Social Can Ken Ken combo again? - Marth Smash Switch speculation thread

[hermes]

this is cute

 

[Nike.]

Can Marth input short hop fair -> wavedash with the same jump? Ive seen Marth double jump after the fair so I'm curious if the air dodge comes out similarly.

Bair -> wavedash was possible in PM and felt amazing but I don't think that would work in Ultimate based off what footage I've seen so far.

 

[**Havok**]

Can Marth input short hop fair -> wavedash with the same jump? Ive seen Marth double jump after the fair so I'm curious if the air dodge comes out similarly.

He can but it's not good. The wavedash/waveland is laggy. The fair is lagless tho!

 

[Nike.]

Thanks, Havok! Glad to see you back <3

 

[**Havok**]

Thanks, Havok! Glad to see you back <3

Thank you! Good to be back. <3

 

[Vipermoon]

Can Marth input short hop fair -> wavedash with the same jump? Ive seen Marth double jump after the fair so I'm curious if the air dodge comes out similarly.

Bair -> wavedash was possible in PM and felt amazing but I don't think that would work in Ultimate based off what footage I've seen so far.

Marth has four frames in the air to do whatever he pleases after SH Fair. Two frames for Bair. One can air dodge out of these, but it may not be as good as Ultimate's normal wavedash (especially out of Fair) because it's being inputted from a higher position. It does negate jump squat, so that's good. We'll see if it's useful; I think out of Bair it may be.

Check out Chrom's trailer, where he does one after Fair – right before hitting the ground:

And here is a normal Ultimate wavedash (which is a lot better than the demo's)

Both videos are starting at the correct time.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

So did Marth get any buffs besides the engine? Feeling a bit bad playing him versus AI.... The new jab is ugh.

Also does the new Dair affect anything in practice?

 

[Vipermoon]

So did Marth get any buffs besides the engine? Feeling a bit bad playing him versus AI.... The new jab is ugh.

Also does the new Dair affect anything in practice?

Dair isn't new, same as Smash 4 (wish it was Melee/Brawl's).

Before I start, I will say we don't know about hitbox placement, sizes, and active frames yet.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
To help me think of any buffs, I'll go through each move:

Jab: No, less vertical range and no combos
Dash Attack: No (most characters have less lag here, not Marth)
Ftilt: No
Utilt: No
Dtilt: No
Fsmash: No
Usmash: No
Dsmash: Horizontal knockback on sourspot
Nair: No
Fair: No
Bair: No
Uair: No
Dair: No
Fthrow: No, unless it's no longer weight dependent (need game files); nerf: more end lag and base knockback
Bthrow: Yes, less end lag
Uthrow: No
Dthrow: No, less damage (5 > 4)
Shield Breaker: Yes, the headshot damage
Dancing Blade: No, more startup and end lag, less damage
Dolphin Slash: No, less intangibility
Counter: No, more end lag
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Blanket, game-wide changes:

Less landing lag
Faster run speed
Faster walk speed
Faster air speed
Same weight
More damage on ledge getup attack
Laggier back roll dodge
Faster taunts
Faster pummel

 

[Chibi-Chan]

Dair isn't new, same as Smash 4 (wish it was Melee/Brawl's).

Before I start, I will say we don't know about hitbox placement, sizes, and active frames yet.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
To help me think of any buffs, I'll go through each move:

Jab: No, less vertical range and no combos
Dash Attack: No (most characters have less lag here, not Marth)
Ftilt: No
Utilt: No
Dtilt: No
Fsmash: No
Usmash: No
Dsmash: Horizontal knockback on sourspot
Nair: No
Fair: No
Bair: No
Uair: No
Dair: No
Fthrow: No, unless it's no longer weight dependent (need game files); nerf: more end lag and base knockback
Bthrow: Yes, less end lag
Uthrow: No
Dthrow: No, less damage (5 > 4)
Shield Breaker: Yes, the headshot damage
Dancing Blade: No, more startup and end lag, less damage
Dolphin Slash: No, less intangibility
Counter: No, more end lag
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Blanket, game-wide changes:

Less landing lag
Faster run speed
Faster walk speed
Faster air speed
Same weight
More damage on ledge getup attack
Laggier back roll dodge
Faster taunts
Faster pummel

Thanks for such a detailed response! Though I gotta say it's not very encouraging... I remember Marth had the best walk-speed, but that feature is kinda redundant this game where you can do tilts out of dash.

I'll let you know right now I'm pretty sure the range on his moves was NOT increased (In fact, F-smash might be very slightly shorter, but maybe just placebo), but there might be more specific hitbox improvements.
Jab has NEGATIVE knockback, it moves the enemy slightly towards you.

One buff I found is he cna now jab lock, though that mechanic was heavily nerfed and the range is not ideal for F-smashing during the opening you get. I suppose you can pivot F-smash to try and get the sweetspot.

They weren't very generous with Marth x.x I suppose the landing lag buffs may make his Fair safe now.

Thanks again! I hope better Marth players than me can find cool stuff with him, since I always loved this Character.

 

[Vipermoon]

Thanks for such a detailed response! Though I gotta say it's not very encouraging... I remember Marth had the best walk-speed, but that feature is kinda redundant this game where you can do tilts out of dash.

I'll let you know right now I'm pretty sure the range on his moves was NOT increased (In fact, F-smash might be very slightly shorter, but maybe just placebo), but there might be more specific hitbox improvements.
Jab has NEGATIVE knockback, it moves the enemy slightly towards you.

One buff I found is he cna now jab lock, though that mechanic was heavily nerfed and the range is not ideal for F-smashing during the opening you get. I suppose you can pivot F-smash to try and get the sweetspot.

They weren't very generous with Marth x.x I suppose the landing lag buffs may make his Fair safe now.

Thanks again! I hope better Marth players than me can find cool stuff with him, since I always loved this Character.

People like to think the developers are messing with Marth's range (they thought so from Brawl > launch Smash 4 too, hitbox data proved otherwise). Every Ultimate gameplay video with Marth, you get YouTube comments mentioning his range. His range is not increased, correct. But it isn't decreased (you didn't say it, I know). Now... did they normalize a few moves to make up for the hitbox imbalances the Smash 4 patches caused? We need to view the data.

I can tell you one thing. The sword model itself (viewed not during an attack) is longer. It's barely noticeable – not like the huge sword Link now uses – but it's enough to get the hitboxes closer to matching the model again. It's taken me a long time to figure this out. Sword length looks more like Melee now (don't freak out... other than Fsmash, Melee Marth did not have noticeably more range). Aesthetically, it is more than welcome. Brawl and Smash 4 Marth's sword model felt like it was hardly longer than his arm; I'm looking at my Marth amiibo as I type.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

People like to think the developers are messing with Marth's range (they thought so from Brawl > launch Smash 4 too, hitbox data proved otherwise). Every Ultimate gameplay video with Marth, you get YouTube comments mentioning his range. His range is not increased, correct. But it isn't decreased (you didn't say it, I know). Now... did they normalize a few moves to make up for the hitbox imbalances the Smash 4 patches caused? We need to view the data.

I can tell you one thing. The sword model itself (viewed not during an attack) is longer. It's barely noticeable – not like the huge sword Link now uses – but it's enough to get the hitboxes closer to matching the model again. It's taken me a long time to figure this out. Sword length looks more like Melee now (don't freak out... other than Fsmash, Melee Marth did not have noticeably more range). Aesthetically, it is more than welcome. Brawl and Smash 4 Marth's sword model felt like it was hardly longer than his arm; I'm looking at my Marth amiibo as I type.

Mhm, the tiny butter knife from smash 4. This would definitely explain why the range in some moves feels reduced. Sweetspot would be grazing them with the tip of the sword, but now you actually have to get them properly inside the weapon. As you said, it's not much, but when you play Marth every pixel counts. Thanks for clearing this up!

And yeah, I remember people going crazy about the hitboxes in smash 4 and it was nothing.

 

[roymustang1990-]

Marths jab 1 can frame trap.caught a few people with dancing blade afterwards

 

[Vipermoon]

Marths jab 1 can frame trap.caught a few people with dancing blade afterwards

How? It does very little knockback/hitstun like the other jabs. This isn't true.

 

[marth_t90]

can confirm its not true after trying several times ur opponents mustve been shook to hit a button or somethin

 

[roymustang1990-]

can confirm its not true after trying several times ur opponents mustve been shook to hit a button or somethin

Was only tested on an incineroar player and young link player who most likely reacted slowly after being in block stun by jab 1.I've been counter jabbed out a few times by different characters during the transition,a few were also able to roll out.

I wish smash ultimate would put a counter hit indicator on the screen like traditional fighting games

 

[Vipermoon]

Nair connects very poorly. Especially tipper first hit into second hit.

And this EZ short hop mechanic is ruining the tipper game. Because for Fair and Bair, it automatically moves you forward/backward, effectively schewing your brain's tipper zone. This happens to ever character, but thanks to tippers, it affects Marth the worst.

 

[Idon]

Ah, I keep failing to get a shorthop consistently,

Damn you fat thumbs, you're ruining my Marth.
... and most of my other characters now that I think about it.

 

[kwerner]

Nair connects very poorly. Especially tipper first hit into second hit.

And this EZ short hop mechanic is ruining the tipper game. Because for Fair and Bair, it automatically moves you forward/backward, effectively schewing your brain's tipper zone. This happens to ever character, but thanks to tippers, it affects Marth the worst.

Just don't use it. You can still use aerials the same way you have since melee there is just an additional option of hitting both buttons at the same time. Personally all i've found it useful for is very quickly nairing out of shield. It's a pretty piss mechanic otherwise for the reasons you stated.

 

[Vipermoon]

Just don't use it. You can still use aerials the same way you have since melee there is just an additional option of hitting both buttons at the same time. Personally all i've found it useful for is very quickly nairing out of shield. It's a pretty piss mechanic otherwise for the reasons you stated.

The way I normally do it is by hitting both buttons at the same time (tap jump + c stick). Trying to avoid the auto-short-hop means your full hop aerial isn't frame perfect. I can barely autocancel full hop Dair.

 

[Idon]

Vipermoon
So...
How'd it feel to fight ZeRo in a 4 player FFA?
lol, you did well to last that long against his wall of explosions.

 

[Vipermoon]

I have random stuff to report:
- Fsmash always sends people the way you're facing. No more reverse jank when they're hit from behind you.
- Dancing Blade up finisher is very weak; meaning it will never kill. Even tipper. It's purpose is for juggles and to connect even at high percent.
- If their percent is high, DB3 will send them too far for the finisher. Use DB3-down in this case, then the finisher can still connect.
- Dancing Blade has really tiny tipper zones. We're talking pixels.
- Dolphin Slash's 6% body hitbox is gone (the one that hits from behind). What a shame. No more DS recovery hitbox clip > release ledge > Bair combo.
- DB1 air animation takes forever (so ledge isn't grabbable), and no aerial drift. You would have to interrupt with Fair to get your movement back.
- Short hop DB1 into stuff is still possible, though with far less hitstun and tall characters only.
- Holy grab range! Grab range is HUGE. He starts grabbing before even his fingers! Smash 4 was the wrist. We Melee now.
- Can no longer alter DS fall speed by holding up or down [right after the hitbox]. If you knew about this, you're going to miss it. You can still fast fall after the animation ends of course.
- Running Usmash slides less... huge nerf
- Double jump DB1, if done correctly, will yield a higher recovery (thanks training stage). It's easier to input DS as soon as possible because the threat of accidental DB2 is smaller (DB has smaller input windows).
- Tipper Jab literally sucks them in; tried it at 999%. Often making Jab 2 sourspot even if you tippered Jab 1. This has to be a brand new Sakurai angle for Jabs.
- None of our throws are weight based. This makes Dthrow consistent against all characters. I think all of the throws in this game no longer alter animation speed based on opponent weight. All of them are slowed-down for Ultimate in the first place.
- Jab has major range nerfs. I'm not even talking about vertical, but horizontal. No other moves seem to have any range nerfs (DB is all over the place, but it doesn't count – it's all new).
- DB-Up doesn't cover much above Marth like it looks like it does. Hits 2 and 3 absolutely don't hit people on BF platforms, even though the sword goes right through.
- Fsmash on BF platforms is still possible but still inconsistent.
- Marth says "Predictable" as one of his Counter Quotes! SO SASSY. I love this English Dub because of things like this. I heard it first as I countered a recovery, which made a Critical Hit sound by the way – all strong counter hits make the sound.
- Marth has a new crouch, looks more natural. I think it puts him at the same height.
- Dash Attack tipper has more knockback scaling; tipper can kill. Think Roy's Dash Attack, but maybe a little weaker.
- Shield Breaker's Headshot does more damage ONLY. Knockback is unaffected. This is similar to how the damage differences between normal aerials and short hop aerials also don't affect knockback.

Vipermoon
So...
How'd it feel to fight ZeRo in a 4 player FFA?
lol, you did well to last that long against his wall of explosions.

Huh? I never knew that I ran into ZeRo again (I did it all the time in Smash 4, because location). Now I have to go look for it....

I'm not comfortable enough with myself in this game to be on Twitch yet. Cringing already. I'm just playing patiently while I figure things out. Sticking to Smash 4 fundamentals for now. But I got into Elite, so my opponents are better. Because of that, online is good so far.

Edit (not really an edit), found it
Oh yeah, that match. I suppose I looked alright. I knew he'd mention me. He knows me as a viewer (also moderator), but he forgot he's met me at a few Michigan tournaments.

Thanks for mentioning it. I had no way of knowing "jp" was ZeRo. What happened to Ketchup (Lol)?

 

[Idon]

I have random stuff to report:
- Fsmash always sends people the way you're facing. No more reverse jank when they're hit from behind you.
- Dancing Blade up finisher very weak, meaning it will never kill. Even tipper. It's purpose is for juggles and to connect even at high percent.
- Dancing Blade has really tiny tipper zones. We're talking pixels.
- Dolphin Slash's 6% body hitbox is gone (the one that hits from behind). What a shame. No more DS recovery hitbox clip > release ledge > Bair.
- DB1 air animation takes forever (so ledge isn't grabbable), and no aerial drift. You would have to interrupt with Fair to get your movement back.
- Short hop DB1 into stuff is still possible, though with far less hitstun and tall characters only.
- Holy grab range! Grab range is HUGE. He starts grabbing before even his fingers! Smash 4 was the wrist. We Melee now.
- Can no longer alter DS fall speed by holding up or down [right after the hitbox]. If you knew about this, you're going to miss it. You can still fast fall after the animation ends of course.
- Running Usmash slides less... huge nerf
- Double jump DB1, if done correctly, will yield a higher recovery. It's easier to input DS as soon as possible because the threat of accidental DB2 is smaller (DB has smaller input windows).
- Tipper Jab literally sucks them in; tried it at 999%. Often making Jab 2 sourspot even if you tippered Jab 1. This has to be a brand new Sakurai angle for Jabs.
- None of our throws are weight based. This makes Dthrow consistent against all characters. I think all of the throws in this game no longer alter animation speed based on opponent weight. All of them are slowed-down for Ultimate in the first place.
- Jab has major range nerfs. I'm not even talking about vertical, but horizontal. No other moves seem to have any range nerfs (DB is all over the place, but it doesn't count – it's all new).
- DB-Up doesn't cover much above Marth like it looks like it does. Hits 2 and 3 absolutely don't hit people on BF platforms, even though the sword goes right through.
- Fsmash on BF platforms is still possible but still inconsistent.
- Marth says "Predictable" as one of his Counter Quotes! SO SASSY. I love this English Dub because of things like this. I heard it first as I countered a recovery, which made a Critical Hit sound by the way – all strong counter hits make the sound.
- Marth has a new crouch, looks more natural. I think it puts him at the same height.
- Dash Attack tipper has more knockback scaling; tipper can kill. Think Roy's Dash Attack, but maybe a little weaker.
- Shield Breaker's Headshot does more damage ONLY. Knockback is unaffected. This is similar to how the damage differences between normal aerials and short hop aerials also don't affect knockback.



Huh? I never knew that I ran into ZeRo again (I did it all the time in Smash 4, because location). Now I have to go look for it....

I'm not comfortable enough with myself in this game to be on Twitch yet. Cringing already. I'm just playing patiently while I figure things out. Sticking to Smash 4 fundamentals for now. But I got into Elite, so my opponents are better. Because of that, online is good so far.

Edit (not really an edit), found it
Oh yeah, that match. I suppose I looked alright. I knew he'd mention me. He knows me as a viewer (also moderator), but he forgot he's met me at a few Michigan tournaments.

Thanks for mentioning it. I had no way of knowing "jp" was ZeRo. What happened to Ketchup (Lol)?

Ah, don't be so hard on yourself, you did wonderfully, especially for such a new game. In fact, you're adjusting far better than I am at any of my Smash 4 timesinks. Dunno about Ketchup though.

Anyway, thanks for the data analysis. I was wondering why DBup wasn't killing... ever.

 

[SkylerOcon]

- Jab has major range nerfs. I'm not even talking about vertical, but horizontal. No other moves seem to have any range nerfs (DB is all over the place, but it doesn't count – it's all new).

Good to see somebody else noticed this. I'm coming in from playing mostly Melee/64 for the past few years. To me, it feels like Marth's range was nerfed overall. Was this a change in 4 that I missed, or is this new to Ultimate?

Thanks for your other info.

 

[Vipermoon]

I forgot jab locks in my random stuff:
- At the very least, the first two hits of Dancing Blade can jab lock
- Jab can jab lock again now that it's no longer a combo move

Good to see somebody else noticed this. I'm coming in from playing mostly Melee/64 for the past few years. To me, it feels like Marth's range was nerfed overall. Was this a change in 4 that I missed, or is this new to Ultimate?

Thanks for your other info.

I'm comparing to Smash 4. So range (which was buffed in the middle of Smash 4) is unchanged from the latest version of Smash 4 (except Jab).

For your point of view, really the only major difference is Fsmash. Melee's and even Brawl's were huge. Those would be too OP in Smash 4 and Ultimate.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Pretty sure this will be the wrong thread, but not totally sure where else best to ask.

I'm having issues vs Incineroar as Marth.

Everything is fine mostly - you can juggle him okay, and off stage is decent.

But how is the best way to get around his Side B?

 

[Vipermoon]

I've only been online twice and haven't come across Incin much, so I can't tell you. But thinking about it, have you already tried basic stuff like keeping your distance (into a wiff punish like Fair or DB), or rolling behind him? You could use the dash mechanics to fake out an approach, dash back, wiff punish Ftilt/Fsmash.

 

[SkylerOcon]

I'm comparing to Smash 4. So range (which was buffed in the middle of Smash 4) is unchanged from the latest version of Smash 4 (except Jab).

For your point of view, really the only major difference is Fsmash. Melee's and even Brawl's were huge. Those would be too OP in Smash 4 and Ultimate.

Thanks for the response. I'm not familiar enough with Ultimate's mechanics to make a judgment on balance, but I definitely miss the range -_-

 

[marth_t90]

the marth/lucina discord is obsessed with no-tech jablock setups and that just sums it up for me.

he feels really nerfed to me. i normally covered upthrow onto a platform with a Nair but as vipermoon said they j pop out of the hitstun its nowhere near consistent. same with DB3. also struggling with kill setups that arent straight fsmash reads or offstage edgeguarding

 

[Vipermoon]

Roy and Chrom can straight up spam Double Edge Dance (Dancing Blade) and it will always connect. And in the case of Roy, you can CONSISTENTLY get full-sweetpot on his DED. Doing the same damage as Marth's full tipper DB (which is a unicorn) and what seems like the same kill power. Like if you're between 80 and 100% and near the ledge, all Roy has to do is mash side B four times and you're dead.

While we're sitting here missing the fourth hit at 30%. By the way guys, ONLY do third input down into forward finisher. It'll connect a lot better this way; if you're lucky, you get the two-pixel tipper.

Nair not connecting correctly is super annoying. Nair1 simply does too much knockback. While again, Roy and Chrom are having a field day Nair-plane-ing everyone across the stage. And I know I said he has no range nerfs besides Jab (most characters in the game have Jab range nerfs), but Nair feels like Brawl and pre-patch Smash 4 range the more I use it. Actually, I'm certain now. Because I space it at the ledge and I know when it's supposed to reach in Smash 4 where it definitely will miss in Ultimate.

Combine all this with the bad buffering and jumping system the game has to offer, against the stupid good moves of other characters – and I'm having a harder time than I thought I would.

Also, until we figure out the new perfect shied, we're going to struggle against projectiles. Like, Marth specifically.

Basically, we quickly have to figure out our movement and our knockdown > tipper Fsmash setups or we're left in the dust in this meta.

 

[marth_t90]

being able to buffer techrolls on knockdown means any jablock setups are void. added to that db is so laggy only if ur staggering hits can u catch someone out with a non-true frametrap. some other characters moves are fully broken compared to our boy. even his height compared to lucina maybe puts him at a slight disadvantage when shuffl nair'ing characters. being a third impact player i think perfect shield is definitely th way forward.

unrelated: when was the first balance patch released on smash4 since its initial release?

 

[Vipermoon]

being able to buffer techrolls on knockdown means any jablock setups are void. added to that db is so laggy only if ur staggering hits can u catch someone out with a non-true frametrap. some other characters moves are fully broken compared to our boy. even his height compared to lucina maybe puts him at a slight disadvantage when shuffl nair'ing characters. being a third impact player i think perfect shield is definitely th way forward.

unrelated: when was the first balance patch released on smash4 since its initial release?

Marth and Lucina are the same height now. They no longer have the little differences they had in Smash 4. They were serious about the Echo thing.

 

[Nike.]

Gratz on modship Viper. Is it for the Marth forum?

 

[Vipermoon]

Gratz on modship Viper. Is it for the Marth forum?

Thank you, sir. Yes, Ultimate Marcina.

 

[Nike.]

Nitpicks about Marth:

-Nair is driving me crazy. The first hit tipper is constantly knocking them out of the move and the second hit ends up whiffing. It’s always been a part of Marth in every game and I’ve always secretly came to terms with it over the year but it’s happening almost every time for me in Ultimate. It’s extremely annoying. What makes it worse is that 1) It seems intentional and 2) Developers are doing that while also giving Chrome/Roy the exact same nair that connects without fail. I don’t understand what the benefit for this is. I’d be okay with it if it was a reward for the player hard SDI’ing up in anticipation but it’s occurring way to frequently for the DI to matter.

-Dancing Blade. Same effing story. Having the opponent knocked out of range. Not at an alarming rate but its noticeable. Again, Chrome/Roy get to use it freely and get the full combo every time. DB4 Down locking the opponent into their shield also really hurts. It completely removed the mind game aspect of it and the punish is guaranteed.

-DB1 coming out at frame 9. I hate it so much. The difference from previous versions of Marth is scary. Thankfully, being able to do tilts out of a dash has made the DB1 nerf pill a little easier to swallow. The complete redesign of dancing blade overall is just… uhg. That said, idk if they can ever patch DB1 to come out earlier. You’d have to assume all of the FE swordsman get that buff too. Chrom getting a buff that significant would elevate his already high rise.

-I don’t like the new jab. I absolutely agree with nerfing the Smash4 version due to all of the “Jab -> insert move” combos that they patched in. I get it. That’s not Marth’s game, he didn’t need it, and I’m glad that aspect is gone. However, the overall range with the new animation is a lot weaker. Feels like he’s swinging a dagger frantically. The old animation and range was fine and I miss it. Getting a tipper jab on a shield was a nice pressure option, that got weakened. I think the move is only likely to see play in the very early stages of this game. It can no longer be used as a spacing tool as it is but when you add parrying into the equation, it’s going to be punished nearly every time.

-I’m trying so hard to find use out of the new dash attack. Feels like Roy's but slightly weaker. The old one was so bad that I applaud the effort for at least TRYING to switch it up. That said, tilts out of dash are just superior in every way. Idk if it’s worth complaining about, not every character can have an all perfect move pool and I’m certainly happy to use my love dtilt anyway.

-Neutral B stalling momentum mid flight. Meh. It is what it is.

-Up throw nerf. I'm pretty sure Sakurai is trolling us. When the enemy is at 190% and I’m at 100%+ and he doesn’t die off the top, I get an entire room of smashers laughing at my despair. I legit wonder why he’s doing these horrible things to us.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

That’s about the extent of my frustrations. I still love the character and the new game, overall. There’s things about him that feel amazing and refreshing. There’s other stuff mid fight that I never dreamed of before that have quickly become staples in my game. Most of the new mechanics in Ultimate translate beautifully for him and I’m more happy about that then I am sad about what I listed above. He is once again a very solid and rewarding character with only a few weaknesses, which puts him imo right in the middle of the high tier cluster.

I’m very worried about what parrying is going to do to Marth, though. I’ve played people that are already consistently parrying my landing aerials and punishing them on command. I’m getting Brawl IC’s wartime flashbacks and it hasn’t been a week yet.

Also, Chrom exists.

 

[godogod]

I noticed that about dancing blade not connecting unlike Roy's also... Have you tried inside the hilt/sourspot?

 

[Vipermoon]

Nitpicks about Marth:

-Nair is driving me crazy. The first hit tipper is constantly knocking them out of the move and the second hit ends up whiffing. It’s always been a part of Marth in every game and I’ve always secretly came to terms with it over the year but it’s happening almost every time for me in Ultimate. It’s extremely annoying. What makes it worse is that 1) It seems intentional and 2) Developers are doing that while also giving Chrome/Roy the exact same nair that connects without fail. I don’t understand what the benefit for this is. I’d be okay with it if it was a reward for the player hard SDI’ing up in anticipation but it’s occurring way to frequently for the DI to matter.

-Dancing Blade. Same effing story. Having the opponent knocked out of range. Not at an alarming rate but its noticeable. Again, Chrome/Roy get to use it freely and get the full combo every time. DB4 Down locking the opponent into their shield also really hurts. It completely removed the mind game aspect of it and the punish is guaranteed.

-DB1 coming out at frame 9. I hate it so much. The difference from previous versions of Marth is scary. Thankfully, being able to do tilts out of a dash has made the DB1 nerf pill a little easier to swallow. The complete redesign of dancing blade overall is just… uhg. That said, idk if they can ever patch DB1 to come out earlier. You’d have to assume all of the FE swordsman get that buff too. Chrom getting a buff that significant would elevate his already high rise.

-I don’t like the new jab. I absolutely agree with nerfing the Smash4 version due to all of the “Jab -> insert move” combos that they patched in. I get it. That’s not Marth’s game, he didn’t need it, and I’m glad that aspect is gone. However, the overall range with the new animation is a lot weaker. Feels like he’s swinging a dagger frantically. The old animation and range was fine and I miss it. Getting a tipper jab on a shield was a nice pressure option, that got weakened. I think the move is only likely to see play in the very early stages of this game. It can no longer be used as a spacing tool as it is but when you add parrying into the equation, it’s going to be punished nearly every time.

-I’m trying so hard to find use out of the new dash attack. Feels like Roy's but slightly weaker. The old one was so bad that I applaud the effort for at least TRYING to switch it up. That said, tilts out of dash are just superior in every way. Idk if it’s worth complaining about, not every character can have an all perfect move pool and I’m certainly happy to use my love dtilt anyway.

-Neutral B stalling momentum mid flight. Meh. It is what it is.

-Up throw nerf. I'm pretty sure Sakurai is trolling us. When the enemy is at 190% and I’m at 100%+ and he doesn’t die off the top, I get an entire room of smashers laughing at my despair. I legit wonder why he’s doing these horrible things to us.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

That’s about the extent of my frustrations. I still love the character and the new game, overall. There’s things about him that feel amazing and refreshing. There’s other stuff mid fight that I never dreamed of before that have quickly become staples in my game. Most of the new mechanics in Ultimate translate beautifully for him and I’m more happy about that then I am sad about what I listed above. He is once again a very solid and rewarding character with only a few weaknesses, which puts him imo right in the middle of the high tier cluster.

I’m very worried about what parrying is going to do to Marth, though. I’ve played people that are already consistently parrying my landing aerials and punishing them on command. I’m getting Brawl IC’s wartime flashbacks and it hasn’t been a week yet.

Also, Chrom exists.

My reply to your nitpicks in order:

- I'm complaining about this too. Nair1 is doing too much knockback, but it may be something else too. Like hitbox sizes or Z-axis stuff. I can't wait to check out the data.

- As I predicted, one can "taste" the start-up. In regards to Roy: he can get full-sweetspot whenever he wants! This is knockback as strong as Marth's tipper and more damage per combo when it isn't killing. There is a solution. NEVER use side-3 EVER; use down-3 for the side and down finishers. Down-3 can setup tipper like it did in Smash 4 or you'll at least not be dropping the combo. Side-3 was useful in the demo, but not anymore. Down finisher locking shield combined with 18 frames more end lag eliminated any kind of safety. There is a reason it now does significantly more damage than the others – use it only if you're sure you'll get it. At least it combos itself and can't be easily SDI'd (Smash 4 failed on both).

- Nearly every good jab in the game has reduced range. Captain Falcon, Roy, Marth, etc. What I'm triggered by is the insane lack of vertical range. It's even worse than the sword trail shows. A landing tipper Uair at 0% into Jab has Jab missing... cutting right through them. I'm not worried about perfect shield + a punish. Jab 2 comes out far faster than it ever has.

- Nothing about the Dash Attack is new, really. The tipper can kill now; the animation seems different but it works the same. With most Dash Attacks seeing reduced end lag, Marth's lack of that buff makes zero sense. Oh well, dashing Ftilt it is.

- Huh. I failed to notice this yet. But hey, full hop into double jump buffered charged SB releases before hitting the ground still (for that disrespect).

- It's funny that this is a release nerf. It was unchanged in the demo. I get it, Marth was carried by it (especially with rage) in Smash 4, but they over-nerfed it in addition to nerfing rage. How is it that Marth does more knockback on all his throws than Roy... but not Uthrow? But at least he has his grab range back.

Marth players will need to figure out how to convert tech chases and jab locks into tipper Fsmash and Dsmash. They'll need to optimize Dancing Blade again. They'll need edgeguard setups. And they'll need to utilize that beautiful fox trot (Marth initial dash in this game is for some reason far faster than his run) and run cancels (and pivot cancels) to Ftilt/Dtilt pressure.

We cannot assume Marth will end up in high tier. Or even in the better half. There are too many good characters and lots of undiscovered movesets. We also don't know how good projectiles will be yet (I'm thinking/hoping they won't be too good, to Marth's benefit).

 

[godogod]

So it's fair to say Roy is better than Marth?

 

[Idon]

So it's fair to say Roy is better than Marth?

Eh, give it a month and a few tourneys. Then, we can sow his meta develops over time.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I’m wondering how you all are actually playing Marth in this game actually.

I believe he should be played differently to Smash 4, but I’m not sure of the best way yet.

Seeing as combos outside of Uair juggles and SH Nair combos are almost nonexistent, I’ve been using him in the traditional swordie manner of spacing tilts and aerials as safely as possible to get as much one off/free damage without giving the opponent oppurrunity to counterattack. I keep forgetting to mix up a Shield Breaker once my opponent is conditioned to shield, but I feel this is the ideal mixup.

How are you all using him? Anything I could be (or us all) doing better?

 

[Vipermoon]

In Smash 4, Marth is played by letting the opponent approach (if you can) and making them play your game at your pace. You capitalize most when you're able to put a lot of pressure on your opponent. In many ways, it's like that in Melee. And it's 100% like that in Brawl.

If I try to play that way (basically putting my mind in Smash 4 mode), I don't do as well. I agree that Marth has to be played differently and we're honestly still figuring it out.

I have seen that jumps are now safe. You can full hop so quickly and come down with über safe aerials. So we have to worry less about his air game.

His ground game needs less walking. Walking is almost useless in this game (unfortunate for the fastest walker). Smash 4 Marth needed to walk because his initial dash was the longest in the game (17 frames), meaning his dash to shields — a very powerful option in Smash 4 — were slow. Thankfully, dash to shields aren't that smart in this game with how dashes are cancelable, shields are laggier, shield stun is higher, grabs are weaker, and perfect shield works differently. In addition to that, everyone's dash to shield timing seems to be the same. Marth can now cancel his long dash into shield instead of waiting for that dash to end. His long and low-profile dash with the bonus of a heavily-buffed initial dash speed gives him probably the BEST dash dance in the game. So with all that... why should we be walk?

Jab is useless for anything except a quick option after a clank. Instead we'll use dash > Ftilt/Dtilt or our powerful aerials (all of them) and edgeguards. With how knockback works, there will be a lot of tech-chasing and jab locks. I think that specifically — tech-chasing and jab locks — will be how we take stocks outside out edgeguards. We'll rack damage by juggling using dash cancels and tilts.

That's how I envision future Marth gameplay. A moveset so extremely similar to Smash 4, yet the difference in how he plays will be greater than any other transition before it.