Social Can Ken Ken combo again? - Marth Smash Switch speculation thread

[marth_t90]

guess what im lowkey concerned abt is so many of his followups are now gone. its like playing vs floaties on melee except all 70 other characters are floaties

 

[Guljy]

guess what im lowkey concerned abt is so many of his followups are now gone. its like playing vs floaties on melee except all 70 other characters are floaties

I have not played the game much so I can't say but that could be unfamiliarity with the game. When I first began playing melee marth from smash 4 marth I had no idea how to use dancing blade worked and I had no combos I think it is just players either being new to the character or the engine, as for ike out ranging him that is already true in smash 4, he is just a lot slower. I hope this helped also if you want a better answer wait for vipermoon

 

[marth_t90]

thats rly helpful! not that i dont love melee with everything i have, i do. but im also just really excited for ultimate so it is as u say, a lack of familiarity cus im looking at this marth and not connecting the follow ups or moves together if that makes sense?

 

[Guljy]

thats rly helpful! not that i dont love melee with everything i have, i do. but im also just really excited for ultimate so it is as u say, a lack of familiarity cus im looking at this marth and not connecting the follow ups or moves together if that makes sense?

I believe that as more people learn how to use marth effectively given Ultimate's characteristics he will tend get more follow ups. Also, the overall mechanics such as lower landing lag benefit marth more than most characters making him I believe at least decent in ultimate

 

[Vipermoon]

The average percentage dealt with each exchange in Smash 4 has risen immensely since its launch. Ultimate will follow this same pattern I'm sure. Throw combos won't be as common, nor will aerial strings (they'll exist; I mean... they did in Brawl and that game has almost no hitstun). That is true. But landing aerials and grounded spikes (just now confirmed to be untechable, thanks GimR), as well as built-in character-specific combos (related to a projectile or other special move, such as what these guys have, to name a few) will all be more prominent instead.

So what Guljy said, if you were able to read it (settings > preferences > custom post text color, to change it permanently) , I think is very correct.

Edit: And right after I type this, a great video example is uploaded...

At about 2:10, you see landing Nair > full-hop Fair > Fair > double jump tipper Fair > death. The Ike input double jump after the Nair and side B after the first Fair, but Marth still caught him.

At about 2:50, you see a promising frame trap for a directional air dodge. Had the Marth moved to the right a little sooner after the missed Uair, he would've had that tipper Fsmash. See after a directional air dodge, you're stuck drifting in whatever direction you chose. And we know of course that no one can air dodge twice in this game.

 

[Guljy]

The average percentage dealt with each exchange in Smash 4 has risen immensely since its launch. Ultimate will follow this same pattern I'm sure. Throw combos won't be as common, nor will aerial strings (they'll exist; I mean... they did in Brawl and that game has almost no hitstun). That is true. But landing aerials and grounded spikes (just now confirmed to be untechable, thanks GimR), as well as built-in character-specific combos (related to a projectile or other special move, such as what these guys have, to name a few) will all be more prominent instead.

So what Guljy said, if you were able to read it (settings > preferences > custom post text color, to change it permanently) , I think is very correct.

Edit: And right after I type this, a great video example is uploaded...

At about 2:10, you see landing Nair > full-hop Fair > Fair > double jump tipper Fair > death. The Ike input double jump after the Nair and side B after the first Fair, but Marth still caught him.

At about 2:50, you see a promising frame trap for a directional air dodge. Had the Marth moved to the right a little sooner after the missed Uair, he would've had that tipper Fsmash. See after a directional air dodge, you're stuck drifting in whatever direction you chose. And we know of course that no one can air dodge twice in this game.

Is this text better, also do you think that marth will be changed before release or be aound the same as he is in the demo

 

[Vipermoon]

Is this text better, also do you think that marth will be changed before release or be aound the same as he is in the demo

Barely. What happened to the one you used at the bottom of page 3?

I think he will be exactly the same. Wait and see approach works well for Marth. That's what they did in Smash 4.

 

[Guljy]

Barely. What happened to the one you used at the bottom of page 3?

I think he will be exactly the same. Wait and see approach works well for Marth. That's what they did in Smash 4.

Sorry that I am so challenged when it comes go fonts is this better

 

[marth_t90]

The average percentage dealt with each exchange in Smash 4 has risen immensely since its launch. Ultimate will follow this same pattern I'm sure. Throw combos won't be as common, nor will aerial strings (they'll exist; I mean... they did in Brawl and that game has almost no hitstun). That is true. But landing aerials and grounded spikes (just now confirmed to be untechable, thanks GimR), as well as built-in character-specific combos (related to a projectile or other special move, such as what these guys have, to name a few) will all be more prominent instead.

So what Guljy said, if you were able to read it (settings > preferences > custom post text color, to change it permanently) , I think is very correct.

Edit: And right after I type this, a great video example is uploaded...

At about 2:10, you see landing Nair > full-hop Fair > Fair > double jump tipper Fair > death. The Ike input double jump after the Nair and side B after the first Fair, but Marth still caught him.

At about 2:50, you see a promising frame trap for a directional air dodge. Had the Marth moved to the right a little sooner after the missed Uair, he would've had that tipper Fsmash. See after a directional air dodge, you're stuck drifting in whatever direction you chose. And we know of course that no one can air dodge twice in this game.

this is all rly helpful thank u both sm. i think its starting to become clearer that this seems to be a different meta to melee entirely in terms of forcing the opponent into a defensive option and making the read as such. as is the case with that maybe frame trap. wud be interesting to see if they dodged left if you cud still recover to cover that option with say a jab or dtilt.

isit just me or do i think with the relative added floatieness of this game when coupled with directional laggy airdodge meaning alot more offstage edgeguards at all levels? cud defintiely see a dropzone fair leading to a airdodge thru the attack back twds stage being covered by say a reactive double jump bair for example

what i mean by that^^ is that th laggier directional air dodge wud lend itself to more brave offstage edgeguards wud it not?

 

[Guljy]

this is all rly helpful thank u both sm. i think its starting to become clearer that this seems to be a different meta to melee entirely in terms of forcing the opponent into a defensive option and making the read as such. as is the case with that maybe frame trap. wud be interesting to see if they dodged left if you cud still recover to cover that option with say a jab or dtilt.

isit just me or do i think with the relative added floatieness of this game when coupled with directional laggy airdodge meaning alot more offstage edgeguards at all levels? cud defintiely see a dropzone fair leading to a airdodge thru the attack back twds stage being covered by say a reactive double jump bair for example

what i mean by that^^ is that th laggier directional air dodge wud lend itself to more brave offstage edgeguards wud it not?

I agree there will be a way more edge guarding in this game when compared to smash 4, but I think still a bit less than melee, but I haven't played the game (Ultimate) yet so I can't say for sure, also no problem thanks for listening to me

 

[Locuan]

I'm already spotting some significant changes to overall gameplay. Those changes in landing lag and the dashes are definitely allowing for more aggression if that video is anything to go by. Not so much time left to get the game on our hands.

On that note, I need to figure out what to do for a controller. My hands are starting to hurt after extended periods. Considering the Hori arcade stick but that'll be such a drastic change lol.

 

[Vipermoon]

this is all rly helpful thank u both sm. i think its starting to become clearer that this seems to be a different meta to melee entirely in terms of forcing the opponent into a defensive option and making the read as such. as is the case with that maybe frame trap. wud be interesting to see if they dodged left if you cud still recover to cover that option with say a jab or dtilt.

isit just me or do i think with the relative added floatieness of this game when coupled with directional laggy airdodge meaning alot more offstage edgeguards at all levels? cud defintiely see a dropzone fair leading to a airdodge thru the attack back twds stage being covered by say a reactive double jump bair for example

what i mean by that^^ is that th laggier directional air dodge wud lend itself to more brave offstage edgeguards wud it not?

About that first paragraph, I think the ability to cancel a dash into anything will take some getting used to for the meta, but there is the potential to cover any directional air dodge if one is a faster character with fast moves (like Marth, especially with his range) because of dash cancel.

No one will purposely use directional air dodge off stage, unless they are trying to get the ledge with it. It's too laggy and they're almost guaranteed an SD. They'll use a normal air dodge, but since they can only use one (until they get hit), edge guarding is a little more rewarding. Not only that, knockback angle is more horizontal than vertical, so characters will have a hard time jumping over everything (skipping over the ledge), making them more susceptible to being edge-guarded below the ledge.

Marth already has a frame trap similar to the one you described. You run off Fair, they air dodge through, then you turnaround Dolphin Slash them and hope they don't stage tech. Stage teching will be easier in Ultimate will higher hitlag allowing everyone more time to react (for teching, DI, etc.), especially DS which seems to also have a higher hitlag modifier (nerf, but unconfirmed). But certainly the one air dodge limit will help this frame trap along in the that game.

The conclusion to that tournament posted above. The first take-away:

MARTH HAS COUNTER QUOTES AGAIN!

At about 5:47, he says something, though I can't figure out what. Possibly "Nice try" or "[something] try". What say ya'll?

At about 2:55, you can see how the new dash cancels make everybody's punish game a lot better. It isn't just for offense.

The Marth owned here, but let's remember: he's relatively unchanged from Smash 4 whereas the Ridley player had a completely new character to work with. And clearly the Marth player had more skill, which as a fundamentals character, almost guarantees the win. What we see from Marth in this video is nothing one can't do every day with our Smash 4 Marths.

And the Fair train in the beginning could have been air dodged. I don't know what the Ridley player was doing.

 

[Locuan]

That last stock on the first game, super all or nothing. I don't know if the Ridley could have waited prior to using his recovery but he was rather low at that point. Seems like they where having trouble with the directional air dodge though. It cost them quite a few stocks. It might be very likely that recovery must be treated similar to Melee somewhat. You still have regular air dodge ofc but don't know how it would affect in conjunction.

 

[marth_t90]

The conclusion to that tournament posted above. The first take-away:

MARTH HAS COUNTER QUOTES AGAIN!

At about 5:47, he says something, though I can't figure out what. Possibly "Nice try" or "[something] try". What say ya'll?

At about 2:55, you can see how the new dash cancels make everybody's punish game a lot better. It isn't just for offense.

The Marth owned here, but let's remember: he's relatively unchanged from Smash 4 whereas the Ridley player had a completely new character to work with. And clearly the Marth player had more skill, which as a fundamentals character, almost guarantees the win. What we see from Marth in this video is nothing one can't do every day with our Smash 4 Marths.

And the Fair train in the beginning could have been air dodged. I don't know what the Ridley player was doing.

is interesting to see Nair used consistently as the main Oos option

i feel more than anything the first people to utilise perfect shielding will b th ones to excel in this game. like parrying in third strike, it j opens up an entire new level of meta esp as it now freezes the other character as opposed to a powershield

like imagine the level of BAITING

legitimate use of wavedash here at 2mins 4s.

 

[Vipermoon]

I saw that and commented about it in the video. Didn't think it was specifically Marth-related.

I looked at the frame by frame. Total frames faster by a few frames than his roll dodge but has much less invincibility (6 frames total) than one. But I can see uses for it. Like to wavedash back (back rolls are laggy in this game) for movement only (not to dodge), sparingly. Or wavedash forward to move forward without turning around (forward rolls turn around), sparingly.

 

[uhmuzing]

I'm just hyped in general about the competitive potential for this game, and especially for Marth, buffed or nerfed or otherwise, he just looks fun again, such as in Melee and Brawl. Smash 4 debut he was just too laggy for me, and I started really getting into the business of adulting prior to his patch buffs so missed out on what he ended up becoming, but **** I've gotta make some time to get the Switch and back into Smash in December.

 

[marth_t90]

one of th better marths iv seen so far. their dash dancing looks rly smooth

 

[Vipermoon]

MARTH HAS COUNTER QUOTES AGAIN!

At about 5:47, he says something, though I can't figure out what. Possibly "Nice try" or "[something] try". What say ya'll?

Confirming that he does say "Nice try". Heard it in another video. I hope there's more than one. In Melee and Brawl he had three. Probably asking for too much.

And it turns out "Keep your eyes open" isn't the only taunt quote. Up taunt is "This is it". So optimal usage of taunts should be:
1. Up (before the match)
2. Down (during the match)
3. [sheaths his sword] Side (after the match)

Also, Marth has a new animation for his fastest walk! It looks more natural. But there are so many new animations (down to his idle stance) that it hardly matters.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I've also heard "My turn!" as a Counter quote. He also sometimes vocalises with a small "Huh" or what not when he jumps from the ground, like in Melee - Lucina also has this change. It remains to be seen whether he occasionally vocalises during Dolphin Slash like Lucina though.

Vipermoon - Have you noticed any more changes to Marth since the E3 build? I thought I once counted Dtilt having quicker interuptibility, but maybe that was me being hopeful.

Also, has Marth had any other noticeable changes in animations to his moveset? Any changes that help or hinder things like reach/range?

I also thought I saw in a video Marth stepping forward into his Shield Breaker, like in Brawl at one point, on a match on Pilotwings?

And is it just me, or does his victory theme seem sped up/slighty shorter at the end? It would make sense because victory themes in general are a lot quicker/snappier this time around, such as the new Zelda series one, and the Pokemon one being edited to be quicker at the end.

 

[Vipermoon]

I've also heard "My turn!" as a Counter quote. He also sometimes vocalises with a small "Huh" or what not when he jumps from the ground, like in Melee - Lucina also has this change. It remains to be seen whether he occasionally vocalises during Dolphin Slash like Lucina though.

Vipermoon - Have you noticed any more changes to Marth since the E3 build? I thought I once counted Dtilt having quicker interruptibility, but maybe that was me being hopeful.

Also, has Marth had any other noticeable changes in animations to his moveset? Any changes that help or hinder things like reach/range?

I also thought I saw in a video Marth stepping forward into his Shield Breaker, like in Brawl at one point, on a match on Pilotwings?

And is it just me, or does his victory theme seem sped up/slightly shorter at the end? It would make sense because victory themes in general are a lot quicker/snappier this time around, such as the new Zelda series one, and the Pokemon one being edited to be quicker at the end.

Oh good to know, I'll look out for these noises.

I have not noticed more changes since the demos.

So here are all the animation changes I've noticed.
- Idle stance; more natural
- Walks; maybe all but for sure fastest walk is different
- Spot dodge; completely new
- Back roll; more exaggerated/slower sliding at the end
- Full hop and short hop (forward/up); he's trying harder
- Double jump (forward/up); the front flip ends slower; looks far more natural
- Jabs; no vertical reach
- Dash Attack; sword comes more from the side than the bottom
- Dtilt; no sword wiggle right before frame 7; smoother overall like Smash 4 Roy Dtilt
- Dsmash; less sword trail
- All aerial landing lag animations are faster
- Shield Breaker; completely new cooldown
- Dancing Blade; all new, especially aerial
- Counter; slower, more natural cooldown (this move is actually 5 or 6 frames laggier)
- I don't remember, but his normal ledge getup and ledge getup attack may be different. Watch for it next time.
- Unfortunately Lucina, Chrom, and Roy received the same changes (in areas they're cloned). This was a great opportunity for more differentiation and they failed.

I don't think these animations will affect gameplay. Maybe Dash Attack but we can't know that yet.

I have not noticed Shield Breaker stepping forward grounded. Aerial still does though (so aerial will have more range, like Smash 4).

Oh his victory animations (end of match) are all new. Probably every character's are. Marth's are really nice. I think he has three.

 

[Idon]

First impressions by ZeRo.

 

[Vipermoon]

I heard japanese Marth (who received new lines by the same VA) and he's back to saying "Soku da!" during counter.

 

[Idon]

I heard japanese Marth (who received new lines by the same VA) and he's back to saying "Soku da!" during counter.

Oh that's sick.
Hopefully in a future patch, they'll let us change voice actors individually so I can hear it.

 

[Vipermoon]

https://twitter.com/Ruben_dal/status/1066502469692342273?s=09

This in-game tip says Shield Breaker to an opponents head does more damage. A comment below the tweet mentions the hitbox checks for head-hurtbox types. I don't know what this means for characters like Jiggs and Kirby and if this affects shields any differently.

We will need to choose how we angle Shield Breaker wisely depending on the character we're up against, the animation they're in, and if we're grounded or airborne. It's cool that Sakurai put a purpose behind its new angling ability.

Now the question is: Is this a nerf or buff? Meaning is Shield Breaker stronger on the head or weaker on the body [vs. Smash 4]?

 

[Idon]

https://twitter.com/Ruben_dal/status/1066502469692342273?s=09

This in-game tip says Shield Breaker to an opponents head does more damage. A comment below the tweet mentions the hitbox checks for head-hurtbox types. I don't know what this means for characters like Jiggs and Kirby and if this affects shields any differently.

We will need to choose how we angle Shield Breaker wisely depending on the character we're up against and the animation they're in. It's cool that Sakurai put a purpose behind its new angling ability.

Now the question is: Is this a nerf or buff? Meaning is Shield Breaker stronger on the head or weaker on the body [vs. Smash 4]?

Hopefully it's a buff.
Shield Breaker is already situational as it already is and making it so that it's even moreso would be a pain.

I wonder if this effect applies to Lucina as well. She is meant to be easier to handle than Marth so a move that requires this amount of precision seems uncharacteristic.

 

[Vipermoon]

Hopefully it's a buff.
Shield Breaker is already situational as it already is and making it so that it's even moreso would be a pain.

I wonder if this effect applies to Lucina as well. She is meant to be easier to handle than Marth so a move that requires this amount of precision seems uncharacteristic.

True, but if she can also angle SB, they properly gave this to her too. I wonder what other moves in this game check for hurtbox type, if any.

 

[Idon]

True, but if she can also angle SB, they properly gave this to her too. I wonder what other moves in this game check for hurtbox type, if any.

Hm, I know Shulk's backslash and Robin's Nosferatu checked which way the opponent was facing, but that's about it.
K. Rool also has a counter that only works in the direction he's facing so that's similar.
Nothing quite similar to SSBU shieldbreaker though.

Have to wonder what the purpose of tilting it down is for though. Perhaps it's for opponents that shield shift?

 

[marth_t90]

Hm, I know Shulk's backslash and Robin's Nosferatu checked which way the opponent was facing, but that's about it.
K. Rool also has a counter that only works in the direction he's facing so that's similar.
Nothing quite similar to SSBU shieldbreaker though.

Have to wonder what the purpose of tilting it down is for though. Perhaps it's for opponents that shield shift?

goin off stage edgeguarding maybe to catch drifts?

 

[Vipermoon]

Have to wonder what the purpose of tilting it down is for though. Perhaps it's for opponents that shield shift?

If you're in the air, you very well may need to angle it down to hit them at all. You're trying to poke heads so you won't input it too late – but, at the same time, angle down so you don't miss.

Otherwise, crouching or characters that run low.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

https://twitter.com/Ruben_dal/status/1066502469692342273?s=09

This in-game tip says Shield Breaker to an opponents head does more damage. A comment below the tweet mentions the hitbox checks for head-hurtbox types. I don't know what this means for characters like Jiggs and Kirby and if this affects shields any differently.

We will need to choose how we angle Shield Breaker wisely depending on the character we're up against, the animation they're in, and if we're grounded or airborne. It's cool that Sakurai put a purpose behind its new angling ability.

Now the question is: Is this a nerf or buff? Meaning is Shield Breaker stronger on the head or weaker on the body [vs. Smash 4]?

On training mode:

Uncharged Tipper SB on the head deals 12.4%, 10.8% on the body. (9 and 10.3 base)

Full Charge Tipper is 33.1% on the head and 28.8% on the body. (24 and 27.6 base)

Keep in mind the above values are with the 1v1 damage modifiers, the base amounts for more than 2 players are in parenthesis.

I don't know the smash4 numbers but hopefully this helps answer if it was a buff or nerf.

 

[Vipermoon]

On training mode:

Uncharged Tipper SB on the head deals 12.4%, 10.8% on the body. (9 and 10.3 base)

Full Charge Tipper is 33.1% on the head and 28.8% on the body. (24 and 27.6 base)

Keep in mind the above values are with the 1v1 damage modifiers, the base amounts for more than 2 players are in parenthesis.

I don't know the smash4 numbers but hopefully this helps answer if it was a buff or nerf.

Thanks!!! Certainly that's a buff in damage. Body damage = Smash 4, so head is a buff. It's possible knockback was nerfed very slightly to accommodate this because it (the tipper) was already hella strong Smash 4. But we won't know that until we see knockback values.

Can you find out if characters like Kirby are heads or bodies?

 

[Chibi-Chan]

Thanks!!! Certainly that's a buff in damage. Body damage = Smash 4, so head is a buff. It's possible knockback was nerfed very slightly to accommodate this because it (the tipper) was already hella strong Smash 4. But we won't know that until we see knockback values.

Can you find out if characters like Kirby are heads or bodies?

Tested as soon as I saw this. Doing SB normally does body damage on Kirby, angling it up makes it miss since Kirby is so short. Same thing for Puff and Pacman (even angled up vs pacman).

A few more test on random other characters reveals that some are too tall to hit with headshot SB from standing position. I couldn't do it on Ryu or Bayo so this technique is really situational.

 

[Vipermoon]

Tested as soon as I saw this. Doing SB normally does body damage on Kirby, angling it up makes it miss since Kirby is so short. Same thing for Puff and Pacman (even angled up vs pacman).

A few more test on random other characters reveals that some are too tall to hit with headshot SB from standing position. I couldn't do it on Ryu or Bayo so this technique is really situational.

That's unfortunate. A huge factor in its usefulness will be what the game does when it hits both a body and head hurtbox (this will happen A LOT). Either they'll use the hurtboxes IDs (like hitboxes have, such as how Marth's sourspot beats his tipper in areas of overlap) as the headshot priority rank or the Shield Breaker hitboxes will be directed on which to prioritize. Either way, something has to decide. Again, we'll need game files.

Thanks for testing this!

 

[Guljy]

I have heard that tipper is larger but less generous and vice versa, do any of you know which is true

 

[Vipermoon]

I have heard that tipper is larger but less generous and vice versa, do any of you know which is true

If it's larger, how can it be less generous?

Anyway, there's no way to tell any of this without looking at the hitbox parameters.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

Yeah dunno, Tipper looks just as difficult as it is on smash4. It's not vert forgiving at all.

 

[Guljy]

If it's larger, how can it be less generous?

Anyway, there's no way to tell any of this without looking at the hitbox parameters.

I meant generous in terms of damage , sorry should have specified

 

[Vipermoon]

I meant generous in terms of damage , sorry should have specified

Ah okay. We do know base damages for both sourspots and tippers are unchanged.

 

[Idon]

Oh here's some decent gameplay.

 

[Vipermoon]

Oh here's some decent gameplay.

This video is a great frame data tool. I found a Marth change since the demo. Marth can act on frame 40 of DB1 (39 total frames). Smash 4 is 41 total frames and Ultimate Demo was 43 total frames. Otherwise, I confirmed the rest is the same.

We never talked about this, but do you guys know Counter has around 5 frames more end lag? Most counters in this game are laggier.