Cancel Recovery & auto canceling ? ALSO DI! (confirmed) EDIT*

[relaxedexcorcist]

Someone confirm if I'm understanding this correctly, cause I'm not sure if I'm having trouble understanding what I'm reading.

The PAX build of Smash 4 apparently has an l-cancel which cancels all the lag like in Smash 64, but instead of hitting shield you can do any action that isn't a jump, and that this is not just an auto-cancel.

 

[Khao]

Someone confirm if I'm understanding this correctly, cause I'm not sure if I'm having trouble understanding what I'm reading.

The PAX build of Smash 4 apparently has an l-cancel which cancels all the lag like in Smash 64, but instead of hitting shield you can do any action that isn't a jump, and that this is not just an auto-cancel.

If I'm understanding things right, there's a small window as soon as you land where your attacks, shield, and dashes can cancel the landing animation.

 

[Azizibesmashing]

So you're saying aerials are canceled if you attack as soon as you land?

Do only certain types of moves cancel aerials? So Specials cancel them? What about Shielding?

Someone confirm if I'm understanding this correctly, cause I'm not sure if I'm having trouble understanding what I'm reading.

The PAX build of Smash 4 apparently has an l-cancel which cancels all the lag like in Smash 64, but instead of hitting shield you can do any action that isn't a jump, and that this is not just an auto-cancel.

Not pax!
I was at the nintendo tour bro.

Also when you land you can dash left or right no lag or A attack no lag and that I'm 100% positive about


Auto cancels are forsure.
When landing you can go straight into shield.

I swore I saw an L cancel when I was playing the demo but I don't play using that that much in my daily smash

 

[Ghoti]

Not pax!
I was at the nintendo tour bro.

Also when you land you can dash left or right no lag or A attack no lag and that I'm 100% positive about


Auto cancels are forsure.
When landing you can go straight into shield.

I swore I saw an L cancel when I was playing the demo but I don't play using that that much in my daily smash

If this is true, the game could be very fast. And the competitive viability would go up a lot. I wonder if this is the rumoured mechanic that's kept hidden. I heard a rumour saying that a certain mechanic was shown at PAX which would be for the benefit of competitive players.

I'll have to find the sauce.

 

[relaxedexcorcist]

Not pax!
I was at the nintendo tour bro.

Also when you land you can dash left or right no lag or A attack no lag and that I'm 100% positive about


Auto cancels are forsure.
When landing you can go straight into shield.

I swore I saw an L cancel when I was playing the demo but I don't play using that that much in my daily smash

Ah my mistake. I was under the impression this was the same build at PAX.

So it basically is an l-cancel but easier to learn and way more natural than in N64 and Melee. Sounds good. Though some moves are gonna become nightmarish to deal with.

oh god...Gonna have fun trying to punish that

 

[Azizibesmashing]

If I'm understanding things right, there's a small window as soon as you land where your attacks, shield, and dashes can cancel the landing animation.

YES YOU PUT IN THE BEST WORDS
THANKYOU LORD

100%

 

[Reila]

If I'm understanding things right, there's a small window as soon as you land where your attacks, shield, and dashes can cancel the landing animation.

That doesn't sound bad at all.

 

[Raijinken]

Ah my mistake. I was under the impression this was the same build at PAX.

So it basically is an l-cancel but easier to learn and way more natural than in N64 and Melee. Sounds good.

My thought exactly (though it sounds a bit distinct from an L-cancel, depending on if you treat the L as L Button or Lag). As long as it comes naturally during play, that sort of technique is great for improving the offensive game. It's when the tricks come out of left field that it feels like a deliberate barrier to play.

 

[relaxedexcorcist]

I'm wondering if this will work with every move though. Sonic, Bowser, Toon Link and Sheik using d-air to dive to the ground incredibly fast and landing almost laglessly sounds a bit too silly.

 

[Raijinken]

I'm wondering if this will work with every move though. Sonic, Bowser, Toon Link and Sheik using d-air to dive to the ground incredibly fast and landing almost laglessly sounds a bit too silly.

Hopefully it will be move-specific, or moves will be balanced around an expectation of such followup. If it's a global technique, it's fairest if every character can use it with comparable success, not like wavedashing. For instance, I could see Sonic's nair being very fair to follow up, because it's neither (traditionally) a strong kill move nor a super laggy move to begin with. It's when you make killmoves impossible to punish on failure that you start running into balance issues and mechanical favoritism.

 

[Ghoti]

@ Azizibesmashing

Has SDI returned? I don't know if I have seen any evidence of it returning.

 

[Raijinken]

@ Azizibesmashing

Has SDI returned? I don't know if I have seen any evidence of it returning.

If I recall, no one has found a way to SDI. It may still exist, but if it's rediscovered, multi-hit moves are back to being a weak option.

 

[relaxedexcorcist]

Hopefully it will be move-specific, or moves will be balanced around an expectation of such followup. If it's a global technique, it's fairest if every character can use it with comparable success, not like wavedashing. For instance, I could see Sonic's nair being very fair to follow up, because it's neither (traditionally) a strong kill move nor a super laggy move to begin with. It's when you make killmoves impossible to punish on failure that you start running into balance issues and mechanical favoritism.

Though how well balanced could it be though. From what I understand this wasn't in the e3 build, and if they didn't add this until around or after that time, they've only had a few months to work with it. I wonder if they could properly balance that in the small amount of time they had.

@ Azizibesmashing

Has SDI returned? I don't know if I have seen any evidence of it returning.

I think I saw a video somewhere showing it's still in just not nearly as useful.

EDIT: here

 

[lob]

omg.. i dont like to do reaction images but

this is a big deal

 

[Ghoti]

It looks like it's still in, but we have to find out how to use it

 

[Raijinken]

Though how well balanced could it be though. From what I understand this wasn't in the e3 build, and if they didn't add this until around or after that time, they've only had a few months to work with it. I wonder if they could properly balance that in the small amount of time they had.

A good point. Fortunately, the U and 3DS have the option for balance patches, if they choose to use them (and are insightful enough to do so carefully). Even if not, the metagame changes over time, and if the past games could survive for years with "viable" rosters of six characters or so, we'll have plenty of time with Smash4 to learn how (or if) to counter those techniques.

 

[Phan7om]

So what im hearing is that you could aerial close to the ground and cancel the landing lag, and it wasnt just an autocancel. If thats true Im totally loving that change. But something about it tells me thats too good to be true lol. You're 100% sure it wasnt an autocancel, like you could do the same thing again but there was landing lag... but like you said you could sometimes cancel it with proper timing????

 

[InfinityCollision]

The problem is the amount of tricks and techniques. One or two are okay, but not everyone have time to learn and practice all of those things you mentioned. It is not like I have plans of becoming a high level player, but I would like to not have my butt kicked in online matches simply because I don't have time to learn one hundred tricks and mind games, you know?

"I don't want to have to work to be good" aka the player mentality that inspired Brawl.

If you can't or don't want to learn the intricacies of a game there's nothing intrinsically wrong with that, but it's not your place to limit those who do. Enjoy what you have and let them have their fun too.

As far as the canceling thing goes, if it's legit then I like that this is a simple, reasonably intuitive, and open-ended mechanic. It's accessible but adds depth, which is an ideal combination. L-canceling is powerful but somewhat unwieldy due to the different potential timings and the use of an otherwise unintuitive input. It speaks well of the design process for Sm4sh if this is what we can expect from the game.

 

[Ganreizu]

If I'm understanding things right, there's a small window as soon as you land where your attacks, shield, and dashes can cancel the landing animation.

How is this different from brawl buffering?

 

[ミスティック Speed]

Dodges work like they did in Brawl (but with more ending lag), and thus, fortunately no wavedashing.

...yeah....wavedashing would be overdoing it.
It'd be basically be crossing the "line of balance" between Melee and Brawl, and thus, make it feel as if it's leaning more towards Melee.

 

[Xyro77]

The problem is the amount of tricks and techniques. One or two are okay, but not everyone have time to learn and practice all of those things you mentioned. It is not like I have plans of becoming a high level player, but I would like to not have my butt kicked in online matches simply because I don't have time to learn one hundred tricks and mind games, you know?

Welcome to a fighting game.

 

[Reila]

Welcome to a fighting game.

It is funny how you assume I am new to fighting games.

I have been playing fighting games since the late 90s (The King of Fighters mainly) and the last thing I want is Smash to be like those games.

 

[Xyro77]

It's been that way since competitive melee.

Learn the techs or get left behind. Or maybe just play people who don't use the techs.

 

[Khao]

How is this different from brawl buffering?

Brawl's buffering "records" your input so the action's performed as soon as your current animation's over.

This thingy doesn't wait, the recovery animation is instantly cut and goes directly into whatever you pressed.

So one of them waits for the animation to be over, and the other one cancels it.

I still want to see it in action, hope it's not just a misunderstanding or whatevers.

 

[Baskerville]

I really would've liked to see a video of this.

 

[Ganreizu]

Brawl's buffering "records" your input so the action's performed as soon as your current animation's over.

This thingy doesn't wait, the recovery animation is instantly cut and goes directly into whatever you pressed.

So one of them waits for the animation to be over, and the other one cancels it.

I still want to see it in action, hope it's not just a misunderstanding or whatevers.

Sounds like what cancels should have been from the beginning. Not "technically demanding" like L-cancels, but not mindlessly easy like brawl without favoring offense or defense too much as a result due to power shielding not being extremely easy, while still impacting both if not done consistently. I like.

 

[mygamecube]

Sounds promising for competitive players. Hopefully it holds up.

 

[Spinach Ops™]

That'll do , pig . That'll do .

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I mean, whatever. If this gets Melee players to stop whining about things changing I'll take it.

 

[SSBBDaisy]

i jumped in the air with Marth to perform a fair and as soon as i hit the ground i could attack immidiatly, Dash left or right immidiatley , or go into my shield immidiatly. with the right timing you skip the animation ... i don't know if this has been proved for the new SSB4 if so I'm apologize for making another thread about it... but this is why BRAWL SUCKED. i performed the same stunts with the villager and fox. for example i jump up and use his sling shot forward AND backwards (FAIR x BAIR) and as soon as i land i cancel the animation by attacking as soon as i hit the right frame landing on the ground or with R to shield or dash left and right.

Um lets get something strait here. What you did was called an auto cancel. EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER in Brawl has at least 1 or even more auto canceling aerial if done right out of a short hop

For example,

Peach fair, bair, and dair
Marth fair and nair
Mario nair, bair, and uair
DK, bair, uair, nair
etc.

Every single character has aerials that auto cancel out of a short hop and some require a fast fall during the middle of the aerial like wario and bowser.

So you saying brawl not having auto canceling aerials is why it sucked makes no sense.


So basically, from what I've read from you is that you can confirm that auto canceling has returned for Marth as Marth's fair did get a nerf by extending the lag in the original E3 demo. So I wonder if Sakurai did change the demo. If he did you then yes this might be in the final build (brawl 2.0) because it would be pointless for him to change the demo and add these mechanics if it wasn't in the final build. Like for real, add these mechanics for the demo this close to release......

 

[Katy Parry]

D1 (a famous smash commentator) confirmed this exact thing at PAX. Seems like they modified the E3 build: kept the same characters and stages, but updated its mechanics/physics.

Fantastic news, especially for Marth mains. Thanks again for reporting this, OP. You a rich homie

Source? When and how do you know?

 

[Roxas215]

If this is true then im hyped again for the competitive viability of this game. I mean im gonna get it regardless but until now i didn't have high hopes for this game in the tournament sense.

 

[chipz]

I mean, whatever. If this gets Melee players to stop whining about things changing I'll take it.

because automatic lagless moves would make it less skillful, like a minigolf hole that has slopes all leading to the flag.

if you want to play item matches with your friends, none of this even matters to you, so it really seems like you're the one whining about something insignificant to the way you want to play.

 

[Neanderthal]

Sounds fun.
I take back my slagging of Sakurai recently if this is true.

Maybe the perfect balance of a tech that adds tonnes of unpredictability, options and speed while at the same time not being too hard to learn for more casual players.

 

[fabulouspants]

2nd coming of "ink dropping". prepare to be disappointed.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

because automatic lagless moves would make it less skillful, like a minigolf hole that has slopes all leading to the flag.

if you want to play item matches with your friends, none of this even matters to you, so it really seems like you're the one whining about something insignificant to the way you want to play.

??

I played competitive Brawl. I haven't turned on items in years.

 

[Mighty_Guy100]

So many people watching this thread, wondering if this is legit.....

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Hmm, this would be what was confirmed by VGbootcamp annd the stop-run cancelling to be more legitimate.

Seems like we can expect this to stay and remain in the final version.

 

[chipz]

??

I played competitive Brawl. I haven't turned on items in years.

then this is even less relevant to you

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

then this is even less relevant to you

It's relevant to anyone who is going to play the game?