Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[A_Reverie]

'Dtilt is not a combo move..." For some reason I'm only just understanding the meaning of this, but it's so true.

Never thought about the walking IASA either. Also "t's much wiser to retreat until I know how someone would respond to being poked" is super true. Are you like a top 5 player or something PP? Because dang that's some really good advice. holy moley

Practicing repeating D-tilts out of crouch walk is something I've been neglecting to practice...

 

[Kopaka]

I mean, I've realized that Dtilt -> Observe is a thing, but I had been going at it by always doing a dash either away or to out of the Dtilt. Which is like, only good if you really know why you did the direction you dashed.

 

[A_Reverie]

Dr Peepee Hey I noticed on Reddit you commented on down smash being "the future" yada yada

I've been wondering for a while what you thought of Marth's CC down smash. On the surface it seems inconveniently slow but it seems to knock down at really early percents and I feel like it could be a useful tool for resetting a situation after netting a CC or even allowing you to take back some stage after getting pushed out and CCing something like a Fox dash attack.

 

[xXadevs2000Xx]

Dr Peepee Hey I noticed on Reddit you commented on down smash being "the future" yada yada

I've been wondering for a while what you thought of Marth's CC down smash. On the surface it seems inconveniently slow but it seems to knock down at really early percents and I feel like it could be a useful tool for resetting a situation after netting a CC or even allowing you to take back some stage after getting pushed out and CCing something like a Fox dash attack.

I disagree with dsmash as a "get off me" tool. Fox can CC non tippered dsmash to 71% (33% if they aren't crouching)
It's also a really long move and even ASDI down + tech in place might give them time to punish you.


However, you've probably seen the "Marth dsmash setups" video which shows that you can CC getup attacks withing a certain range and sets up for a tippered dsmash.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee Hey I noticed on Reddit you commented on down smash being "the future" yada yada

I've been wondering for a while what you thought of Marth's CC down smash. On the surface it seems inconveniently slow but it seems to knock down at really early percents and I feel like it could be a useful tool for resetting a situation after netting a CC or even allowing you to take back some stage after getting pushed out and CCing something like a Fox dash attack.

Agreed with above poster on gtfo usage.

People have always hyped Dsmash as "the future" but I didn't believe it so much until I saw that video haha =p

Dsmash is neat in that it comes out really fast in front and hits hard, but the lag is terrible even for Marth attack standards. I've played with it off and on and it does have a few strange "gtfo" uses I've found but can't always explain or reliably suggest as well as kill potential off of throws or weak hits at high(ish) percents. So it's easier for me to recommend as a kill confirm tool than one to win neutral with, but I'm sure there are ways to examine Dsmash in that vein as well that aren't known or known well.

 

[A_Reverie]

I disagree with dsmash as a "get off me" tool. Fox can CC non tippered dsmash to 71% (33% if they aren't crouching)
It's also a really long move and even ASDI down + tech in place might give them time to punish you.


However, you've probably seen the "Marth dsmash setups" video which shows that you can CC getup attacks withing a certain range and sets up for a tippered dsmash.

Yeah I was thinking it would only be useful for moves that don't let your opponent CC before getting hit by it. The laggy-ish stuff like a spacie dash attack or some smashes. Even if those cases it's probably better to just dash out and punish with something like a grab.

 

[xXadevs2000Xx]

Yeah I was thinking it would only be useful for moves that don't let your opponent CC before getting hit by it. The laggy-ish stuff like a spacie dash attack or some smashes. Even if those cases it's probably better to just dash out and punish with something like a grab.

Even if they aren't crouching (such as in a dash attack), they can CC to 33%.
And after that they can ASDI down and tech in place.

Front hitbox comes out frame 5, and the animation lasts 64 frames (IASA 62).
Tech in place is 26 frames long, so that would give them 31 frames to punish you....... which is pretty bad.

I think PP is right when he says to think of it as a kill confirm move, since it's animation is so long that it will be punished very hard in most other situations.

Speaking of, this dsmash rest punish setup is pretty awesome:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqLErmrJ9xE

 

[A_Reverie]

Speaking of, this dsmash rest punish setup is pretty awesome:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqLErmrJ9xE

Such happy music for murdering a poor baloon.

 

[Sutekh]

Such happy music for murdering a poor baloon.

The balloon deserves it.

 

[AirFair]

Hey Dr Peepee , I was looking at Marth vs. IC's stuff, and I had a question about neutral.

One example I can pull from your set vs Nintendude at Civil War 6 was the aggressive jumping. You would often SH and then late fair when the IC's would wd in. Do you feel that this sort of aggressive jump, which I am used to seeing mainly in the corner, is something that is more favorable vs IC's, and how safe is it? Besides the usual ground game I've come to learn, the use of late fair like that was new for me.

I ask because it's different from the jumping that I asked you about before, when you mentioned your rule.

https://youtu.be/mgsh36W9u0o?t=33s (twice, over ice block, which I can understand, and the second was for the wd in)

Thanks!

 

[Dr Peepee]

I didn't play that set very well and was learning the matchup at the time. I still haven't put everything together for it.

That said, you want to be in a position where ICs can't WD inward without getting hit, so SH into them from farther away allows you to put a Fair out on reaction if you see them WD to you.

In general in this matchup, and many mid/low tier matchups, you don't need to use movement so much as zoning(something old marths/mango use a lot) since they cannot challenge your moves and have a harder time maneuvering around them since their moves or movement are often weaker than top tiers'.

 

[Dr. Bread]

i feel like marth has a lot of moves that are arguably bad moves, but which are also occasionally the best move in your arsenal. so the opportunities can be so hard to spot or set up for that both you and your opponent will rarely remember those moves exist at all.

d-smash is in all honesty the pinnacle of that kind of move. Would definitely help if the spacing on tipper d-smash was a bit more lenient, i swear its like threading a needle.

 

[Uma]

Hey Dr Peepee , any thoughts on Mango picking up Marth for tournament use and have you been talking to him about Marth stuff? Would love for you to do one of your long analysis posts on his Marth and the things it does right and wrong.

 

[Sutekh]

I've been working on ledge-teching after I up-b to the stage, but I've been having problems getting it consistently. My question is, are you able to input a tech buffer on the same frame you start an attack (obviously up-b in this situation) or can you not initiate both actions on the same frame?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey Dr Peepee , any thoughts on Mango picking up Marth for tournament use and have you been talking to him about Marth stuff? Would love for you to do one of your long analysis posts on his Marth and the things it does right and wrong.

I feel like his Marth doesn't cover anything his Falco or Fox can already do, but perhaps he will develop it more so that's not the case. I just don't see him playing vs Sheiks or the ditto or maybe even vs Falco well enough to warrant picking him but still worrying about getting CP'd. I'd love to see what he ends up doing though since he finds unique solutions to problems.

 

[FE_Hector]

I feel like his Marth doesn't cover anything his Falco or Fox can already do, but perhaps he will develop it more so that's not the case. I just don't see him playing vs Sheiks or the ditto or maybe even vs Falco well enough to warrant picking him but still worrying about getting CP'd. I'd love to see what he ends up doing though since he finds unique solutions to problems.

From what I've heard, Leffen's absence makes him feel as though he has no need any longer for him to keep up the Falco. Marth is a simpler character for him to play, and as such doesn't require as much work to keep up as Falco does/did. On top of that, I'm pretty sure Mango believes that Marth will be a far better pick for him vs floaties (read: Armada and HBox) because he often complains about having to play PERFECTLY in order to beat Armada's Peach and HBox. Playing Marth will, in his mind (again, from what I've heard), make the MUs far more doable for him.

 

[Dr Peepee]

From what I've heard, Leffen's absence makes him feel as though he has no need any longer for him to keep up the Falco. Marth is a simpler character for him to play, and as such doesn't require as much work to keep up as Falco does/did. On top of that, I'm pretty sure Mango believes that Marth will be a far better pick for him vs floaties (read: Armada and HBox) because he often complains about having to play PERFECTLY in order to beat Armada's Peach and HBox. Playing Marth will, in his mind (again, from what I've heard), make the MUs far more doable for him.

He's going to play Marth vs Peach and Puff???

......

I'm not a believer, but if he can make the trade to live a bit longer and still get edgeguards/kills then it could be doable. I think he just needs to get back up on his laser camp horse with Fox since he could beat Armada's peach fine with that and won't do it now, similar thing with Hbox's puff but Hbox has gotten better.

 

[Uma]

Dr Peepee I agree that I can't see many situations that Marth could help him really, and I don't agree with his thoughts that playing Marth will make him have to play less perfect against floaties, Hbox and Armada still combo the mess out of Marth.

Also have you seen Colbol's punish game on FD? It's pretty much unique only to his Marth and it's really interesting, he basically uses bairs and reverse fairs to combo spacies offstage to spike them rather than continuing the chaingrab. I'll link you an example, I'm really interested in this since I saw it live and lost my ****. I asked him about it but Colin doesn't really open up much about gameplay and just said Marth is really fun -_-

https://www.twitch.tv/polaritygg/v/59766736 skip to 8:15:45 for Colbols Marth vs Plups fox.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Well Mango is right he won't get hit quite as hard for mistakes on average, but hes also probably not going to punish as hard on average or get kills as easily. They will still hit pretty hard and be able to kill him so it seems worse to me.

Yeah I actually think ColBol's Bairs are wonderful for setting up kills and no one is doing it yet(well ken and azen did it years ago but that's not the point). It's cool because he's doing them in places and positions most Marths would Uair. Definitely something I wanna steal =p

 

[Uma]

After my schoolwork is done this week I plan to go through some CFL local vods and try to copy the exact strings he's doing and what percent he does them at. Also his approaches are wonky too to set up his custom combos, like he goes for dash attack so often because it has a similar knockback/trajectory to uptilt which he uses to start his reverse fair combos. I'll post what I can figure out by Friday.

 

[Choice Mheat]

Hey Dr Peepee on the topic of countering aggression. You have excellent reactions and effective movement to bait out crappy approaches, and I think this works especially well against more aggressive players.

Here is a match where you played against lucky, an aggressive fox and although I know you didn’t play as good as you usually do, you clutched it.
https://youtu.be/3TIPxDu-vf4?t=8m2s


Here’s Lucky playing against Cactuar, who plays Marth pretty much the same as you. Except Cactuar lost in this case.
https://youtu.be/vo-ZTISIMkg?t=3m38s


Where is the disconnect? Did you execute better? I know you did a better job of capitalizing on throws, but is there a fundamental difference in the way you played lucky? Thanks as always Dr.
(Also I realize how stupidly large of a topic this is and this question is practically asking "what did I do wrong" but I'm trying to figure out the core mentality)

 

[Dr Peepee]

cactuar and i do not play that similarly in my opinion. but regardless that isnt the issue. the issue is simply he hasn't developed his game enough yet(primarily his punishes) and i have developed that more. of course there is much more to say but in his case that would be the biggest factor.

 

[Choice Mheat]

Pretending that you're his coach, the best thing he could do is make a tech training regimen? do you think 20XX is the end all punish teacher?

 

[Uma]

Pretending that you're his coach, the best thing he could do is make a tech training regimen? do you think 20XX is the end all punish teacher?

Developing a better punish game goes far beyond just improving your tech skill

 

[Choice Mheat]

lol really??? I guess my question was a lot scrubbier than I meant it to be.

 

[Dr. Bread]

Developing a better punish game goes far beyond just improving your tech skill

20XX as in the melee mod that causes CPU's to DI randomly and randomly select tech options.

 

[FE_Hector]

He's going to play Marth vs Peach and Puff???

......

I'm not a believer, but if he can make the trade to live a bit longer and still get edgeguards/kills then it could be doable. I think he just needs to get back up on his laser camp horse with Fox since he could beat Armada's peach fine with that and won't do it now, similar thing with Hbox's puff but Hbox has gotten better.

I know it's ridiculous, but that's what I heard from a few people in the Falco Discord. We'll see at the Summit 2, though. He said it should make a lot of appearances there.

EDIT: Apparently Tafo has heard the same. http://prntscr.com/aragti Just an image.

 

[AirFair]

LOL Mango's marth vs puff. That should be fun. I like his aerial zoning. I just don't see it winning very convincingly.

 

[Uma]

Yeah and theres no way hes gonna learn pivot fsmashs imo

 

[FE_Hector]

Yeah and theres no way hes gonna learn pivot fsmashs imo

You don't really have to master pivot fsmashes or pivot grabs or honestly pivot anything with any character in order to be really good with them. I'm not saying that pivot fsmashes aren't a nice tool, but they're in no way necessary.

 

[Uma]

I wasn't trying to say you have to be able to do pivot fsmashes to have a good Marth, I was saying the only Marth to beat Hbox in like years has been Pewpewu who used pivot fsmashes to win the set

 

[FE_Hector]

I wasn't trying to say you have to be able to do pivot fsmashes to have a good Marth, I was saying the only Marth to beat Hbox in like years has been Pewpewu who used pivot fsmashes to win the set

I'm not trying to take away from PPUs win at all, but honestly... no MUs vs Puff have been explored at all. HBox can kinda just do his own thing and beat people. Nobody has some super amazing strategy that forces him to "play the MU." We've seen Armada's Fox start to do it, but that's pretty much all. And it's definitely underexplored for Marth.

 

[Uma]

I definitely agree with all of that

Edit: Anybody know a good page in this thread for sheik matchup info?

 

[Duhssert]

Dr Peepee , can you please explain how to face peach, i feel like her having and not having a turnip is 2 complete different characters, with out one, i dont know what moves to approach with, im not to bad at the MU, but can always improve, so at lower percent 1-30, i assume spaced fairs and dtilt, maybe a nair or uair, and lastly maybe a dash attack when shes in lag.
40-80s, i like uptilt and juggles are great, but usually here they will either float aerial spam, so i dont know what to do, pivot fsmash outta grab doesn't work super well
kill percents (100 if im lucky), i mostly play it the same, yet i resort back to some more dtilts, but i find its hard for them to out space my bair, its great i neutral after a pivot i feel, and how i keep them off of stage bc of the strong tipper, as well as using the 1000 needles and some ftilts

Basically i have problem in choosing my best options, on the ground is everything above, assuming that is all FD, and with platforms involved, i try super hard to space utilt and fsmash, i feel like waveland grab can be dsmash punished easily, i go for maybe a double dip dair if possible and thats mostly my gameplay for with out a turnip.

Now with Peach having a turnip, whenever she throws, i either jab it away or mostly grab them, should i go for the grab, bc she maybe could get a dash attack in that short lag, shield it, run, or jump over, i feel like they would expect to get a move that knocks me up, so hold away i guess if they get the hit, basically, a turnips flying at me and shes like perfectly spaced and running to follow up while im in hit-stun. sorry for the stream of consciousness. Now if they do the crazy mind games with the Armada pressure just holding it and floating at me (like at Marths head level) or spacing, on FD, should i be scared of it and wait till the float runs out, or what, my instict is to bait a nair or fair, dd back then back in grab or fair into more things, i feel thats correct but maybe im missing something, also would counter ever be viable, bc you know they will mindlessly approach with float cancel nair sometimes, depending on the player, since fair isnt a fast animation/attack and it is react-able when im holding the ground, what seems like a good option, maybe something outta shield real fast, dd fair or what, so many options, but what is the best.

Thats all my questions are for now, i feel like its alot to ponder for me, hopefully its not for you, but you know much better than me, thanks alot Kev'! and good luck with the House Call series, ill always stay tuned

 

[Kopaka]

I'm not trying to take away from PPUs win at all, but honestly... no MUs vs Puff have been explored at all. HBox can kinda just do his own thing and beat people. Nobody has some super amazing strategy that forces him to "play the MU." We've seen Armada's Fox start to do it, but that's pretty much all. And it's definitely underexplored for Marth.

On the puff matchup, different puffs will have different habits. One puff could go for just hard rest punishes and the other could be walling you out more with bairs. Keeping your approaches really ambiguous in neutral helps. Sometimes it may look like your nair or fair could hit, but the timing has to be on point to not get baired. That's just my two cents. It's an interesting matchup IMO that can test your patience and movement

 

[Sutekh]

I definitely agree with all of that

Edit: Anybody know a good page in this thread for sheik matchup info?

http://www.meleeitonme.com/guest-article-marth-vs-sheik-guide/ This is a fantastic guide from Marth's perspective.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee , can you please explain how to face peach, i feel like her having and not having a turnip is 2 complete different characters, with out one, i dont know what moves to approach with, im not to bad at the MU, but can always improve, so at lower percent 1-30, i assume spaced fairs and dtilt, maybe a nair or uair, and lastly maybe a dash attack when shes in lag.
40-80s, i like uptilt and juggles are great, but usually here they will either float aerial spam, so i dont know what to do, pivot fsmash outta grab doesn't work super well
kill percents (100 if im lucky), i mostly play it the same, yet i resort back to some more dtilts, but i find its hard for them to out space my bair, its great i neutral after a pivot i feel, and how i keep them off of stage bc of the strong tipper, as well as using the 1000 needles and some ftilts

Basically i have problem in choosing my best options, on the ground is everything above, assuming that is all FD, and with platforms involved, i try super hard to space utilt and fsmash, i feel like waveland grab can be dsmash punished easily, i go for maybe a double dip dair if possible and thats mostly my gameplay for with out a turnip.

Now with Peach having a turnip, whenever she throws, i either jab it away or mostly grab them, should i go for the grab, bc she maybe could get a dash attack in that short lag, shield it, run, or jump over, i feel like they would expect to get a move that knocks me up, so hold away i guess if they get the hit, basically, a turnips flying at me and shes like perfectly spaced and running to follow up while im in hit-stun. sorry for the stream of consciousness. Now if they do the crazy mind games with the Armada pressure just holding it and floating at me (like at Marths head level) or spacing, on FD, should i be scared of it and wait till the float runs out, or what, my instict is to bait a nair or fair, dd back then back in grab or fair into more things, i feel thats correct but maybe im missing something, also would counter ever be viable, bc you know they will mindlessly approach with float cancel nair sometimes, depending on the player, since fair isnt a fast animation/attack and it is react-able when im holding the ground, what seems like a good option, maybe something outta shield real fast, dd fair or what, so many options, but what is the best.

Thats all my questions are for now, i feel like its alot to ponder for me, hopefully its not for you, but you know much better than me, thanks alot Kev'! and good luck with the House Call series, ill always stay tuned

pivot fsmash should only not work if they DI down and away. unless you're sure that's what they're doing then you need to practice.

you can set up (pivot) tippers at higher percents with dtilt and weak fair. higher than that is when first hit side b to utilt can be viable.

you'll also need to edgeguard if you can't get those things or just generally. look for when you whiff vs her and see if you can find corrections on your own or in pro matches.

you can jab turnip, fair it(and sometimes hit peach), nair it(first hit hits turnip, second hits peach coming in), or get on a platform to avoid throws and change position quickly and also fair if she starts to get close. you could also rush her down, especially on FD. she can't dash attack/dsmash when holding a turnip so you're more free to go in as long as you watch for aerials and rolls.

 

[Kopaka]

Dr Peepee You've written on the psychological advantages and disadvantages of Falco before, what do you think are some of those for Marth from your experience?

People always talk about matchups as a static ratio like 60:40 etc but I really like looking at things from a human level. It's a great feeling when you're playing someone and a combo you get on them during a tourney set ends up really hurting their morale or focus with the next stock. Or maybe it doesn't. Either way it really brings out the physical/human feeling of Melee that this game has

 

[Uma]

Dr Peepee You've written on the psychological advantages and disadvantages of Falco before, what do you think are some of those for Marth from your experience?

People always talk about matchups as a static ratio like 60:40 etc but I really like looking at things from a human level. It's a great feeling when you're playing someone and a combo you get on them during a tourney set ends up really hurting their morale or focus with the next stock. Or maybe it doesn't. Either way it really brings out the physical/human feeling of Melee that this game has

I really want to know what he has to say about that too, playing Marth invokes so many feels

 

[FE_Hector]

Dr Peepee You've written on the psychological advantages and disadvantages of Falco before, what do you think are some of those for Marth from your experience?

People always talk about matchups as a static ratio like 60:40 etc but I really like looking at things from a human level. It's a great feeling when you're playing someone and a combo you get on them during a tourney set ends up really hurting their morale or focus with the next stock. Or maybe it doesn't. Either way it really brings out the physical/human feeling of Melee that this game has

I know it's slightly off topic, but could you perhaps link me to a post on this topic for Falco? I do main him now, but love reading this thread because it's so interesting.