Cancel Recovery & auto canceling ? ALSO DI! (confirmed) EDIT*

[Supermodel From Paris]

I think it would be great if people could stop jumping to conclusions about Smash 4's "viability" as a competitive game based on a few hours of footage and wait until we're able to play the game ourselves.

Go back and watch early Melee or Brawl footage and it becomes clear how little anyone knows about anything for the first months or years of a competitive game's life cycle. We don't know anything; your blood pressure will thank you if you just chill out and wait.

It looks like there is some way to reduce lag based on the gifs someone posted of Link's dair earlier in the thread, so something is happening. But the fact that we didn't notice this **** happening in E3 treehouse footage months ago really highlights how ridiculous all of this rampant prejudging is.

Do you guys seriously not remember ink dropping?

 

[ferioku]

I think it would be great if people could stop jumping to conclusions about Smash 4's "viability" as a competitive game based on a few hours of footage and wait until we're able to play the game ourselves.

Go back and watch early Melee or Brawl footage and it becomes clear how little anyone knows about anything for the first months or years of a competitive game's life cycle. We don't know anything; your blood pressure will thank you if you just chill out and wait.

It looks like there is some way to reduce lag based on the gifs someone posted of Link's dair earlier in the thread, so something is happening. But the fact that we didn't notice this **** happening in E3 treehouse footage months ago really highlights how ridiculous all of this rampant prejudging is.

Thank you!

 

[Ghoti]

@ Supermodel From Paris pretty much summed it up.

There is evidence that something is happening. We aren't sure what it is, but we'll figure it out when we start playing.

 

[Azizibesmashing]

I think people are actually just debating your credibility to know what you're talking about because you seem to lack an understanding of the difference between IASA frames and landing lag.

yes , i spent some time last night after all this brushing upon my terms.
but i did elaborate on what i saw so i was hoping someone could
clarify that immidiately

 

[Eisen]

I don't know how to feel about this mechanic. On one hand, it'll allow for more combos and versatility of speed... on the other, I was kind of hoping for Smash 4 to become something that wasn't like Melee/Project M, as a result of being surrounded by those two games for the past year and a half. I don't think it hurts anything, but it just feels a little bland when every character has no landing lag on anything. It's kinda why I'm switching mains in Project M right now: Lucas has VERY little landing lag in PM 3.02, and it makes him extremely boring with no overall clear style or function or purpose or design theme. The intent is there, but it's pointless to use it at all when all your moves combo into any other move.

Smash 4 offers a lot of promise for unique movesets... I hope it doesn't just become another "every move is a combo into something else" game where metagame and viability and tiers all come down to who has the best auto-cancelable no-lag aerials. The game seemed to be going in the right direction with speeding things up, but I am really (not) feeling this potential exploit. I won't condemn those who do, but that's my opinion on that matter as of right now, at least.

 

[Raijinken]

How is this different from brawl buffering?

Brawl's buffering was universal for all inputs, this is a timing window not too different from how one would tech a hit against the floor.

whats wrong with wavedashing? :/

It's a nice technique, I just think it's too hard to do. If there was an easier way to perform it (for instance, something like a dash command while crouched, like if you tried to run while crawling?) then I would like it a lot more. I'm quite an advocate for advanced techniques being easier to do so that skilled play becomes more accessible to players who have excellent knowledge and mastery of the basics, but simply can't manage precise inputs on a super tight timing window.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

I don't know how to feel about this mechanic. On one hand, it'll allow for more combos and versatility of speed... on the other, I was kind of hoping for Smash 4 to become something that wasn't like Melee/Project M, as a result of being surrounded by those two games for the past year and a half. I don't think it hurts anything, but it just feels a little bland when every character has no landing lag on anything. It's kinda why I'm switching mains in Project M right now: Lucas has VERY little landing lag in PM 3.02, and it makes him extremely boring with no overall clear style or function or purpose or design theme. The intent is there, but it's pointless to use it at all when all your moves combo into any other move.

Smash 4 offers a lot of promise for unique movesets... I hope it doesn't just become another "every move is a combo into something else" game where metagame and viability and tiers all come down to who has the best auto-cancelable no-lag aerials. The game seemed to be going in the right direction with speeding things up, but I am really (not) feeling this potential exploit. I won't condemn those who do, but that's my opinion on that matter as of right now, at least.

I totally empathize with you on those, but I don't think that's a worry for Smash 4.

IASA frames are pretty much the best method possible to add methods for experienced players to speed up their game play while being an inviting and simple mechanic for new players to take advantage of if they choose. IASA frames also does not necessarily imply that there is zero lag, it just means you don't have to sit through the entire ending lag animation before the game lifts the restriction on your inputs, this could mean that maybe you can only cancel the last couple of frames, still having to endure a fraction of the lag.

At the same time though, I still need to see extensive video evidence of those on all of the characters, I'm pretty apprehensive that this is even a thing.

 

[Untouch]

I think this was always in, just in a newer build.

 

[AAkacia]

Brawl's buffering was universal for all inputs, this is a timing window not too different from how one would tech a hit against the floor.


It's a nice technique, I just think it's too hard to do. If there was an easier way to perform it (for instance, something like a dash command while crouched, like if you tried to run while crawling?) then I would like it a lot more. I'm quite an advocate for advanced techniques being easier to do so that skilled play becomes more accessible to players who have excellent knowledge and mastery of the basics, but simply can't manage precise inputs on a super tight timing window.

I started playing smash in April. I have never owned a Nintendo product until April besides a gameboy.

Wavedashing is easy. You hold the control stick as if you're trying to crouch and move forward and you press jump then shield. Why do people think this is hard?

Thinking this is hard because of the timing and precise inputs is the equivalent to thinking shooting people in a FPS is hard. You precisely move the control stick onto your moving target, and you input certain buttons at the time your reticule cross them.

To expand on that last thought, the strategies implemented in those games are useless without a level of mechanical skill (aim+movement+shooting, etc) and winning is impossible against someone who is good at both, even if you are god tier at one of them. This is precisely how something competitive should function. Intuitive mechanical and strategic depth.


Now, I agree that entry level competitive play should not be so ****ing demanding as melee, but when a game has been played competitively for 13 years, it's to be expected. To word that differently, you should get better at a game for your experience. 13 years is a lot of time for acquired experience. If there are not difficult mechanical inputs, as well as difficult strategy, the game will have an obvious skill ceiling which is not a good thing in any competitive game.


I am stoked to try smash 4. I hope it has difficult viable mechanics as well as a strategical requirement to be good at.

 

[ミスティック Speed]

I think this was always in, just in a newer build.

O.O THAT MARIO B-AIR HAD LITERALLY NO LANDING LAG!!!
Insane amount of proof, right here.

 

[[TSON]]

You guys need to chill. It just seems like there are just move-specific autocancel animations now. If you land during an attack before the hitbox comes out, you get less landing lag, which is called an autocancel. Then your FIRST INTERRUPTABLE FRAME (or IASA - "interruptable as soon as" frame) is early in the landing animation, which is normally many frames longer to begin with.

Almost all animations have early IASA frames, look at moves like Dedede's waddle throw; do you have to wait for Dedede to stand upright again to interrupt the animation? No! You can interrupt while his butt is still in front of the camera. If you DON'T interrupt it, a bunch of frames play to make the animation smoothly transition back to his standing animation. This is just how Sakurai balances the game looking pretty with the game being functional

 

[Azizibesmashing]

I think this was always in, just in a newer build.

THIS IS THE BEST GIF.... thank you. people look at mario. hits th ground with no lag and attacks

 

[Qsmash]

D1 said its impossible

Spoiler

whatever, I think we should wait.

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

I think this was always in, just in a newer build.

Good God that's crazy. So fluid.

 

[Azizibesmashing]

THIS IS THE BEST GIF.... thank you. people look at mario. hits th ground with no lag and attacks

@D1 this is exactly what I was describing , peep mario
Straight into attack mode. Or you can dash left or right or just hop right into a shield

This is brawlish?

Also @Hokori peep this gif above

Def was in the demo I played and did this with Marth, fox, villiger,bowser and wii fit

 

[Kosaki]

Yo, that would explain Lucina's Fair into Utilt in the leaked footage. Her Fair has barely any frames of landing lag.
Look at this :

 

[Exor]

I think this was always in, just in a newer build.

If I'm not mistaken, the source of this is Sakurai's match at E3's developer roundtable, correct? If so, this could be very promising as that was definitely a newer, different build than the one used at the demos/invitational.

However, OP, the main reason I'm having a hard time believing your claim is the fact that aside from the closed-doors press event at PAX (which has a very strict embargo on information until September 13) every Nintendo event has seemingly been using the E3 build of Smash 4. The ComicCon stream, the PAX floor demos, these have all been the E3 build. Pros have been present at every event and as far as I know none of them claim to have found the same thing with Marth's fair. I have trouble believing they'd update that build for any event at this point just because it'd be damn near pointless to update the build's mechanics/physics for the general public without adding a couple of new characters to the build. I suppose it's not impossible. But it seems like a huge hassle for the company to update their demo setups with a build that, in the eyes of the general public they're appealing to, would change little to nothing.

 

[Protom]

I think this was always in, just in a newer build.

Both Mario an pacman have little to no lag when they landed. This build is deffinetly different from the e3 one as it has pac-man, but could the PAX build possibly have been updated with these mechanics?

 

[LOGIA666]

This could be glorious. We have this to an extent L canceling, faster than Brawl movement, lack of tripping, and gamecube controllers.

Sakurai has given us almost everything we could need.

 

[Azizibesmashing]

If I'm not mistaken, the source of this is Sakurai's match at E3's developer roundtable, correct? If so, this could be very promising as that was definitely a newer, different build than the one used at the demos/invitational.

However, OP, the main reason I'm having a hard time believing your claim is the fact that aside from the closed-doors press event at PAX (which has a very strict embargo on information until September 13) every Nintendo event has seemingly been using the E3 build of Smash 4. The ComicCon stream, the PAX floor demos, these have all been the E3 build. Pros have been present at every event and as far as I know none of them claim to have found the same thing with Marth's fair. I have trouble believing they'd update that build for any event at this point just because it'd be damn near pointless to update the build's mechanics/physics for the general public without adding a couple of new characters to the build. I suppose it's not impossible. But it seems like a huge hassle for the company to update their demo setups with a build that, in the eyes of the general public they're appealing to, would change little to nothing.

marth is def been boosted, i know i don't have much proof. but I'm super sure about what i saw in my post

 

[Kosaki]

It's even faster than Melee's L-cancel. Even more technical since you have to choose between 3 options to cancel your landing lag.
That's crazy ROFL.

Smash 4 will REALLY be between Melee and Brawl at this point.

 

[The Revolutionary Cafe]

This ISN'T L-Canceling seems like an evolution of auto canceling still a good thing and looks really interesting.

 

[LOGIA666]

This ISN'T L-Canceling seems like an evolution of auto canceling still a good thing and looks really interesting.

Hey, if it reduces landing lag and allows us to follow up with combos in a similar style to Melee, I'm down. =)

 

[B0NK]

So why is there a random menu screen over the icons for about 5 frames of the gif?

 

[Poxnixles]

So why is there a random menu screen over the icons for about 5 frames of the gif?

Frame seeking on the YouTube timeline?

 

[Untouch]

The footage is from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDsmjbifWUk, i recorded from the video.

 

[The Revolutionary Cafe]

Hey, if it reduces landing lag and allows us to follow up with combos in a similar style to Melee, I'm down. =)

Not sure if it will be Melee styled as it will require a little more timing to get down on the right frame(s) where in Melee you could press L as you landed regardless of the frame to reduce the lag.

 

[B0NK]

Frame seeking on the YouTube timeline?

This makes sense, thank you.

 

[The Revolutionary Cafe]

No one seems to notice Megaman rolling out of his dsmash before it ends :C

 

[Zango]

No one seems to notice Megaman rolling out of his dsmash before it ends :C

The .gif is so sped up it's hard to tell; he likely just rolled out immediately after the animation ended.

Then again, Falcon did cancel his Falcon punch in the Robin trailer...

 

[Kosaki]

It's actually full speed footage, it's not even sped up.
EDIT : The same gif on gfycat :

You can slo mo it.

 

[PizzaWenisaur]

Not really convinced - at least with that Mario Gif.

Think Mario just has low landing lag on B-Air.

EDIT: Notice how he completely goes into neutral stance super quick.

 

[Zango]

It's actually full speed footage, it's not even sped up.

Oh **** this game is fast.

 

[HeavyLobster]

This looks more like IASA frames than anything else. It would be a horrible idea to incorporate a 100% lag cancel this late in development, since you could never hope to balance a mechanic that changes gameplay so drastically in such a short time. (This might not be the case if it were being implemented well before E3) At any rate, it does appear as though the landing lag on some moves is reduced in the final build compared to the demo, so I wouldn't worry too much. We're only a week and a half away from getting answers, so we really should just try to be patient.

 

[Azizibesmashing]

The .gif is so sped up it's hard to tell; he likely just rolled out immediately after the animation ended.

Then again, Falcon did cancel his Falcon punch in the Robin trailer...

trust this gif is an amazing representation of what i played. maybe a tad bit slower but this is truly amazing

 

[Azizibesmashing]

Not really convinced - at least with that Mario Gif.

Think Mario just has low landing lag on B-Air.

EDIT: Notice how he completely goes into neutral stance super quick.

bro this is practically all the characters i mentioned in my post.
trust me.

 

[Kosaki]

Not really convinced - at least with that Mario Gif.

Think Mario just has low landing lag on B-Air.

EDIT: Notice how he completely goes into neutral stance super quick.

This would be auto cancel.
In the gif above, Mario does a fast fall Bair. And nearly no frames of lag are shown.

 

[PizzaWenisaur]

Dude Imma need frame analysis of both...

 

[Kosaki]

Also, you can clearly see in the ending of your gif that Mario's second Bair hitting the sand bad has some frames of landing lag.
It's still pretty short though.

 

[standardtoaster]

the pacman gif is from a 30fps clip. if you bothered to look at it in a gif editor you would clearly see it shows 7 30fps images of landing lag meaning 15 landing lag on bair. 15 =/= 0