Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[FE_Hector]

That's a good point; I don't think I've seen Armada as shook as he was vs. M2K at Summit in recent memory. The tools for a Marth Renaissance are there, Marth mains just need to get to work (myself included).

This next question is a bit trickier to answer because it's a hypothetical, but how do you think Hungrybox, Armada, and Leffen would play Marth? We've seen how Mang0's Marth does some nontraditional stuff (with mixed results) that is not unlike how he plays spacies and I'm curious if you think the other top players would encounter similar roadblocks. Like, I'm imagining Hungrybox's Marth and I'm seeing a lot of retreating shorthop double fairs and almost no dtilts. I think Armada and Leffen have pocket Marths, but we seldom see those in tournament, if at all.

This question's kinda nutty and if your reply is "i dunno lol ¯\_(ツ)_/ ¯" I can respect that.

To be honest, I actually think that Marth is going through the same sorta weird thing Falco is right now. Everybody knows they can do it, but for some reason or another, nobody is. I personally feel that in the next few years, this will have changed a lot. PPMDs resurgence will help both characters immensely, as will giving more time for the current up-and-comers to improve some more. (This was more about your original thing. I think I hit reply on the wrong one)

 

[AirFair]

Dr Peepee I have a question regarding the usage of dash attack in floaty matchups, such as Marth or Peach.

From past observation, there are 2 primary situations I have noticed it to be used.

One of them is when you are cornered.

To take an example from a Marth ditto
https://youtu.be/00kWf6lvDhU?t=6m13s (vs PPU @ apex)
You use it in the corner her after overextending. This was to catch ppu retreating? did you know he was going to dash back? I feel that dash attack is like a very hard commitment, considering the properties of the move, so it would take either a really good guess, or a good amount of foresight to know when to use it like that, especially in the corner. What I think the answer may be, is that ppu's back was to you, and he wanted to get out of that by dashing away, so you caught it.

Another example
https://youtu.be/0F8CWqvD-uA?t=1m14s (vs PPU @ bo5g)
Because you were coming from the ledge, I myself questioned this decision at first. This time, ppu has a clear stage advantage, and you go for the dash attack after pushing him away with ledgedash dtilt. Is this also because you knew he would try and come back in to prevent you from taking back stage?

I find it curious because it is used so sparingly in the ditto. In Marth vs Peach however, I see it a little bit more, to catch techrolls away and interestingly(or not), at the ledge.

Example (all from vs Armada @ Apex)
https://youtu.be/IomXcdAAt7E?t=3m55s
https://youtu.be/IomXcdAAt7E?t=9m11s
You go for it after getting a fthrow offstage. This is something that I have seen for quite awhile, but I've never understood the benefit of it, as I don't think it worked out for you very much during that particular set, which is why I abstain from using it like that, but I do want to know why it is used. I feel like it would be heavily DI dependent how this works out before and after the hit, whether you can follow it up or not, and if it misses, then you just might leave yourself open, depending, or be unable to cover their return if they go below the attack.
https://youtu.be/IomXcdAAt7E?t=18m57s
here you do hit the fthrow dash attack, and Armada airdodges away from your fair, which you manage to follow with a bair, and you punish his landing with fair. I only find it risky because it could have ended up differently if he had used his position differently, or managed to hit you.

Example of catching a techroll
https://youtu.be/IomXcdAAt7E?t=19m3s
You use fthrow and then follow it with dash > late fair. When Armada techrolls behind you, you catch it, yet he DI's far away form your followups. However, he IS at the edge. Maybe that's the strength of this option? Since you often go for fthrow > nair early near the edge or late fair like above, even if you can't hit them, they ARE in the air or far away, which is quite strong. I guess the only small issue I take with that is just the lack of possible followups at times, but I think I can see the strength it gives with such a large advantage (Peach in the air).

Are these situations the most effective uses of it, and is my understanding of the reasons behind them logical? Are there any other situations you feel it can be used, and why?

Thanks for reading!

 

[Kopaka]

The single biggest thing I would recommend here, considering all factors, is what happened LAST TIME they were in a situation. This is the big key when watching matches and adapting mid-match. Yes it also comes from other factors but let's focus on conditioning right now. If you have your opponent cornered as you said, what is your goal? Do you want them to overextend or do you want them to lock up? Do you want to slowly choke off their space? You need to consider what you think is strongest among those ideas or others and work on that. These rules alone will not guide everything, but conditioning(and reverse engineering it) is a great way to understand them on a deeper level. Let's suppose you want them to overextend. Initially when you corner an opponent maybe you want to encourage them to approach so you pressure them quickly with a dash/WD/jump in. Maybe you fully go in. Next time, if you show your opponent any of those actions, even from slightly different spacings/timings, what do you think they will do? They will try to counter your approach that is supposedly hidden behind that initial action by moving forward to intercept you, and you can now punish. Of course, you could also have just played back and slowly taken stage, or pressured without really committing a lot. There are many variations. The point is that you give yourself a way to create actions that your opponent can/should respond to so you can recreate situations. Once you do that, you can begin using that information against them. THEN you will understand jumping a lot better I believe.

What I'm taking from this is sort of a "know the rules and then you can break them" thing. People say "dont jump vs falcon, stay grounded" etc all the time. But your first approach on Ice was a Nair! But only after knowing that you could cut off his horizontal approach with the move. You only stayed on the ground for as long as you needed to get enough information on him. And THEN you go back in with the dtilt. "These rules alone will not guide everything, but conditioning(and reverse engineering it) is a great way to understand them on a deeper level."

 

[Greyson]

To be honest, I actually think that Marth is going through the same sorta weird thing Falco is right now. Everybody knows they can do it, but for some reason or another, nobody is. I personally feel that in the next few years, this will have changed a lot. PPMDs resurgence will help both characters immensely, as will giving more time for the current up-and-comers to improve some more. (This was more about your original thing. I think I hit reply on the wrong one)

Yep, people having been sleeping on Marth for a while now. Wasn't PP's victory at Apex 2015 the first time in years that Marth conquered a major? Unless I'm wrong, isn't Apex 2015 the last time that the top 6 were present (No M2K at Evo, no Leffen at Bo5G)? I figured that if Marth needed a spotlight to showcase how viable he is, Apex 2015 would have been it.

Here's a much more practical question: Does rising nair cover all platform tech chases with proper spacing? I stumbled upon this post on Tumblr and I believe that someone here might be able to shed more light on the situation.

 

[tauKhan]

Here's a much more practical question: Does rising nair cover all platform tech chases with proper spacing? I stumbled upon this post on Tumblr and I believe that someone here might be able to shed more light on the situation.

Even if it does it does, I think it's poor vs the opponent holding down until very high%

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee I have a question regarding the usage of dash attack in floaty matchups, such as Marth or Peach.

From past observation, there are 2 primary situations I have noticed it to be used.

One of them is when you are cornered.

To take an example from a Marth ditto
https://youtu.be/00kWf6lvDhU?t=6m13s (vs PPU @ apex)
You use it in the corner her after overextending. This was to catch ppu retreating? did you know he was going to dash back? I feel that dash attack is like a very hard commitment, considering the properties of the move, so it would take either a really good guess, or a good amount of foresight to know when to use it like that, especially in the corner. What I think the answer may be, is that ppu's back was to you, and he wanted to get out of that by dashing away, so you caught it.

Another example
https://youtu.be/0F8CWqvD-uA?t=1m14s (vs PPU @ bo5g)
Because you were coming from the ledge, I myself questioned this decision at first. This time, ppu has a clear stage advantage, and you go for the dash attack after pushing him away with ledgedash dtilt. Is this also because you knew he would try and come back in to prevent you from taking back stage?

I find it curious because it is used so sparingly in the ditto. In Marth vs Peach however, I see it a little bit more, to catch techrolls away and interestingly(or not), at the ledge.

Example (all from vs Armada @ Apex)
https://youtu.be/IomXcdAAt7E?t=3m55s
https://youtu.be/IomXcdAAt7E?t=9m11s
You go for it after getting a fthrow offstage. This is something that I have seen for quite awhile, but I've never understood the benefit of it, as I don't think it worked out for you very much during that particular set, which is why I abstain from using it like that, but I do want to know why it is used. I feel like it would be heavily DI dependent how this works out before and after the hit, whether you can follow it up or not, and if it misses, then you just might leave yourself open, depending, or be unable to cover their return if they go below the attack.
https://youtu.be/IomXcdAAt7E?t=18m57s
here you do hit the fthrow dash attack, and Armada airdodges away from your fair, which you manage to follow with a bair, and you punish his landing with fair. I only find it risky because it could have ended up differently if he had used his position differently, or managed to hit you.

Example of catching a techroll
https://youtu.be/IomXcdAAt7E?t=19m3s
You use fthrow and then follow it with dash > late fair. When Armada techrolls behind you, you catch it, yet he DI's far away form your followups. However, he IS at the edge. Maybe that's the strength of this option? Since you often go for fthrow > nair early near the edge or late fair like above, even if you can't hit them, they ARE in the air or far away, which is quite strong. I guess the only small issue I take with that is just the lack of possible followups at times, but I think I can see the strength it gives with such a large advantage (Peach in the air).

Are these situations the most effective uses of it, and is my understanding of the reasons behind them logical? Are there any other situations you feel it can be used, and why?

Thanks for reading!

The best way I'd say to use it is in Marth dittos AND if you call out your opponent/want to get a quick conversion you feel confident about. Also if you Fthrow Peach offstage at certain percents(M2K knows the percents for this better than I do). You can watch Summit for some better ideas about how it works even if Armada did play pretty badly.

First and second situation I did it because he'd be off balance and he always moves when he's off balance. Most Marths do that's why it's better in Marth dittos(far from a staple technique though).

And for the last one, that's some old M2K gimmick where you dash attack their dash away after covering 2/4 options but it doesn't actually work if they shield or spotdodge on reaction. I do not like this play but I did test it for a while and kinda used it because it worked some.

 

[Greyson]

Even if it does it does, I think it's poor vs the opponent holding down until very high%

Do you think it can work as a mixup around 50-70% or should one assume that the opponent is always holding down in a tech chase situation?

 

[tauKhan]

Do you think it can work as a mixup around 50-70% or should one assume that the opponent is always holding down in a tech chase situation?

Maybe if you can make them scared of tipper fsmashes, otherwise at least I'm always holding down. Also if you hit first hit of the nair, the opponent will be able to full crouch after asdi down on it basically at all %.

 

[1000g2g3g4g800999]

Maybe if you can make them scared of tipper fsmashes

Or dolphin slash's sweetspot.

 

[Taytertot]

hey PP im sure many people have asked about dash dancing and i know there are some solid guides on it but the guides feel a little vague to me so i wanted to know what you think different dash dance lengths can accomplish? do you find that long dash dances fill one role while medium or short length dash dances fill others? my question is more about marth then any other characters. If youve already answered this question somewhere else then i can look for it but i thought there might be something new here.

 

[Greyson]

Maybe if you can make them scared of tipper fsmashes, otherwise at least I'm always holding down. Also if you hit first hit of the nair, the opponent will be able to full crouch after asdi down on it basically at all %.

Or dolphin slash's sweetspot.

Tipper fsmash on a platform in a tech chase seems rather unlikely unless we're talking Yoshi's Story or FoD, but reverse Dolphin Slash sounds like more of a probable threat in this situation. Guess I'll just stick to upairs and uptilts until an opportunity presents itself. Thanks for the info.

 

[tauKhan]

Tipper fsmash on a platform in a tech chase seems rather unlikely unless we're talking Yoshi's Story or FoD, but reverse Dolphin Slash sounds like more of a probable threat in this situation. Guess I'll just stick to upairs and uptilts until an opportunity presents itself. Thanks for the info.

Tech chasing with f-smash is a counter to double stick di. I'm used to it happening to me nowadays.

 

[Greyson]

Tech chasing with f-smash is a counter to double stick di. I'm used to it happening to me nowadays.

What are some good followups when your opponent is on the top platform? That Tumblr post I mentioned brought up SHFFL upair and uptilts as safer options at low percents for the side platforms but was inquiring about the merits of rising nair on the top platform.

Are there any counters to double stick DI on Dreamland platforms? You'll probably see that less often due to Marth's uptilts not reaching, but upair might not lead to a followup and could get punished.

 

[PedXing]

So I've been playing for about 6 months now and finding it really difficult to feel like I'm progressing. I even keep losing to people who have been playing for less time than me, which can be real demoralising!

I'm not sure how to get better at actually winning the game. It's hard to practice this aspect I think. Anyone with any tips on the best way to get better or what I should be filling my practice with as someone who still considers themself a beginner.

 

[Brave Little DeCoste'R]

How do you guys deal with foxes that camp the top platform. I usually have trouble with this on stages like BF and dreamland.

 

[AirFair]

How do you guys deal with foxes that camp the top platform. I usually have trouble with this on stages like BF and dreamland.

What I would do is threaten to uair with a full hop, and see what they do. It may not be the best idea to try to uair, since they can shield it, then drop and punish, even if it may hit them. The most important thing in my mind is to see what I can do to make them come to me, since I don't want to commit at all. If they are dashdancing after I full hop, or they put up shield, then I will try and swing once, then continue to observe them.

 

[Regralht]

Dr Peepee How do you properly factor in timing / rhythm when analyzing situations?

I'll sometimes pick the 'correct' option, but I end up losing the exchange because it was ever so slightly mispaced/timed. Other than having a very, very vague idea of when my opponent does an action, it almost just feels it's just a random guessing game (which doesn't seem to be the case, since top players like you consistently show that you can account for this). For example, if you're trying to hit with the tip of a move, your opponent just needs to take a step back to watch you whiff. If you're too close, you can potentially get stuffed or it'll be unsafe on shield. This feels like it's kind of a mental block for me since it almost feels hopelessly difficult to do this (there's a countless amount of different situations, never-mind even getting to practice them). The amount of correct decisions that need to be made in order to consistently win a situation seems absolutely absurd.

The only answer I can think of is to use threats to narrow down the large windows of when and where your opponent will want to act (which gets even more complicated with whether or not your opponent actually respects those threats). But even with those reduced windows, it still appears to be difficult

 

[Dr Peepee]

To have control over the complexity, you still need to know your win scenarios. You want spaced Dtilt or grab or Fair'ing/Uair'ing them out of the air. Then you figure out how to threaten those things vs their options. You come up with some theories like "if I want to Dtilt and they shield I could just grab instead after I run forward." So you watch videos and see this kinda happen sometimes, and then test it in a match. If in matches it only kind of works and you don't know why, you need to look at what happens in the match when it does and doesn't work and then go back to testing your ideas again.

Trial and error is a good teacher.

 

[AirFair]

Dr Peepee I want to know more about crossing up, and more specifically, crossing up shield, with a dash.
I see that you cross up form the corner when people come at you, and you've said that it's because it's something that they wouldn't expect, and I think that when they give you the space to do so , moving is probably the best thing you can do, so I can understand that at least.

What I am trying to learn is the benefit of crossing up someone's shield. Unfortunately, I don't have any specific example that I can link, but I know that I've seen it be used successfully. Usually, what I am looking for is that someone's shield is put up, or remains put up after I poke with dtilt.

At the corner, I am used to using late fair, and I've found the most success with dashing back after I hit shield in order to cover center better(which I believe was discussed awhile back). However, if I were to dtilt someone, and then I see that shield, I would consider crossing up. What I am afraid of however, is OoS options that can hinder me (eg. shine). Do you choose to cross up a shield after you know they won't try and stop you? What kinds of things do you look for to ensure that it is safe? And what makes it a good option? I would guess that it has to do with what they like to do out of shield, which calls back to observing several situations.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I don't think you should ever cross up unless you expect something like a Fox FH OOS or you need to get out of the corner. Marth, as a character, does best when he's spaced to beat you with his moves and you can't hit him. Why give that up when they can't move and you can? Additionally, this is why I don't think it's super necessary to grab shielding opponents all of the time since you also lose that large advantage.

Learn your strong positions and abuse those first before worrying about any exceptions.

 

[Curleh_Mustache]

What are good approach options?

 

[Life]

Marth doesn't really have to approach in the traditional sense. Let the opponent come to you. If they don't, just sort of slowly take their space and choke them. They'll eventually have to pull the trigger. You have a sword and one of the best dash-dances in the game, that situation is in your favor.

 

[Fex13]

Dr Peepee
do you use claw grip for certain situations? and how do you feel about it for marth in general?
i would really like to hear your opinion on that.

 

[Kopaka]

I don't think you should ever cross up unless you expect something like a Fox FH OOS or you need to get out of the corner. Marth, as a character, does best when he's spaced to beat you with his moves and you can't hit him. Why give that up when they can't move and you can? Additionally, this is why I don't think it's super necessary to grab shielding opponents all of the time since you also lose that large advantage.

Learn your strong positions and abuse those first before worrying about any exceptions.

So it isn't "dash-dance camping" (such a shallow term), you want to be moving your character in accordance to them at all times, picking the way you face them from what distance, whether its crouching, dashing, running, attacking, all depending on what they're doing. The less you give up these things (doing things you really shouldn't be doing like laggy bad fsmashes), the more brilliantly you do this with the least amount of error, the more you'll win.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee
do you use claw grip for certain situations? and how do you feel about it for marth in general?
i would really like to hear your opinion on that.

I don't claw. I've heard of some Marths switching to claw for quick precise attacks so that could be useful.

So it isn't "dash-dance camping" (such a shallow term), you want to be moving your character in accordance to them at all times, picking the way you face them from what distance, whether its crouching, dashing, running, attacking, all depending on what they're doing. The less you give up these things (doing things you really shouldn't be doing like laggy bad fsmashes), the more brilliantly you do this with the least amount of error, the more you'll win.

This is true, but this is a reactive explanation. You can also be proactive while moving. This means you can threaten pokes and grabs or push into their space if they do nothing. Loss of stage space or threat of a hit is enough to motivate people to act, often in predictable ways. Of course, you will have to react to what they decide to do and maybe even decide during a threat to instead play reactive instead, or switch from reactive movement to proactive. The point is these two things are very interrelated and should be studied carefully.

 

[Kopaka]

Dr Peepee PP AHH i just got back from playing Melee for the gamecube with human beings, and I just experienced moments in the Sheik matchup where I'd be having center stage or having her cornered, and I'd do THINGS to make her do STUFF I wanted her to DO, and while this was happening I felt like I was hardly doing anything with my controller, but I wasn't standing still. A lot of the times my moves weren't even connecting, (More-so on purpose too) so it wasn't like I was even comboing her but I was taking stage and getting her off stage! It was so strange, I was pressing half the buttons I normally would think I'd have to press to do things, and hardly landing any sick-nasty combos for the most part. Is this a glimpse of the true power of the sacred Less is More?

 

[KBK Kingkiller]

Dr Peepee
I have a few questions.

1. What do you think about reaction tech chasing spacies with grab off of fthrow? I've seen you do it into corners but not in other situations.

2. I know Marth has a neutral game advantage vs. fox on FD because of the lack of platforms. Is the same true of Pokemon stadium? If so, is there anything I should be doing differently on FD and Pokemon to exploit that advantage or is it more of a situation where I should play similarly to how I would on a more typical stage but am rewarded more for doing the usual things?

3. Do you think that playing mang0's more mixup heavy zoning style of Marth could help mitigate Marth's neutral game disadvantage on more cramped stages like Yoshi's?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee PP AHH i just got back from playing Melee for the gamecube with human beings, and I just experienced moments in the Sheik matchup where I'd be having center stage or having her cornered, and I'd do THINGS to make her do STUFF I wanted her to DO, and while this was happening I felt like I was hardly doing anything with my controller, but I wasn't standing still. A lot of the times my moves weren't even connecting, (More-so on purpose too) so it wasn't like I was even comboing her but I was taking stage and getting her off stage! It was so strange, I was pressing half the buttons I normally would think I'd have to press to do things, and hardly landing any sick-nasty combos for the most part. Is this a glimpse of the true power of the sacred Less is More?

YES!!! That's the feeling right there. Try to record yourself and go over individual actions and scenarios so you can consciously understand how it happens and push your learning farther.

Dr Peepee
I have a few questions.

1. What do you think about reaction tech chasing spacies with grab off of fthrow? I've seen you do it into corners but not in other situations.

2. I know Marth has a neutral game advantage vs. fox on FD because of the lack of platforms. Is the same true of Pokemon stadium? If so, is there anything I should be doing differently on FD and Pokemon to exploit that advantage or is it more of a situation where I should play similarly to how I would on a more typical stage but am rewarded more for doing the usual things?

3. Do you think that playing mang0's more mixup heavy zoning style of Marth could help mitigate Marth's neutral game disadvantage on more cramped stages like Yoshi's?

1. It's underused and Marths should tech chase with Fthrow/Dthrow more. I didn't do it so much because I was scared I'd drop it when I wasn't totally focused.

2. I actually have had some strong back and forths with others and myself about PS in this matchup. The neutral could definitely be said to be Marth's advantage, but the transformations are skewed very much toward Fox. Camping these out could mean loss of stage position which is quite bad. Some transformations are also worse than others, so if Marth decides to rely on that luck they could perhaps maintain advantage longer over the course of the game from the neutral position.

Just some thoughts I've had on the level. I encourage other Marths to explore that stage as extensively as possible.

3. You have to swing more and move less on smaller stages so in that way Mango's play can work better there. However, Mango often likes to do lots of drift and set himself up from farther away so he could still be weaker on smaller stages.

 

[Wall Of SPain]

Dr Peepee I also have a question regarding the boy/girl marth (what even is he? or she?)

As of today I´m really far away from everything melee related, in Spain. And my main concern comes when I return to CO, I have the biggest tournament in the whole year (REVELATIONS 2016 https://smash.gg/tournament/revelation-2016/details) which I want to do good at. I have ``mained´´ 5 characters through my first year of melee, and I have found myself placing well with Fox on weeklies. But right now, I really cannot practice against anybody except my brother who is not the average melee player. (he plays smash 4 and he does not tech anything, and his punishes are awful) So my mind looked at marth, because I have always liked his kind of flowchart but still have room for mix ups punish game. Do you think I should develope a Marth and try to perfect my punish game which I cant finish with fox? Also I read some of the questions above, and do you think standing still is a viable neutral option for marth as it is viable in smash 4?

Thanks - A loving person from Spain

 

[FE_Hector]

Dr Peepee I also have a question regarding the boy/girl marth (what even is he? or she?)

He's a prince from the Fire Emblem series.

 

[Wall Of SPain]

I know, it is just a meme

 

[Hunybear]

so Im having trouble closing stock against ICs. I rely heavily on Tech Chase F-Smash to set up for edge guards and get kills. It makes for my sets to really drag on witch is terrible against climbers. Are there any Kill set up's against IC's i should be taking note of?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee I also have a question regarding the boy/girl marth (what even is he? or she?)

As of today I´m really far away from everything melee related, in Spain. And my main concern comes when I return to CO, I have the biggest tournament in the whole year (REVELATIONS 2016 https://smash.gg/tournament/revelation-2016/details) which I want to do good at. I have ``mained´´ 5 characters through my first year of melee, and I have found myself placing well with Fox on weeklies. But right now, I really cannot practice against anybody except my brother who is not the average melee player. (he plays smash 4 and he does not tech anything, and his punishes are awful) So my mind looked at marth, because I have always liked his kind of flowchart but still have room for mix ups punish game. Do you think I should develope a Marth and try to perfect my punish game which I cant finish with fox? Also I read some of the questions above, and do you think standing still is a viable neutral option for marth as it is viable in smash 4?

Thanks - A loving person from Spain

I think you can do either and be fine. Fox you can practice combos like Hax does or work on more juggles with Bair/Utilt/Usmash/Uair/sometimes grab. Marth you practice tech chasing and CGs and so on.

so Im having trouble closing stock against ICs. I rely heavily on Tech Chase F-Smash to set up for edge guards and get kills. It makes for my sets to really drag on witch is terrible against climbers. Are there any Kill set up's against IC's i should be taking note of?

Juggle them offstage and edgeguard works fine. Poke them to the edge then poke them offstage and edgeguard is good. Juggle them into Utilt kill is great too. You can also throw (pivot) tipper sometimes, especially if the two climbers hit each other from the throw.

 

[Kopaka]

Dr Peepee This is such a strange phenomenon, I was playing a Luigi, and he would double jump back whenever I came close to him and double jumped to try and Fair him. It was a weird pattern that lasted for about 3 seconds or so, the Fairs would sometimes miss and he'd be safe, but my last approach in this pattern was I literally just dashed in, wavedashed in place or something(Observe...!?), and he still did the double jump back! I was able to put out my Fair where he'd be after the double jump and it hit this time! What is this strange power!?

And to add a question for the sake of the thread...What's really interesting though is how you can make these things work on very good players. How is this? It seems hard to have a sense of control against players who will most likely be looking to control situations themselves..counter-control or something.

 

[FE_Hector]

Dr Peepee This is such a strange phenomenon, I was playing a Luigi, and he would double jump back whenever I came close to him and double jumped to try and Fair him. It was a weird pattern that lasted for about 3 seconds or so, the Fairs would sometimes miss and he'd be safe, but my last approach in this pattern was I literally just dashed in, wavedashed in place or something(Observe...!?), and he still did the double jump back! I was able to put out my Fair where he'd be after the double jump and it hit this time! What is this strange power!?

And to add a question for the sake of the thread...What's really interesting though is how you can make these things work on very good players. How is this? It seems hard to have a sense of control against players who will most likely be looking to control situations themselves..counter-control or something.

It actually sounds like some level of conditioning. His automatic response to your running in was to DJ back because he felt safe and you weren't always punishing him for it. When you ran up to him and WDd down the last time, his knee-jerk reaction was to DJ back, but your wait made it far easier for you to just position yourself properly and punish it. (Also, I like that you fair'd where he'd be after the DJ. I tell a lot of people it looks like they're putting moves where they are instead of where they should be. Just a personal note.)

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee This is such a strange phenomenon, I was playing a Luigi, and he would double jump back whenever I came close to him and double jumped to try and Fair him. It was a weird pattern that lasted for about 3 seconds or so, the Fairs would sometimes miss and he'd be safe, but my last approach in this pattern was I literally just dashed in, wavedashed in place or something(Observe...!?), and he still did the double jump back! I was able to put out my Fair where he'd be after the double jump and it hit this time! What is this strange power!?

And to add a question for the sake of the thread...What's really interesting though is how you can make these things work on very good players. How is this? It seems hard to have a sense of control against players who will most likely be looking to control situations themselves..counter-control or something.

It's really the same thing just with a more developed sense of fundamentals and situational understanding. That feeling you had is the start!

 

[Kopaka]

It's really the same thing just with a more developed sense of fundamentals and situational understanding. That feeling you had is the start!

So it's more or less the same concept across all levels of skill, just executed in a way that works against more skilled players. A certain level of those fundamentals and situational understandings would be required to compete with stronger players. You improve by first understanding how those 2 things work at your current level, and you move up from there.

 

[Tee ay eye]

We are so close to this thread being on page 420

 

[AirFair]

It is that good.

 

[Siccamende]

Will my comment be the one to push this thread to the elusive 420? What do you think Dr Peepee ?