Can someone tell me just WHAT is wrong with stale moves?

[brinboy789]

Stale moves is exactly what it is called: When a move has gone stale

For example, If I'm Snake, and I constantly use my ftilt, the damage would decrease and have less knockback. It would also become less effective in other ways.

no. it would only have less knockback and the damage would increase. unless your talking about a mind effect, like being predictable. it doesnt really anything else besides damage/knockback

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

I actually rather like Stale-Moves. Against people who actually know what they are doing, it's a way to make sure that Variety stays in the match, since people can't just use one move over and over to try to get damage and or kills. The only reason matches are longer is because people must use new tricks inorder to keep the damage and pressure up on the enemy, but doesn't seeing new moves and combos make things more interesting? If it doesn't, I honestly don't know what does. And people that seem to enjoy hacking and moding a perfectly good game because they dislike one element should go get enough money to make them game in the way they want it to, 'cause very few other people will ever want to see it that way. (However, I do support the idea of letting the Pokemon Trainer get some type of upgrade that lets it's Pokemon stay in longer. Moves getting stale is one thing. Characters getting stale is something else, despite the pros that still rock with the PT.)

 

[Arw1ng]

All I know is, without Stale moves, Lucas' Dtilt is B-R-O-K-E-N.
(6% per hit? I DUN THINKSO)

 

[AvaricePanda]

IMO, stale moves should only affect damage, not knockback.

AKA melee.

 

[hotgarbage]

Hm, a downside to the stale moves system is that it screws over quite a few characters, namely those safest/best damage racking moves are also their ko moves. That said, on paper it seems that the system is really necessary..... I mean without the stale moves system stuff like shuttle loop and snake's ftilt seems pretty broke. Then again I'm only playing theory-bros here; I'd have to play the game without it in place to really tell ^_____>.


Ideally I think that moves should stale in a" customized" way rather than a universal way. In addition I do think that the stale moves system in Brawl is a bit excessive..... having to land 10 attacks to fully restore one move regardless of how many times it's been used is pretty ridiculous, and nearly guarantees that useful moves will not be at full power (thus, as others have said, lengthening matches). This is of course unless the character has a useful multi-hit/multi-input move like dancing blade or a spammable projectile ala falco's lasers.... but once again this harms the game's balance by tilting the odds in these very select character's favor.


So yeah, enough of my rambling . To sum all of this up, some sort of stale moves system is probably necessary (note that I'm not entirely sure), but regardless there has to be a better way to do it than Brawl's current excessive blanket system.

 

[Lemonwater]

I like stale moves. It might not be good for you if you have to 'rely' on a certain move to kill, but that's your problem if you have been throwing it out too much and making yourself predictable anyway, and I believe each character has multiple ways to KO an opponent, though with some, it's easier. Stale moves also increases skill. Instead of throwing out your fastest, best attack over and over again or spamming projectiles, you have to actually mix it up, making you less predictable. You must know which attacks are appropriate for certain situations. This makes your opponent better at a faster rate because they will have to learn to deal with many kinds of attacks, not just one or two. Same goes for you if you're not fighting a laser spammer.

 

[DemonFart]

stale moves link aerials.

 

[_Keno_]

Do moves stale if you dont hit anyone with it? Or if you hit a shield? If they do, can you un-stale them without hitting a person?

 

[DemonFart]

U can refresh a stale move by using different ones.

 

[Adetque]

Stale moves are what allow chaingrabs.
Chaingrabs are bad imo

Spoiler

Correct me if I'm wrong

 

[Collective of Bears]

Stale moves are what allow chaingrabs.
Chaingrabs are bad imo

Spoiler

Correct me if I'm wrong

OK then, I'll correct you. You're wrong.

 

[DemonFart]

stale moves dont allow chain grabs.
^^agree with above poster.

 

[Adetque]

stale moves dont allow chain grabs.

Then what does?

 

[SothE700k]

Then what does?

Um, ANYTHING?

 

[SothE700k]

Do moves stale if you dont hit anyone with it? Or if you hit a shield? If they do, can you un-stale them without hitting a person?

No, it must come in contact with someone or something that can pop or be struck (statue or balloon for example), to make it stale/freshen other moves.

(Apologies on the double post.)

 

[ExCeL 52]

You being stupid -> ChainGrab.

 

[InvincibleAgent]

I wish people would increase the staleness. If you have to use the same move over and over, IMO you shouldn't win.

 

[_Keno_]

I think they should decrease it, if you're stupid enough to get hit with the same move over and over again, then you deserved to lose. lol

And thanks Soth.

 

[Adetque]

I think they should decrease it, if you're stupid enough to get hit with the same move over and over again, then you deserved to lose. lol

*cough*mach tornado*cough*

 

[xINiiTrOI]

Its a joke super smash is the only joke of a fighter to have damage negation to moves. It is alot more severe i brawl then it is melee.

 

[Plum]

I like it and at the same time it can be VERY frustrating when you are forced to use 10 moves before landing a kill.

I've watched matches of games like Street Fighter or the VS. Series where a pro will literally use one move to create a wall and win. Serlin is even famous doing this to win matches he otherwise couldn't. I wouldn't play Smash if it was reduced to this.

Stalemoves eliminates the potential for this to happen period, but at the same time the physics of Smash takes out the chance for it to happen anyways. If the player is spamming one move and you can't get past it, then just use your shield and punish ending lag, grab, or whatever.

It does slow things down a lot though and really does put some characters at a disadvantage who rack up damage with their best kill move (ZSS for example with her Side B) while other characters may have several damage building moves and kill moves (G&W for example doesn't have to worry about the stalemove system nearly as much while also having moves practically built for refreshing moves)

 

[SmashBrother2008]

It's move decay.

 

[Hyrus]

Almost ALL fighters the name of the game is to KO your opponent. Whether it be by a life bar or knocking you opponent out of the arena (or in Brawl's case, through a blast zone).

We're probably not on the same page here. KOs are how you determine the winner or loser, but they are a goal second to dealing damage.

Every hit you perform can be observed as one battle in a massive war. If you can't win battles, you won't win the war. Therefor, the focus of smash should be to win as many battles as possible (land hits and rack damage) and let the KO come naturally. Trying to KO as quickly as possible makes you predictable and open to vulnerability.

People will spam projectiles no matter what. That's just smart play in any game. Making it smarter won't change much. What about KO moves. In Melee, Falcon could spam Knees all he wanted, and the knockback wouldn't decay. Fox could spam usmash and uair. Sheik could spam fair and dsmash. Along with these, it was good for Fox to spam lasers, and for Sheik to spam needles.

I can't argue for the exclusion of Stale Moves in Brawl since much of the game has been balanced around that. But I can argue against them in principal.

Spammy attacks are spammy because of poor balance choices; whatever ties that they have to Stale Moves is secondary to their design. Pika's Thunder still hits even if the rat is knocked off its feet and provides very little safe opportunity to counter it, unlike most character attacks found in the game. Mach Tornado has a massive, high priority hitbox with little startup or ending lag - why? Why did the master of numbers decide a move with no real vulnerability was a balanced choice for the game? Why does Snake's FTilt have massive reach, priority, damage and KO power? Aren't these attributes suppose to be spread around a character's moveset?

Diminishing KO power "bandaids" spammy moves that KO, but it hurts characters who don't have a spammy KO or reliable damage racking move. In truth, Pika's Thunder should be interrupted if it gets hit, Mach Tornado should have some kind of startup so the player can evade or can't be juggled with it, and Snake's tilt should lose one of its qualities.

Again, many members of the roster don't have a lot of choices of what move they can use, where. There's so much prediction, timing, and understanding of character movesets that goes into every hit that a Smash Attack might be the only move that can win in a given scenario. That makes Diminishing Returns only deep on paper. In game, it's simply a bandaid because no one said "Mr. Sakurai, how exactly would a player counter the tornado?"

===

Excluding Stale Moves could be quite harmful to Brawl's balance - I think we're on the same page there. But in general, the way Stale Moves are implemented in Melee/Brawl don't really deter spamming of moves. I think they add about as much depth as looping attacks sucking in a character.

 

[Levitas]

Its a joke super smash is the only joke of a fighter to have damage negation to moves. It is alot more severe i brawl then it is melee.

Every fighter I can think of has proration, and the only difference is that smash isn't keeping a combo meter, so the proration is by move and not by hit number within a combo.

 

[SpongeBathBill]

Spammy attacks are spammy because of poor balance choices; whatever ties that they have to Stale Moves is secondary to their design. ... Why does Snake's FTilt have massive reach, priority, damage and KO power? Aren't these attributes suppose to be spread around a character's moveset? ... [Stale moves is] simply a bandaid...

Indeed. I'd rather have a properly balanced character roster than a fairly artificial quick-fix.

Imo, move decay might been well-intentioned, but on the whole it does more harm than good. Rather than punishing a player for using the strongest moves at his disposal, the game should force his opponent to find a way around them.

 

[voomm]

It is when you use the same moves over a ton