this exercise of repeating information all the time is beneficial for you too, rethinking and clarifying the basics, and isn't just taking advantage of the fact that you're really awesome guys. For what it's worth I'd insta buy four copies of your version of the Book of Five Rings/Daigo Gospel by Ppmd

 

[capusa27]

Dr Peepee

What are your thoughts about using back throw tech chasing vs Falcon? From what I've seen/tested, back throw has lower knockback than down throw so maybe it would make tech chasing easier. Also, you could get combo potential from back throw like up-throw due to platform punishes at certain percents.

 

[Kaoak]

Hi PP, I'm sure you've heard of that drastic improvement thread that Umbreon wrote a long time ago. In this thread he asks the reader to give a short response of their character's general gameplan in your own words. Could you give me your own description of how Marth operates, and what his gameplan is in the neutral game including your overall goals etc?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee

What are your thoughts about using back throw tech chasing vs Falcon? From what I've seen/tested, back throw has lower knockback than down throw so maybe it would make tech chasing easier. Also, you could get combo potential from back throw like up-throw due to platform punishes at certain percents.

I like Bthrow onto a side platform as a mixup to Uthrow or a side throw occasionally, but in my limited testing of Bthrow for pure ground tech chasing it seems you get less time to do it than Fthrow/Dthrow tech chasing anyway. Honestly I think Fthrow/Dthrow is all you need for tech chasing anyway but there may be situations/percents closer to the edge where Bthrow is best.

Hi PP, I'm sure you've heard of that drastic improvement thread that Umbreon wrote a long time ago. In this thread he asks the reader to give a short response of their character's general gameplan in your own words. Could you give me your own description of how Marth operates, and what his gameplan is in the neutral game including your overall goals etc?

imo, Marth's neutral gameplan can be done in two ways. One is through threatening with moves and one is through threatening with movement. Marth's goal in either case is to corner the opponent or put them in sword range where he can hit them but they cannot hit him.

 

[capusa27]

What are all of your thoughts about using double f-air vs Yoshi? My thinking is that Marth can reliably use his air drift to microspace outside of parry with rising f-air and hit Yoshi with falling f-air after Yoshi misses his parry. Do you think this could be used with d-tilt? Thanks Dr Peepee and everybody!

 

[bts.mongoose]

Alright, so this is a stupidly vague question, but I'm still typing it: When people say they're "learning a matchup" or "how to play neutral" in a matchup, what are they actually trying to learn? My idea has always been something like, you have a goal, and you want to learn setups that achieve that goal. Like I can bait out a nair, a setup, to get a grab, my goal. But that seems far too simple, like I'm describing a tactic instead of a strategy. So what's the glue that holds the tactics together? And how do I suss this out for myself?

 

[Dr Peepee]

What are all of your thoughts about using double f-air vs Yoshi? My thinking is that Marth can reliably use his air drift to microspace outside of parry with rising f-air and hit Yoshi with falling f-air after Yoshi misses his parry. Do you think this could be used with d-tilt? Thanks Dr Peepee and everybody!

Maybe? I tend to not want to give Yoshi any chances to successfully parry but that might be fine.

Alright, so this is a stupidly vague question, but I'm still typing it: When people say they're "learning a matchup" or "how to play neutral" in a matchup, what are they actually trying to learn? My idea has always been something like, you have a goal, and you want to learn setups that achieve that goal. Like I can bait out a nair, a setup, to get a grab, my goal. But that seems far too simple, like I'm describing a tactic instead of a strategy. So what's the glue that holds the tactics together? And how do I suss this out for myself?

Usually people are learning how to beat situations or a couple move and movement combinations. So learning how to beat laser AC Bair from Falco would be one thing you might be learning to beat. A situation could be something like corner game or up close game, or a position that occurs after certain actions like a dropped combo, etc. There are many ways to approach this though. You can look at your win conditions and best positions in neutral and try to get there from that direction.

 

[bts.mongoose]

Usually people are learning how to beat situations or a couple move and movement combinations. So learning how to beat laser AC Bair from Falco would be one thing you might be learning to beat. A situation could be something like corner game or up close game, or a position that occurs after certain actions like a dropped combo, etc. There are many ways to approach this though. You can look at your win conditions and best positions in neutral and try to get there from that direction.

Thank you for the response. So would you say I'm maybe going too wide with it? Like, is the solution to break it down into smaller pieces instead of trying to look at the big picture all at once?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah you have to do it in parts then relate that back to the whole. You can start with big ideas if you want but at some point it helps to take things one part at a time.

 

[bboss]

Dr Peepee How important is technical skill in general with Marth? I feel like a strong mental game more than a strong technical game makes a player. Is learning character-specific tech (i.e. with fox) important just so i can understand my opponent better, like waveshining? Or is there a happy medium where some technical skill and a decent mental game makes you a very good player?

 

[capusa27]

Today, I thought of a setup that may be effective at breaking Yoshi's double jump armor. It's not complicated, but I never see any Marths use it, so it probably isn't very useful.

My proposed setup is this: Marth isn't sure if he can continue to up-air/f-air combo Yoshi when they are above a platform or get tipper edgeguards while Marth is on or below a platform. Marth decides it would be best to shield or NIL to shield. Yoshi sees this and decides to double jump away. However, Marth fakes his shield drop and goes for up-smash out of shield.

One of the problems that I see with the setup is that Yoshi might be able to punish Marth after his up smash even if the smash halts the double jump. I'll need to test the percents at which up-smash breaks double jump armor, but hopefully this can be valuable in beating Yoshi!

 

[Kopaka]

Dr Peepee How important is technical skill in general with Marth? I feel like a strong mental game more than a strong technical game makes a player. Is learning character-specific tech (i.e. with fox) important just so i can understand my opponent better, like waveshining? Or is there a happy medium where some technical skill and a decent mental game makes you a very good player?

Execution is very important no matter the character. How well can you execute when you feel the way you may feel in a tourney? You can't have one without the other, even if there's people out there who think otherwise.

 

[A_Reverie]

Dr Peepee How important is technical skill in general with Marth? I feel like a strong mental game more than a strong technical game makes a player. Is learning character-specific tech (i.e. with fox) important just so i can understand my opponent better, like waveshining? Or is there a happy medium where some technical skill and a decent mental game makes you a very good player?

To add on to what Kopaka said, getting better technically allows you to use more mental space for more important things.

 

[capusa27]

Dr Peepee

One of the most common sayings in Arizona is that when @Tee ay eye plays on Yoshi story, it is 2 v 1 since he uses Randal so well. Do both of you see any advancement with Randal with edgeguarding, combo extension, or other parts of the game? Thanks.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Randall is useful when you're hanging on the edge(can let go and Fsmash) and he's useful when recovering since you could go to him and waveland or whatever and your opponent will have a hard time confirming if Randall is off screen, and maybe some edgeguarding stuff too where you go out there to Fsmash a floaty or something. I don't remember what all I've done for edgeguarding with it but with Marth he's less useful since Marth isn't as quick.