Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Beat!]

Never be afraid of "overthinking"! Learning how to do efficient and practically useful analysis requires a LOT of experience and trial-and-error. There's nothing wrong with asking better players what they're focusing on during practice but you also have to trust your own ability to learn. ANY time a new idea or thought pops up in your head - no matter how convoluted it may seem - you should try to put it into practice! If it ends up being useless/not practical then just happily admit it and try a new thing next time. Even if it takes a thousand attempts before you find a "line" of thinking which actually helps you improve your performance, that's still progress! Especially since the other 999 attempts will have taught you a **** ton of ideas which aren't useful. Every new attempt at analysis, successful or not, makes your future decisions just a tiny bit more informed, and striving towards universally informed decision making is one of the keys to becoming really, really good.

Try, fail, admit it, then try again, this time a tiny bit more knowledgeable about the game than you were the previous attempt. Rinse and repeat. Cultivate your own personal understanding of the game. Don't "avoid" overthinking. Embrace it and learn from it. I've lost count of the amount of times I've had some kind of personal epiphany or realization about the game, only to put it into practice and then eventually have to accept that it was oversimplified, misguided or just dumb, but simply by trying it out I still learned something about the analytical process as a whole, and nowadays I'm actually very good at dissecting my own gameplay in an accuracte and concise way.

Rome wasn't built in a day.



That's all a bit abstract so here's something slightly more concrete to actually answer your question (even though I'm not pp pls forgive): one thing you can and should focus a lot on is when and why you commit to stuff in neutral and/or advantageous positions, especially when you end up being punished for it. A lot of players are very quick to throw away advantages and leads for no good reason and it makes a huge impact on the outcome of their games. I can't emphasize enough how valuable a safe, reliable offense is. Always ask yourself if you really had to commit when you did. If the answer is no (it usually is) then ask yourself if there was something else about the situation which made it justifiable. Still no (again, usually the case)? Chill a bit more next time and see if you can find an actual opening. Make it a rule of thumb to never settle for risks and 50/50 mixups when you don't have to. You'll lose out on the occasional early/easy kill for a while but there's nothing that says you can't re-implement reads at a later time, when your offense has a solid foundation and you know what you're doing.

 

[Kopaka]

Beat! just comes out of nowhere with the hottest post of page 418 ! That was the best Not-PP post I've read so far in this topic dude All of what you wrote is soooooooooo true. "A lot of players are very quick to throw away advantages and leads for no good reason and it makes a huge impact on the outcome of their games." This is extremely true too and I'm glad you wrote that part.

Countless times I've heard players say things like "...oh I just think of way too many things when I play and I think that's bad, Melee is so hard I just don't know, I try to do pro player stuff and it just doesn't work" But I've never once seen them physically (or mentally) attempt at least to write down any of the ideas they may have on WHY things aren't working for them. They do get afraid of overthinking! I hear it every single time, and then they start saying they're "plateauing". When the answers to their improvement are literally right there in front of them on the TV Screen. All that's needed is observation. Countless observations, rinse and repeat. Rome wasn't built in a day

 

[Beat!]

Thanks! I think one of the bigger pitfalls players fall into is the idea of analytical ability as something you can either "have" or "not have", when it's really just a learned skill for the most part. Nobody "sees" all the fundamentals and strategic aspects of the game from the start. Always trust your own ability to learn.

 

[Kopaka]

Thanks! I think one of the bigger pitfalls players fall into is the idea of analytical ability as something you can either "have" or "not have", when it's really just a learned skill for the most part. Nobody "sees" all the fundamentals and strategic aspects of the game from the start. Always trust your own ability to learn.

Ex

Act

Ly.

No one should be afraid to sit down and analyze a set of Melee. I guarantee that within the first 10 seconds of a match, a lot of questions about whats going on will come out. I've personally found that putting the game itself above my ego is a very humbling experience that is necessary to realize how little I know, and how large the amount of questions I must ask (which I sometimes like to refer to as 'Un-Learning'). Which is ok. It's OK to have an immeasurable amount of questions about things. The #1 thing that top level players and low level players have in common is that both players are human, and have an ability to learn inside them. Even if you may live a busy lifestyle with work or school, it's amazing how much you can learn from even just 10 minutes of studying a set of Melee. This is why getting your own tournament sets recorded is honestly SUPER OP.

A lot of talk I hear about is how people say they're always flubbing execution. But imo, for a very large majority of most players (Some percentage, lets say everyone not in the top 100 for now), having the execution really doesn't matter too much for those players because a lot of the times they won't be seeing the true openings upon openings handed to them (Sight of which is made possible by very practiced analysis). Put 2 and 2 together, and then you're really really good.

 

[fatalsolid01]

Never be afraid of "overthinking"! Learning how to do efficient and practically useful analysis requires a LOT of experience and trial-and-error. There's nothing wrong with asking better players what they're focusing on during practice but you also have to trust your own ability to learn. ANY time a new idea or thought pops up in your head - no matter how convoluted it may seem - you should try to put it into practice! If it ends up being useless/not practical then just happily admit it and try a new thing next time. Even if it takes a thousand attempts before you find a "line" of thinking which actually helps you improve your performance, that's still progress! Especially since the other 999 attempts will have taught you a **** ton of ideas which aren't useful. Every new attempt at analysis, successful or not, makes your future decisions just a tiny bit more informed, and striving towards universally informed decision making is one of the keys to becoming really, really good.

Try, fail, admit it, then try again, this time a tiny bit more knowledgeable about the game than you were the previous attempt. Rinse and repeat. Cultivate your own personal understanding of the game. Don't "avoid" overthinking. Embrace it and learn from it. I've lost count of the amount of times I've had some kind of personal epiphany or realization about the game, only to put it into practice and then eventually have to accept that it was oversimplified, misguided or just dumb, but simply by trying it out I still learned something about the analytical process as a whole, and nowadays I'm actually very good at dissecting my own gameplay in an accuracte and concise way.

Rome wasn't built in a day.



That's all a bit abstract so here's something slightly more concrete to actually answer your question (even though I'm not pp pls forgive): one thing you can and should focus a lot on is when and why you commit to stuff in neutral and/or advantageous positions, especially when you end up being punished for it. A lot of players are very quick to throw away advantages and leads for no good reason and it makes a huge impact on the outcome of their games. I can't emphasize enough how valuable a safe, reliable offense is. Always ask yourself if you really had to commit when you did. If the answer is no (it usually is) then ask yourself if there was something else about the situation which made it justifiable. Still no (again, usually the case)? Chill a bit more next time and see if you can find an actual opening. Make it a rule of thumb to never settle for risks and 50/50 mixups when you don't have to. You'll lose out on the occasional early/easy kill for a while but there's nothing that says you can't re-implement reads at a later time, when your offense has a solid foundation and you know what you're doing.

Woow beat, Thanks for that amazing write up my dude, really great advice! Alot of its definitely going to be in my phone notes lol. I especially identified with going for 50-50s way too much instead of constantly trying to stay in the advantageous position and only swinging when im absolutely sure ive got the read or punish on the player. I just personally am the type of person to doubt or second guess myself often IRL, only makes sense it would carry over to smash. But im starting to feel a lot better about my mental game now. You have my thanks!

 

[Beat!]

No problem! I doubt and second-guess myself about stuff too but the nice thing about practice/experimentation - especially the solo variety - is that nobody's there to judge you. It's just you and the ideas you come up with in your head. The only expectation you need to place on yourself (aside from the more general desire to improve) is to actually try the ideas out and pay attention to the results. Improvement is its own reward!

 

[gcboy]

Hi, I'm sorry for the very scrubby question and yes I've used the search function but I haven't come across quite the information I'm looking for and I've grown quite frustrated so whomever is patient enough please bear with me. I'm an old IC player and Marth CGs are obviously much different from what I'm used to.

Is there anyone that can describe the tactile feel of a marth CG rhythm to me? Obviously there is no bpm to it but I can't for the life of me find a way to input the grab for 0-16% on fox with slight behind DI. Granted it's Gamecube Training mode on Attack DI and I can do far and neutral DI for these percents no problem but I drop on even second or third grab with slight DI. What am I doing wrong? I've tried turnaround, pivot, JC grabs. I'm stumped.

Also for the second part, between 16 to uptilt percentare there any pointers any experiencedplayers can give for reading DI? Barring superhuman reaction times and instant inputs are there any other tricks? For example sometimes I just start inputting the pivot in the direction they DI the last throw and then regrab from the initial foxtrot if they DI the same or complete the pivot for neutral or opposite DI. Is this a relable trickor just a bad idea?

 

[PedXing]

Reading DI isn't superhuman my friend. I'm far from experienced and I find it easy enough to react, you just need to practice it for a long time and then you'll get a feel and everything "slows" down!

For 0 - 16% presumably you can do behind DI just fine right? Slight behind is the same, you just turnaround grab same as behind DI. It took me a while too but you just have to keep at it. Find the setting that makes them slight DI behind the most and practice it over and over. Or, fight a low level CPU... I think m2k said level 3 was the best to practice with, but I could be wrong. You can test the levels yourself easily enough.

For me personally, every grab is a JC grab, so from 0 - 16 I turnaround JC grab for slight behind, but I believe it's faster to just grab. As you get higher, it gets hella harder and you need to practice pivot grab on neutral and slight behind DI as utilt percentage is from around 33/34%.

http://smashboards.com/threads/compilation-of-matchup-guides.341532/

If you need anymore help: Beat has this great guide at the bottom of the OP on the link above which will tell you everything you need to know. The only thing you can do to get better is practice it. Don't despair though, it is hard.

 

[AirFair]

Dr Peepee There is a specific situation in the Marth/Fox MU that I am having some trouble with.

In neutral, when I am dashdancing and Fox decides to run at me, I'm not quite sure what I can do safely.
the best example I could find came from a set I played awhile ago
https://youtu.be/NggEz0GLxl4?t=4m15s

The issue I face is that there seems to be a safe option Fox has for whatever I try
If I try to pivot grab like above, he can aerial and get a free hit
If I try and back up (which doesn't really apply in the corner) then I get rc shined.

From what I understand, dtilt is a strong move to beat them on the ground, and that would be a great move to use here. But if I am dashing back, the only way to do it would be through a pivot. I feel like this would also result in a hit however, but I have yet to test it.

I'm hesitant about using shield, since I would only really want to resort to it in the corner.

I'm used to trying to use pivot grab in such a direct apporach, but the only other idea I have is something that you mentioned in a previous answer, which would be to dash right through them, since they wouldn't normally expect that.

Is there a good option I can pick here, or does it come down to educated guesses? I'm sure there is something that I can do.

 

[Life]

It matters a lot whether you're facing forward or back, yeah. One thing you can pay attention to is actually when Fox wants to run at you and go in, and make sure you are dashing in the direction you want at that time. Don't wanna speak for PP, but I think that's one of the things where you have to have a purpose for every dash forward and dash back, where in this case the purpose of dashing forward is "I can wavedash back and be comfortable if Fox runs at me."

You could also WD forward into dtilt to try to catch Fox before his actual approach. Or just generally space differently so that Fox whiffs that running shine or whatever.

Ultimately there's no perfect right answer here, or Melee would be a terrible game. Just some ideas to work with.

 

[Sycorax]

Dr Peepee There is a specific situation in the Marth/Fox MU that I am having some trouble with.

In neutral, when I am dashdancing and Fox decides to run at me, I'm not quite sure what I can do safely.
the best example I could find came from a set I played awhile ago
https://youtu.be/NggEz0GLxl4?t=4m15s

The issue I face is that there seems to be a safe option Fox has for whatever I try
If I try to pivot grab like above, he can aerial and get a free hit
If I try and back up (which doesn't really apply in the corner) then I get rc shined.

From what I understand, dtilt is a strong move to beat them on the ground, and that would be a great move to use here. But if I am dashing back, the only way to do it would be through a pivot. I feel like this would also result in a hit however, but I have yet to test it.

I'm hesitant about using shield, since I would only really want to resort to it in the corner.

I'm used to trying to use pivot grab in such a direct apporach, but the only other idea I have is something that you mentioned in a previous answer, which would be to dash right through them, since they wouldn't normally expect that.

Is there a good option I can pick here, or does it come down to educated guesses? I'm sure there is something that I can do.

You can try doing SH FF AC nair with different drift patterms, in place, backward, forward. You can SH fair in place. You can call him out and run forward grab. You can dash through him. You can WD forward dtilt. Maybe Dr. PP will have more insight, but to the best of my understanding, it's just a straight mixup of when and how you think he'll get aggressive.

 

[tauKhan]

For me personally, every grab is a JC grab, so from 0 - 16 I turnaround JC grab for slight behind, but I believe it's faster to just grab.

You shouldn't jc grab if you want to to just turn grab, because jumping reverts tilt turn, and you can easily end up grabbing the wrong direction. To jc turn grab in place you need to get a smash turn, which makes it way harder, and it's also of course slower, because you waste 1+ frames in jumpsquat. In contrast to turn grab you can just hold stick backwards and grab.

I used to also jc grab everytime until I leaned about tilt turns. Believe me, it doesn't take long to get used to turn grab without jc, and it's way easier and more consistent.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Hey guys, I don't know if this has been discussed already, but I did some labbing on the Marth Peach matchup and I wanted to take a closer look at Peach trying to recover against Marth. I see Armada very often will be floating down towards the edge and just barely slip past any dtilt that Marth tries to do to cover her going low to the ledge like that. It turns out her ledge grab box extends to just above her umbrella. So even if you make Marth stand at the very edge of the stand to where he is about to fall off and dtilt or fsmash there, Peach can just barely get by that with a well calculated float.

It's a very tight window to do it though. Peach needs a bit of momentum when going under the move to get her to the edge. However, if Marth looks for when Peach's head is just above stage level while she is floating down on her parasol, the ONLY option she has at that point is to go for the ledge. Marth can take advantage of this by wavedashing and fast falling to grab the ledge before Peach does. You might think that you'll get hit by the parasol hitbox, but it's actually rather small, and Peach basically has to be touching the stage almost for that hitbox to actually hit you. In other words, you tried to grab the ledge just a little too late, or you didn't fast fall.

TL;DR: In Marth vs Peach, if you're Marth and you see Peach trying to float with her parasol to sweetspot the ledge, you can either go to the very edge of the stage and dtilt/fsmash to make it very hard for her to get around it, or you can see a visual cue to where you just grab the ledge and Peach can't do anything about it.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee There is a specific situation in the Marth/Fox MU that I am having some trouble with.

In neutral, when I am dashdancing and Fox decides to run at me, I'm not quite sure what I can do safely.
the best example I could find came from a set I played awhile ago
https://youtu.be/NggEz0GLxl4?t=4m15s

The issue I face is that there seems to be a safe option Fox has for whatever I try
If I try to pivot grab like above, he can aerial and get a free hit
If I try and back up (which doesn't really apply in the corner) then I get rc shined.

From what I understand, dtilt is a strong move to beat them on the ground, and that would be a great move to use here. But if I am dashing back, the only way to do it would be through a pivot. I feel like this would also result in a hit however, but I have yet to test it.

I'm hesitant about using shield, since I would only really want to resort to it in the corner.

I'm used to trying to use pivot grab in such a direct apporach, but the only other idea I have is something that you mentioned in a previous answer, which would be to dash right through them, since they wouldn't normally expect that.

Is there a good option I can pick here, or does it come down to educated guesses? I'm sure there is something that I can do.

Wow interesting. Cactus talked to me about this just the other day!

I view it differently than him, but we both agree that AC Nair is pretty good if you've confirmed the Fox will commit fairly hard(meaning they won't RC Dtilt). We also agreed that AC Fair(in place or retreating) is something that can cover the aforementioned options or more when possible. At lower percents Fair won't work as well even if it's spaced if they hold down though.

For the above reasons, I have something you can see me do vs Fox pretty often. I just run into them and grab. That way I get them before they commit to any move. This obviously loses to backing up early, but it still makes Marth's dash forward really threatening which I only consider a plus. If you can confirm when they want to go in and grab them early, then they have to attack from farther away/make more complicated approaches/switch to defense. This opens up opportunities for you to push forward.

There are other things to consider of course like Fsmash/using platforms to escape/running under Fox Nair/Dtilt in place as you mentioned. I primarily use what I said above though and mix the others in as needed.

 

[.alizarin]

that kind of situation reminds me of something that i''ve been curious about, and while i guess this question is directed at pp, i'd like other opinions too: how come i don't often hear people talk about empty pivoting with marth that much/at all? i hear the term mentioned occasionally, but nothing extensive. i feel like it could have a lot of use in a bunch of places.

just as an example, in the situation that airfair linked, empty pivots could give you access to more straightforward options immediately out of a dash dance that don't force you off the ground that could beat that kind of approach from fox. utilt and dtilt immediately come to mind, with the former being a bit committal but potentially leading to a full conversion or a reversal in position if they're holding forward/toward you and latter just having less startup than, say, dash forward -> wd back/in place -> dtilt. i also imagine empty pivots could serve as a replacement for shieldstops if you're using them strictly to turn around with no momentum

(also i realize that airfair briefly mentioned the pivot dtilt as an option, i was just wondering this as a general thing cause it seems to have a lot of utility in my head but with minimal attention)

 

[Sycorax]

that kind of situation reminds me of something that i''ve been curious about, and while i guess this question is directed at pp, i'd like other opinions too: how come i don't often hear people talk about empty pivoting with marth that much/at all? i hear the term mentioned occasionally, but nothing extensive. i feel like it could have a lot of use in a bunch of places.

just as an example, in the situation that airfair linked, empty pivots could give you access to more straightforward options immediately out of a dash dance that don't force you off the ground that could beat that kind of approach from fox. utilt and dtilt immediately come to mind, with the former being a bit committal but potentially leading to a full conversion or a reversal in position if they're holding forward/toward you and latter just having less startup than, say, dash forward -> wd back/in place -> dtilt. i also imagine empty pivots could serve as a replacement for shieldstops if you're using them strictly to turn around with no momentum

(also i realize that airfair briefly mentioned the pivot dtilt as an option, i was just wondering this as a general thing cause it seems to have a lot of utility in my head but with minimal attention)

Pivot dtilt, while theoretically very powerful, is very hard to perform in a useful way within the boundaries of human ability. In practice, it ends up not being any faster than WD back dtilt.

Edit: but I think empty pivots are a cool way to change up your rhythm and throw off your opponent.

 

[AirFair]

that kind of situation reminds me of something that i''ve been curious about, and while i guess this question is directed at pp, i'd like other opinions too: how come i don't often hear people talk about empty pivoting with marth that much/at all? i hear the term mentioned occasionally, but nothing extensive. i feel like it could have a lot of use in a bunch of places.

just as an example, in the situation that airfair linked, empty pivots could give you access to more straightforward options immediately out of a dash dance that don't force you off the ground that could beat that kind of approach from fox. utilt and dtilt immediately come to mind, with the former being a bit committal but potentially leading to a full conversion or a reversal in position if they're holding forward/toward you and latter just having less startup than, say, dash forward -> wd back/in place -> dtilt. i also imagine empty pivots could serve as a replacement for shieldstops if you're using them strictly to turn around with no momentum

(also i realize that airfair briefly mentioned the pivot dtilt as an option, i was just wondering this as a general thing cause it seems to have a lot of utility in my head but with minimal attention)

I think that framewise, pivoting would put me at a disadvantage when he is that close to me and my back is to him.

 

[.alizarin]

my understanding of the problem presented was that he invaded your space while your back was turned and there wasn't a quick way to defend yourself from both an aerial approach shown in the clip and a running shine in a situation where you weren't in the corner. pp's initial post mentions that ac nair and fair do well under the assumption that fox will commit, and an early grab on their ground approach before their commitment sort of "solves" the problem before it begins, but as he says, it loses to dashing back early.

the empty pivot dtilt/utilt suggestion was to sort of emulate either without requiring jump, with empty pivot dtilt being significantly less committal than a preemptive grab and not flat-out losing to backing up early while also emulating the threat that pp mentions directy in front of you. framewise, i'm not sure how it would be slower, since ac nair/fair would require both jumpsquat and aerial startup, and in the specific scenario presented here, if you recognize that you're being advanced toward during a dash back, you'd have to dash in and shieldstop/jump backward and then nair/fair to cover that kind of approach. the pivot would require 1(?) frame to turn around, then any option like dtilt, jab, utilt, or even the ac nair/fair stuff. seems faster framewise to me, but maybe i'm mistaken?

but yeah, i guess i could see that kind of thing being difficult to execute consistently in practice. i think it would open up some cool things otherwise

 

[Snow_SM]

Is there any advice you have regarding mental game and just straight up keeping your strategies together when in competition? What's the best way to keep your head straight and remember all of these options while also observing your opponent and reacting to their playstyle? I get flustered sometimes thinking about all of the options in this game. A lot of the time when edgeguarding, but also in Neutral a fair bit. What move comes next? What is the best option at this exact moment?

The top players are top players because they are so precise with this mental fortitude. How do other players get there? Is it just about practice, I feel like even with practice it continues to happen occasionally.

 

[FE_Hector]

Is there any advice you have regarding mental game and just straight up keeping your strategies together when in competition? What's the best way to keep your head straight and remember all of these options while also observing your opponent and reacting to their playstyle? I get flustered sometimes thinking about all of the options in this game. A lot of the time when edgeguarding, but also in Neutral a fair bit. What move comes next? What is the best option at this exact moment?

The top players are top players because they are so precise with this mental fortitude. How do other players get there? Is it just about practice, I feel like even with practice it continues to happen occasionally.

Unless you started playing well before you made your SB account I would almost just tell you to focus more on being 100% sure that you can do whatever you want to whenever you want to. One of the benefits of Marth is that his punish game is relatively simple/ flowcharted, so you shouldn't drop punishes a ton. Past that, try to put moves where your opponent could be instead of where they are and see where it gets you.

Also, don't get lost in your head. My Falco knows shine WD out react, so I dont have to think about all their options. Instead, I try to space approaches to catch their possible movement and set up a punish game based on things I either know are guaranteed or are easily reactable. As Marth, I'd say learn their effective range and threaten it with your DD in such a way that you can still react to approaches, and then just punish them for approaching.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Is there any advice you have regarding mental game and just straight up keeping your strategies together when in competition?

I remember watching a YouTube video by Zero where he talked about how he has a "mental conversation" with his opponent when he is playing them. Instead of thinking about individual moves and button inputs, he kind of talks to his opponent through his play and observes how his opponent reacts to something that he does. He keeps the conversation simple in his mind so that it doesn't use up a lot of his mental power. Typically it's a good idea to think along the lines of "What happens if I try to go in on him right at this position?" or "Oh okay, he did X move to counter my move, let me try something different." It's much like when you are trying to solve a puzzle and you're figuring out which pieces fit, but that's only the conversation in your head part that has the similarity. Of course it's much faster doing this all in real time, but it helps keep your head in the game if you constantly think about interactions in the game like a conversation in your head.

What's the best way to keep your head straight and remember all of these options while also observing your opponent and reacting to their playstyle?

You're not going to remember every single option at every moment. At least, you're not going to have the time to consciously think about it. You learn what your options are through practicing, studying, and playing the gamer consistently enough to the point where most situations are intuitively learned and the options are remembered on a sub-conscious level. There's only one or two things going on on the screen at any time and your conscious thoughts can really only be for what's going on right then and there. Breaking down playing the game into different phases can help a lot too. If you can identify when you're in neutral, have advantage, punishing, edgeguarding, recovering, getting punished/comboed, etc. then you can apply these phases when you're playing and you can sub-consciously adapt to that particular phase, cause you're going to do different things in each phase cause they have different situations.

What move comes next? What is the best option at this exact moment?
.

I suggest that you don't try to approach the game with such a Mew2King mindset of "what is the best possible option here" because good players are going to recognize that you're trying to go for the best theoretically or frame-wise optimal option in any given situation. Finding out what move comes next depends on what phase you are in. When you're doing a combo or punishing, knowing what move to do next comes with a lot of practice and studying videos, as soon enough it becomes second nature. However, in neutral the "move that comes next" is typically a move you choose in reaction to what your opponent does. You're trying to get into your opponents head.

The top players are top players because they are so precise with this mental fortitude. How do other players get there? Is it just about practice, I feel like even with practice it continues to happen occasionally.

Top players almost never have to think about individual moves or options, as they tend to simplify things more into concepts and ideas that they just execute through years of practice.

 

[Taytertot]

Hey PP, big fan of you as a smasher and a person. I've been told a few times my playstyle is similar to yours haha, I don't know you personally but I feel its because our personalities are similar lol. With that said, I was hoping you can pass some of your wisdom on to me. I feel the thing that drastically holds me back as a player is my mindset, or more specifically, my ability to adapt to opponents and recognize their patterns, and gameplan.

I feel like I don't know what I should be focusing on when Im playing against someone, as a result this causes me to try to look out for too much and just completely start overthinking about everything. Could you please take me through whats going on in your head as you're playing? What are you focusing on? What things are you actively looking out for? How do you avoid overthinking lol?

i know you got an amazing write up about this already, there is a video about footies in in street fighter that i have just recently come back to after making more progress as a smasher and i finally feel that i have a more concrete understanding of how these ideas apply to smash and since adaption is also an issue that ive been working on in my own gameplay i thought there was a chance this video might have some information that would feel relevent and useful to you. if not then maybe you'll at least find it to be an interesting video or someone else might find it interesting and/or useful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQQCan5oo90

 

[fatalsolid01]

i know you got an amazing write up about this already, there is a video about footies in in street fighter that i have just recently come back to after making more progress as a smasher and i finally feel that i have a more concrete understanding of how these ideas apply to smash and since adaption is also an issue that ive been working on in my own gameplay i thought there was a chance this video might have some information that would feel relevent and useful to you. if not then maybe you'll at least find it to be an interesting video or someone else might find it interesting and/or useful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQQCan5oo90

Definitely a useful video, thanks! watched the whole thing lol. It definitely opened my head a little bit, as I feel I get wrapped up way too much in trying to play my own game instead of making an effort to really understanding/predicting what the opponent is doing at a deeper level. I, for example, related the the whiff punishment scenario a lot to marth dash dancing against a peach or sheik. If you stand at a certain spacing from her where all her attacks are out range while yours are still threatening, the peach/sheik is pretty much just left to try and dash attack. If you're not looking out for it, the dash attack is fairly hard to counter on reaction time alone. But if you're predicting they would do that, you can dash dance punish their dash attack more reliably. Curiously, what specific situations would you say you related to smash throughout the video?

 

[Kopaka]

Dr Peepee During this set (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEsp996TGak) Why is it that sometimes you choose to grab Armada after a whiffed dash attack, but not after a whiffed jab? But then later in the set, (
https://youtu.be/DEsp996TGak?t=322) you grab him after he jabs? When I saw that first grab I thought "Ok, Armada retreats and lasers once, PP stays just outside of dash attack range" and then I thought, does he just wait for Fox to do the most laggy move he could do...? But that doesn't seem to be the answer either, because you'll grab him after he whiffs jab. There's other factors I'm not seeing yet, right?

Why do you grab sometimes, but then other times you'll add another layer by waiting just a bit when it *looks* like you could have grabbed there anyways?

 

[Taytertot]

Definitely a useful video, thanks! watched the whole thing lol. It definitely opened my head a little bit, as I feel I get wrapped up way too much in trying to play my own game instead of making an effort to really understanding/predicting what the opponent is doing at a deeper level. I, for example, related the the whiff punishment scenario a lot to marth dash dancing against a peach or sheik. If you stand at a certain spacing from her where all her attacks are out range while yours are still threatening, the peach/sheik is pretty much just left to try and dash attack. If you're not looking out for it, the dash attack is fairly hard to counter on reaction time alone. But if you're predicting they would do that, you can dash dance punish their dash attack more reliably. Curiously, what specific situations would you say you related to smash throughout the video?

i definitely agree with the whiff punishment being very much about dash dancing. it also made me think about some issues i have as a roy main in PM against falcon where i feel like i cant react to a lot of falcon approaches if falcon is a certain distance from me and that i might want to try to use the second strategy of throwing out a a preemptive jab to try and stuff an aerial approach. it also got me thinking about neutral as a whole since i have a tendency to be too passive in my dash dancing or try to play neutral the same every time and so the idea of pokes beat run up (dash dance) grab, run up (dash dance) grab beats someone whos just looking to whiff punish and whiff punish beats pokes. while this isnt nearly as set in stone in smash it still has some very useful ideas when it comes to learning how to mixup one's neutral game when opponents are looking to find a way to break down your neutral.

i feel theres still more i can pull out of this video and apply to smash but i probably need some more time thinking it over and getting better at smash.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee During this set (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEsp996TGak) Why is it that sometimes you choose to grab Armada after a whiffed dash attack, but not after a whiffed jab? But then later in the set, (
https://youtu.be/DEsp996TGak?t=322) you grab him after he jabs? When I saw that first grab I thought "Ok, Armada retreats and lasers once, PP stays just outside of dash attack range" and then I thought, does he just wait for Fox to do the most laggy move he could do...? But that doesn't seem to be the answer either, because you'll grab him after he whiffs jab. There's other factors I'm not seeing yet, right?

Why do you grab sometimes, but then other times you'll add another layer by waiting just a bit when it *looks* like you could have grabbed there anyways?

Sometimes I get a bit caught off guard or he does something well or I'm looking for something else. Sometimes I'm waiting for him to be in more lag since it's not easy to grab jabs. In the instance you link, he crouches a bit after he jabs so I probably shouldn't have been able to grab him but it worked out since I think we both knew he wanted to hit confirm and I screwed him up by spacing back.

 

[Kopaka]

Sometimes I get a bit caught off guard or he does something well or I'm looking for something else. Sometimes I'm waiting for him to be in more lag since it's not easy to grab jabs. In the instance you link, he crouches a bit after he jabs so I probably shouldn't have been able to grab him but it worked out since I think we both knew he wanted to hit confirm and I screwed him up by spacing back.

Alright, yeah I see that crouch now. Besides that though, yeah there were a few more factors I didn't take account for when I watched those moments last night. I want to find out how I can better my understanding of certain situations like this, and what I should be looking for while I play, and while I study. I take it that it's possible to while studying other sets, be it your own or of other players, see these certain factors that could arise in neutral.

I really want to understand how to see certain things like this when studying sets of my own, and of others, and while playing. You've mentioned you're "always looking to be threatening" when you play, and in that moment on Battlefield when Armada retreats to laser, you're dash dancing just outside of center stage, and then you grab him after the dash attack and I thought "Wow, he didn't have to get close to Armada to be threatening and not too far away to be safe" And that's just one example. Armada probably could have done other stuff out of that laser, or any other player for that matter, and that's when I'd want to understand how you'd (or me cause I want to apply this stuff lol) stay "threatening" should they choose to do something else.

And of course they could be doing the same exact sort of stuff to you too. Which makes it all the more difficult to understand. Sometimes I do feel like I'm not exactly threatening them, or they start dash dancing back at me and I freeze up or end up on the other side, and I start swinging, and doing the things *they want me to do*. But you don't seem to end up like that too often. You always seem to understand whats going on for the most part against most players.

I often think to myself when I play "I could have avoided this. I got hit here because I don't understand certain things yet...my grab got spot dodged because I don't understand dash dancing or something at a certain level yet". And with that I'm always comparing myself to players like you. It's those factors you pointed out in your post that lead me to believe I've yet to grasp some more critical stuff I could be looking out for while I play/watch sets.

 

[Taytertot]

Alright, yeah I see that crouch now. Besides that though, yeah there were a few more factors I didn't take account for when I watched those moments last night. I want to find out how I can better my understanding of certain situations like this, and what I should be looking for while I play, and while I study. I take it that it's possible to while studying other sets, be it your own or of other players, see these certain factors that could arise in neutral.

I really want to understand how to see certain things like this when studying sets of my own, and of others, and while playing. You've mentioned you're "always looking to be threatening" when you play, and in that moment on Battlefield when Armada retreats to laser, you're dash dancing just outside of center stage, and then you grab him after the dash attack and I thought "Wow, he didn't have to get close to Armada to be threatening and not too far away to be safe" And that's just one example. Armada probably could have done other stuff out of that laser, or any other player for that matter, and that's when I'd want to understand how you'd (or me cause I want to apply this stuff lol) stay "threatening" should they choose to do something else.

And of course they could be doing the same exact sort of stuff to you too. Which makes it all the more difficult to understand. Sometimes I do feel like I'm not exactly threatening them, or they start dash dancing back at me and I freeze up or end up on the other side, and I start swinging, and doing the things *they want me to do*. But you don't seem to end up like that too often. You always seem to understand whats going on for the most part against most players.

I often think to myself when I play "I could have avoided this. I got hit here because I don't understand certain things yet...my grab got spot dodged because I don't understand dash dancing or something at a certain level yet". And with that I'm always comparing myself to players like you. It's those factors you pointed out in your post that lead me to believe I've yet to grasp some more critical stuff I could be looking out for while I play/watch sets.

i am in the exact same boat and would love to understand what im missing because at this point in my gameplay the answers seem either too vague or too specific.

on a similar note, ive been trying to constantly improve my dash dance game and still feel that i am missing a lot in terms of how to recognize exactly what im doing wrong when i get hit out of it or exactly what i did right to confirm a grab, etc. out of it. i too, look to the top players of my character to try to find the missing links in my neutral game, but i feel that there is a barrier that im unable to break in trying to understand what top players are noticing and what choices theyre making based on what they notice.

while i realize that this is a melee thread, i find that this pm video is still very applicable to melee since the movement and spacing is very relevant to marth. im trying to understand why lunchables movement is so good, i can tell its good when i watch it, but i fail to realize the major factors that make it so calculated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO57DKxlceU&list=PLFXOgPi6_N5Qzn48tN7SXQvcj_PrY-upU&index=29

if anyone has thoughts on how this movement is so effective id love to hear it because ive read many dash dancing guides and understand the basic trains of thought (i.e. DDing in and out of someone's threat zone can bait out a commitment or moving your own threat zone in and out of their space can apply pressure) but something isnt clicking in my mind when it comes to the actually situational awareness top players have when there movement is successful.

 

[ikon]

sorry if this is a lot of text, i'm not good at condensing

just a clarification on the "rules" that your marth follows, and then some questions:

1) less (swinging) is more
2) if you must swing, stick to dtilt and use it to gain stage control/make them jump/condition/observe/threaten space
3) stay grounded, but jump when they jump
4) focus on acquiring and maintaining position and kill them (corner, above marth, etc.)

so for rule 3, are you jumping on reaction to their jump or are you predicting/coercing them into jumping and swinging where they would? when against a floaty i imagine most of it is reaction, but vs a fastfaller, it doesn't seem possible to react to the jump itself early enough that you could stuff their option with a fair or nair.

assuming you are indeed making educated guesses about where to jump and swing, what factors do you usually consider and how do you weigh these options? this stuff seems to get me because i tend to consider stage positioning, whether or not they have room to dash back, if they've attempted to jump out of the corner before, what their habitual responses to my dtilts is, their percent/cc breakpoints, etc. but then my head makes some kind of mental leap and i just go with my "gut" or whatever after thinking about it. i'm not sure what the "flow" of my thoughts should be after considering these factors since the answer/path isn't linear. worst part to me is that if i guess wrong, i get smacked since i'll have jumped early. my corner pressure recently has been 90% grounded so i can minimize lost position in the event that i do guess wrong, but it feels stifling not having the reward off a fair or nair to kill earlier. this problem is even worse when they aren't in the corner and it's a standard neutral dd mirror vs someone like fox, since i have even less room for error since they have 50~% of the stage to work with.

these other few questions are marth v falco specific

1) is take laser -> run up grab a real thing? i ask specifically cause of this:
https://youtu.be/tMffDnVi9m0?t=305 where cactuar dashes out of the laser hitstun to grab. i'm somewhat sure it doesn't work at this range (it looked more like zhu just didn't expect it at all and falco looked like he was out of the landing lag slightly), but provided he was a little closer, would that range ever be safe for falco to do that height laser at? lower ones i assume can't be grabbed, but lower lasers take longer to come out so i guess you'd whack them on startup instead of the grab

2) if i put falco in the corner, how am i supposed to threaten him? my usual stuff against other characters is to dd, but falco's laser is obnoxious. it doesn't keep me in place for long, but it seems like enough of a stagger that lets him escape more often than not. if i stay at a range where i can hit him for lasering, either on startup or lag, i feel less confident in my ability to stuff his less-reactable brute-force options like a random aerial from the corner or a dash attack or ftilt or whatever. i don't want to shield cause then i can't move, i don't want to get to close or i can't threaten safely, i don't want to get too far away or else i get put into what i feel like is an unnecessary stagger. i think maybe an early jump might beat laser since i think fair comes out sooner as i fall and they have no retreating room, but again, i don't want to guess wrong and jump early or whatever. is this just a straight mixup thing?

 

[Taytertot]

sorry if this is a lot of text, i'm not good at condensing

just a clarification on the "rules" that your marth follows, and then some questions:

1) less (swinging) is more
2) if you must swing, stick to dtilt and use it to gain stage control/make them jump/condition/observe/threaten space
3) stay grounded, but jump when they jump
4) focus on acquiring and maintaining position and kill them (corner, above marth, etc.)

so for rule 3, are you jumping on reaction to their jump or are you predicting/coercing them into jumping and swinging where they would? when against a floaty i imagine most of it is reaction, but vs a fastfaller, it doesn't seem possible to react to the jump itself early enough that you could stuff their option with a fair or nair.

assuming you are indeed making educated guesses about where to jump and swing, what factors do you usually consider and how do you weigh these options? this stuff seems to get me because i tend to consider stage positioning, whether or not they have room to dash back, if they've attempted to jump out of the corner before, what their habitual responses to my dtilts is, their percent/cc breakpoints, etc. but then my head makes some kind of mental leap and i just go with my "gut" or whatever after thinking about it. i'm not sure what the "flow" of my thoughts should be after considering these factors since the answer/path isn't linear. worst part to me is that if i guess wrong, i get smacked since i'll have jumped early. my corner pressure recently has been 90% grounded so i can minimize lost position in the event that i do guess wrong, but it feels stifling not having the reward off a fair or nair to kill earlier. this problem is even worse when they aren't in the corner and it's a standard neutral dd mirror vs someone like fox, since i have even less room for error since they have 50~% of the stage to work with.

these other few questions are marth v falco specific

1) is take laser -> run up grab a real thing? i ask specifically cause of this:
https://youtu.be/tMffDnVi9m0?t=305 where cactuar dashes out of the laser hitstun to grab. i'm somewhat sure it doesn't work at this range (it looked more like zhu just didn't expect it at all and falco looked like he was out of the landing lag slightly), but provided he was a little closer, would that range ever be safe for falco to do that height laser at? lower ones i assume can't be grabbed, but lower lasers take longer to come out so i guess you'd whack them on startup instead of the grab

2) if i put falco in the corner, how am i supposed to threaten him? my usual stuff against other characters is to dd, but falco's laser is obnoxious. it doesn't keep me in place for long, but it seems like enough of a stagger that lets him escape more often than not. if i stay at a range where i can hit him for lasering, either on startup or lag, i feel less confident in my ability to stuff his less-reactable brute-force options like a random aerial from the corner or a dash attack or ftilt or whatever. i don't want to shield cause then i can't move, i don't want to get to close or i can't threaten safely, i don't want to get too far away or else i get put into what i feel like is an unnecessary stagger. i think maybe an early jump might beat laser since i think fair comes out sooner as i fall and they have no retreating room, but again, i don't want to guess wrong and jump early or whatever. is this just a straight mixup thing?

so i personally cant answer much of this but i may have a few answers for that last part about having falco in the corner. if youve just put falco in the corner but falco has enough time to make a quick action before you could go ham on him and take him offstage for the kill then i think a well placed dtilt is your best bet assuming you are in a position to pressure falco before falco gets his defenses back up. my reasoning is that if falco is on the ground in the corner and you tipper dtilt at him he's get very few options to combat you.

If he shields then youve got a mixup that slightly favors marth because if falco shields then his only option to actually hit you is to jump OoS with something which you can beat with a jab (jab should come out faster then any aerial or an early laser falco could possibly do). If youve spaced the dtilt well then you should be in a position where falco cant shield grab and if you jab it'll tipper, which would send him offstage at least a bit (even if you have to follow the jab up with a second one or another dtilt) where youd have a chance to edgeguard him. i dont think falco can shield grab marth's tipper jab.

If falco immediately jumps (i.e. predicts the dtilt) then depending on timing you may be able to dash back and punish the whiffed aerial or if falco lasers then you will still be in a position to dash away from an aerial if falco comes at you with one after the laser because the prediction jump wouldnt a have any forward momentum to it and so falco would be too far to follow up (again this assumes that falco was put in the corner and has to act very quickly to do anything before you could hit him). If falco does get a laser on you then realize that despite the laser pressure falco has, you still have a lot of movement available to you and youve got stage control. if falco tries to laser and then jump in with an aerial then you can often jab him between taking the laser and falco jumping in with a nair and in this scenario youve got plenty of space to make sure that you'll be able to punish falco jumping in with a nair after the laser. there may be even better ways of handle this second situation that i havent thought of yet that put you in much more control.

 

[tauKhan]

1) is take laser -> run up grab a real thing?

It's not even close to being a thing. Unstaled laser is +8 for falco (counting landing lag for falco) if he lands at the same time as the laser hits. Usually the laser doesn't get to travel much before falco lands. If falco tries to shoot laser too close to you, it's often possible to interrupt him before the laser comes out.


If the laser is staled at all, it does 1 frame less hitlag. I wonder if it's often worth it to take a laser shot from far away to be able to act faster OoS against later lasers.

 

[NIFOFD]

Dr Peepee I've been trying to improve how I deal with turnips against Peach, but it's been difficult to find decent discussion on the specifics of each situation in the neutral that Peach might have a turnip, and how to deal with it. A lot of people have different opinions on how to get in on Peach, and some people tend to just say "fair the turnips." It's fairly easy to get in if you hit the turnip with a falling fair since you can safely dash under it and dash attack / dtilt / grab / etc, but it isn't always practical since it takes more time to set the falling fair up than it does for Peach to chuck the turnip at you. Rising Sh fair hasn't worked out for me too well since using it with any forward momentum will knock the turnip up in front of you and Marth gets hit anyways...

Some Marth players will catch the turnip out of the air and z-drop it instantly, and some will mention that you can jab the turnip and then safely sh an aerial through it. Both of these seem pretty decent, but I don't see you do them when you play against Peach. Is there any reason for that?

Also, sometimes I see you beat the turnip with a rising fh fair, which seems to let Marth get over the turnip without getting hit by it when it's popped up. I saw you do this in your winner's final set against Armada at Apex 2015 (while on FD). I don't understand why this would be a good strategy, since it seems like it would be disadvantageous to be in the air above Peach, but I notice that you tend to come down with an auto canceled nair and it seems to work out for you pretty well. Can the Peach not just dash attack under the nair and hit Marth's legs as you come down? Or up air him if the spacing is right?

 

[Dr Peepee]

sorry if this is a lot of text, i'm not good at condensing

just a clarification on the "rules" that your marth follows, and then some questions:

1) less (swinging) is more
2) if you must swing, stick to dtilt and use it to gain stage control/make them jump/condition/observe/threaten space
3) stay grounded, but jump when they jump
4) focus on acquiring and maintaining position and kill them (corner, above marth, etc.)

so for rule 3, are you jumping on reaction to their jump or are you predicting/coercing them into jumping and swinging where they would? when against a floaty i imagine most of it is reaction, but vs a fastfaller, it doesn't seem possible to react to the jump itself early enough that you could stuff their option with a fair or nair.

assuming you are indeed making educated guesses about where to jump and swing, what factors do you usually consider and how do you weigh these options? this stuff seems to get me because i tend to consider stage positioning, whether or not they have room to dash back, if they've attempted to jump out of the corner before, what their habitual responses to my dtilts is, their percent/cc breakpoints, etc. but then my head makes some kind of mental leap and i just go with my "gut" or whatever after thinking about it. i'm not sure what the "flow" of my thoughts should be after considering these factors since the answer/path isn't linear. worst part to me is that if i guess wrong, i get smacked since i'll have jumped early. my corner pressure recently has been 90% grounded so i can minimize lost position in the event that i do guess wrong, but it feels stifling not having the reward off a fair or nair to kill earlier. this problem is even worse when they aren't in the corner and it's a standard neutral dd mirror vs someone like fox, since i have even less room for error since they have 50~% of the stage to work with.

these other few questions are marth v falco specific

1) is take laser -> run up grab a real thing? i ask specifically cause of this:
https://youtu.be/tMffDnVi9m0?t=305 where cactuar dashes out of the laser hitstun to grab. i'm somewhat sure it doesn't work at this range (it looked more like zhu just didn't expect it at all and falco looked like he was out of the landing lag slightly), but provided he was a little closer, would that range ever be safe for falco to do that height laser at? lower ones i assume can't be grabbed, but lower lasers take longer to come out so i guess you'd whack them on startup instead of the grab

2) if i put falco in the corner, how am i supposed to threaten him? my usual stuff against other characters is to dd, but falco's laser is obnoxious. it doesn't keep me in place for long, but it seems like enough of a stagger that lets him escape more often than not. if i stay at a range where i can hit him for lasering, either on startup or lag, i feel less confident in my ability to stuff his less-reactable brute-force options like a random aerial from the corner or a dash attack or ftilt or whatever. i don't want to shield cause then i can't move, i don't want to get to close or i can't threaten safely, i don't want to get too far away or else i get put into what i feel like is an unnecessary stagger. i think maybe an early jump might beat laser since i think fair comes out sooner as i fall and they have no retreating room, but again, i don't want to guess wrong and jump early or whatever. is this just a straight mixup thing?

The single biggest thing I would recommend here, considering all factors, is what happened LAST TIME they were in a situation. This is the big key when watching matches and adapting mid-match. Yes it also comes from other factors but let's focus on conditioning right now. If you have your opponent cornered as you said, what is your goal? Do you want them to overextend or do you want them to lock up? Do you want to slowly choke off their space? You need to consider what you think is strongest among those ideas or others and work on that. These rules alone will not guide everything, but conditioning(and reverse engineering it) is a great way to understand them on a deeper level. Let's suppose you want them to overextend. Initially when you corner an opponent maybe you want to encourage them to approach so you pressure them quickly with a dash/WD/jump in. Maybe you fully go in. Next time, if you show your opponent any of those actions, even from slightly different spacings/timings, what do you think they will do? They will try to counter your approach that is supposedly hidden behind that initial action by moving forward to intercept you, and you can now punish. Of course, you could also have just played back and slowly taken stage, or pressured without really committing a lot. There are many variations. The point is that you give yourself a way to create actions that your opponent can/should respond to so you can recreate situations. Once you do that, you can begin using that information against them. THEN you will understand jumping a lot better I believe.

Take laser to run grab isn't real at all! Not even close.

Falco cornered is so bodied by Marth(unless he goes to the edge maybe) lol. Standing close enough to jab Falco's laser startup is also reactable to any approaching SH Nair/Dair so you can pivot grab it. If Falco FHs you just get under and Uair or stay diagonal to him and Fair depending on %/stage/preference. If Falco DDs, he could get out kinda like you said, but you already guessed the right thing to do to head that off by early jumping and/or drifting in to Fair.

Dr Peepee I've been trying to improve how I deal with turnips against Peach, but it's been difficult to find decent discussion on the specifics of each situation in the neutral that Peach might have a turnip, and how to deal with it. A lot of people have different opinions on how to get in on Peach, and some people tend to just say "fair the turnips." It's fairly easy to get in if you hit the turnip with a falling fair since you can safely dash under it and dash attack / dtilt / grab / etc, but it isn't always practical since it takes more time to set the falling fair up than it does for Peach to chuck the turnip at you. Rising Sh fair hasn't worked out for me too well since using it with any forward momentum will knock the turnip up in front of you and Marth gets hit anyways...

Some Marth players will catch the turnip out of the air and z-drop it instantly, and some will mention that you can jab the turnip and then safely sh an aerial through it. Both of these seem pretty decent, but I don't see you do them when you play against Peach. Is there any reason for that?

Also, sometimes I see you beat the turnip with a rising fh fair, which seems to let Marth get over the turnip without getting hit by it when it's popped up. I saw you do this in your winner's final set against Armada at Apex 2015 (while on FD). I don't understand why this would be a good strategy, since it seems like it would be disadvantageous to be in the air above Peach, but I notice that you tend to come down with an auto canceled nair and it seems to work out for you pretty well. Can the Peach not just dash attack under the nair and hit Marth's legs as you come down? Or up air him if the spacing is right?

I worry about missing the catch lol and I think there are easier ways so I don't have to worry about getting hit.

LOL I honestly don't remember FH Fair'ing a turnip. Either that was a mistake or next level I'd have to go watch it.

I just think jab/Nair through(if she's in the air following it)/Fair(delayed whenever possible)/Ftilt(if it also hits her) are usually the best options.

 

[Sycorax]

I've been thinking a lot about neutral game versus Ice Climbers and I'm lost at what to do about their mixups out of wavedash. I live in constant fear that, at any time, they could WD forward and dsmash, grab, or jab. Dsmash and jab lose to shield, but dsmash beats grounded avoidance because of its wide ground coverage. Grab beats shield but loses to avoidance. Avoidance via jumping to platforms beats both so a simple answer might be to play on platforms more, but I'm not ready to try that yet. Right now I'm trying to figure out a way to play the matchup mostly grounded. I try to keep close when I can to lessen the usefulness of their wavedash, but that's not always possible. Aerial zoning might be an option, but jumping feels so risky.

Take this situation for example. After the bair, Shroomed is about at the tip of their threatening range, maybe a little inside it. How does Marth remain safe but threatening in this common neutral situation? Dash dance in and out of that threatening range? I don't like that option because ICs have this way of taking space gradually via walking or desync into blizzard or ice block. Ice block alone forces you to stop dash dancing. Maybe I can react to spotdodge desync with SH forward fair (but that feels so risky). My friend does DD desync into blizzard which gets around that reaction option. Maybe I'm missing something but DD doesn't seem that strong against ICs' burst movement.

What about limiting my movement to mostly walking and wavedashing? I remember a Fly Amanita tweet that suggested Marths do that. It still feels bad to me because you can't react to WD grab/dsmash with dtilt. It still feels better than dash dancing though.

Platform camping ICs doesn't feel right. ICs' weakness is their neutral game and camping them avoids exploiting that weakness.

Playing aggro, staying on top of them as much as possible, might be a valid option, but I haven't given it enough thought to formulate questions about it. Arc seems to play like this versus Wobbles and he gets some mileage off it.

Jumping around on platforms, but not camping them, might work. But Marth isn't particularly good at playing from platforms. He's going to have to engage the climbers on the ground eventually anyway.

To be fair, the WD dsmash/grab is a hard read on the ICs' part. However it seems very much in their favor. They get a grab punish (often a wobble) or a knockdown on Marth (which should lead into major damage or a stock).

As Marth, do I just need to learn to respect this mixup in neutral and try to out-play them? Is there any way to neutralize this threat of theirs? Can Marth play aggro well enough to always stay close to neutralize their wavedash threats? Does he need to camp platforms? I think this discussion could also apply to Luigi.

 

[Kopaka]

Dr Peepee

So here:
https://youtu.be/3qn6iwIHkic?t=219 So, your goal here....for the first time Ice gets cornered here, you get up close and Nair him. You hit him before he had the chance to overextend, and you cut off his space in the air. But then a few seconds later, you come in with a dtilt, he tries shield grabbing it and you dash away grab him back. All the different movement/attack options you do within 10 seconds pretty much all had a goal in mind. I'm kind of rushing this post and could be wording it a bit different but this is the sort of stuff we need to be looking for right? Also whatever the opponent could be wanting to accomplish too of course, cause I think you knew what Ice wanted to do in the first place

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah it's definitely like that!

 

[Greyson]

What do you think needs to change in the meta in order for Marth to be used more often at Top 8's in supermajors? Marth is a top tier character, there's not a whole lot of dispute there, and yet solo Marth mains are kind of an endangered species at this point. The obvious answer is "Practice, practice, practice," but I think the common perception right now is that Fox is a more rewarding character (better match-up spread, the impending arrival of 20XX, etc.) Of course, your return to the competitive scene will shake up a lot of stuff, but I'd like to know what Marth mains not named PPMD can do to elevate the Altean prince.

...

The answer is "Practice, practice, practice," isn't it?

 

[Dr Peepee]

What do you think needs to change in the meta in order for Marth to be used more often at Top 8's in supermajors? Marth is a top tier character, there's not a whole lot of dispute there, and yet solo Marth mains are kind of an endangered species at this point. The obvious answer is "Practice, practice, practice," but I think the common perception right now is that Fox is a more rewarding character (better match-up spread, the impending arrival of 20XX, etc.) Of course, your return to the competitive scene will shake up a lot of stuff, but I'd like to know what Marth mains not named PPMD can do to elevate the Altean prince.

...

The answer is "Practice, practice, practice," isn't it?

The answer for Marths isn't necessarily practice, since some do, but practice better. They have to outline their weak points and work on them more, kind of like what M2K did vs Armada at summit but in a more holistic sense. Marth is totally capable of doing those things though!

His ICs/Pika/Yoshi/Samus/Falco/maybe Sheik matchups need to be tuned up for starters as well.

 

[Kopaka]

Yeah it's definitely like that!

Sometimes I'd feel that I'm not making my opponent do anything or reacting the way I want them to, but that's most likely because I wasn't actually sure what my goal was in the first place. I'm starting to believe that having an understanding of these sorts of concepts improves our movement in general. (Which is why I think yours is so good. Because it's all based on this deep understanding of how to figure out your opponents goals). It's more than just seeing you dash out of a range and then dash back in and grab, it's knowing what you were thinking about in the first place in relation to what your opponent *could* be thinking as well. Which is what I took from watching those 10 or so seconds of that match. Thinking about what happened the *last time* certain situations come up is pretty helpful.

I honestly believe people would think Marth is a better character than what they think now if more players focused on these sorts of things in their practice. People dismiss Marth as the losing one in certain matchups too quickly because of subpar play from the Marths playing those matchups ;p

 

[Greyson]

That's a good point; I don't think I've seen Armada as shook as he was vs. M2K at Summit in recent memory. The tools for a Marth Renaissance are there, Marth mains just need to get to work (myself included).

This next question is a bit trickier to answer because it's a hypothetical, but how do you think Hungrybox, Armada, and Leffen would play Marth? We've seen how Mang0's Marth does some nontraditional stuff (with mixed results) that is not unlike how he plays spacies and I'm curious if you think the other top players would encounter similar roadblocks. Like, I'm imagining Hungrybox's Marth and I'm seeing a lot of retreating shorthop double fairs and almost no dtilts. I think Armada and Leffen have pocket Marths, but we seldom see those in tournament, if at all.

This question's kinda nutty and if your reply is "i dunno lol ¯\_(ツ)_/ ¯" I can respect that.