Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[TAG$]

Is it more optimal to use c stick for airials with Marth rather than analog mainly in the spacies match ups since the window for say uair chains are more precise?

 

[capusa27]

Dr Peepee

Sorry if this has been asked before:

After Smash Summit 1, you said that Pikachu should be zoned with forward air and down tilt. Would forward tilt mixups keep Pikachu more honest about approaching at low percents?

This relates to my next question: What did you think about PPU vs Axe at CEO?

Does PPU have the correct methodology?

What has changed about PPU's punish and zoning game over the years vs Pikachu?

Sorry for the many questions. Thank you.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee

Sorry if this has been asked before:

After Smash Summit 1, you said that Pikachu should be zoned with forward air and down tilt. Would forward tilt mixups keep Pikachu more honest about approaching at low percents?

This relates to my next question: What did you think about PPU vs Axe at CEO?

Does PPU have the correct methodology?

What has changed about PPU's punish and zoning game over the years vs Pikachu?

Sorry for the many questions. Thank you.

Ftilt isn't the answer but PS grab and pivot shield grab are both useful in case of overshoots by Nair.

Rewatched the first bit of the first match to make sure I felt this way, but I think Axe has been playing pretty bad for a while and it was more of that at CEO. I have a feeling PPU has changed some stuff but that doesn't stand out to me nearly as much while watching.

Maybe PPU has some correct methodology, but regardless he needs to develop his game further.

PPU gets more off of Uthrow now?

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

As a Falco main, I would like to know what most marths do against lasers. They seem To deal with them pretty well IMO, thoughts Dr Peepee

 

[IFC Jigglypuff]

Dr Peepee

Do you think Marth v Jigglypuff on DL64 is winnable for Marth? If so how do you fight her on this stage?

I don't play Peach v Jiggs, and I find it really hard to kill her on DL with Marth @ high percents. I also don't like playing the puff ditto since I haven't played puff in melee in 3+ years.

EDIT: Spelling

 

[Kuryoku]

Hey, PP. What did you think of your boy Cactuar vs. M2K at EVO? With regards to the thread title, what did you think about their Marth ditto? What could Cactuar have done against those fsmash edgeguards?

Here's the VOD of the match in question: www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqKG_JcGkCI&t=4m50s

Cactus couldn't punish and M2K could, Cactus should be watched for his neutral in this set and M2K for his punish.

You can tech the Fsmashes.

I watched this VoD just now to get an idea of what you guys were talking about and I found one aspect that seemed very crucial in Cactuar's defeat: His fear when at the far end of the stage/ledge. (To be fair, he is playing M2K)

If you watch only the first stock, you may come out thinking he's doing fine at the edge, he's been getting out of there. In reality though, he used roll to escape and was not punished accordingly. In the subsequent stocks, M2K started reading these rolls and this is when you start to see Cactuar feel lost. Cactuar looks flustered in the corner as he continues to try to roll after being punished. He then begins to SH a lot and gets caught in a DJ to lose his 3rd* stock I believe.

Of course, M2K did a great job punishing Cactuar with grabs that lead to great follow ups and the edge guards you guys mentioned.

It's also important to note how when M2K was put into that same situation around 6minutes in-game, he did not choke up and instead was very proactive in regaining control. (I think at this point M2K was super confident and was fine taking the risk though.)

 

[Dr Peepee]

As a Falco main, I would like to know what most marths do against lasers. They seem To deal with them pretty well IMO, thoughts Dr Peepee

Most Marths just try to powershield or dash attack under them. Some may also get on a platform and runoff fair when Falco gets close.

Honestly as a Falco player if you just have patience you'll do a lot better vs Marths.

Dr Peepee

Do you think Marth v Jigglypuff on DL64 is winnable for Marth? If so how do you fight her on this stage?

I don't play Peach v Jiggs, and I find it really hard to kill her on DL with Marth @ high percents. I also don't like playing the puff ditto since I haven't played puff in melee in 3+ years.

EDIT: Spelling

It's absolutely winnable for Marth there. Marth-Puff sucks for Puff lol. It's only good for him if you work on Marth a lot though so you may want to try Fox or some other matchup if you're just CP'ing.

You pivot grab her Bair unless she fades full away(grab attempt is still safe though), you Fair her out of the air and occasionally Dtilt her on the ground, and timing your dashes with her jumps works pretty well in my experience. You just need to make sure you have throw pivot Fsmash setups OR good juggle setups into Utilt/Fsmash OR good edgeguards to keep her from living forever/getting good damage while she isn't dying. The more of those things you have the better.

Count her jumps.

I watched this VoD just now to get an idea of what you guys were talking about and I found one aspect that seemed very crucial in Cactuar's defeat: His fear when at the far end of the stage/ledge. (To be fair, he is playing M2K)

If you watch only the first stock, you may come out thinking he's doing fine at the edge, he's been getting out of there. In reality though, he used roll to escape and was not punished accordingly. In the subsequent stocks, M2K started reading these rolls and this is when you start to see Cactuar feel lost. Cactuar looks flustered in the corner as he continues to try to roll after being punished. He then begins to SH a lot and gets caught in a DJ to lose his 3rd* stock I believe.

Of course, M2K did a great job punishing Cactuar with grabs that lead to great follow ups and the edge guards you guys mentioned.

It's also important to note how when M2K was put into that same situation around 6minutes in-game, he did not choke up and instead was very proactive in regaining control. (I think at this point M2K was super confident and was fine taking the risk though.)

When people start losing, they stop doing things that work as they usually lose confidence in their play. Those that are winning feel more confidence since things are going well. This is why people should take advantage of the respawn platform to mentally reset themselves to move past any lack of confidence they would have had in the previous stock.

 

[IFC Jigglypuff]

Most Marths just try to powershield or dash attack under them. Some may also get on a platform and runoff fair when Falco gets close.

Honestly as a Falco player if you just have patience you'll do a lot better vs Marths.


It's absolutely winnable for Marth there. Marth-Puff sucks for Puff lol. It's only good for him if you work on Marth a lot though so you may want to try Fox or some other matchup if you're just CP'ing.

You pivot grab her Bair unless she fades full away(grab attempt is still safe though), you Fair her out of the air and occasionally Dtilt her on the ground, and timing your dashes with her jumps works pretty well in my experience. You just need to make sure you have throw pivot Fsmash setups OR good juggle setups into Utilt/Fsmash OR good edgeguards to keep her from living forever/getting good damage while she isn't dying. The more of those things you have the better.

Count her jumps.


When people start losing, they stop doing things that work as they usually lose confidence in their play. Those that are winning feel more confidence since things are going well. This is why people should take advantage of the respawn platform to mentally reset themselves to move past any lack of confidence they would have had in the previous stock.

Yeah I know it's good for Marth its just hard to practice since there aren't many puffs in my area. plus she lives forever on that stage which doesn't help much.

Thank you for the reply.

 

[FE_Hector]

Dr Peepee What do you think of Mango's use of Shield Breaker? I saw a number of instances (especially at Summit 1.5) where his Marth would be running away from Armada's Peach, and Armada would shield once Mango was airborne, so he just retaliated with a Shield Breaker. He's even gotten a few actual breaks off of it before.

 

[Hunybear]

Dr Peepee
So i'm dreadfully bad at the Marth ditto. I have good ground movement and create lots of openings but the problem is definitely with how i use the openings. How should i apporch the punish game in this MU. Getting D-tilted out of me d-tilt or Faired out of my Fair is very jarring for me. I don't really understand the combo game in this MU. This forces me to play a very juggle heavy punish game because i cant get my combo's started until i bait out the DJ. This draws the match out and give more opportunities for my opponent to cheese me out. I'm studying video's of mid and high level Marth's and it all seems to be a poke and bait game, but as many times as i win neutral it's doesn't lead to kills. I see good Marths primarily placing their attacks to nip at Marths feel which is something i should work on. Grabbing is my go to when starting the combo and tech chases is the only way i set up for edge guards and get kills. I don't ever go to FD because i rely so heavily on platform tech chases.

On a other note how should i go about incorporating shield stops in my game. I've started using them in the Falcon MU to force them to land high nairs on shield but aside from that i feel shield stop aerials are only zoning tools.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee What do you think of Mango's use of Shield Breaker? I saw a number of instances (especially at Summit 1.5) where his Marth would be running away from Armada's Peach, and Armada would shield once Mango was airborne, so he just retaliated with a Shield Breaker. He's even gotten a few actual breaks off of it before.

I think it's good, but only if you can win the next exchange. I prefer to just keep a strong advantage of position to get a better punish, but Mango is someone who prefers shield pressure. I don't think Marth is a pressure character in that way but he is making it work decently well.

Dr Peepee
So i'm dreadfully bad at the Marth ditto. I have good ground movement and create lots of openings but the problem is definitely with how i use the openings. How should i apporch the punish game in this MU. Getting D-tilted out of me d-tilt or Faired out of my Fair is very jarring for me. I don't really understand the combo game in this MU. This forces me to play a very juggle heavy punish game because i cant get my combo's started until i bait out the DJ. This draws the match out and give more opportunities for my opponent to cheese me out. I'm studying video's of mid and high level Marth's and it all seems to be a poke and bait game, but as many times as i win neutral it's doesn't lead to kills. I see good Marths primarily placing their attacks to nip at Marths feel which is something i should work on. Grabbing is my go to when starting the combo and tech chases is the only way i set up for edge guards and get kills. I don't ever go to FD because i rely so heavily on platform tech chases.

On a other note how should i go about incorporating shield stops in my game. I've started using them in the Falcon MU to force them to land high nairs on shield but aside from that i feel shield stop aerials are only zoning tools.

Tipper the Dtilt and you'll be fine. Tipper the Fair at lower percents to avoid getting fair'd.

If you're focusing on juggling and don't want to go to FD, then you need to change your juggling strategy. Juggling is very strong there.

 

[ridemyboat]

Dr Peepee , I'm making rules for myself to play by in terms of spacing. One set of rules that I'm thinking through now is:

1. Dash dance about a battlefield length away from Peach while she doesn't have a turnip.
2. Dash dance closer if you think they'll pull a turnip or that you can beat their defensive option.
3. Mix 2 up by dash dancing further away to get them to stop dash attacking.
4. Use wavedash dtilt to get them to shield and increase the safety in doing 2.

The reasoning behind 1 is that this is the spacing where Peach can dash attack you, but if you expect it then you can react to it with shield. It also is too far away for Peach to nair/fair or grab. It's also close enough to wavedash in and dtilt, grab or fsmash.

In general, do you think that this is a constructive way for me to go about developing my Marth?

 

[Hmus]

Dr Peepee What are your thoughts on this video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGG2lvHZn60 (specifically Dfox's thoughts on the Marth vs. Falcon matchup.)

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee , I'm making rules for myself to play by in terms of spacing. One set of rules that I'm thinking through now is:

1. Dash dance about a battlefield length away from Peach while she doesn't have a turnip.
2. Dash dance closer if you think they'll pull a turnip or that you can beat their defensive option.
3. Mix 2 up by dash dancing further away to get them to stop dash attacking.
4. Use wavedash dtilt to get them to shield and increase the safety in doing 2.

The reasoning behind 1 is that this is the spacing where Peach can dash attack you, but if you expect it then you can react to it with shield. It also is too far away for Peach to nair/fair or grab. It's also close enough to wavedash in and dtilt, grab or fsmash.

In general, do you think that this is a constructive way for me to go about developing my Marth?

1. assuming you mean battlefield platform, sure i think.
2. and 3. more or less
4. also useful during turnip pull

Peach's dash attack range is smaller than your WD Dtilt range. Get into Dtilt threat range but outside dash attack range and fight there.

Anyway you can develop that way, but you'll have to be very critical as you develop and also look for exceptions to the rules eventually.

Dr Peepee What are your thoughts on this video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGG2lvHZn60 (specifically Dfox's thoughts on the Marth vs. Falcon matchup.)

Never watched it and it's too long to be encouraging to watch lol.

I think he says Marth beats Falcon somewhere in here, which is reasonably possible. If you want to timestamp his arguments I'll listen to them.

 

[Roche_CL]

Hey guys, have anyone seen N0ne lose to any marth? I watched sets against PewpewU, The Moon and Nightmare and they all lost. Ppu even switched to fox at GOML. I wanna learn the matchup, and the best marth in the business is Dart Imo (he have some wins against wizzrobe).
What do you guys think? is n0ne too good for the matchup? is the matchup that hard/impossible?
He's going to Astra and there's a chance that I'm gonna encounter him xd

 

[ridemyboat]

1. assuming you mean battlefield platform, sure i think.
2. and 3. more or less
4. also useful during turnip pull

Peach's dash attack range is smaller than your WD Dtilt range. Get into Dtilt threat range but outside dash attack range and fight there.

Anyway you can develop that way, but you'll have to be very critical as you develop and also look for exceptions to the rules eventually.

Never watched it and it's too long to be encouraging to watch lol.

I think he says Marth beats Falcon somewhere in here, which is reasonably possible. If you want to timestamp his arguments I'll listen to them.

Yes, I meant battlefield platform length. Thanks, this is helpful.

For dfox's argument that Marth is Falcon's worst matchup, these were his points:

1. Gimps favor marth
2. Marth can tech chase falcon until 50
3. Marth has strong followups off of up-throw and f-throw
4. Falcon's upair isn't that good because Marth can cc it on Platforms, and generally Falcon's best option against cc is stomp or grab.
5. Marth has escape options from down-throw at low percent because he can di in and sdi the nair, and Falcon has to go for a read to do a full hop nair
6. Marth can shut down Falcon's air game from the ground with side-b

The vod was more a list of points of things that Marth can do, and he did say that Marth beats Falcon, but he never really made an argument for why thats the case. I took it to be more tongue-in-cheek, because there was previous discussion about how nobody really knows who the best character is or which character beats which character.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yes, I meant battlefield platform length. Thanks, this is helpful.

For dfox's argument that Marth is Falcon's worst matchup, these were his points:

1. Gimps favor marth
2. Marth can tech chase falcon until 50
3. Marth has strong followups off of up-throw and f-throw
4. Falcon's upair isn't that good because Marth can cc it on Platforms, and generally Falcon's best option against cc is stomp or grab.
5. Marth has escape options from down-throw at low percent because he can di in and sdi the nair, and Falcon has to go for a read to do a full hop nair
6. Marth can shut down Falcon's air game from the ground with side-b

The vod was more a list of points of things that Marth can do, and he did say that Marth beats Falcon, but he never really made an argument for why thats the case. I took it to be more tongue-in-cheek, because there was previous discussion about how nobody really knows who the best character is or which character beats which character.

His WORST matchup? I really don't see Marth being worse than Falco for Falcon but Druggedfox has changed my opinion on some things before.

1. Maybe, but the risk on them also sucks. I also think people underestimate Falcon's edgeguards on Marth, which are pretty brutal.

2. Tech chasing Falcon isn't necessarily hard but tech chasing in itself is just leaving a lot of room for error. Often goes into reaction-burning scenarios or in this case one of those gimp setups. I wouldn't say the tech chase can go that long on average but it's nice to know how long it's possible under certain circumstances.

3. Sure, but Falcon can do the same thing for 4 that Marth can do to him. I don't know the intricacies well enough to know who benefits more in this comparison.

4. This would work more at early percents up to maybe like 40 or so, because then Marth is just getting edgeguarded no matter what he holds which sucks for him. Maybe that's longer than Falcon can meaningfully do it to Marth, or maybe Marth can also get good punishes off of platform setups. Not immediately convinced though.

5. Potentially beatable with Falcon practice/various setups, but I'll concede that makes Falcon's life harder for sure. I don't think Marth's throw game on Falcon before 10% is very good either though, but I think Falcon's Dthrow problem on Marth extends decently past that.

6. That kind of works for me but I also find myself trading more than I'd expect with this option. It can be a bit tough to punish Falcon off of the side B as well, so risk of trading with a Falcon aerial becomes not too great as I understand it. If this can be worked around to be made true, then that does significantly hurt Falcon and is a very good point.

If some things can be fleshed out in these points or proven more reasonably, I'd say Marth could be one of Falcon's worst matchups. I still don't think it would be worse than Falco though.

 

[-ACE-]

I don't want to sound cliché but fox is probably the worst at top level despite his short roll. For the other 3 top tiers, anything is arguable, but I'd put Falco as worse than Marth too. Sheik is debatable, because (briefly), she punishes falcon slightly more than Marth but Marth has better neutral.

 

[ridemyboat]

His WORST matchup? I really don't see Marth being worse than Falco for Falcon but Druggedfox has changed my opinion on some things before.

1. Maybe, but the risk on them also sucks. I also think people underestimate Falcon's edgeguards on Marth, which are pretty brutal.

2. Tech chasing Falcon isn't necessarily hard but tech chasing in itself is just leaving a lot of room for error. Often goes into reaction-burning scenarios or in this case one of those gimp setups. I wouldn't say the tech chase can go that long on average but it's nice to know how long it's possible under certain circumstances.

3. Sure, but Falcon can do the same thing for 4 that Marth can do to him. I don't know the intricacies well enough to know who benefits more in this comparison.

4. This would work more at early percents up to maybe like 40 or so, because then Marth is just getting edgeguarded no matter what he holds which sucks for him. Maybe that's longer than Falcon can meaningfully do it to Marth, or maybe Marth can also get good punishes off of platform setups. Not immediately convinced though.

5. Potentially beatable with Falcon practice/various setups, but I'll concede that makes Falcon's life harder for sure. I don't think Marth's throw game on Falcon before 10% is very good either though, but I think Falcon's Dthrow problem on Marth extends decently past that.

6. That kind of works for me but I also find myself trading more than I'd expect with this option. It can be a bit tough to punish Falcon off of the side B as well, so risk of trading with a Falcon aerial becomes not too great as I understand it. If this can be worked around to be made true, then that does significantly hurt Falcon and is a very good point.

If some things can be fleshed out in these points or proven more reasonably, I'd say Marth could be one of Falcon's worst matchups. I still don't think it would be worse than Falco though.

Yeah, Marth being Falcon's worst matchup is his claim.

To expand on 6, one thing he pointed out was that:

1. You side b Falcon
2. Since Falcon's aerials are too slow, his best options are shield or jump.
3. If you read the jump, you get a juggle on Falcon with no double jump. If you read the shield, you get a grab / tech chase.

Falcon can still roll, in which case you have a reset if you went for grab. This option is probably strongest at mid percent because of fair followups, and weakest at low percent.

I suspect that Falcon could SDI the side b down to get lower faster, to get a jab or grab. Side b just isn't that free.

 

[-ACE-]

One funny thing is if Marth whiffs a rising sh fair at any point, with fast reactions out of DD falcon is guaranteed a side-b, which will hit between the fairs/before he touches ground. Works with Ganon too. Literally no one does it and it can often start a death combo.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I don't think Marth's rising fair is reactable with a raptor boost. Falcon usually does it either as soon as they see Marth jump, hoping that the Marth swings too early, or react to Marth landing with a f-air by using the raptor boost wind up to dodge the hitbox.

 

[Sundark]

Oh what the heck. So PP I sent you a tweet the other day that I figured might go unanswered, but I sent it because the person I was asking on behalf of said you hadn't responded to this thread in a long time. Since evidently this isn't correct, I'll add it here:

Anybody else of course can feel free to throw suggestions as well. Also I will vouch for him destroying us lol. It's kind of weird, you watch him play the game and he's super untouchable, will combo anything into anything, covers every option etc., but ask him stuff like frame data and he won't know random-but-important things (like grab) and says he plays based on reads.

I asked what he was looking for specifically and it was basically this, and that he's just looking to be able to improve more, be able to adapt faster, since he knows he'll need more when he starts going out of region.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Maybe Druggedfox has done some Marth critique videos. You could ask him. I haven't done anything yet unfortunately.

 

[1Twinmuduck]

So I play my friends Fox a lot with my Marth and everytime In a good position to get a Ken combo or a good finisher off a fair chain he just full DIs away and I can't really get good finisher to take the stock. I noticed Armadas Fox do the same thing a few times vs your Marth at Apex 2015. Any good ideas on how to punish away DI vs Fox in this situation or should I just take the edge guard?

 

[FE_Hector]

So I play my friends Fox a lot with my Marth and everytime In a good position to get a Ken combo or a good finisher off a fair chain he just full DIs away and I can't really get good finisher to take the stock. I noticed Armadas Fox do the same thing a few times vs your Marth at Apex 2015. Any good ideas on how to punish away DI vs Fox in this situation or should I just take the edge guard?

You could probably just nair instead as a mixup so he DIs the nair away offstage and sets you up for an edgeguard.

 

[Dr Peepee]

So I play my friends Fox a lot with my Marth and everytime In a good position to get a Ken combo or a good finisher off a fair chain he just full DIs away and I can't really get good finisher to take the stock. I noticed Armadas Fox do the same thing a few times vs your Marth at Apex 2015. Any good ideas on how to punish away DI vs Fox in this situation or should I just take the edge guard?

Just Fsmash instead of Fair depending on where you are in the combo. If you're close enough to the edge, any spikes they DI away will also be good for you.

Edit: Oh yeah, if you're not sure what they will do/can't get there in time, let them jump out. You can Fair/Bair/Uair them then and get a great punish anyway.

I wasn't focused well enough to punish at Apex 2015 so that's not a great combo blueprint =p

 

[Pawner]

Hey Marth guys, so I have major trouble with projectiles. In my local scene there is a Link, a Mario, and multiple falco's. The worst however is a peach player. I have no idea how to deal with projectiles. I know that I can jab or fair and it negates them, or shield even, but I always get punished. What do I do?

 

[-ACE-]

I don't think Marth's rising fair is reactable with a raptor boost. Falcon usually does it either as soon as they see Marth jump, hoping that the Marth swings too early, or react to Marth landing with a f-air by using the raptor boost wind up to dodge the hitbox.

I don't think, I know. But my reactions are pretty fast, I can cg fox as Ganon at mid%

Trust in masta Ace.

 

[Quiteballin]

Yo, I've been struggling with a few things as sword guy. Thanks for being active on this thread pp.

1. Against spacies

Platform Camping: If they top platform camp me (especially dreamland. doesn't really affect me much on yoshis cause i can get up there a bit better.) I feel like i'm just waiting for them to come down. If I go try to poke at them I feel like they just evade it and either punish or let the situation reset where I have control over center stage but have little to no pressure on the space above me that they are hopping around on. I feel like i have less control when they platform camp, than in a grounded neutral situation where neither of us have a big advantage. Obvious answer is go put an upair on em (punish them for poor stage control) but it seems a lot of times thats not possible because of marths lack of ability to get up and down from covering the top platform quickly. If a spacie camps top platform and can shield drop after i hit their shield with an upair, it almost seems like they would effectively control center stage and the top platform all at once unless i guess when and where they are gonna come down from the platform. If i go up and waveland grab they could just drop and have center stage. Spacie vertical mobility > Marth vertical mobility. Any advice? I hate not feeling in control despite having center stage.

High Recoveries: If they (especially fox cause of how long his up-b is) begin their up b high (roughly horizontally on line with battlefield top platform but off stage) during an edgeguard situation I feel like if i don't get a read on exactly where they are going i wont get the edgeguard. One thing that happens often is I'll jump up to try and swat them out of their recovery but because they are so high, normally what happens is i get a tipper fair and the situation either gets reset or they can side-b back on before i can do anything about it. Are reads all that can save me here? Just seems like there are so many places they can go on stages with platforms in that situation.
​

2. Against puff (I struggle so much in this matchup)

I read where you said you should time dashes with a puff's jump. Can you elaborate a little more on that? What does that get you that untimed dashes don't get you?

What should I do when I get back air camped? I can't get a grab or really whiff punish someone that refuses to commit. What should be relied on to get me through the wall of bairs? Is camping puff back viable in the long run or is that only something that will work at a lower level? I don't wana start camping lower level puffs just to get to a good puff later and get destroyed.
​

For any of this anyone chooses to give their input on, thanks. have a good day, God bless.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yo, I've been struggling with a few things as sword guy. Thanks for being active on this thread pp.

1. Against spacies

Platform Camping: If they top platform camp me (especially dreamland. doesn't really affect me much on yoshis cause i can get up there a bit better.) I feel like i'm just waiting for them to come down. If I go try to poke at them I feel like they just evade it and either punish or let the situation reset where I have control over center stage but have little to no pressure on the space above me that they are hopping around on. I feel like i have less control when they platform camp, than in a grounded neutral situation where neither of us have a big advantage. Obvious answer is go put an upair on em (punish them for poor stage control) but it seems a lot of times thats not possible because of marths lack of ability to get up and down from covering the top platform quickly. If a spacie camps top platform and can shield drop after i hit their shield with an upair, it almost seems like they would effectively control center stage and the top platform all at once unless i guess when and where they are gonna come down from the platform. If i go up and waveland grab they could just drop and have center stage. Spacie vertical mobility > Marth vertical mobility. Any advice? I hate not feeling in control despite having center stage.

High Recoveries: If they (especially fox cause of how long his up-b is) begin their up b high (roughly horizontally on line with battlefield top platform but off stage) during an edgeguard situation I feel like if i don't get a read on exactly where they are going i wont get the edgeguard. One thing that happens often is I'll jump up to try and swat them out of their recovery but because they are so high, normally what happens is i get a tipper fair and the situation either gets reset or they can side-b back on before i can do anything about it. Are reads all that can save me here? Just seems like there are so many places they can go on stages with platforms in that situation.
​

2. Against puff (I struggle so much in this matchup)

I read where you said you should time dashes with a puff's jump. Can you elaborate a little more on that? What does that get you that untimed dashes don't get you?

What should I do when I get back air camped? I can't get a grab or really whiff punish someone that refuses to commit. What should be relied on to get me through the wall of bairs? Is camping puff back viable in the long run or is that only something that will work at a lower level? I don't wana start camping lower level puffs just to get to a good puff later and get destroyed.
​

For any of this anyone chooses to give their input on, thanks. have a good day, God bless.

1.
Platform Camping: This also matters somewhat on BF.
Anyway, just SH under them and dash occasionally. DJ Uair/Bair/Fair to swat them and make them stop doing what they're doing and fight you. If not you can just eventually hit them a few times and start sending them far with those hits and they lose the position anyway. Remember, you don't HAVE to swing though, so don't rush the situation.
Also yeah, spacies can threaten much of the level from platforms. Luckily Marth can threaten the air from the ground well.

High Recoveries: Depends on their starting point horizontally to a meaningful extent. Edgeguarding is something you can still manipulate them during, so if you dash toward the middle with a little time left, then they will probably not go toward the middle and you can WD back toward the edge and punish. That's just one example of course.
Anyway, I like to take a position maybe a full WD away from the edge in those situations. If they go at you, you have time to react. If they go straight to the side, you're already closer to their ending position. If they go the edge, you can dash WD there in time. So basically, consider manipulation and starting position for both yourself and your opponent.

2. When puff weaves in, you weave out. When she weaves back out, then you dash in. This process requires slow dashes. If you begin subtly adjusting your position during this time you can get closer and Fair/Nair Puff.

You can pivot grab her Bair unless she full spaces and full drifts away on the Bair. You can also run in on her landing if you have a read and Nair and catch her jumping out of lag if you have a good position. You can also WD Dtilt her landing if she waits. A big thing though is don't consider her Bair to be ALWAYS out like so many players(even very good ones) do. Bair has real lag on it(pick Puff and see for yourself) so she can't always be throwing it out. This means you can find ways in where she has a lull in action. Patience and observation are key.

If you want to camp her you probably can if you use platforms, but I don't think it's necessary at all.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Hi thread! (I'll post here from now on lol)

What do you think of full jumps in the neutral game?

I'm mainly refering to scenarios where you are in their threat zone and staying where you are is not safe, so the usual response would be either some attack or giving up space. The full jump moves out of the way, has more landing options (talking mostly about BF or DL here, maybe also YS or Fountain) than the short hop which could be whiffpunished way easier. The exception is probably the Fox matchup because his up-air makes anything in high air very complicated.
The scenario also requires that you have enough threat at the beginning that dashing under you without throwing anything out is dangerous for them (so for example not OoS).

Any thoughts?

 

[ChivalRuse]

Hey Marth guys, so I have major trouble with projectiles. In my local scene there is a Link, a Mario, and multiple falco's. The worst however is a peach player. I have no idea how to deal with projectiles. I know that I can jab or fair and it negates them, or shield even, but I always get punished. What do I do?

If you crouch, and d-tilt, you will catch Peach's turnip super easily. It's already fairly easy to time. Catching and z-dropping has its place in neutral depending on whether Peach is in range to dash attack. But if she wants to set up f-air pressure you can usually catch, z-drop and get out unscathed.

 

[{Lemons}]

Hi thread! (I'll post here from now on lol)

What do you think of full jumps in the neutral game?

I'm mainly refering to scenarios where you are in their threat zone and staying where you are is not safe, so the usual response would be either some attack or giving up space. The full jump moves out of the way, has more landing options (talking mostly about BF or DL here, maybe also YS or Fountain) than the short hop which could be whiffpunished way easier. The exception is probably the Fox matchup because his up-air makes anything in high air very complicated.
The scenario also requires that you have enough threat at the beginning that dashing under you without throwing anything out is dangerous for them (so for example not OoS).

Any thoughts?

If you full hop like that it should be easy to react to considering you are already in their threat zone and Marth's full hop takes a long time. Adding to that is that generally Marth wants to be below not above as his down air is not that great coming down, especially compared to his other aerials, and his air speed is subpar (pretty much every character is except Jigglypuff). Keep in mind that full hopping does give up space, albeit in a different manner than dashing away from an opponent. Even if your opponent can't directly punish your full hop due to their jump not being fast/high enough to catch you, they can still punish by securing positional advantage which then puts you in the position of being up in the air as Marth without stage control.

There probably is a use to this I am overlooking but I don't think this is a good option generally speaking. Those are my two cents anyway.

 

[AirFair]

yo Dr Peepee I wanted to strengthen my understanding of shielding in neutral, since there have been times when I would get hit for trying things in situations where I need to shield to avoid being hit. I have come up with few rules for myself, that come from watching you play, since your neutral is, in my opinion, the best :D

1. When going for a grab and missing, I usually shield in anticipation of a counterattack, since I believe that shield would cover mostly everything EXCEPT for getting grabbed yourself, which could happen whether you shield or not. The more important scenario that I'm still thinking about is below.

2. If I'm in the corner, and I don't have much space to dash around things, when an opponent gets to where I'm fully in their most threatening range (Ex. Fox dashing towards me and I'm in nair range without a way to dash around it comfortably), I would probably want to put up shield. I wanted to ask you if you used shield more reactively, since I think a key point of the neutral I have come to study from you is that you don't ever want to be stuck in shield when the opponent has free reign over how they can attack you.

What are your thoughts on proper shield usage in neutral? Are there other scenarios where shield is effective BEFORE you are punished?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I'm a big proponent of shielding as little as possible with Marth. His OOS options suck, and he distorts his hurtbox when dashing and somewhat when WD'ing so you still have good alternatives. Most Marths shield too much when they get a little off balance, and that's simply not something you can afford to do with the character.

Now of course, you'll need it more when cornered(experiment with platforms to get out though, watch Cactus vids for that) and other times when you are pretty certain an attack is coming. I'm not a huge fan of it though.

To make this a little more interesting, let's remember a cool way Mango uses shield. He dashes in and shields to catch people doing high aerials on shield they tried to set up from farther away, or shields briefly on wakeup to make his opponent get into position to punish the setup. So in these ways, we turn a disadvantage tool into an advantage one. This is not something I currently do but it is something I wish to experiment with and understand more. I'm sure with good testing people can find some great uses on their own.

 

[-ACE-]

I like the way PPU uses shield stop nair in certain situations for safer/more precise spacing when he reads an approach.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I like the way PPU uses shield stop nair in certain situations for safer/more precise spacing when he reads an approach.

What exactly is the use of the shield in that situation? Is it to block an early attack or just a way to control the jump momentum?
If it is the latter, why wouldn't one just hold backwards on the last jumpsquat frame to accomplish the same effect?

 

[-ACE-]

What exactly is the use of the shield in that situation? Is it to block an early attack or just a way to control the jump momentum?
If it is the latter, why wouldn't one just hold backwards on the last jumpsquat frame to accomplish the same effect?

You can drift farther back as there is no forward momentum to fight. You can drift back sooner as well for better spacing if your timing isn't perfect. You're essentially jumping straight up with backwards influence versus jumping forward with backwards influence.

 

[capusa27]

I'm a big proponent of shielding as little as possible with Marth. His OOS options suck, and he distorts his hurtbox when dashing and somewhat when WD'ing so you still have good alternatives. Most Marths shield too much when they get a little off balance, and that's simply not something you can afford to do with the character.

Now of course, you'll need it more when cornered(experiment with platforms to get out though, watch Cactus vids for that) and other times when you are pretty certain an attack is coming. I'm not a huge fan of it though.

To make this a little more interesting, let's remember a cool way Mango uses shield. He dashes in and shields to catch people doing high aerials on shield they tried to set up from farther away, or shields briefly on wakeup to make his opponent get into position to punish the setup. So in these ways, we turn a disadvantage tool into an advantage one. This is not something I currently do but it is something I wish to experiment with and understand more. I'm sure with good testing people can find some great uses on their own.

What are your thoughts about shielding with Marth vs Pikachu? I would think that shield pivoting would shut down Pikachu's neutral air overshoots because Marth could more easily pressure the landing lag with forward air out of shield, or wavedash down tilt out of shield, or grab out of shield.

Because of this, I would assume that zoning Pikachu would be much easier because you could focus on fairing Pikachu from the front since Pikachu won't be pressuring Marth constantly with Nair to Uair or grab. Thoughts.

Note: I am very interested in Marth's more questionable lower tier matchups.

 

[Dr Peepee]

What are your thoughts about shielding with Marth vs Pikachu? I would think that shield pivoting would shut down Pikachu's neutral air overshoots because Marth could more easily pressure the landing lag with forward air out of shield, or wavedash down tilt out of shield, or grab out of shield.

Because of this, I would assume that zoning Pikachu would be much easier because you could focus on fairing Pikachu from the front since Pikachu won't be pressuring Marth constantly with Nair to Uair or grab. Thoughts.

Note: I am very interested in Marth's more questionable lower tier matchups.

I saw Arc do some cool dash shield to shield grab the crossup Nair. I imagine you can do this or Fair a front-hitting Nair on reaction, but I haven't actually sat down and worked out if that's real or not. You could also PS to get the pushback from it and grab Pikachu in front of you I suppose.

You don't want to shield Nair if you can't punish it though because then Pikachu can be all over you.