Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Kopaka]

Dr Peepee
https://youtu.be/jrRtAg3QOn8?list=PL_BeA48bYdlJ8Ccl2YwQrR3H84tkryvg2&t=397

Ok. Would attempting to understand the "less is more" mantra be more beneficial after learning to really understand other parts of the game, like having a very very solid understanding of neutral game at a higher standard, high enough to play at a top level...? What I'm trying to get at...is when I watch this set, it looks like the theories or ideas you've came up with and posted here can only *really* be put to work solidly at a high level when you *really* have a firm understanding of how to play solid Melee. Because I have won a few sets where I felt I played a level of effective minimalism (Which actually can sometimes *LOOK* like you're doing a lot, which is what I see in this set!) And then I have played many a game where I've fallen back to old habits of trying to do too much or just throwing myself at my opponent.

And yeah, emphasis on the fact that it actually can look like a player having the plan of "less is more" is doing a lot of stuff, to a spectator at least. I felt I wasn't doing a lot of stuff at all in a set where I nearly 4 stocked a Falcon going in with the plan of "less". I find that kind of ironic I'm really really interested in what you have to say to this honestly. It's a weird paradox to me.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Obviously I'll let PPMD answer for himself. In general, I think the "less is more" maxim implies that you don't have to necessarily swing to establish threats against the opponent. For example, simply dash dancing near an opponent who is in shield usually provokes some kind of action, whether it be a SH bair out of shield or what have you. You're basically instilling this idea in the opponent's head: "Look I'm pressuring you; aren't you going to try to defend yourself?" When they swing with a SH bair, you simply dash dance grab it.

 

[Kopaka]

Obviously I'll let PPMD answer for himself. In general, I think the "less is more" maxim implies that you don't have to necessarily swing to establish threats against the opponent. For example, simply dash dancing near an opponent who is in shield usually provokes some kind of action, whether it be a SH bair out of shield or what have you. You're basically instilling this idea in the opponent's head: "Look I'm pressuring you; aren't you going to try to defend yourself?" When they swing with a SH bair, you simply dash dance grab it.

Yeah, those are good points.I do think emotions and feelings play a huge part in what people or yourself will do. I think the reason why I'd fall back into bad habits is because of negative feelings. Instilling those ideas to your opponent really is "More".

 

[A_Reverie]

Dr Peepee
https://youtu.be/jrRtAg3QOn8?list=PL_BeA48bYdlJ8Ccl2YwQrR3H84tkryvg2&t=397

Ok. Would attempting to understand the "less is more" mantra be more beneficial after learning to really understand other parts of the game, like having a very very solid understanding of neutral game at a higher standard, high enough to play at a top level...? What I'm trying to get at...is when I watch this set, it looks like the theories or ideas you've came up with and posted here can only *really* be put to work solidly at a high level when you *really* have a firm understanding of how to play solid Melee. Because I have won a few sets where I felt I played a level of effective minimalism (Which actually can sometimes *LOOK* like you're doing a lot, which is what I see in this set!) And then I have played many a game where I've fallen back to old habits of trying to do too much or just throwing myself at my opponent.

And yeah, emphasis on the fact that it actually can look like a player having the plan of "less is more" is doing a lot of stuff, to a spectator at least. I felt I wasn't doing a lot of stuff at all in a set where I nearly 4 stocked a Falcon going in with the plan of "less". I find that kind of ironic I'm really really interested in what you have to say to this honestly. It's a weird paradox to me.

You will start feeling the effects of "less is more" especially once you dip into the "second-tier" mindgames revolving around things like punishing what a person does AFTER they land/extend rather than just going for a whiff punish, which I consider "first-tier."

Imagine a Falcon jumps in with N-air. It doesn't hit, and he lands. A lot of players will go for DD grab, but Falcon can spotdodge, jab, or roll to escape this. This is usually because the player attempting the whiff punish isn't being mindful of what move their opponent just used and the amount of safety it has against the option they chose (DD grab). The idea behind less is more is, I believe, to go deeper into your opponents decision tree and place yourself in a position to challenge as many as you can, simply by being in the right spot.

So in the previous example, we can consider all of Falcon's options after landing and then pick one that covers as much as possible. A spaced D-tilt in this case is very good, because it beats jab, is safe on shield, can beat spotdodge by repeating the attack, or by grabbing, and if they choose to roll you can just react. Lastly, if they choose to dash away you can respond by following their dash and taking stage for every moment they have their back turned to you. The thing to keep in mind here is that all of this can be done without even pressing the A button. You can simply place yourself in that spot after they land and they're forced to make a likely-to-lose decision.

This was a more simplistic example. I'm sure Dr Peepee can provide more detailed/advanced examples of this. If you keep something like this in mind, you'll feel your movement beginning to carry more threat. But one more point I'd like to touch on is another effect "less is more" can have. If your opponent sees you swinging frequently, missing half of the time, they won't have to respect your space as much because they can see you're just swinging errantly. If instead they see you swinging very seldomly, but every time you do they get hit and are threatened with an even bigger punish, they'll be forced to respect your presence more. So you have to be careful not to reveal to your opponent that you don't know when to swing, otherwise they can capitalize on this.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee
https://youtu.be/jrRtAg3QOn8?list=PL_BeA48bYdlJ8Ccl2YwQrR3H84tkryvg2&t=397

Ok. Would attempting to understand the "less is more" mantra be more beneficial after learning to really understand other parts of the game, like having a very very solid understanding of neutral game at a higher standard, high enough to play at a top level...? What I'm trying to get at...is when I watch this set, it looks like the theories or ideas you've came up with and posted here can only *really* be put to work solidly at a high level when you *really* have a firm understanding of how to play solid Melee. Because I have won a few sets where I felt I played a level of effective minimalism (Which actually can sometimes *LOOK* like you're doing a lot, which is what I see in this set!) And then I have played many a game where I've fallen back to old habits of trying to do too much or just throwing myself at my opponent.

And yeah, emphasis on the fact that it actually can look like a player having the plan of "less is more" is doing a lot of stuff, to a spectator at least. I felt I wasn't doing a lot of stuff at all in a set where I nearly 4 stocked a Falcon going in with the plan of "less". I find that kind of ironic I'm really really interested in what you have to say to this honestly. It's a weird paradox to me.

First of all, this is necessary to be successful with Marth. Period. The more you work to understand this, then the better off you'll be. When you understand it very well, exceptions and all, at that point you are high level =p

Less is more doesn't mean do nothing, but it does refer to how much sword you use primarily. Really though, it's primarily to discourage people from approaching with aerials or attacking on the ground too much. Marth has so much lag on his moves so it's about preventing that mostly. It's also about preventing having your back to your opponent some so you don't overdo movement, but this is just complicating things so let's stick to sword.

Marth's attacks are mostly laggy(front lag, end lag, or both) and also arcs(not constant hitboxes like fox nair). These things mean Marth CANNOT swing often(at least not super close to the opponent....if you do it at threatening range it's another discussion). Knowing this, your best bet is to swing at times you believe the opponent is vulnerable, or such that it prevents the opponent from challenging you easily. Swinging just because you want to get in will usually not work. Marth isn't designed for that but for efficiency, and going against that will often get you punished. This means you must be incremental, taking some space to push your opponent and if they throw out something to swing at you are ready, OR you swing on approaches that you are very sure about.

I imagine you can think of exceptions to this rule, and certainly they exist, but exceptions make much more sense once you understand the rule intellectually and by feel within the game. I highly recommend looking there first.

 

[PedXing]

For a beginner, like me, I've noticed the less is more thing is really something I need to work on. I've found it okay to kind of implement in the bigger stages (FD, DL, PS) but I find it difficult to stay safe on the smaller stages, with seemingly less options. Not really a question I guess, just an observation!

 

[Kopaka]

Dr Peepee It absolutely means a whole lot to me when you respond to these posts. It really really does. Which is why I just want to ramble for a bit on what I've been seeing through my play, but knowing you might respond means a lot. Especially knowing that you take the time out of your day and the things you might be dealing with to respond to this random guy from the west coast. That's a level of openness I want to take from.

I just got home from a local and basically had my own play deconstructed in tournament and in friendlies. I come home and read that post and realize even more how flawed a lot of parts of my play are, and things I really truly don't understand yet. All this happened in my head, but someone said I've improved since the last time I played them. Weird.

That's weird to me because...most of the time when I play, I always have this standard of how things should be done. Having a practice partner who was MIOM ranked ~50 once has gotten this into my head. Now the important part I'm getting at, is I think I'm too afraid of accepting my current level of play. I might be too afraid to admit I'm not near where I want to be. I'm always thinking about how much better I could potentially be doing things. Which is good, right? Isn't that what pushes people to get better? But I'm self-conscious about it now. I think I'm afraid to let myself laugh at the game and have fun sometimes. But I have the most *fun* when I'm taking a set the most *seriously*. This confuses me and I think distracts me from improving. I sometimes ask myself: should I be trying to socialize more with people or should I be focusing on the games and learning from mistakes/etc? If I try socializing, I feel like I'm being lazy. If I focus during friendlies, I feel like I'm coming off as an elitist or someone people don't want to play with.

 

[Life]

Dr Peepee Have you ever done a guide to reviewing Smash VODs? Or is there something similar by someone else you'd recommend? I don't claim to know everyone, but you seem like by far the most articulate top-level player, so I thought maybe you'd have some insight into that process. Thanks!

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee It absolutely means a whole lot to me when you respond to these posts. It really really does. Which is why I just want to ramble for a bit on what I've been seeing through my play, but knowing you might respond means a lot. Especially knowing that you take the time out of your day and the things you might be dealing with to respond to this random guy from the west coast. That's a level of openness I want to take from.

I just got home from a local and basically had my own play deconstructed in tournament and in friendlies. I come home and read that post and realize even more how flawed a lot of parts of my play are, and things I really truly don't understand yet. All this happened in my head, but someone said I've improved since the last time I played them. Weird.

That's weird to me because...most of the time when I play, I always have this standard of how things should be done. Having a practice partner who was MIOM ranked ~50 once has gotten this into my head. Now the important part I'm getting at, is I think I'm too afraid of accepting my current level of play. I might be too afraid to admit I'm not near where I want to be. I'm always thinking about how much better I could potentially be doing things. Which is good, right? Isn't that what pushes people to get better? But I'm self-conscious about it now. I think I'm afraid to let myself laugh at the game and have fun sometimes. But I have the most *fun* when I'm taking a set the most *seriously*. This confuses me and I think distracts me from improving. I sometimes ask myself: should I be trying to socialize more with people or should I be focusing on the games and learning from mistakes/etc? If I try socializing, I feel like I'm being lazy. If I focus during friendlies, I feel like I'm coming off as an elitist or someone people don't want to play with.

Being relaxed is what makes people most effective. Be certain of what route you need to take and then follow it. For example, maybe you want to socialize some then go back into focusing. Maybe you need to explain yourself to your practice partners so they know you're serious because you love the game and then can enjoy it freely. You know what you're currently doing isn't working, so at the very least find out what feels good and start trying that.

Dr Peepee Have you ever done a guide to reviewing Smash VODs? Or is there something similar by someone else you'd recommend? I don't claim to know everyone, but you seem like by far the most articulate top-level player, so I thought maybe you'd have some insight into that process. Thanks!

Nothing out there is good for that yet, and I sorely want to change this. It may be a bit before I can do it well, but I really want to help the community in this area.

 

[Kopaka]

Dr Peepee Thanks. I think what would feel good for me is just going about it without fear. Making that my goal at the next local would take a huge amount of anxiety off my chest honestly. Cause it's been starting to build up. I want to go back to enjoying myself at tournies, while still being determined to learn as much as I can

And back on the subject of what you posted to keep it going (Amazing post btw. Probably one of the most helpful ones yet because of the potential it has the more you aim to understand it). What I'm also taking from your post is that really learning this would help you be more overall prepared to face opponents of varying skill levels and styles. To be able to safely and confidently be aggressive against opponents who are on paper better than you so long as you have the discipline already.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Getting over the "I should lose to this player" mentality is rough. The game is pretty lopsided when you play somebody in a different skill tier than you. But you can't beat yourself up too much. I think the best response is to try your best always and then try to learn from defeat should it come your way.

 

[xXadevs2000Xx]

Getting over the "I should lose to this player" mentality is rough.

I think getting over the "I shouldn't lose to this player" is a lot harder.

 

[A_Reverie]

I think getting over the "I shouldn't lose to this player" is a lot harder.

The reality is that for any given opponent, you have the same clean slate available to you no matter their strength. It's a puzzle for every foe, and that is part of why tournament experience is really important. Training the skills required to analyze an opponent and solve their "puzzle" can only really be learned in a live tournament match, where both players are in it to win.

Dr Peepee says being relaxed makes people most effective, and I agree. A clear head and a calm state allows you to make decisions and find solutions based on knowledge rather than emotion or, even worse, desperation or even pride. Going up against a known player and immediately thinking "I shouldn't lose" already begins to color your thoughts ,so it can disrupt the way you would make decisions under different circumstances.

The reason I think it's so hard is because it's impossible not to react to some degree playing someone you think is weaker. So you play without much expectation, but playing without expectation neuters your decision making. You have to try and return to the clean slate no matter who you play, and play the match with the information you're given instead of some preconceived idea that you won't lose.

And even if you do win, keeping this mentality can do wonders for your learning curve. Instead of stepping away from your match with a lower skill player going "I knew that would happen," you want to look for as many "I didn't know that!" moments as possible, whether they're from your end or theirs. If you can get the match recorded that's even better. I think a lot of this can be applied the other way around when playing someone you think is stronger. I've noticed when watching most top players, especially Mango, is their extreme calm demeanor during gameplay. I think it's important for every player to train themselves to reach that level of calm at all times during a tournament set, whether you're up 3 stocks or on your last.

 

[Kopaka]

I think getting over the "I shouldn't lose to this player" is a lot harder.

It very well can be. I've been struggling with it. Gotta de-ego yourself sometimes and see things for the way they are happening instead of identifying them as bad or good. It's easier said than done though. If this is any help to anyone I guess I'll open up about what happened at the last local I went to. I lost to someone I thought I "shouldn't" lose to. He simply used way more lasers with Falco than I had been previously used to playing him before and I got frantic and was afraid of losing and didn't want to adapt. I lost and I exploded in frustration and cursed. I'm really ashamed of how I acted when I lost it but you have to look forward from that stuff. But what a waste of time it is to just see it as such a negative thing instead of a way to improve and adapt to a new situation. I could of looked at it as a learning experience but I was too focused on wanting results.

so yeah easier said than done lol. BUT IT MUST BE DONEEEE

 

[AirFair]

Gotta de-ego yourself sometimes and see things for the way they are happening instead of identifying them as bad or good

I see you there lol. The Inner Game of Tennis is a good book. Detached observation is a really strong way to examine your play.

 

[Kopaka]

I see you there lol. The Inner Game of Tennis is a good book. Detached observation is a really strong way to examine your play.

That's the thing. I have read the book and praise it all the time. The real step is having the discipline to apply its teachings even in the toughest of situations.

 

[Life]

Question re: the phrase "jump when they jump." Is that supposed to be reacting to their jump, or reading it? If reacting, how do you account for fastfallers that can be on the ground again by the time you're airborne? If reading, how do you get a consistent jump read against a good player?

 

[FE_Hector]

Question re: the phrase "jump when they jump." Is that supposed to be reacting to their jump, or reading it? If reacting, how do you account for fastfallers that can be on the ground again by the time you're airborne? If reading, how do you get a consistent jump read against a good player?

It's more for vs Marth/Falcon and other slightly lighter chars and ones with higher jumps.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Question re: the phrase "jump when they jump." Is that supposed to be reacting to their jump, or reading it? If reacting, how do you account for fastfallers that can be on the ground again by the time you're airborne? If reading, how do you get a consistent jump read against a good player?

Reactions and reads play in different proportions at different times to different people. I don't think it's a useful analyzing lens.

You can react to jumps but it's hard. If you're prepared for the opponent to jump based on your prior actions then the reaction is much easier. Sometimes you guess.

The primary starting purpose is knowing that Marth wins air-to-air but going air-to-ground is much harder for him. Then you begin trying to get people to jump vs you. This is where my first statement about prior actions is important. If you beat someone ground-to-ground(which marth does vs the whole cast imo) then the opponent is forced to jump.

 

[Barbeque]

Dr Peepee can you please sum up the sheik matchup+stage counter in like 3/4 sentences. i think it is marths worst matchup. i didn't know they can di out of an upthrow follow up

 

[PedXing]

Hi PP, just watched your video with the fixed audio and I'm fascinated with the answer to the question about hours and people practice. I love the idea of shadowboxing and thing that idea is very self explanatory, and something I want to start implementing myself. In a sense, it goes hand in hand with theory-crafting right? I just wanted to clarify with the video analysis, do you mean analysing yourself, others, or both?

And when analysing a video, until recently I was just looking at what they were doing, rather than why they were doing it? (In particular using your set vs Leffen at Apex.) Is that generally what you want to do while analysing a video? Look at why?

 

[xXadevs2000Xx]

i didn't know they can di out of an upthrow follow up

Uhh... you have guaranteed followups on all DIs at different ranges.

You can utilt all of Sheik's DIs from around 22%.
You can FJ uair no DI for a while and you can FJ fair for a while too on DI away.

And even when they can double jump out, they're still losing their DJ.
Once they've used it, the have little to no options for coming down, so you just juggle them and take them to the edge of the stage.

 

[AirFair]

After 90% there aren't any guaranteed followups.
21%-30% utilt is guaranteed off uthrow, as long as you remember to turnaround if she DIs behind you.
after that, you get fj followups I think.

 

[Barbeque]

at somewhere a little over 10% i upthrowed a sheik and they full di'd away from me forwards and i could not follow up an uptilt i am certain, it missed. i would have guessed it would not work at a later % then. and her second jump is pretty fast and gets height fast. but they definetly can get second hop out mid%, and from there its a guessing game/ if the plats will work in my favour at a juggle attempt. but i guess it's full hop up airs and fairs to maintain stage.

 

[AirFair]

before 21% they do have a small frame window to jump out.
I know that uthrow at around 13% can get you a utilt, but even if it misses, you can often get their double jump, so there is benefit to that. It's the same reason that uthrow utilt is used against marth at the same percent, since it's either the hit or the double jump.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee can you please sum up the sheik matchup+stage counter in like 3/4 sentences. i think it is marths worst matchup. i didn't know they can di out of an upthrow follow up

read kadano's op in his thread for the uthrow stuff. this alone will make your life way easier.

Hi PP, just watched your video with the fixed audio and I'm fascinated with the answer to the question about hours and people practice. I love the idea of shadowboxing and thing that idea is very self explanatory, and something I want to start implementing myself. In a sense, it goes hand in hand with theory-crafting right? I just wanted to clarify with the video analysis, do you mean analysing yourself, others, or both?

And when analysing a video, until recently I was just looking at what they were doing, rather than why they were doing it? (In particular using your set vs Leffen at Apex.) Is that generally what you want to do while analysing a video? Look at why?

Analyzing yourself, others, anything you can get your hands on is good. You want to find out the WHY for every little action. As many whys as possible. The more the better. My general advice for now(until I put out something more structured about it) is "look at when someone gets hit, and find out why."

 

[FE_Hector]

Analyzing yourself, others, anything you can get your hands on is good. You want to find out the WHY for every little action. As many whys as possible. The more the better. My general advice for now(until I put out something more structured about it) is "look at when someone gets hit, and find out why."

I spoke with Zhu about this briefly the other day, and he said he thinks figuring out exactly WHY neutral was lost each time it was and determining WHY the non-true combos worked is an excellent way to look at it.

 

[Taytertot]

Dr Peepee have you read the book The Talent Code? i imagine at least some of the information in it wouldnt be news to you but i have found personally that it has changed the way i approach improvement and i thought you might appreciate some of the ideas in it when it comes to getting better at smash or anything for that matter.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee have you read the book The Talent Code? i imagine at least some of the information in it wouldnt be news to you but i have found personally that it has changed the way i approach improvement and i thought you might appreciate some of the ideas in it when it comes to getting better at smash or anything for that matter.

ill look into it some, thanks

 

[AustinRC]

Dr Peepee When u gon make a viduh on marf? I'm sure people in here would love a video on dis dude. Myself included. ^,-

 

[xXadevs2000Xx]

PP, why don't I really see you or other Marth players utilizing his haxdash very much?

His ledge game isn't very good as it is, so why not utilize something that can add greatly to it?

 

[Face of /b/]

What do you find to be the best use for Marth's nair? I've thrown it out a couple of times during a chain grab instead of the traditional up-tilt or up-air and it sort of feels right, but I'd like to know what other uses I can get out of it.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee When u gon make a viduh on marf? I'm sure people in here would love a video on dis dude. Myself included. ^,-

fuh u

PP, why don't I really see you or other Marth players utilizing his haxdash very much?

His ledge game isn't very good as it is, so why not utilize something that can add greatly to it?

I don't feel I've needed it, but I definitely can do it and practice it. I bring it out when I feel it's most necessary and like having it only for those times so it gets a stronger response.

 

[PedXing]

Hey PP, and again anyone who wishes to answer, what's the best way for a beginner to practice spacing? Is it just playing the game?

I think I understand general Marth spacing concepts, to a degree, but in a game it seems harder to execute, so I was wondering if there was anything you could specifically do to improve a spacing game?

 

[Kopaka]

Hey PP, and again anyone who wishes to answer, what's the best way for a beginner to practice spacing? Is it just playing the game?

I think I understand general Marth spacing concepts, to a degree, but in a game it seems harder to execute, so I was wondering if there was anything you could specifically do to improve a spacing game?

You can learn it through play, yes. So what I do is: You can observe what it looks and feels like to throw out moves in bad spacing. (Dtilting when you're right next to your opponent, over shooting a Nair on their shield and landing behind them, or *right* in front of them). Take a mental note (or actual note, whatever you prefer) of when this happens so you can go "oh, ok, I shouldn't be doing that move at that spacing, that's way too close" You can observe your spacing of movement this way too. It can all be carried over to pretty much anything. Also observe how Marth players you like watching use their moves.

EDIT: This basically transcends into "I got hit. Why?"

 

[PedXing]

You can learn it through play, yes. So what I do is: You can observe what it looks and feels like to throw out moves in bad spacing. (Dtilting when you're right next to your opponent, over shooting a Nair on their shield and landing behind them, or *right* in front of them). Take a mental note (or actual note, whatever you prefer) of when this happens so you can go "oh, ok, I shouldn't be doing that move at that spacing, that's way too close" You can observe your spacing of movement this way too. It can all be carried over to pretty much anything. Also observe how Marth players you like watching use their moves.

EDIT: This basically transcends into "I got hit. Why?"

Thanks, I tried to apply what you said when I played yesterday and it really helped. I still lost, but I felt a lot more in control and confident about approaches.

 

[xXadevs2000Xx]

Dr Peepee http://oddshot.tv/shot/armadaugs-2016051223192283

 

[Dr Peepee]

LOL well it's true I could drop Marth for serious tourney purposes, but it's also true I could be doing WAY WAY WAY better vs Armada's Peach with Falco. My bigger concern for that decision is what I want to express when I play and what character(s?) fits me best/will survive the test of time. No decision has been made right now though and I'm interested in how I'll perceive my characters when I recover my full thinking and playing capabilities.

Armada being respectful is legit as always too!

 

[FE_Hector]

but it's also true I could be doing WAY WAY WAY better vs Armada's Peach with Falco

Falco's floaty MUs are super interesting and fun to me, so I'd love to see this.

 

[fatalsolid01]

Hey PP, big fan of you as a smasher and a person. I've been told a few times my playstyle is similar to yours haha, I don't know you personally but I feel its because our personalities are similar lol. With that said, I was hoping you can pass some of your wisdom on to me. I feel the thing that drastically holds me back as a player is my mindset, or more specifically, my ability to adapt to opponents and recognize their patterns, and gameplan.

I feel like I don't know what I should be focusing on when Im playing against someone, as a result this causes me to try to look out for too much and just completely start overthinking about everything. Could you please take me through whats going on in your head as you're playing? What are you focusing on? What things are you actively looking out for? How do you avoid overthinking lol?