Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Dr Peepee]

So, a specific situation that I wanted to look more into was a dilemma that I'm sure a good portion of you have, and it's when marth is in the air and comes down with fair (lol) in order to protect himself. The issue with this is that though it provides a cover in front of you, it's laggy, and can be dashdance grabbed if your opponent reacts to it.

An example: https://youtu.be/K6E6Zp5sYvs?t=24s

I've been trying to think of ways around it (besides not being in the air like that without a jump) and I can't really think of any answer

Breaking it down on my own, I don't think that coming down with any different aerial, like nair, would give me any better of a result, because the others have about the same, if not more lag than fair.

I also don't think that coming down with nothing is a good idea either, UNLESS your opponent were expecting you to throw out a move like that, which, I wouldn't rely on because that's them reacting to a bad habit of mine, and I wouldn't want to keep that bad habit just to exploit them IN the case that they continue to cover it.

So where does that leave Marth? it seems that almost every time he's in the air without a jump, he's got little to no chance of coming down safely, at least, without a platform or double jump.

What do you think Dr Peepee ? I feel like I'm missing something, and it frustrates me that I can't think of an adequate answer despite my experience.

Watch me vs m2k at xanadu. I learned he was punishing me for that a lot and came up with some changes over the course of the sets. It's a bad Marth habit for sure.

In that particular instance you linked, I could've been fine since I faded away and put up shield instead of dashed. I thought Armada would attack.

Anyway, Marth has airdodge/WL, land into jab/dash/shield, and land with Fair or I guess AC Nair. That's a fine amount of decisions as long as we don't get too attached to any of them. It doesn't change that it's not a great position for Marth, but it's definitely playable.

 

[Kopaka]

Dr Peepee I don't even know how to word my questions about playing against Fox in neutral because to me there seems to be like a million things to watch out for when you play against this character. One thing I know I get hit by a lot is Nair. I shield a lot in neutral if the fox is a shine-heavy fox but Nairs hit me quite a lot. I think this might be because of my poor out of shield game at the moment but who knows lol.

Dashing around the Nair/running Nair range seems like an ok answer but fox moves so fast and if they're good, they'll act before I can even commit to whatever move I want to do after I dash away from the Nair. ahhhhh I'm so stumped

 

[TheRealSkid]

Kopaka The Moon has an interesting Marth guide and the beginning talks about shine and nair happy spacies. This helped me a lot, and I recommend you and any other marth to watch at least the beginning.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-dqZ93qG44

 

[Syaith]

Hey Dr Peepee , I was watching some sets of you playing marth vs falcon and was wondering if you could provide some input on the netural when both characters are on the ground. I came to some conclusions but feel I might not be getting the whole picture. (Before anything else, wishing you well and gl at the five gods tourney. I love your marth. :D)

After watching you vs s2j at apex 2015 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8yKWtB2nOg) and vs m2k (https://youtu.be/QS7xsuVbAwQ?t=4m46s), I realized the thing is that on stages like yoshi's battlefield and fod, both marth's and falcon's effective threat zones are so large that together they basically comprise the whole stage, so that most of the time the characters are not at true neutral but more of a tense, close combat neutral (either marth or falcon has a slight advantage).
I think larger stages add some 'depth' to the matchup by allowing for true neutral, in which to simplify, dd camping seems to be the optimal strategy as any non-negligible commitment by the opponent into the other's zone can be punished. (With that said, dd grab camping seems to happen on smaller stages only less and less effectively with less stage.) And of course, this is countered by simply running your opponent to the ledge and hitting them, but before that happens usually players will opt to keep their positional advantages and go in for some mix-up which leads to...

Close combat neutral where either player seeks to hit the other player for advantage: to simplify, on the one hand, marth can approach with dtilt, which is everything else being equal marth's safest ground approach and generally leads to advantageous situations for marth against any grounded falcon even if hit on shield. Assuming the players start to adapt, falcon can start reading the dtilt approaches and counter with sh or fj aerials. But once the falcon has been so conditioned, Marth can counter falcon's sh aerials (e.g. falcon's nairs) with his own nairs and can counter fj aerials by run up crouching into dd grab. But once the marth has been so conditioned, falcon can counter marth's aerials or run up crouch with side-b or dd grab. But when the marth realizes the falcon is staying on the ground and swaps back to dtilt approaches, we are back at the first step. So the mix-up in close combat neutral for marth seems to come down to this: if i believe the falcon will stay to the ground, I should dtilt, but if i believe the falcon will take to the air, i should sh nair or run up crouch accordingly.

As for dealing with falcon's aerial approaches, I think there is opportunity for marth to utilize side-b to stuff nair approaches but the reward with side-b seems to be very inconsistent while payoff with nair is so much higher (if you're going to commit yourself to about the same amount of lag why not go for the move with more frames and more payoff). Is this, for example, why I don't see you use it as a neutral mix-up much ever except at the end of a match vs m2k? e.g. https://youtu.be/QS7xsuVbAwQ?t=7m42s Marth also seems to have some exploitable cc grab options on falcon's aerials but these seem inconsistent/situational (e.g. what if falcon nairs or knees) as well, and I don't see you doing this too much.

What are your thoughts on the neutral mix-up? I feel I'm simplifying things and that the neutral is much more complex with each player using different approaching timings, visual cues, and microspacings trying to read into the other person's choices (e.g. if my opponent is trying to beat my dtilt approaches with ground counterattacks like grab straight up, i can give them another thing to worry about by running up wd back wd forward dtilt to cover their ground counter while run forward wd back dd grab or pivot fair/nair might be used for someone who is trying to beat your dtilt approaches with sh aerials. i been thinking hard about why dtilt is so good and i think it's because between simply running forward dtilt and run forward wd back wd forward dtilt there seems to be enough mix-up variance in just these two combined with the fact that dtilt is so low lag and hard to punish that the opponent if they try to solely punish dtilt approaches on the ground they just won't be able to, so that the opponent is almost forced into the air to try to read them and once the opponent is in the air marth can capitalize on how they react and their jump commitments).

tl;dr what to do in falcon neutral, thoughts on dtilt mix-up variance and what to do once you see how opponent responds/leaves ground

Anyone else have thoughts?
Also, to anyone, I can't seem to find the answer to this anywhere but in which order do these hit lower than each other dtilt, fsmash, (sh) shield breaker, fair e.g. edgeguarding a fox below the stage trying to sweetspot up-b?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Your last question Kadano has posts for in his thread. I think there's a Youtube video for it too.

Anyway, I have some rules for the Falcon matchup:

-jump if he jumps
--exception in the corner you can jump first

-attack rarely(extreme less is more)

-dtilt to encourage falcon to act sometimes

You're right about much of what you say. Falcon tends to jump when threatened and Marth tends to dash back when threatened. Using this, you can start playing on what people like to do and how to use your tools. This matchup is definitely the one I think I can swing least in, but getting any hit usually creates a pretty good position for yourself even if you can't directly convert.

 

[Kopaka]

(extreme less is more)

Made me laugh

@DrPeePee , what sort of gameplay of a Marth would really make you think "Wow, this guy totally understands the concept of less is more." ?

And do you maybe have examples that you've seen in the past of other players?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Pewpewu and Moon are getting closer to it. M2K kinda just does what he wants lol. No specific examples atm since I usually feel like you see it over the course of a set rather than a specific instance.

 

[AirFair]

Hey Dr Peepee , my question is about rising fair.

As I am starting to try and find the best uses for it in my gameplay, I have done quite a bit of studying and thinking to myself. I mainly see it used to cover above you on a platform, when you are intercepting an aerial approach, or when you are making a play out of the corner on an error by your opponent, at least, that's what I think it is used for, so any kind of affirmation would be nice.

The main thing I am trying to wrap my head around is it's use in neutral, specifically as a reaction. I understand that the main attacks that I rely on when playing neutral are dashes, dtilt, fair, and grab. But it's just that I don't really know when fair is most effective besides the above 3, since I do see it used in several other cases. From what I can tell, it seems like one would want to fair when they know it will hit, like when the opponent is using an aerial, or above, however, I see it used in place of a grab when the opponent is in a compromising situation.
Example: https://youtu.be/K6E6Zp5sYvs?t=13s

Is the fair above safe because it was a reaction, or was grab not guaranteed, since I would guess that you dashed back to observe Armada's reaction (which was a spotdodge.) When I take a look at the clip again, it looks like you would not have had enough time to grab.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey Dr Peepee , my question is about rising fair.

As I am starting to try and find the best uses for it in my gameplay, I have done quite a bit of studying and thinking to myself. I mainly see it used to cover above you on a platform, when you are intercepting an aerial approach, or when you are making a play out of the corner on an error by your opponent, at least, that's what I think it is used for, so any kind of affirmation would be nice.

The main thing I am trying to wrap my head around is it's use in neutral, specifically as a reaction. I understand that the main attacks that I rely on when playing neutral are dashes, dtilt, fair, and grab. But it's just that I don't really know when fair is most effective besides the above 3, since I do see it used in several other cases. From what I can tell, it seems like one would want to fair when they know it will hit, like when the opponent is using an aerial, or above, however, I see it used in place of a grab when the opponent is in a compromising situation.
Example: https://youtu.be/K6E6Zp5sYvs?t=13s

Is the fair above safe because it was a reaction, or was grab not guaranteed, since I would guess that you dashed back to observe Armada's reaction (which was a spotdodge.) When I take a look at the clip again, it looks like you would not have had enough time to grab.

Dtilt forces people to jump, and that's when you Fair. You could also do it if you thought people would shield(which is why Fair is better in the corner since they can't run back and will either jump or shield vs it usually). Rising Fair is good because you can still get the move out quickly and cover a lot of space quickly and meet them air to air. It's weak if you whiff when somewhat close because of the lag. You can also just whiff on purpose some for zoning, but I don't currently do that(it's an old school tactic I feel is worth reviving though).

Anyway, in the situation you linked I did late Fair on shield(only safe if you dash back) and then reacted with the pivot rising Fair to Armada's response. Fair is good if you can be pretty sure you'll hit since you get more reward(% alone is way better than Dtilt) usually.

 

[Leeroythuggin]

Oh great PPMD, in what situation might you wavedash towards your opponent with your back to them? Is that maneuver only useful as a bait?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Generally you don't want your back to your opponent, so I wouldn't recommend it outside of a "bait," but I think it's better advice to not recommend it at all.

 

[FE_Hector]

Wait a sec... Dr Peepee I think that Leeroythuggin has his main listed as Falco. He probably meant as the beak, not the tiara guy, even if this is a Marth thread.

 

[Leeroythuggin]

Nah I meant Marth, thanks! I was askjng because it seemed as if Marth was a bit harder to grab if he came in like that.

 

[FE_Hector]

Nah I meant Marth, thanks! I was askjng because it seemed as if Marth was a bit harder to grab if he came in like that.

The only advantage I could think of for doing that outside of mental tricks is just that a SH dair would leave a lasting hitbox behind him. Not recommended though.

 

[A_Reverie]

Oh great PPMD, in what situation might you wavedash towards your opponent with your back to them? Is that maneuver only useful as a bait?

I personally like WD back but only if you have the space to do it. You definitely don't want to do it in close quarters. With Marth, I especially like WD back -> turnaround D-tilt. The slide as you turn around and poke covers a good amount of space but it's not something you can do often. You can also dash for 1 frame to face forward and do a rising F-air but make sure you don't drift toward the opponent when you do it. You want to jump either backward or straight up with it. If you don't feel like commiting to anything out of a WD back you can do a forward dash to cancel the sliding momentum and resume dash dance.

 

[Morpheus]

Dr Peepee ,
I was wondering what you thought of this. I was using it on a level 3 fox so there was some DI (although they tend to go no DI or back DI when up thrown). At around 54% or so you can up-throw at the ledge to a quick DJ d-air. So instantly DJing and then d-airing (while drifting to get them with the tipper in the back to send at that downwards angle.) At the ledge would it be better to down-throw--> turnaround d-tilt, or is my thing a good potential mixup?

 

[xXadevs2000Xx]

Dr Peepee ,
I was wondering what you thought of this. I was using it on a level 3 fox so there was some DI (although they tend to go no DI or back DI when up thrown). At around 54% or so you can up-throw at the ledge to a quick DJ d-air. So instantly DJing and then d-airing (while drifting to get them with the tipper in the back to send at that downwards angle.) At the ledge would it be better to down-throw--> turnaround d-tilt, or is my thing a good potential mixup?

...uhh.... everyone knows about this.

Something you should keep in mind, the opponent will want to DI in on the dair (and SDI if they're good) to try and survive. This allows for a DI trap where you up-b instead of dair and the DI they use in expectation of a dair results in an early kill from up-b

By the way, smash turn dair is better than facing your back to them, unless it's from an utilt which they DI incorrectly.

(PS: Get 20xx training pack for DI)

 

[FE_Hector]

...uhh.... everyone knows about this.

Something you should keep in mind, the opponent will want to DI in on the dair (and SDI if they're good) to try and survive. This allows for a DI trap where you up-b instead of dair and the DI they use in expectation of a dair results in an early kill from up-b

By the way, smash turn dair is better than facing your back to them, unless it's from an utilt which they DI incorrectly.

(PS: Get 20xx training pack for DI)

How does the Dolphin Slash become a DI trap? You're gonna want to DI in against either of the kill options, right? I see where Dolphin Slash is more useful because it forces them offstage in this situation, but I wouldn't consider it an early kill unless your edgeguards are on point (no pun intended).

 

[ridemyboat]

How does the Dolphin Slash become a DI trap? You're gonna want to DI in against either of the kill options, right? I see where Dolphin Slash is more useful because it forces them offstage in this situation, but I wouldn't consider it an early kill unless your edgeguards are on point (no pun intended).

They DI in instead of DI up and in.

 

[FE_Hector]

Dolphin Slash hits them up a bit anyways, so I don't see it killing at that percent, really. IDK though, it's been a while since I tested any Marth stuff.

 

[Kopaka]

Extreme less is more vs Falcon is definitely one really great way to play the matchup. The moment I stopped playing less is more vs the last Falcon I played in tournament, he started making a 4 stock comeback! I'm impressed at the power of this philosophy of the matchup so far.

Dr Peepee , was coming up with this concept the result of tons of observations about Falcon vs Marth? I mean...duh that would make sense lol... but you're the only one I know of who's said anything about this approach to playing vs Falcon. A lot of other players would just go "its (Some random ratio)" or "Falcon is too fast for marth to dash around" etc and other broad generalizations.

I'm actually really excited to learn about more stuff like this. "Extreme less is more" is only 4 words but they have such a powerful impact if you put them to use o.o I've gotten more out of that than I would have reading some like 16 page super in depth marth vs falcon guide.

 

[Gravegawd]

Hey Dr Peepee I've been having some troubles versus very fast moving Falcos!

What are my options during the dash dance? I seem to always let the Falco go laser mode when they're able to notice my dash back movement in micro spacing environments: https://youtu.be/oGW4aEJ0rrw?t=88

What will happen is that I give the Falco the breathing room to continue to add the pressure, and in this circumstance it pushes me further away and into the corner!

Also, what are Marth's defensive options after a whiffed aerial or laser approach by a spacie in the corner (specifically against Falco)? What is most effective at beating his options at attempting to interrupt my grab (my strategy mostly revolves around chain grabbing)? It looks like the Falco goes for jabs, grab, shine grab or WD back in these situations?

 

[Klemes]

Extreme less is more vs Falcon is definitely one really great way to play the matchup. The moment I stopped playing less is more vs the last Falcon I played in tournament, he started making a 4 stock comeback! I'm impressed at the power of this philosophy of the matchup so far.

Dr Peepee , was coming up with this concept the result of tons of observations about Falcon vs Marth? I mean...duh that would make sense lol... but you're the only one I know of who's said anything about this approach to playing vs Falcon. A lot of other players would just go "its (Some random ratio)" or "Falcon is too fast for marth to dash around" etc and other broad generalizations.

I'm actually really excited to learn about more stuff like this. "Extreme less is more" is only 4 words but they have such a powerful impact if you put them to use o.o I've gotten more out of that than I would have reading some like 16 page super in depth marth vs falcon guide.

Hi. I thought you might be interested to see this.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_X4Cvclr6g
Druggedfox shares his view on the falcon marth MU by analizing a great PPMD set.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Extreme less is more vs Falcon is definitely one really great way to play the matchup. The moment I stopped playing less is more vs the last Falcon I played in tournament, he started making a 4 stock comeback! I'm impressed at the power of this philosophy of the matchup so far.

Dr Peepee , was coming up with this concept the result of tons of observations about Falcon vs Marth? I mean...duh that would make sense lol... but you're the only one I know of who's said anything about this approach to playing vs Falcon. A lot of other players would just go "its (Some random ratio)" or "Falcon is too fast for marth to dash around" etc and other broad generalizations.

I'm actually really excited to learn about more stuff like this. "Extreme less is more" is only 4 words but they have such a powerful impact if you put them to use o.o I've gotten more out of that than I would have reading some like 16 page super in depth marth vs falcon guide.

I learned through playing and watching the matchup a lot. The key is to condense intense studying into a short amount of words. That's when you really understand in my view. I'll be bringing more of those types of phrases out later.

 

[AirFair]

The key is to condense intense studying into a short amount of words. That's when you really understand in my view

I feel like mental notes during a match are often the same way. This is a really cool way to look at studying though, since I write so much.

Also get well soon!

 

[Kopaka]

I learned through playing and watching the matchup a lot. The key is to condense intense studying into a short amount of words. That's when you really understand in my view. I'll be bringing more of those types of phrases out later.

(Welcome back )

That seems plausible. Your "jump when they jump" phrase has also been very powerful. Kind of feel like a noob for not figuring that out myself >< But I'm still a noob because there's still sooo much to learn about this crazy game

 

[AirFair]

Hey Dr Peepee , a situation that came up while doing an analysis of one of your Marth vs Fox sets is when you are in the corner yourself. I've asked you about reactive play at the corner, but I guess now I'm looking at it from the other side of the coin.

From what I have observed, I would not want to rely on any aerial while in the corner, and I see that you yourself tend to use shield when faced with very close range attacks (dtilt/nair/dash attack) for a possible grab, since in the corner, an opponent would be able to jump first with less risk.

The situation I want to understand is getting out of the corner vs a Fox that isn't giving you the opportunity to shieldgrab. The two things that I see most often from your marth are rolling out towards center, or just using dash, whether it be around them or under a nair, this assuming that the fox does not give you space to dash towards center and begin a dash dance.

several examples I have noticed
Vs Lucky G3
https://youtu.be/3TIPxDu-vf4?t=9m32s
https://youtu.be/3TIPxDu-vf4?t=15m26s

Vs SFAT G3
https://youtu.be/RK_XO_DJeSY?t=1m37s
https://youtu.be/RK_XO_DJeSY?t=2m19s

What I have come to believe is that the roll is a reaction to a commitment at the edge, however the dashing still intrigues me. I don't think it's a raw reaction, so is electing to dash around or under simply made by looking at the range of Fox in comparison to you?

There are cases which you dashdance using very short dashes in the corner, along with dash wd back, and you get successful baits
https://youtu.be/RK_XO_DJeSY?t=2m27s Kreygasm

So what makes you pick these kinds of decisions, and what makes them most effective to you?

I really appreciate it.

 

[Kopaka]

I learned through playing and watching the matchup a lot. The key is to condense intense studying into a short amount of words. That's when you really understand in my view. I'll be bringing more of those types of phrases out later.

My improvement in certain matchups has gone like this: Play a ton of a certain matchup, go home and watch the matchup with sometimes a few good lessons noted in the back of my head that my practice partner/teacher told me, play a ton of the same matchup with a slightly better understanding of those lessons that came from grinding out playing/watching. Rinse and repeat for many many many parts of gameplay...

I'll also say that realizations of just how incompetent I was/still am in so many aspects of smash were brought out this way. This part is actually a lot more important to me than what I wrote in the first paragraph. I had to play so many games to come to realizations about how little I knew about things. That, honestly...is huge. So huge that I've never looked at Melee the same way since I realized those things.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey Dr Peepee , a situation that came up while doing an analysis of one of your Marth vs Fox sets is when you are in the corner yourself. I've asked you about reactive play at the corner, but I guess now I'm looking at it from the other side of the coin.

From what I have observed, I would not want to rely on any aerial while in the corner, and I see that you yourself tend to use shield when faced with very close range attacks (dtilt/nair/dash attack) for a possible grab, since in the corner, an opponent would be able to jump first with less risk.

The situation I want to understand is getting out of the corner vs a Fox that isn't giving you the opportunity to shieldgrab. The two things that I see most often from your marth are rolling out towards center, or just using dash, whether it be around them or under a nair, this assuming that the fox does not give you space to dash towards center and begin a dash dance.

several examples I have noticed
Vs Lucky G3
https://youtu.be/3TIPxDu-vf4?t=9m32s
https://youtu.be/3TIPxDu-vf4?t=15m26s

Vs SFAT G3
https://youtu.be/RK_XO_DJeSY?t=1m37s
https://youtu.be/RK_XO_DJeSY?t=2m19s

What I have come to believe is that the roll is a reaction to a commitment at the edge, however the dashing still intrigues me. I don't think it's a raw reaction, so is electing to dash around or under simply made by looking at the range of Fox in comparison to you?

There are cases which you dashdance using very short dashes in the corner, along with dash wd back, and you get successful baits
https://youtu.be/RK_XO_DJeSY?t=2m27s Kreygasm

So what makes you pick these kinds of decisions, and what makes them most effective to you?

I really appreciate it.

Yeah you roll when they commit hard but sometimes you still get hit. Can be worth it overall depending on your percent and their reactions.

Dashing is kind of a "well they'd never expect this" choice and it's not easily punished since it's hard to distinguish from a DD while cornered. This option then strengthens your DD while cornered since they don't know what a dash forward leads to.

 

[Kopaka]

Dr Peepee Against a Sheik who really "Plays the matchup" or just plays very very defensive overall, I'm having a tough time coming up with a solid strategy. I don't want to play too defensive myself and give too much space but I also don't want to over commit too hard. I'm a lot more used to playing aggro sheiks.

Also having the same problems with defensive Foxes who go from lasering to aggression at the snap of a finger. I'm thinking I need to just wait as long as I have to for a grab opening and try my best to defend against any aggressive option they throw at me (Nair, dash attack, running shine).

This is definitely a playstyle that beats me currently and I want to overcome this hurdle.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee Against a Sheik who really "Plays the matchup" or just plays very very defensive overall, I'm having a tough time coming up with a solid strategy. I don't want to play too defensive myself and give too much space but I also don't want to over commit too hard. I'm a lot more used to playing aggro sheiks.

Also having the same problems with defensive Foxes who go from lasering to aggression at the snap of a finger. I'm thinking I need to just wait as long as I have to for a grab opening and try my best to defend against any aggressive option they throw at me (Nair, dash attack, running shine).

This is definitely a playstyle that beats me currently and I want to overcome this hurdle.

Do the players just wait a long time before going in? Do they go in right after you can't wait anymore and approach?

It sounds like you struggle to convince defensive players to come to you/you struggle with approaching yourself, depending on your goals. What do you want to do?

First of all, you should remember to threaten them with potential approaches sometimes, whether you actually commit or not. Since Marth can threaten such a wide space with Dtilt, this makes dashes forward and WDs forward/being even kind of close to the opponent intimidating.

Second, you need to know what their strategy is. Chances are it isn't "wait forever," and you need to feel their intentions out more by changing your spacing to them and observing their reactions. This helps you build matchup and player info.

Third, be sure to watch your own matches. You can probably find patterns when you get hit looking into what happened just before the hit. You can also watch players way better or somewhat better than you to see how they solve the problem.

 

[Kopaka]

Whiffing moves is what I think a few/if not all opponents of this style want out of me. Whiffing grabs if they double jump in front of me and I get impatient. At least that's my perspective of it right now. I do need to have a deeper understanding of observing reactions more. A lot of the times it's me reacting in a very unoptimal/dumb way, very hesitantly/impatient which gets me punished.

Reflecting on what you've said/my current observations...I feel like its a lot of really playing with how they may react to what you do to approach or threaten to approach/non committal until you see an opportunity where you go "There! That's where I can punish them, that hole right there!" With a move that would be at least the most safe wherever you are in the stage and also depending on what percent they're at. But more importantly just observing in that way. You may look like you're just throwing out moves sometimes but it's really to get information on them. I think.

 

[Brave Little DeCoste'R]

During the Mango vs Hax set at Pound 6 (Marth vs Fox), Mango was able to jump out of a lot of Hax's combos. Likewise at a tournament the other day I played Eggz (He played Fox and Marth) and he was jumping out of my uthrow combos as Marth faster than anyone I played before. I guess my question is how do you learn to be able to jump out of combos really early? Or is it possible that Hax and I were messing up lol

 

[Life]

I've been told that the only character that consistently jumps out of frame-perfect uthrow uair at kill percents is Bowser. However, most people aren't quite frame perfect, which opens up a lot, and I'm not sure how DI factors in in that situation, or if you can jump out if Fox intentionally whiffs the first hit of uair to prevent SDI, etc.

 

[xXadevs2000Xx]

When they uthrow you, DI behind them. They CAN follow up if frame perfect, but you should try to SDI and DI the other direction to avoid followups after that.
Or go to platforms if possible.

But then they can start using bair and then it becomes something else entirely.

 

[Choice Mheat]

Hey Dr Peepee I noticed a habit/mixup/I’m not sure in your Apex 2014 games against m2k shiek.

https://youtu.be/OAyMqJPY8jI?t=5m23s

There were a couple times when you would get an opening and just poke with dtilt or fair and then run away. Sometimes you immediately returned and got a much heavier punish, other times m2k chased you and punished you for it (how you lost your first stock). And other times you just returned to neutral. My thought process (I’m relatively new though) is that I should capitalize on almost every opening, trying to get as much damage as possible before they get out. Is it the Shiek MU where you’re scared of the low % cc? Are you looking for a better opening, and just poking? Or are you intentionally doing it to condition the opponent.


Also, I have some improvement/conceptual questions that don’t really relate to marth. Can I PM you?

 

[A_Reverie]

Hey Dr Peepee There were a couple times when you would get an opening and just poke with dtilt or fair and then run away. Sometimes you immediately returned and got a much heavier punish, other times m2k chased you and punished you for it.

I've been analyzing my habits and I noticed I've been doing the same thing.

Dr Peepee , what are some of your preferred methods of covering Marth's back?

 

[Life]

Weird, I have the opposite problem where I always rush in for grab after landing dtilt.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey Dr Peepee I noticed a habit/mixup/I’m not sure in your Apex 2014 games against m2k shiek.

https://youtu.be/OAyMqJPY8jI?t=5m23s

There were a couple times when you would get an opening and just poke with dtilt or fair and then run away. Sometimes you immediately returned and got a much heavier punish, other times m2k chased you and punished you for it (how you lost your first stock). And other times you just returned to neutral. My thought process (I’m relatively new though) is that I should capitalize on almost every opening, trying to get as much damage as possible before they get out. Is it the Shiek MU where you’re scared of the low % cc? Are you looking for a better opening, and just poking? Or are you intentionally doing it to condition the opponent.


Also, I have some improvement/conceptual questions that don’t really relate to marth. Can I PM you?

Well those moves come out quickly and can be safer than grab as they also have more range. You also need to be able to poke with Dtilt to establish threats. Dtilt is not a combo tool, so you shouldn't run in after hitting with it. I often back up to observe, but I could probably also slight walk forward to get the IASA frames and then stay still to observe the opponent's response. In the example you linked, I correctly moved backward as m2k spammed attacks once I got near him. I just misplayed/m2k played correctly after that point, but that doesn't change the Dtilt dash back being correct. M2K having lower percent meant I wouldn't launch him or knock him down or even have him go far at all. It's much wiser to retreat until I know how someone would respond to being poked, and in this case was safer anyway since m2k was swinging. So basically, percent matters too.

I've been analyzing my habits and I noticed I've been doing the same thing.

Dr Peepee , what are some of your preferred methods of covering Marth's back?

Retreating pivot WD back/SH Fair are both great tools I use.

 

[Kopaka]

'Dtilt is not a combo move..." For some reason I'm only just understanding the meaning of this, but it's so true.

Never thought about the walking IASA either. Also "t's much wiser to retreat until I know how someone would respond to being poked" is super true. Are you like a top 5 player or something PP? Because dang that's some really good advice. holy moley