Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Hat N' Clogs]

Greetings, Dr. Peepee! I've watched you for a while, and I must say that you are one of my favorite Melee players of all time. I really enjoy watching both your Marth and your Falco.

My questions are: I'm thinking about picking up Marth as a counterpick in order for tough matchups. I mean, I love Fox and Falco, but I think Marth will be better strategically for me personally since he has less of a learning curve, and I don't want to spend too much time practicing hard tech. Anything I need to know about Marth before I start using him as a counterpick character? Also, why did you pick up Marth in order to complement your Falco? I'm curious.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Greetings, Dr. Peepee! I've watched you for a while, and I must say that you are one of my favorite Melee players of all time. I really enjoy watching both your Marth and your Falco.

My questions are: I'm thinking about picking up Marth as a counterpick in order for tough matchups. I mean, I love Fox and Falco, but I think Marth will be better strategically for me personally since he has less of a learning curve, and I don't want to spend too much time practicing hard tech. Anything I need to know about Marth before I start using him as a counterpick character? Also, why did you pick up Marth in order to complement your Falco? I'm curious.

Marth gets no freebies as a character. You can't just put lots of time into tech or CG and start seeing way better results since he's a good mix of everything. Unless you're willing to put in the time(which I wouldn't recommend based on how you're currently approaching it) then don't play him. If you're going to pick him up anyway, be sure to exercise more patience than you would with spacies, meticulously work out your punishes and especially edgeguards + juggles for situations where you can struggle to kill, and don't waste movement or swings.

I never intended to pick up Marth seriously, it just kind of happened. Now that I improved him a lot though I find he buffers against bad play on FD and in general some, since Falco dies instantly if you're playing bad. Marth also made the Peach matchup way easier lol.

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

Marth gets no freebies as a character. You can't just put lots of time into tech or CG and start seeing way better results since he's a good mix of everything. Unless you're willing to put in the time(which I wouldn't recommend based on how you're currently approaching it) then don't play him. If you're going to pick him up anyway, be sure to exercise more patience than you would with spacies, meticulously work out your punishes and especially edgeguards + juggles for situations where you can struggle to kill, and don't waste movement or swings.

I never intended to pick up Marth seriously, it just kind of happened. Now that I improved him a lot though I find he buffers against bad play on FD and in general some, since Falco dies instantly if you're playing bad. Marth also made the Peach matchup way easier lol.

Ah, ok. Thank you for the advice! I really appreciate it.
And yeah- Peach vs. Marth seems much easier than Peach vs. Falco lol

 

[Greyson]

How does one go about practicing with Marth alone? You've mentioned in the past that solo practice is a crucial element towards improvement, but I'm not sure what else I'm supposed to do aside from drilling techniques and theoycrafting. Will you make a video that elaborates on this soon?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

To make this a little more interesting, let's remember a cool way Mango uses shield. He dashes in and shields to catch people doing high aerials on shield they tried to set up from farther away, or shields briefly on wakeup to make his opponent get into position to punish the setup. So in these ways, we turn a disadvantage tool into an advantage one. This is not something I currently do but it is something I wish to experiment with and understand more. I'm sure with good testing people can find some great uses on their own.

What would be clues significant enough to warrant putting up a shield if you look out for high aerials? It seems it would give up a lot of positioning if the opponent decides to move forward without committing to anything.
To make the maneouvre an objectively sound choice would require conditions that encourage an aerly earial, while scaring the opponent away from aggressive movement.
The exception would be being cornered already, because then you have nothing to lose, in a way. But if it is only this situation, it would again boil down to the conclusion that shielding is only recommended in already bad spots or if you condition your opponent accordingly.

 

[Dr Peepee]

How does one go about practicing with Marth alone? You've mentioned in the past that solo practice is a crucial element towards improvement, but I'm not sure what else I'm supposed to do aside from drilling techniques and theoycrafting. Will you make a video that elaborates on this soon?

I'll make one when I'm better as I feel pretty bad people don't have that resource.

What would be clues significant enough to warrant putting up a shield if you look out for high aerials? It seems it would give up a lot of positioning if the opponent decides to move forward without committing to anything.
To make the maneouvre an objectively sound choice would require conditions that encourage an aerly earial, while scaring the opponent away from aggressive movement.
The exception would be being cornered already, because then you have nothing to lose, in a way. But if it is only this situation, it would again boil down to the conclusion that shielding is only recommended in already bad spots or if you condition your opponent accordingly.

You encourage aerials by moving forward and if they're a character/player that likes moving in with aerials. So we can guess it's pretty good vs spacies and maybe Falcon and Puff offhand.

I'd just say watch when Mango runs forward and shields and what he does if he doesn't get the aerial. Most of the time he just WDs back and loses nothing but gains information on how people respond to his forward movement.

 

[Kaoak]

I have a few questions for you about some of the finer points of playing Marth at a high level, I also will give my own perceptions and try to answer my own questions but I think your analysis would be helpful in case I have misconceptions or am missing key points.

1. What should you be trying to condition your opponent into doing as Marth, and how should you do it? Dashing forward seems like the strongest way to elicit a predictable response from an opponent who plays defensively, and can force them into spot dodging, shielding, jumping, attacking, or giving up space by wavedashing / dashing back (or even doing nothing). At the start of the game, if I dash dance in front of an opponent, should I focus on reacting to and punishing their initial response to my dash dance, or should I focus on gathering information on how they will likely respond to my dash dance in the future without committing too hard?

2. When would it be acceptable to follow up the aforementioned dash dance with either a swing, like a nair, fair or fsmash, or a grab? Should this be done to try to encourage a response from the opponent and gather information, develop their respect, or punish a habit, such as jumping when their space is encroached on.

3. I'm still not sure when I should be using dtilt. The move requires a reasonable amount of setup to be used, namely you cannot be dash dancing unless you are far enough away that you can comfortably enter a run animation. I find that I'm using dtilt too often and not spacing dtilt correctly because it is difficult to correctly space a wavedash dtilt or running dtilt against a moving opponent. I feel like I am not playing to the strengths of the move and I often feel like I'd be better off grabbing, how should I be using dtilt to play to its strengths.

I've seen you talk about dash dancing with a purpose, conditioning your opponent and using that information to make inferences on how an opponent will respond to your actions to make a high reward read. Do you have any resources that you've already posted on this perhaps with some common examples against some common characters and playstyles. I really am interested in improving as a solo marth player (I have been playing marth for just over 2 years) and am looking to level up my decision making / mindset from just the basic marth "I want to bait an approach and punish" mindset.

<3 <3 <3 PPMD Kreygasm

 

[PhotonSSBM]

Hey PP! I have a few problems with my play that I'm having a hard time ironing out.

Right now a lot of my conversions are super wimpy against players above my skill level because I throw out hotboxes that I am completely convinced should hit them, but they just straight up don't. Sometimes I think to myself, yeah that was never going to hit, but other times I think to myself, how did he have time to double jump/shield/spot dodge or what have you. I know the windows for platform chasing and combos in general are small, but if I'm unsure of whether or not something is going to hit, what should I do, and is there a way to speed up the process of being able to identify those combo/chase windows through practice.

Then there's the problem with my adaptation. Right now it takes me about an hour straight of playing someone to adjust to their play if they're better than me. Sometimes longer (it's really proportional to how good they are). A lot of this I believe to be that I don't really know what to look for when I'm playing someone, because I've just winged it since I started playing. Is their some sort of flow-chart way to assess how I need to adjust to a player, and is it something that can be documented and studied or is it something I'm just going to have to learn through practice?

Lastly, I have a really hard time playing against campy/super-duper-safe players. I have been told by others in my community that I need to approach and force them to engage, but a lot of problem one up above comes into play in that I usually flub and they just hit me. I also have a really hard time with platform camping in general and don't know how to deal with it at all, especially the top platform on dreamland.

Thanks a lot dude, you're a saint to this community.

 

[FE_Hector]

Dr Peepee Not specific to Marth, but I was wondering if you have any general tips for exerting more mental control while playing. I figure if anybody does, it's you.

Right now, I'm just figuring that whenever I play I need to just force myself to think about my decision making and how I can change my neutral to in order to win the next exchange, but the issue is that when I sit down, that all just... stops. I sit down thinking "I need to focus on how he's winning neutral right now" and in my play it more manifests itself in "throw out even more AC bairs (Falco) and be sure to trip him up with movement." It works sometimes, but becomes an issue when my default defense mechanism is to wavesurf away and it feels like I don't have any mixups past that.

It's even more frustrating because I can watch other peoples sets and think clearly about exactly how/why they lost most neutral situations, and I really feel like I oughtta be able to do this for myself while playing. Any tips would be SUPER appreciated.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I have a few questions for you about some of the finer points of playing Marth at a high level, I also will give my own perceptions and try to answer my own questions but I think your analysis would be helpful in case I have misconceptions or am missing key points.

1. What should you be trying to condition your opponent into doing as Marth, and how should you do it? Dashing forward seems like the strongest way to elicit a predictable response from an opponent who plays defensively, and can force them into spot dodging, shielding, jumping, attacking, or giving up space by wavedashing / dashing back (or even doing nothing). At the start of the game, if I dash dance in front of an opponent, should I focus on reacting to and punishing their initial response to my dash dance, or should I focus on gathering information on how they will likely respond to my dash dance in the future without committing too hard?

2. When would it be acceptable to follow up the aforementioned dash dance with either a swing, like a nair, fair or fsmash, or a grab? Should this be done to try to encourage a response from the opponent and gather information, develop their respect, or punish a habit, such as jumping when their space is encroached on.

3. I'm still not sure when I should be using dtilt. The move requires a reasonable amount of setup to be used, namely you cannot be dash dancing unless you are far enough away that you can comfortably enter a run animation. I find that I'm using dtilt too often and not spacing dtilt correctly because it is difficult to correctly space a wavedash dtilt or running dtilt against a moving opponent. I feel like I am not playing to the strengths of the move and I often feel like I'd be better off grabbing, how should I be using dtilt to play to its strengths.

I've seen you talk about dash dancing with a purpose, conditioning your opponent and using that information to make inferences on how an opponent will respond to your actions to make a high reward read. Do you have any resources that you've already posted on this perhaps with some common examples against some common characters and playstyles. I really am interested in improving as a solo marth player (I have been playing marth for just over 2 years) and am looking to level up my decision making / mindset from just the basic marth "I want to bait an approach and punish" mindset.

<3 <3 <3 PPMD Kreygasm

1. You want grabs, Fairs/Uair if they're in the air, and sometimes Utilt for your biggest punishes. So you need to find ways to land those moves. To get there, you'll often need Dtilt pokes as well as the ability to control your own space with Fair/Nair/Dtilt. A dash should carry the threat of Dtilt/grab approach or controlling your own space, and it's best when it's ambiguous.

2 and 3. see 1

Hey PP! I have a few problems with my play that I'm having a hard time ironing out.

Right now a lot of my conversions are super wimpy against players above my skill level because I throw out hotboxes that I am completely convinced should hit them, but they just straight up don't. Sometimes I think to myself, yeah that was never going to hit, but other times I think to myself, how did he have time to double jump/shield/spot dodge or what have you. I know the windows for platform chasing and combos in general are small, but if I'm unsure of whether or not something is going to hit, what should I do, and is there a way to speed up the process of being able to identify those combo/chase windows through practice.

Then there's the problem with my adaptation. Right now it takes me about an hour straight of playing someone to adjust to their play if they're better than me. Sometimes longer (it's really proportional to how good they are). A lot of this I believe to be that I don't really know what to look for when I'm playing someone, because I've just winged it since I started playing. Is their some sort of flow-chart way to assess how I need to adjust to a player, and is it something that can be documented and studied or is it something I'm just going to have to learn through practice?

Lastly, I have a really hard time playing against campy/super-duper-safe players. I have been told by others in my community that I need to approach and force them to engage, but a lot of problem one up above comes into play in that I usually flub and they just hit me. I also have a really hard time with platform camping in general and don't know how to deal with it at all, especially the top platform on dreamland.

Thanks a lot dude, you're a saint to this community.

If you want to learn to punish, don't reinvent the wheel. Look at how the good players do it and reverse engineer it. Figure out why they did what they did and why it was good. Think of the counter options the opponent could have chosen and why they didn't choose it. Look at starting position, percent, stage, character. Also keep in mind if you do get to a point in the combo where someone can get out, swinging is a missed opportunity. What I mean is that if you don't swing you can let them burn their DJ and attempt to set up for another punish.

You have to divide the game into sections: neutral(and it's sub-components), comboing, tech chasing, DI, recovery, edgeguarding, and so on. Then you figure out how to make each component work best for you while minimizing the effectiveness of those areas for your opponent. This means you should watch a game of yours or a good players and ONLY look at combos one time through to think about them, or whatever skill you're working on. Anyway, it takes time to adjust to better players, but you can speed this up with outside analysis and training that suits these fundamentals.

Vs the top platform on DL, just SH and dash sometimes. Occasionally DJ and Fair/Uair/Bair them so they stop staying up there and have to find a new strategy. You can sometimes start a pseudo combo off of this at mid/higher percents but the primary purpose is discouraging that play. Keep in mind those players cannot get to you either, so if you keep tacking on damage while staying safe from being hit, their strategy is still not worth continuing.

Dr Peepee Not specific to Marth, but I was wondering if you have any general tips for exerting more mental control while playing. I figure if anybody does, it's you.

Right now, I'm just figuring that whenever I play I need to just force myself to think about my decision making and how I can change my neutral to in order to win the next exchange, but the issue is that when I sit down, that all just... stops. I sit down thinking "I need to focus on how he's winning neutral right now" and in my play it more manifests itself in "throw out even more AC bairs (Falco) and be sure to trip him up with movement." It works sometimes, but becomes an issue when my default defense mechanism is to wavesurf away and it feels like I don't have any mixups past that.

It's even more frustrating because I can watch other peoples sets and think clearly about exactly how/why they lost most neutral situations, and I really feel like I oughtta be able to do this for myself while playing. Any tips would be SUPER appreciated.

You can't think clearly during a match. It's basically impossible. This is a common problem though, so don't feel bad about it. You can do more outside analysis/practice to improve your in-game play, but that isn't the full answer.

I believe you should play to learn more in friendlies. That coincides with losing more, which is important. Many people tighten their play in tournament because they're afraid of losing, and/or giving up control of their minds to what they know how to do. By losing more in friendlies/MMs you learn to not fear losing any more after doing it so much and eventually can play more relaxed in tournament. This is NOT easy and takes time but it is one of the most valuable skills I've learned.

 

[Life]

You can't think clearly during a match. It's basically impossible.

This makes me feel legitimately a trillion times better about my play. Thanks, PP.

 

[Brave Little DeCoste'R]

Has anyone tried to CC Fox aerials at really low percents at 0 and it not work, but then at like around 15-20 it starts working? I'm wondering if anyone has any information on that because I swear I will CC a fox nair at 0 to grab and it never works.

 

[tauKhan]

Fox nair is a sakurai angled move, which in short means it's launch angle is dependent on the knock back on grounded victims: at low kbs (<= 32) it's a 0° spike, while at higher kbs it's launch angle is 44° . On aerial victims sakurai angled move has always 45° launch angle.

When the nair spikes you, it will work like shine or other spikes: you won't get lifted into air and can't therefore ASDI down to impact land and cancel hitstun. That means fox often has the frame advantage even if you get crouch kb and hitlag reductions.

The strong hit of the nair (fresh) is never a spike on Marth if you don't crouch. It spikes up to 7% if you crouch. Weak hit is a spike up to 8% if you don't crouch, and up to 27% if you crouch.


As you can see from those percentages, just ASDI down at low % is more likely to work than crouch + ASDI down . You can do ASDI down without crouching for example by holding down with control stick while performing some move. Alternatively you can hold c-stick down instead of control stick. Crouching becomes necessary when you'd get knocked down otherwise: at 38% vs strong nair and 66% vs weak nair. You'll also be pushed away harder the more % you have.

 

[Brave Little DeCoste'R]

wow thanks this will give me a lot to think about. Does dashing and/or dtilting work to get the asdi down by holding down on the control stick? I makes sense to me that you can't simply just crouch to get the asdi but since marth is already crouching during dtilt im curious

 

[tauKhan]

During the dash period (where you can dd) you can hold down to ASDI, I'm under the impression that some top players do that sometimes. Note that holding down will make you move slower than holding forward though. Also you don't actually crouch during dtilt. When the dtilt ends, if you didn't IASA into something, you'll end up in crouch though.

 

[Brave Little DeCoste'R]

thanks I've always been curious about this and now i think i have a good understanding

 

[Brave Little DeCoste'R]

is there any more information on sakurai angles anywhere? I'm curious to know what other moves behave like this

 

[tauKhan]

Huge portion of the hitboxes are sakurai angled, almost every move that sends you at 45° is. You can find the launch angle and other properties of all moves at http://ikneedata.com/calculator.html , very useful tool for various purposes.


I realized that just as you don't need full ASDI down on jabs and down and in is often better (Thanks -ACE- for that), at low - mid % diagonal ASDI is often enough vs moves like fox nair. It's possible to input dash at near 45° angle and ASDI cc if you get hit. You can even dd while holding down enough to cc many moves. I tried it out a bit, and had high error rate with dashes though, but I'm definitely going to investigate it's possibilities further. Not a new tech though, now that I think of it I've probably heard some odd name for it too.

 

[-ACE-]

T tauKhan do you know percentages for Ganon against Fox nair regarding crouch vs ASDI down?

/off topic

 

[Kaoak]

1. You want grabs, Fairs/Uair if they're in the air, and sometimes Utilt for your biggest punishes. So you need to find ways to land those moves. To get there, you'll often need Dtilt pokes as well as the ability to control your own space with Fair/Nair/Dtilt. A dash should carry the threat of Dtilt/grab approach or controlling your own space, and it's best when it's ambiguous.

2 and 3. see 1

Thanks a ton for your response. My last question is how can I "carry the threat of dtilt" from my dash? I usually have to wavedash dtilt, which has a long startup (22 frames I believe), or running dtilt, which requires a fairly long runway which I find can just be too much space to give your opponent.

 

[Dr Peepee]

You only need to poke with it once to make the threat real. Think about it like this: if you catch your opponent waiting or retreating with the Dtilt then the startup doesn't matter so much. When the opponent is looking to react to it you only have to dash forward to get a response. If you train REALLY well you can dash forward and confirm as you dash forward whether they are reacting to the Dtilt threat or not and make a decision from there.

 

[Kaoak]

I can see why dtilt is useful as a pressuring tool against retreating or waiting opponents, it covers a lot of ground and has very low risk if spaced correctly, but I have a hard time understanding why you would be threatened by a dtilt out of a dash. I can see being threatened by a grab or a rising aerial for instance, because these are things that you are capable of doing at any point during your dash dance animation, but dtilt is much more clunky and cannot be used out of a dash. I understand how a Marth that is standing still, walking or wavedashing threatens with dtilt, but I don't understand how a dash dancing Marth also holds that threat.

As an aside, I hope this doesn't come off as being argumentative. I just hope to better my understanding and I don't want to pretend like I understand how something works if I don't. Thanks a lot again for your response <3

 

[Dr Peepee]

Well you've already answered it in your response. Dtilt alone is NOT good. Period. It is only when combining it with other moves like rising Fair, grab, and occasional mixups like Fsmash that it becomes good. If an opponent moves back to dodge your dash rising Fair but you go a little beyond that and Dtilt, that is much harder to deal with. Same goes for dash grab.

If this is a bit confusing, keep in mind threatening range. You will be spaced a run Dtilt/WD dash WD Dtilt distance from your opponent, which is enough to threaten but quite far. From this position, you can react if they come in with a different move, or push out with your own dash that carries multiple threats. You may not even attack at all. Because of this, it becomes very difficult to predict if Marth will go all the way or not, and confirming it is hard.

While I harp on Dtilt, you must understand Marth as a character to succeed. There are no shortcuts.

 

[Kaoak]

I think I understand a lot better now. Thanks a ton for the explanation.

Off topic though, I think it would be cool for you to make a video on your Youtube channel analyzing one of your own matches with an emphasis on conditioning and what you are thinking during specific moments of a match (say during a dash dance or when you approach). People talk a lot about how your dashes always have an intent, and perhaps that is something you could discuss in more length with examples for players at all sorts of different levels. I think a lot of people misunderstand the concept of conditioning or don't know how their previous actions will influence the actions of their opponent, and how your opponent's previous actions should influence your decision making. I think this could make for a really good video if/when you're up to making an analysis type video or a video at all. Just a suggestion for what is maybe something you would enjoy making and people of all different levels could appreciate.

PPMD Kreygasm

 

[AirFair]

Dr Peepee I'm currently studying a lot about dash dancing, because I feel like mine is very lacking in how I want to use each individual dash, so I thought I would ask the master(in my opinion). From what I know, a good dash dance has varying lengths, and each dash has a goal. I have a few ideas about how they are used BESIDES changing your spacing . This may be kind of broad, but I'm just starting to think about it, so I might need to study more.

I see short dashes as ways to establish your space when you don't have much of it, like when you are in the corner. When marth gets into proper spacing, a short dash forward can lead to a spaced nair or fair, but I'm not quite what kind of goal would come in mind from them besides being used as mixups for your long dash/wd in lunges. Maybe they can be used to confirm approaches as well??

Long dashes can be used to fake dtilt pokes, as mentioned above, and rc dtilt is a good offensive use when you are expecting a retreat. Similarly, wd in is most commonly followed by dtilt, so wd and out, or long dash in and wd out are sequences I like that can both prepare for reactions or setup zoning with late fair in spots like the corner.

What do you think of these ideas?

Another small movement thing I want to use and understand more is Cactus dashing. I'm not really sure how to use cactus dashing effectively, and all I know is that it can help bait approaches when facing the opponent. For a specific example, It would really help if you could explain how you used it here
https://youtu.be/IomXcdAAt7E?t=16m51s (up until the turnip is pulled)
Another thing, what makes you want to use it when your back is turned to the opponent? I've seen a grab done out of it, so is it just meant to be confusing?

Thanks, and much love.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee I'm currently studying a lot about dash dancing, because I feel like mine is very lacking in how I want to use each individual dash, so I thought I would ask the master(in my opinion). From what I know, a good dash dance has varying lengths, and each dash has a goal. I have a few ideas about how they are used BESIDES changing your spacing . This may be kind of broad, but I'm just starting to think about it, so I might need to study more.

I see short dashes as ways to establish your space when you don't have much of it, like when you are in the corner. When marth gets into proper spacing, a short dash forward can lead to a spaced nair or fair, but I'm not quite what kind of goal would come in mind from them besides being used as mixups for your long dash/wd in lunges. Maybe they can be used to confirm approaches as well??

Long dashes can be used to fake dtilt pokes, as mentioned above, and rc dtilt is a good offensive use when you are expecting a retreat. Similarly, wd in is most commonly followed by dtilt, so wd and out, or long dash in and wd out are sequences I like that can both prepare for reactions or setup zoning with late fair in spots like the corner.

What do you think of these ideas?

Another small movement thing I want to use and understand more is Cactus dashing. I'm not really sure how to use cactus dashing effectively, and all I know is that it can help bait approaches when facing the opponent. For a specific example, It would really help if you could explain how you used it here
https://youtu.be/IomXcdAAt7E?t=16m51s (up until the turnip is pulled)
Another thing, what makes you want to use it when your back is turned to the opponent? I've seen a grab done out of it, so is it just meant to be confusing?

Thanks, and much love.

An important principle here is tempo. You must have a tempo you like, or multiple tempos you like to establish a base rhythm. After that, you must learn when to break tempo. Doing so throws your opponent off-balance as they followed your previous rhythm. It is with this in mind you can begin putting long and short dashes together. Before that though, you have to understand the importance of each dash individually, which you're rightly focusing on.

Short dashes can be used when you can't afford to go forward much, want a faster tempo, or simply wish to adjust your space slightly or precisely. Your other short dash question pulls the other options with it, and it might be helpful to learn the effects of multiple short dashes before messing with combining the two types.

Long dashes are slower and change your space much more, and forward ones tend to provoke an opponent's reaction as you've said.

I prefer the backwards momentum cancel because the WD is toward the opponent and makes it feel more likely I could just not dash and move in instead. Both are good but I tend to prefer the backwards one for that reason. The main advantage of this tool is it combines visual/audio cues that you usually associate with movement and you stall in place, which is very jarring for the opponent.

 

[bts.mongoose]

Hi! I have a question about a concept you wrote about briefly in a reddit thread a while ago: paradigms. You described it as essentially archetypes of different types of players that you can use to quickly understand and adapt to the kinds of decisions your opponent is making. While I understand that you can't really just give away that kind of information, I have some broad questions about the idea and the steps I need to take to build up that kind of knowledge. I apologize if you've already answered these questions in the past; if you have, I've been unable to find them.

1. Are paradigms cross-character? For instance, can a person play Marth and Fox with similar enough goals and decision making to make them essentially the same playstyle?
2. About how many different archetypes do you think there are? If archetypes are character specific, how many do you think there are per character?
3. Would you be willing to share an example of a paradigm to set me on the right track?

Thank you!

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hi! I have a question about a concept you wrote about briefly in a reddit thread a while ago: paradigms. You described it as essentially archetypes of different types of players that you can use to quickly understand and adapt to the kinds of decisions your opponent is making. While I understand that you can't really just give away that kind of information, I have some broad questions about the idea and the steps I need to take to build up that kind of knowledge. I apologize if you've already answered these questions in the past; if you have, I've been unable to find them.

1. Are paradigms cross-character? For instance, can a person play Marth and Fox with similar enough goals and decision making to make them essentially the same playstyle?
2. About how many different archetypes do you think there are? If archetypes are character specific, how many do you think there are per character?
3. Would you be willing to share an example of a paradigm to set me on the right track?

Thank you!

These questions are very difficult! I have a lot of internalized knowledge on this but I'll do my best to answer.

1. Paradigms ARE cross-character to an extent. If I am playing Falco and then switch to Marth, I will still have tendencies that I as a person want to bring out. Those tendencies can be modified somewhat by the character though, so it is equally important to know character influence on a person's mind.

2. Oh....well this is an interesting question to answer. On one hand, there are only so many categories and types of perspectives. On the other hand, every person, especially those who are more developed will have their own unique signature as a combination or a fleshing out of these categories. I haven't really counted the archetypes before though. I guess I could list things like high/low energy, proactive/reactive, aggressive/defensive, ability to handle being outplayed, perfectionist/free-spirited, among others. It's important to note that in almost every archetype case there is a benefit to understanding the other side. It's like accepting parts of yourself you typically don't wish to acknowledge, to be more personal.

3. Taking an example I just listed, perfectionist/free-spirited, we can see these two types as being focused on different objectives. Perfectionists are strictly about "the rules of the game," taking great care to analyze and optimize whenever possible. Free-spirited players, on the other hand, wish to bring out their own self-expression. They often want to flow with the pace of the match and are more interested in neutral, while perfectionists prefer calculated punishments. As everyone is already aware of the advantages and disadvantages of focusing too much on just neutral or punishment, we can easily see why it's valuable to internalize both sides. I hope that helps.

If I had to add anything else, I would say look for common decision-making between characters or players who seem similar and make your own conclusions.

 

[bts.mongoose]

These questions are very difficult! I have a lot of internalized knowledge on this but I'll do my best to answer.

1. Paradigms ARE cross-character to an extent. If I am playing Falco and then switch to Marth, I will still have tendencies that I as a person want to bring out. Those tendencies can be modified somewhat by the character though, so it is equally important to know character influence on a person's mind.

2. Oh....well this is an interesting question to answer. On one hand, there are only so many categories and types of perspectives. On the other hand, every person, especially those who are more developed will have their own unique signature as a combination or a fleshing out of these categories. I haven't really counted the archetypes before though. I guess I could list things like high/low energy, proactive/reactive, aggressive/defensive, ability to handle being outplayed, perfectionist/free-spirited, among others. It's important to note that in almost every archetype case there is a benefit to understanding the other side. It's like accepting parts of yourself you typically don't wish to acknowledge, to be more personal.

3. Taking an example I just listed, perfectionist/free-spirited, we can see these two types as being focused on different objectives. Perfectionists are strictly about "the rules of the game," taking great care to analyze and optimize whenever possible. Free-spirited players, on the other hand, wish to bring out their own self-expression. They often want to flow with the pace of the match and are more interested in neutral, while perfectionists prefer calculated punishments. As everyone is already aware of the advantages and disadvantages of focusing too much on just neutral or punishment, we can easily see why it's valuable to internalize both sides. I hope that helps.

If I had to add anything else, I would say look for common decision-making between characters or players who seem similar and make your own conclusions.

Thank you so much! That was very helpful.

 

[Wall Of SPain]

Dr Peepee , i know this is not a marth related question is more about mentality, but i reaaally need this talk or answer. After some really hard work and studying i was starting to be recognized by my state people and today, actually yesterday its 12 pm :$, i had a big tournament where i was seeded 12th. I was/am really happy about this as it showed my hours and hours of analysis and studying, however when i go to play my first game against a pretty bad rival i freeze, i stop having that laser heavy patient style i have, i feel nervous like i have never felt before, i can usually deal with it but this time was different i went 1-2 in bracket against horrible people and leave the tourney. Now i feel trapped in a box, whats is happening? Is it because i played to much? Has my studying been useless? What am i really working for if all i end up with is my own defeat? I really don't know what to do here... i could say it's just another tourney but that is not going to stop me from playing the game i don't enjoy playing like again... I have gone through a lot of defeats in my competitive careers, but never something so destructive and discouraging. I feel so... Lonely. Again sorry for this not being a marth question.

 

[CP Adagio]

So I'm a new Marth and I've been practicing chain grabbing spacies. What are the percentages at which Fox/Falco can hard DI and force Marth to dash forward in order to regrab instead of just Standing/Turnaround Grab?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee , i know this is not a marth related question is more about mentality, but i reaaally need this talk or answer. After some really hard work and studying i was starting to be recognized by my state people and today, actually yesterday its 12 pm :$, i had a big tournament where i was seeded 12th. I was/am really happy about this as it showed my hours and hours of analysis and studying, however when i go to play my first game against a pretty bad rival i freeze, i stop having that laser heavy patient style i have, i feel nervous like i have never felt before, i can usually deal with it but this time was different i went 1-2 in bracket against horrible people and leave the tourney. Now i feel trapped in a box, whats is happening? Is it because i played to much? Has my studying been useless? What am i really working for if all i end up with is my own defeat? I really don't know what to do here... i could say it's just another tourney but that is not going to stop me from playing the game i don't enjoy playing like again... I have gone through a lot of defeats in my competitive careers, but never something so destructive and discouraging. I feel so... Lonely. Again sorry for this not being a marth question.

This happens to literally everyone, first of all. You're not alone man. It's a terrible feeling!

Why does it happen? It happens because we get satisfied, and don't adjust our expectations upward. So then we stop working since we reached any immediate goal we had before.

I'm not telling you not to be happy you're getting recognized, that's definitely good! But I am saying that we enjoy putting in work because it helps us grow as people and growth is fulfilling, so make some new goals and really commit to them. I think there's a pretty good chance you'll see things turn around.

 

[Wall Of SPain]

Dr Peepee okay, i will not suffy with anything until im the best then? of course i will have a short term goal but never satisfied until that. thanks

 

[{Lemons}]

So I'm a new Marth and I've been practicing chain grabbing spacies. What are the percentages at which Fox/Falco can hard DI and force Marth to dash forward in order to regrab instead of just Standing/Turnaround Grab?

Check out Kira's guide on SSBM Tutorials https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSEcRDiOSqk

It should should answer a lot of your general questions.

 

[Sylarius]

Sundark posted in this thread earlier for me but I thought I'd add in a bit more, tried asking in the Marth discord and didn't get any real answers except from him.

I recently placed 13th at Summit in Canada (Toronto tournament - 186 melee entrants) so I'm reasonably decent but I still feel like my knowledge on what I'm doing is nearly nonexistent or oversimplified. My question is what else is going on in the neutral besides what I posted below? I couldn't find much information about this topic (I'm sure Umbreon and PPMD have posted about it before somewhat, but I only remember a handful of replies and something about less is more, but I'm moreso looking for what each movement means or what's going on in the neutral besides what I said below. I'll PM Umbreon and ask him too)

"so can someone correct me or add in information to this, cause I feel like I'm missing something or not fully understanding marths neutral
ppmd has said he understands what each movement he makes in the neutral means
however I feel like as marth all I'm really doing is 1) when I move back I'm trying to bait them to take space or whiff an attack, or giving space 2) when I move forward I'm trying to take space or make them whiff past me 3) when I swing or grab it's based on some sort of read from their dash or neutral movement, and I'm expecting or hoping to hit them
however my two problems with this are that a) relying on reads in the neutral SUCKS as a strategy, how do I move away from this into solid or tight neutral b) this feels too simplified and I don't fully comprehend exactly what is going on in neutral interactions
for me it's pretty much: jump read, I fair or wavedash back, dash read: grab and sometimes dtilt
...but I don't understand whats going on and don't really know how to learn it either lol
I placed 13th at summit last weekend in melee out of 186 entrants so it's not like I'm even bad
well I'm still not good, but I just don't really know what I'm doing kind of
I pretty much summarized it above
but what else is there that I'm missing? cause I'm sure theres quite a bit more behind it
i also have problems recognizing what is different between ppmds neutral and pewpewu's neutral (and mew2king's to a lesser degree) despite being able to notice "they play the neutral noticeably differently""

Maybe it's not really that I don't know what I'm doing but it feels like I'm missing stuff. Armada has said how precise every movement PPMD makes is and PP has said he knows what each little movement in the neutral means so I feel like I'm missing out on a lot.

 

[Deleted member]

ok so basically im on my phone traveling for the week so my typing is going to suck and idgaf.

playing against a given character in X vs Y as a MU is often some combination of "as X i should do <things>" and "i should do Y things against this character", ie you play partially for your character and against theirs. basic example lets say fox vs sheik, as fox you want to do shine > upsmash, and against sheik you want to abuse her poor approaches. to some degree the things youre doing will fit both but im trying to isolate the idea so go with it. marths tools are somewhat like CFs where theyre either incredibly good or totally dog**** but CF is more obvious about it. marth is ****ing amazing when his dashdancing is good or he can attack your attacks. against marth, it is generally better to pick the latter idea where you play against marth more than you play as your character. this is important, and once you have an idea of how to play against marth it will transfer between characters more than say the fox MU would.

the first rule of marth mirrors is to not jump. marth is incredibly good at killing and very poor defensively, his combo weight, recovery, oos options, etc are simply not that good. you should never put yourself in a position where the other marth can kill you for no reason and randomly jumping is a big one that people suck at. with two good marths this turns the game (correctly) into a strong dashdance mirror. in a dashdance mirror with fox CF marth, these characters take stage quickly and can randomly kill you for it, so its okay to dashdance "looser" and be a little bit more willing to forfeit small amounts of stage to avoid a proper conversion from the opponent. marth is well equipped to take stage back so the loss isnt so big a deal. as much as you definitely want to take stage, its okay and even preferable to not play tight as ****. third, in the DD mirror, because both players are moving you will frequently find that its hard for either player to land a proper hit. because of this, you will always want to have buffer for asdi down in and out of your movement so when you get clipped you can randomly grab them for it with a fake cc grab and kill them. this is particularly strong in the marth mirror because marth can get brutally punished even if he hits his attacks specifically because he landed the wrong part of the attack on the blade. sometimes in the marth mirror if i find that the other marth can dashdance as well as me i'll just let them hit me and kill them for it. not the best idea but you should be aware of it since the DD mirror basically nullifies true CC as an option (and if they try to true CC you, dashdancing and good dtilt use still beats it).

a really good marth mirror then becomes a really strange game where neither player ever blocks or dodges or jumps or true crouches, because all of them are bad vs good DD use. its just two players that never jump trying to grab or dtilt the dash away part of the DD and not landing good hits until one of them finally gets a good conversion and randomly murders the other on the spot.

will add more later but lets get a discussion going

@PPMD

 

[AriSmash]

What do you think about the Falco/Marth matchup from the perspective of Falco? How can I avoid being gimped and how can I improve my Neutral game while Marth is dash dancing?

 

[Sylarius]

this is important, and once you have an idea of how to play against marth it will transfer between characters more than say the fox MU would.

the first rule of marth mirrors is to not jump. marth is incredibly good at killing and very poor defensively, his combo weight, recovery, oos options, etc are simply not that good. you should never put yourself in a position where the other marth can kill you for no reason and randomly jumping is a big one that people suck at. with two good marths this turns the game (correctly) into a strong dashdance mirror. in a dashdance mirror with fox CF marth, these characters take stage quickly and can randomly kill you for it, so its okay to dashdance "looser" and be a little bit more willing to forfeit small amounts of stage to avoid a proper conversion from the opponent. marth is well equipped to take stage back so the loss isnt so big a deal. as much as you definitely want to take stage, its okay and even preferable to not play tight as ****. third, in the DD mirror, because both players are moving you will frequently find that its hard for either player to land a proper hit. because of this, you will always want to have buffer for asdi down in and out of your movement so when you get clipped you can randomly grab them for it with a fake cc grab and kill them. this is particularly strong in the marth mirror because marth can get brutally punished even if he hits his attacks specifically because he landed the wrong part of the attack on the blade. sometimes in the marth mirror if i find that the other marth can dashdance as well as me i'll just let them hit me and kill them for it. not the best idea but you should be aware of it since the DD mirror basically nullifies true CC as an option (and if they try to true CC you, dashdancing and good dtilt use still beats it).

a really good marth mirror then becomes a really strange game where neither player ever blocks or dodges or jumps or true crouches, because all of them are bad vs good DD use. its just two players that never jump trying to grab or dtilt the dash away part of the DD and not landing good hits until one of them finally gets a good conversion and randomly murders the other on the spot.

will add more later but lets get a discussion going

@PPMD

Thanks for this. I'll watch some of PPMD's dittos with this in mind and see what I can come up with. I'm heading to Alberta Beat Down the weekend following this one and there's a good chance I'll play Quaff there (super good Alberta Marth, has beaten n0ne in an MM and regularly beats Mittens) and I'd like to be able to put up a good fight against him if I can. I pretty much am just guessing every matchup and how I play based on what I've seen and like I said earlier despite being the best here and placing reasonably well at Summit I want to completely admit it feels like there's gotta be some way of knowing "this is what ____ option means for both of us" or "this is what I'm trying to do in this matchup" because right now, if I play against fox for example it's pretty much just "try and grab him, OR grab him after he tries to nair, OR dtilt him if the situation feels like a dtilt (which is my subjective guess of when to dtilt and when to grab), OR randomly nair or fair if I think I can grab afterwards or they're jumping from a platform. It's not totally this simple of course but yeah, I definitely think I'm missing a lot of things and am kind of just feeling my way through it.

Earlier I posted about how I thought I relied on reads in the neutral but when I think about it it's not entirely true. However it feels like it. Can you describe how you feel perfect play against the other character is played @Umbreon ? You mentioned how you try to limit everything the other player can do within the confines of their character, and how that's optimal. I still feel pretty read-based on their patterns and if you could give me an idea of where to start for this (besides taking stage and forcing them into a corner, which I already try to do anyway), that'd be a great eye opener for me. Hopefully, anyway.

This is kind of weird for me to discuss because it feels this way but nobody in my scene would say I am actually this clueless, I'll quote this for context:

Oh what the heck. So PP I sent you a tweet the other day that I figured might go unanswered, but I sent it because the person I was asking on behalf of said you hadn't responded to this thread in a long time. Since evidently this isn't correct, I'll add it here:

View attachment 113207

Anybody else of course can feel free to throw suggestions as well. Also I will vouch for him destroying us lol. It's kind of weird, you watch him play the game and he's super untouchable, will combo anything into anything, covers every option etc., but ask him stuff like frame data and he won't know random-but-important things (like grab) and says he plays based on reads.

I asked what he was looking for specifically and it was basically this, and that he's just looking to be able to improve more, be able to adapt faster, since he knows he'll need more when he starts going out of region.

I think my play is exaggerated a bit in it, but the rest is true.

I hardly know what ASDI is. I'll have to search it. All I really know is crouching before you get hit usually keeps you in crouch, whereas holding down but not crouching can cause either that or hitting the ground (and I'll do that to avoid getting stomp-> kneed or combo'd on platforms for example). Maybe that's pretty much it though? Will check in any case.

I think I'll have a good idea (or at least, a better one) of why each player is doing what they do in marth dittos now. Will watch PPMD vs Pewpewu from Bot5g & Apex and PPU vs The Moon and see if I start to notice things I didn't before. Thanks Max.

What do you think about the Falco/Marth matchup from the perspective of Falco? How can I avoid being gimped and how can I improve my Neutral game while Marth is dash dancing?

Someone can give you a better answer than me eventually. But to avoid getting gimped:
-don't get grabbed at the edge of the stage. Don't miss your tech skill/pressure or do anything unsafe.
-at 0%, di fthrow down and away and buffer a roll or spotdodge
-if you're fthrown or dthrown towards the ledge, always tech to not get dtilted or fsmashed after. Teching in is the correct option the vast majority of the time if teching in place or away will leave you at the edge of the stage.
-Just roll in unless the marth is punishing you for it.

I used to beat falcos who I considered better than me just by gimping them over and over because they were too reckless at the ledge. Don't be one of those falcos.

Can't help you for the neutral game request. Sorry broski. Try shooting your lasers at various heights if you're getting powershielded too often.

 

[AirFair]

ok so basically im on my phone traveling for the week so my typing is going to suck and idgaf.

playing against a given character in X vs Y as a MU is often some combination of "as X i should do <things>" and "i should do Y things against this character", ie you play partially for your character and against theirs. basic example lets say fox vs sheik, as fox you want to do shine > upsmash, and against sheik you want to abuse her poor approaches. to some degree the things youre doing will fit both but im trying to isolate the idea so go with it. marths tools are somewhat like CFs where theyre either incredibly good or totally dog**** but CF is more obvious about it. marth is ****ing amazing when his dashdancing is good or he can attack your attacks. against marth, it is generally better to pick the latter idea where you play against marth more than you play as your character. this is important, and once you have an idea of how to play against marth it will transfer between characters more than say the fox MU would.

the first rule of marth mirrors is to not jump. marth is incredibly good at killing and very poor defensively, his combo weight, recovery, oos options, etc are simply not that good. you should never put yourself in a position where the other marth can kill you for no reason and randomly jumping is a big one that people suck at. with two good marths this turns the game (correctly) into a strong dashdance mirror. in a dashdance mirror with fox CF marth, these characters take stage quickly and can randomly kill you for it, so its okay to dashdance "looser" and be a little bit more willing to forfeit small amounts of stage to avoid a proper conversion from the opponent. marth is well equipped to take stage back so the loss isnt so big a deal. as much as you definitely want to take stage, its okay and even preferable to not play tight as ****. third, in the DD mirror, because both players are moving you will frequently find that its hard for either player to land a proper hit. because of this, you will always want to have buffer for asdi down in and out of your movement so when you get clipped you can randomly grab them for it with a fake cc grab and kill them. this is particularly strong in the marth mirror because marth can get brutally punished even if he hits his attacks specifically because he landed the wrong part of the attack on the blade. sometimes in the marth mirror if i find that the other marth can dashdance as well as me i'll just let them hit me and kill them for it. not the best idea but you should be aware of it since the DD mirror basically nullifies true CC as an option (and if they try to true CC you, dashdancing and good dtilt use still beats it).

a really good marth mirror then becomes a really strange game where neither player ever blocks or dodges or jumps or true crouches, because all of them are bad vs good DD use. its just two players that never jump trying to grab or dtilt the dash away part of the DD and not landing good hits until one of them finally gets a good conversion and randomly murders the other on the spot.

will add more later but lets get a discussion going

@PPMD

I know what asdi down is, but I never hear about it's use in the marth ditto, so I don't really use it. When I go for hits, like a late fair, I would try and make sure to space outside of grab range. I do however, cc dtilt, and usually I try and dtilt them back. I'm pretty sure that you can cc grab the weak hit of dtilt, but you can't grab a tippered hit, which is why I just dtilt back.

 

[Deleted member]

yeah asdi is actually way more important than true cc in the dd mirror because you can buffer it in and out of movement and still use the pseudo crouch to negate conversions or get a few extra ones