Captain Falcon

[Diddy Kong]

There's the emblem on the helmet and the boots. Oh and those spikes on the shoulderpad. Other than that, no difference indeed. Still, nobody should be able to do Falcon Punch, except Falcon. Ganon can try all he likes, he'll never be as good as the original.

 

[The Black mage]

I really think captain falcon is just good right now.
No tweaks, he really is just the same awsome guy he is.

 

[Thirtyfour]

I hope they get more than 6 colors in this game for Falcon.

 

[GetBentSaggy]

I really think captain falcon is just good right now.
No tweaks, he really is just the same awsome guy he is.

Are you joking?

He's still good if people know how to use him, but they took down so many technical stats of his. His speed got nerfed so Sonic would look even faster than the benchmark, his killing power got nerfed (maybe to make Ganon look better, not sure) and all sorts of things.

 

[asia_catdog_blue]

Also, he could have a better voice... and more animations.

 

[The Black mage]

I really don't notice anything different when playing as brawl falcon and melee falcon, except the fact that raptor boost will seriously screw you over if you go off a ledge with it.

So I might want to see it NOT make you helpless in midair.

 

[Ove]

Do you seriously not noting any differences between Melee and Brawl Falcon? C'mon, Falcon in Brawl is much slower and the knee is godly in Melee and bad in Brawl.

 

[Diddy Kong]

His grab game also got destroyed. And Smashes are generally weaker and useless. Wish his Falcon Kick was as strong as in 64 again as well.

 

[Ove]

The only good thing with Brawl Falcon is his jab, imo. Great for pressure and mix-ups. Still, the Melee A combo hade more class.

The power of the N64 Falcon Kick should definitely make a return. It was an excellent combo finisher. It's barely useful in Melee and Brawl.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Was kinda dissapointed by the power nerf of Falcon Kick innitially in Melee. Then later, I discovered Falcon was like zomgawesome, but couldn't quite get his style down.

U Air was also still quite sexy in Brawl, but that's really about it. Kinda like Mario if you want to compare.

 

[SmashChu]

Falcon's problem is more the engine, not the character. I don't think anything was really changed for him.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Melee's Knee of Ultimate JUSTICE ( : YES!!!) would've been extremely nice on Brawl's Falcon though.

 

[SmashChu]

It's still there. The move is just hard to do on foes on the ground. Do it in mid air for best results. It's quite a nice move since everyone generally lives longer in Brawl than Melee.

 

[Diddy Kong]

No there's a clear power nerf, and it's hitbox got much smaller, so it's harder to land.

 

[SmashChu]

No there's a clear power nerf, and it's hitbox got much smaller, so it's harder to land.

I'd argue it's stronger in this game. Go in training mode and you'll see what I mean. It is harder to land with, but it's more understanding how it works more than anything (which is different than Melee's).

 

[GetBentSaggy]

I'd argue it's stronger in this game. Go in training mode and you'll see what I mean. It is harder to land with, but it's more understanding how it works more than anything (which is different than Melee's).

Higher damage doesn't matter since Falcon has low priority, killing power and knockback.

 

[SmashChu]

Higher damage doesn't matter since Falcon has low priority, killing power and knockback.

It does more damage AND knockback. The Knee is VERY powerful. The reason it's "harder to hit," i that you have to time it just right which can be tough when doing it as an air-to-ground move. it works best in air-to-air.

His killing power is quite good actually as he has quite a few powerful moves. His up air is strong and reliable as is his back air. The back air is great as a short hop. His spike is powerful and works well even if it doesn't spike. His forward air does a ton of knock back. His forward smash can kill at decent damages and his down smash is amazing. His up strong isn't too shabby for it's speed. His Falcon Punch is also quite powerful as well. He can also spike with the Raptor Dive.

 

[GetBentSaggy]

It does more damage AND knockback. The Knee is VERY powerful. The reason it's "harder to hit," i that you have to time it just right which can be tough when doing it as an air-to-ground move. it works best in air-to-air.

His killing power is quite good actually as he has quite a few powerful moves. His up air is strong and reliable as is his back air. The back air is great as a short hop. His spike is powerful and works well even if it doesn't spike. His forward air does a ton of knock back. His forward smash can kill at decent damages and his down smash is amazing. His up strong isn't too shabby for it's speed. His Falcon Punch is also quite powerful as well. He can also spike with the Raptor Dive.

His knee has been nerfed in almost every way! You need to hit the sweet spot to make any difference, unlike in Melee where you just needed to regularly hit the knee. In Melee, simply hitting the knee (sweet spot or not) is very deadly. In Brawl, they get knocked back about 1-2 metres.

 

[SmashShadow]

Just going off Smash Bros Wikia here

Changes from Melee to Brawl
Captain Falcon has been severely nerfed from SSBM to SSBB (one of the biggest nerfs from Melee to Brawl, despite having some good buffs). His attacks are slower and have been given less favorable hitboxes, which makes safe approaches and landing blows difficult. Additionally, his traction is significantly lower, now one of the lowest. Captain Falcon's down aerial now has a sweetspot, smaller hitbox, is weaker, and can no longer Nipple Spike, meaning that he has a harder time meteor smashing in general. The Knee Smash (forward aerial) is much harder to sweet spot and is slightly weaker in terms of knockback (though it is stronger in terms of damage output, if only by 1%). In recovery, his falling speed is lower (but it is still very fast in comparison to other characters in Brawl). The Falcon Dive can now grab edge-hoggers and has a larger grab-zone, making Captain Falcon harder to edgehog. It also travels slightly more distance vertically, but much less horizontal distance; and can break targets in "Target Smash!!" mode. On the downside, Falcon Kick no longer enables him to regain his second jump, and Falcon Dive travels much less horizontal distance. The Falcon Punch can now be reversed for a short time during the startup. The Falcon Punch has less startup time, but lower knockback. Captain Falcon is now able to swing the Home Run Bat like other characters can. Because of this, he can now properly use a Home Run Bat for a Homerun Contest. Captain Falcon's forward smash has been weakened significantly (now has only slightly below-average knockback, compared from being the 3rd most powerful f-smash in Melee). His down smash is weaker in terms of knockback, adding up to his nerfs. Raptor Boost is easier to use and makes a "leapfrog" effect when the attack connects in the air, making it much safer to use in the air. Overall, Falcon is a slower and much weaker character in Brawl. He is no longer the 3rd strongest character, now he`s most likely the 19th most strongest character in Brawl.

You can't blame it all on the engine Smashchu.

 

[Diddy Kong]

SmashChu thinks we all suck at Brawl or something.

 

[Zeallyx]

Jab, Bair, Uair, Utilt and Nair all have their uses in Brawl, but got nothing on Melee Falcon.

I hope they bring back Melee Falcon, usability wise.

 

[SmashChu]

Just going off Smash Bros Wikia here

You can't blame it all on the engine Smashchu.

I'm going to trust my own judgement than the wiki. That's because I decided to actually test it out.

The following is what damage C Falcon gets a clean kill (as it, they clearly died rather than linger before hitting the blast zone). This was done on Lucario (100 weight) in the center of Smashville

FSmash: 107
D Smash: 100 (front)
U Smash: 100
Knee: 75
D Air: 105 *
Up Strong: 120**
Falcon Punch: 45

*This is a move meant to edge guard. The fact that it can cleanly kill someone at center stage at 105 is ridiculous. It pretty much means a guaranteed KO if you didn't sweetspot off stage.
**This is a strong move for pete sake.

Consider this is the 2nd fastest character in the game and has a weight of 104. Generally, a lot more characters can kill at lower percents; however, very few have this variety of KO moves, which makes a world of difference. This means you don't have to hope to hit with a single attack or two to kill someone; most of the characters moves will do it. I didn't mention back air and up air because they don't kill mid stage, but they work wonders off stage.

The reason I say the engine hurts him is how momentum works. In Melee, you carried your forward momentum as you jumped. In Brawl, you don't. Thus, Captain Falcon can't jump as far as his air movement is always the same. I'm sure wavedashing and L-Canceling helped him too.

In a free for all or normal team fight (FF on) he'll do fine.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Except most other characters can land hits faster, and besides the power nerf, he also has worse grab range, his Side B sucks, and the Knee... Really is hard to hit if you rely on it. Most characters have easy ways to prevent it from happening.

Up Tilt is sexy though yeah. But still, Captain Falcon became a lot worse from Melee to Brawl. And as you say yourself, your best bet on a kill is hit a Falcon Punch.

 

[SmashChu]

Except most other characters can land hits faster, and besides the power nerf, he also has worse grab range, his Side B sucks, and the Knee... Really is hard to hit if you rely on it. Most characters have easy ways to prevent it from happening.

Up Tilt is sexy though yeah. But still, Captain Falcon became a lot worse from Melee to Brawl. And as you say yourself, your best bet on a kill is hit a Falcon Punch.

-Captain Falcon's moves aren't any harder to land than most of the cast. It's like any attack. You have to learn the timing.
-I'll give you the grab range (though I thought it was Ice Climbers). It does hurt him as grabs are great for him
-The Knee is going to work as well as any other time sensitive move (like Falco's back kick). The reason people have trouble with it is that in Melee, hitting with it was hitting in a specific spot. In Brawl, you have to time it right. Once you can do that, it's an amazing attack.
-I never said his Falcon Punch is his best bet. If anything, his back air and up air are as he's really good at edge guarding.

I disagree with most of your points. Falcon's strength is that of a brawler. He is suppose to get close and really beat up on you, and he has a ton of moves to do that. The only trouble I've found can be getting in as his grab range is weak and his standard air isn't great as a short hop. In smaller stages with more players, he'll do fine and his strengths will really play to his advantages.

 

[GetBentSaggy]

We already know why Falcon is worse in Brawl than Melee, this discussion should be about how to fix it, not naming his flaws or moves. That was done in the first couple pages. This only happened because a casual (who probably didn't realise how hardcore the players here are) said there's no difference between SSBM/SSBB Falcon.

Improve Falcon (and also Ganondorf's) grab by having them completely reach out. It's not like either of them have a bone problem so they can't straighten their elbow...

 

[SmashChu]

We already know why Falcon is worse in Brawl than Melee, this discussion should be about how to fix it, not naming his flaws or moves. That was done in the first couple pages. This only happened because a casual (who probably didn't realise how hardcore the players here are) said there's no difference between SSBM/SSBB Falcon.

That's what I'm about to get to. Geez.

Playing Falcon, I realize he's great when there are platforms present. He has great air moves and does well attacking people higher then him. His weakness is his ground game. Here is what I would change.

Make his forward Smash stronger: Kind of strange that his down smash is stronger. For how this move works, it should be a bit stronger. This would actually help him a lot
Make his standard air better: Basically, one problem he has on the ground is he can't really do a short hop. His neutral air wont work nor will his forward air. Having this move being more reliable will help him.
Extend his grab range: Same as above. Grabs also help him a lot so he'd be better able to set up his next attack. For a brawler like him, it wouldn't hurt.

Generally, I disagree with people saying Falcon is bad. He's not the best, but he's OK (I'd consider him run of the mill, which is better than what others say). With these changes. he'd be amazing. Right now, he's good in a large brawl and stages with platforms. He suffers on Final Destination, Bridge of Eldin and Smashville to a small degree. He does well on Battlefield and Norfair.

 

[DakotaBonez]

I liked how ya had to hit with the tip of the knee in Brawl. Whenever ya see a little white spark on your characters body it signifies where you need the move to connect with the opponent. It was a nice touch. Yeah it was a nerf, but wasn't a nerf needed?

Anyway, I just wanted Captain Falcon's Falcon Punch to propel him some Horizontal distance when midair.

 

[SmashChu]

I liked how ya had to hit with the tip of the knee in Brawl.

It has nothing to do with where you hit but when. The character can be within you and it will still work assuming it hit at the right time.

 

[DakotaBonez]

Right thats when the spark appears

 

[SmashChu]

Right thats when the spark appears

Yep. If you get sparks, you did it right.

 

[GetBentSaggy]

Make Falcon's knee realistic to hit. Not in a 'realistic damage/effect' way but realistic in the way that 'you can very quickly move your knee and have full power behind it despite'. That simple.

 

[SmashChu]

Make Falcon's knee realistic to hit. Not in a 'realistic damage/effect' way but realistic in the way that 'you can very quickly move your knee and have full power behind it despite'. That simple.

Or you could just not suck and hit with it. Not like it's that hard.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The f-air in Brawl is just not very reliable, due to its very small sweetspot.

 

[GetBentSaggy]

Or you could just not suck and hit with it. Not like it's that hard.

I do hit with it, quite often. The point is Falcon's knee = nerfed and if you're like that dude from a few pages ago who said there were literally no changes made to Falcon nor his knee, you are straight up ********.

 

[SmashChu]

The f-air in Brawl is just not very reliable, due to its very small sweetspot.

The nit box size is NOT the issue, which is why people have trouble with it. In order to connect, you have to time it right. It's all about timing.

I do hit with it, quite often. The point is Falcon's knee = nerfed and if you're like that dude from a few pages ago who said there were literally no changes made to Falcon nor his knee, you are straight up ********.

I'm confused because that has nothing to do with what you originally said. I feel like you just crying nerf more than anything.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Nerfing Falcon's knee would be like... Nerfing Link's recovery though.

 

[GetBentSaggy]

Just going off Smash Bros Wikia here

Changes from Melee to Brawl
Captain Falcon has been severely nerfed from SSBM to SSBB (one of the biggest nerfs from Melee to Brawl, despite having some good buffs). His attacks are slower and have been given less favorable hitboxes, which makes safe approaches and landing blows difficult. Additionally, his traction is significantly lower, now one of the lowest. Captain Falcon's down aerial now has a sweetspot, smaller hitbox, is weaker, and can no longer Nipple Spike, meaning that he has a harder time meteor smashing in general. The Knee Smash (forward aerial) is much harder to sweet spot and is slightly weaker in terms of knockback (though it is stronger in terms of damage output, if only by 1%). In recovery, his falling speed is lower (but it is still very fast in comparison to other characters in Brawl). The Falcon Dive can now grab edge-hoggers and has a larger grab-zone, making Captain Falcon harder to edgehog. It also travels slightly more distance vertically, but much less horizontal distance; and can break targets in "Target Smash!!" mode. On the downside, Falcon Kick no longer enables him to regain his second jump, and Falcon Dive travels much less horizontal distance. The Falcon Punch can now be reversed for a short time during the startup. The Falcon Punch has less startup time, but lower knockback. Captain Falcon is now able to swing the Home Run Bat like other characters can. Because of this, he can now properly use a Home Run Bat for a Homerun Contest. Captain Falcon's forward smash has been weakened significantly (now has only slightly below-average knockback, compared from being the 3rd most powerful f-smash in Melee). His down smash is weaker in terms of knockback, adding up to his nerfs. Raptor Boost is easier to use and makes a "leapfrog" effect when the attack connects in the air, making it much safer to use in the air. Overall, Falcon is a slower and much weaker character in Brawl. He is no longer the 3rd strongest character, now he`s most likely the 19th most strongest character in Brawl.

You can't blame it all on the engine Smashchu.

My favourite part was when Smashchu basically ignored and disregarded this information. He's really far up his own ass.

 

[Gingerbread Man]

I just wanted to throw out this out there that this should have totally been his final smash

The absurdity of it being visible from beyond the galaxy is my favorite part.

 

[final lap]

I just wanted to throw out this out there that this should have totally been his final smash

Maybe you were joking or half-joking, but his current final smash is better simply because it involves the Blue Falcon.

 

[BTmoney]

If we want to make Falcon not terrible, because who would actually be upset if Falcon was a top tier character in smash 4, then don't make him like he was in Brawl. Or make everyone else worse. /thread

If you nerf his movement, the quality of his staple attacks (knee, nair etc.), his grabs, and make his bad moves even worse then he's just a terrible character. That's like them taking away Marth's tipper, reducing the range of his sword, lowering his priority, and giving him worse grabs. All you have then is a bad character.

Also, we can't even speculate on how to make a character better if there is no cast to compare him against. We don't even know what a good character in Smash 4 looks like. Smash 4 might be Mario Party.