Can Ken Ken combo again? - Marth Smash Switch speculation thread

PF9

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#43
I would have preferred a British actor for Marth personally. I like sword wielders better when they're portrayed by Brits.
 

Vipermoon

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#45
Not Marth but Lucina and Kirby both have a straight SB.

Kirby [bottom row, second from the right]
Lucina

I think it stands to reason that Marth does as well.
Didn't know about the Kirby. However, Kirby's may not have been changed yet or this was recorded before it did. Lucina may be to differentiate.

We need something else... FOUND IT!


A straight SB here. While it's also possible here that this was recorded before the change, I'm going to assume it's adjustable now. But can we do Down? And can Down hit someone hanging from the ledge? I guess we'll find out.

Uses for Up:
– Break a shield while off-stage more safety (less of your hurtbox above the ledge).
– Better chance of hitting a shield from a Short Hop Rising SB when opponent is on a higher platform (Smashville, Town, Dreamland).
 

Bowserboy3

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#46
I am more interested in seeing if Marth's landing lag has changed. To be honest, I've seen multiple people saying their characters landing lags look a lot less laggy, and I gotta say, I saw a standout with Marth. His Dair looks like it can't have 24 frames like in Smash 4.

I first noticed big landing lag changes when I saw Samus's Fair in the Invitational the other day. No way on this earth did it have anything remotely close to 26 frames of landing lag.

Anyone seen anything more of Marth's?

Not an amazing video. but we see a huge deal of Marth's moveset in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6jVBXONqfA
 

Bowserboy3

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#49
So I'm hearing rumors that Marth's tippers function more so like they did in Melee and not like in sm4sh, anyone know anything about this?
In what way? The sweetspot taking more priority? Or tippers being generally weaker (in comparison to Smash 4)?

Ngl, I did see instances with Fsmash in particular that made me think "that looked like it was a sourspot" when it apparently tippered.
 
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Idon

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#50
In what way? The sweetspot taking more priority? Or tippers being generally weaker (in comparison to Smash 4)?

Ngl, I did see instances with Fsmash in particular that made me think "that looked like it was a sourspot" when it apparently tippered.
I blame it on those wonky hit physics Smash U is running. It's really messing with my perception on how strong or weak moves are.
 

Atticade

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#51
In what way? The sweetspot taking more priority? Or tippers being generally weaker (in comparison to Smash 4)?

Ngl, I did see instances with Fsmash in particular that made me think "that looked like it was a sourspot" when it apparently tippered.
Yea I heard about the sweet spot priority, has anybody actually been able to confirm this or are we just kinda guessing based on regular gameplay?
 
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#52
Aesthetically speaking i've been making comparisons between Sm4sh and Ultimate Marth, of course his design is still the same but he has several new details, an image for easier comparison:

Marth Ultimate - Sm4sh comparison.png


You can spot his hair is fluffier and a bit messy compared to sm4sh perfect hair. tiara is different, pauldrons have a dark blue shade and different ornaments, he has two belts, the cape is lighter, gauntlets now have belts, Falchion's hilt is slightly different, now it looks closer to canon games and the scabbard too.
All are small changes, but he looks more "battle ready' while keeping the noble style he always had, definitely a favorite of mine along with his FE Heroes artwork (the one made by Kozaki).
 
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#53
Aesthetically speaking i've been making comparisons between Sm4sh and Ultimate Marth, of course his design is still the same but he has several new details, an image for easier comparison:

View attachment 148418

You can spot his hair is fluffier and a bit messy compared to sm4sh perfect hair. tiara is different, pauldrons have a dark blue shade and different ornaments, he has two belts, the cape is lighter, gauntlets now have belts, Falchion's hilt is slightly different, now it looks closer to canon games and the scabbard too.
All are small changes, but he looks more "battle ready' while keeping the noble style he always had, definitely a favorite of mine along with his FE Heroes artwork (the one made by Kozaki).
As an art enthusiast,I can already see Smash switch Marth s character design in that image bleeding with more personality compared to smash four Marth's as well as with other chAracters i saw. Absolutely exquisite.
 

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#54
So I'm hearing rumors that Marth's tippers function more so like they did in Melee and not like in sm4sh, anyone know anything about this?
In what way? The sweetspot taking more priority? Or tippers being generally weaker (in comparison to Smash 4)?

Ngl, I did see instances with Fsmash in particular that made me think "that looked like it was a sourspot" when it apparently tippered.
Yea I heard about the sweet spot priority, has anybody actually been able to confirm this or are we just kinda guessing based on regular gameplay?
In Melee, the only moves where the tipper hitbox out-prioritized the others [at the point of overlap] were: Usmash, Uair, Dair. In Brawl, it was just Usmash and Uair. In Smash 4... nothing. In SSBU... nothing.

You can easily tell. Those moves I mentioned from Melee are extremely easy to tipper. Compare "tipper" Dair from Melee to Brawl. Or how tipper Uair is one of the hardest tippers in Smash 4 Marth, yet in Melee/Brawl it's literally far more difficult to avoid tipper Uair.

So I'm not sure what that person meant when they claimed they function like Melee. I'd just ignore it. That said, I will say many tippers are noticeably weaker [than 1.1.7 Marth]. These include tipper Usmash (wish they'd compensate with less end lag, but no), tipper Fair, tipper Uair. I haven't seen enough of the others at kill percents.

Melee had strong tippers (Dsmash, Utilt, even Usmash/Fsmash), but also weak ones (all of the aerials). Brawl weakened the ground tippers and strengthened the aerials. Smash 4 Marth needed patches to get to the aerial strength of Brawl Marth, but already had similar ground strength.
 
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Idon

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#55
OK, so Marth has a new forward throw animation.
https://youtu.be/2VtjEr6YMlc?t=1m56s
You can see it here, though it is a bit obscured.
https://youtu.be/HQONtwfe_X4?t=21s
Here, they talk about it, but don't show it.

From what I can gather, it seems to be either a shoulder bash or an iaijitsu style slash forwards. It's hard to tell because it's a bit obscured by Marth's cape and the gratuitous smoke effects.
 

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#56
Right. Marth has plenty of new animations. Fthrow could also be a hilt attack (your second link does show it at the very end, you said it does not). I certainly know it isn't comboing; a shame, because Fthrow can be quite an easy start to a zero-to-death even in Smash 4. It also seems this Fthrow is more reactable, and therefore easy to DI. In Smash 4, incorrect DI on Fthrow is how we got combos.

His Counter cooldown animation is also different. So is the SB cooldown. Obviously DB is all new. Dash Attack is all new. Jab and Dtilt are a little different. Even his idle animation is different, the way he bounces on his toes and such. This game did not get lazy with animations, which are hard work.

It's amazing how little hitstun there is in this game. Even with just 13 frames of landing lag on Dair, Salem still couldn't combo Dair to Uair.
Also after both Dairs, Zelda kept footstooling out and get this, using frame by frame, Zelda was granted invincibility on the footstools! There's no way that's in Smash 4.

Anyone see any Uthrow kills? I haven't seen any and I wonder if it's still strong. Rage Uthrow carried Marth in Smash 4.

Edit: EWW! Huge nerf to DS. The sweetspot does far more hitlag now, so people have time to react and DI correctly (on stage) or stage tech (off stage).
 
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Guljy

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#58
Right. Marth has plenty of new animations. Fthrow could also be a hilt attack (your second link does show it at the very end, you said it does not). I certainly know it isn't comboing; a shame, because Fthrow can be quite an easy start to a zero-to-death even in Smash 4. It also seems this Fthrow is more reactable, and therefore easy to DI. In Smash 4, incorrect DI on Fthrow is how we got combos.

His Counter cooldown animation is also different. So is the SB cooldown. Obviously DB is all new. Dash Attack is all new. Jab and Dtilt are a little different. Even his idle animation is different, the way he bounces on his toes and such. This game did not get lazy with animations, which are hard work.

It's amazing how little hitstun there is in this game. Even with just 13 frames of landing lag on Dair, Salem still couldn't combo Dair to Uair.
Also after both Dairs, Zelda kept footstooling out and get this, using frame by frame, Zelda was granted invincibility on the footstools! There's no way that's in Smash 4.

Anyone see any Uthrow kills? I haven't seen any and I wonder if it's still strong. Rage Uthrow carried Marth in Smash 4.

Edit: EWW! Huge nerf to DS. The sweetspot does far more hitlag now, so people have time to react and DI correctly (on stage) or stage tech (off stage).
You clearly know a lot of what you are talking about, so do you think Marth will still be top 20 or no, and do you think he will be overall worse than in SSB4
 

BlazeRelease

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#60
Marths new art makes him seem slightly shorter, or maybe it's just my eyes... I wonder if they changed his height, or if they changed the height of other characters in general.
 
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#61
Marths new art makes him seem slightly shorter, or maybe it's just my eyes... I wonder if they changed his height, or if they changed the height of other characters in general.
I think it's mostly a placebo type thing.

If I had to guess, I'd say it's because his belts overlap less than in his Smash 4 art, so they take up more of his torso, making him look shorter since more surface area is covered by the belts.
 

Vipermoon

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#62
You clearly know a lot of what you are talking about, so do you think Marth will still be top 20 or no, and do you think he will be overall worse than in SSB4
Marth was one of the few characters that were nerfed. Sakurai's team clearly treated him like a top tier on their initial balancing campaign. There's been a significantly nerfed Jab, DB, DS, kill power, and damage.

The other characters did not generally see a reduction in damage, which meant the 1 v. 1 damage bonus made them look like powerhouses. Marth however, does comparatively less damage to his major damage-racking tools. This would be his aerials, DB, and the lack of Jab combos. Marth also lost: throw combos and aerial strings – two other major damage-racking tools – but other charactets saw those too.
Knockback reduction is seen in Fair (and possibly/probably more aerials), Usmash, and DB so far.
To summarize, nerfs were made to his main approach options, damage-racking tools, and kill options.

HOWEVER, the game changes favor him more than other characters. In the last three games, Marth had a garabge initial dash length/dash to shield, dash turnaround, and dash stopping. The first one made him historically weak to projectiles. Because of these, we had to do things like resort to walking, which was good but had slow acceleration – so no boost mobility there. Assuming everyone's initial dash now is uniform like rumored, these dash changes benefit Marth far more.

Then there's the landing lag. Marth's aerials have always been fast, disjointed, and long-range. The nearly halved landing lag from most characters, including Marth, highly benefit Marth – giving him free reign in the air (like Melee/Brawl) and powerful approach and pressure tools. This is primarily why all the top players that have tried the game said that they like him.

The most important thing to mention is that Marth is a simple character that is almost unchanged from Smash 4 when you look into the grand scheme of things. For those that used Marth, all that skill will transfer. For those with good spacing and funamentals, it's easy to pick him up. For those last two points, the fact that Marth's design always fit competive Smash, and the dash changes...
I think he's not as good as Smash 4 Marth
But I think top 20 is just barely possible.

I'm guessing this means that if they DI correctly Marth can be punished for using DS?
At low percent, if they DI down and tech roll inwards, I think he could be punished.
 
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Freelance Spy

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#63
But I think top 20 is just barely possible.


At low percent, if they DI down and tech roll inwards, I think he could be punished.
I'm not so sure, given time and patches, sure, but I feel like this game is going to be like the early days of 4 Marth. As far as disjoints go, it looks like other characters will be able to beat him out again. Even non disjoint characters have similar range to Marth, sonic is likely going to suck to fight. Imagine a Shulk with lagless aerials...

Hopefully we have some combos, more hopefully I want dair to actually work this time.
 

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#64
I'm not so sure, given time and patches, sure, but I feel like this game is going to be like the early days of 4 Marth. As far as disjoints go, it looks like other characters will be able to beat him out again. Even non disjoint characters have similar range to Marth, sonic is likely going to suck to fight. Imagine a Shulk with lagless aerials...

Hopefully we have some combos, more hopefully I want dair to actually work this time.
You make good points. I guess with how aggressive this game is, yet without Melee's hitstun (or anything close to it], it's hard to know what will happen. To your comments I'll say: all that you mentioned is possible and I did guess 20 at best – so it could be a lot worse. But also don't underestimate how freaky smooth Marth is with lagless aerials, a dash dance & dash approach, in a package that our Smash 4 Marcina skill will transfer to.
 
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Freelance Spy

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#65
But also don't underestimate how freaky smooth Marth is with lagless aerials, a dash dance & dash approach, in a package that our Smash 4 Marcina skill will transfer to.
Honestly, with the return of dashdance+lagless aerials, I think it'd be better to play some Melee before this comes out. I'm dropping 4 as of now.

Time to get good at aggro marth neutral.

Also, hey vipermoon, long time no see.
 

Locuan

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#66
At low percent, if they DI down and tech roll inwards, I think he could be punished.
Hm, that could be an issue. At least in an opponents mid to high percents it should still work as a "get off me" tool out of shield. We will see how it is by games launch or on launch.
the return of dashdance+lagless aerials
Once I saw it was returning I could not contain my excitement. Really looking forward to play a bunch of characters due to this alone.
 
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Shaya

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#67
I have this feeling like the S4 maintenance team (balance patchers) and Sakurai's S5 ventures were somewhat separate.
Marth and Sheik both look like they have numbers comparable to release S4. Sheik's bair, up air and bouncing fish being strong (I choked a little when I saw Sheik's up air kill at 90%), Marth's DB start up worsening and seemingly low knockback values (damage) on a lot of the tools Marth got buffed (also jab being a tech chase angle rather than a follow up tool again, like the start of S4).

Could be that the main focus was the game's new mechanics/design paradigm (blanket landing lag reductions), thus scripts of character's movesets have likely been copied over.
This bodes poorly in some ways; a lot of S4 gripes I have is the choppy/obviously lazy work that occurred for many characters from Brawl to S4 (i.e. animation tweaks done by scripts rather than changing model data, resulting in jagged movements and unforeseen interactions; e.g. animations that technically last 60 frames yet can be interacted out of faster but result in not being able to grab ledges or regain aerial momentum). If marth's DB is literally just "half animation speed" again (it was buffed to be 2/3rds speed when it was buffed) from it's original four frame start up animation IN BRAWL (10 years old) I'm going to be peeved.

BUT DASH TO TIPPER DOWN TILT THOUGH
 
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#68
I can't be the only one that's not excited for Marth now gaining an English voice actor? I always liked that about him. I hope they're options that allow you to choose between different voice tracks individually across the entire cast. Like you could set Marth and Roy's voices to Japanese and then leave everyone else with their English voice lines.
 

Ffamran

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#69
Could be that the main focus was the game's new mechanics/design paradigm (blanket landing lag reductions), thus scripts of character's movesets have likely been copied over.
I think that's the case and justifiably so if you take Sakurai's absolute word of it and I hate that because we don't know what the other members of the development team was thinking: "First, I was faced with a decision: create a completely new game system, or build off of pre-existing ones. I went with the latter; had I not, we might have ended up with only a third of the fighters we have now. Some people might still end up preferring an earlier title, but I decided to put that thought aside for later and focus on the more important tasks at hand." From here: https://sourcegaming.info/2018/06/20/smash-is-special-part-1-sakurais-famitsu-column-vol-557/.

There are 68? characters confirmed for the game, some of whom have to be rebuilt in some way like Snake and Wolf who you could probably reuse stuff from Brawl, but it would be really noticeable, and it seems most characters are getting updated, reworked animations and sometimes moves which adds to that. For instance, Pikachu didn't need a new Nair, but got one anyway. They're going to reuse assets and copy and paste frame data, but they chose to make a game with so many characters. The Tekken team did this for Tekken 7 and I think the entire series as a whole since people have complained about certain animations being from the early games and audio like a lot of characters voices are still the same and KoF XIII was built off of KoF XII which also had the special case of extremely detailed, expensive, and time-consuming sprite work.

It's just going to depend on what the released product looks like and what they do with it, patches, after it's released. At the moment, some of the stuff looks like it's going in the right direction like Zelda while others seem a bit terrifying to say the least like Ike's aerials are obscene and Bowser looks fast. Sure, he gets hit a lot, but dude's like a speeding train in this game. Then again, this is the same game whose developers decided Falco's Dair in Melee was a perfectly good idea while other Dair spikes weren't on his level, decided his Fair in Brawl and launch Smash 4 should have 33 landing because we can't a dysfunctional move have decent landing lag, and kept increasing his Blaster recovery, but completely ignoring why it had low recovery in the first place. And now it has around 28 recovery frames as of the E3 demo. I'm expecting it to jump back to 48 recovery frames when the game's released.
 

Vipermoon

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#70
Hm, that could be an issue. At least in an opponents mid to high percents it should still work as a "get off me" tool out of shield. We will see how it is by games launch or on launch.

Once I saw it was returning I could not contain my excitement. Really looking forward to play a bunch of characters due to this alone.
Actually I forgot about the insane gravity on horizontal knockback in this game. They wouldn't even have to DI down to be able to tech immediately.

I have this feeling like the S4 maintenance team (balance patchers) and Sakurai's S5 ventures were somewhat separate.
Marth and Sheik both look like they have numbers comparable to release S4. Sheik's bair, up air and bouncing fish being strong (I choked a little when I saw Sheik's up air kill at 90%), Marth's DB start up worsening and seemingly low knockback values (damage) on a lot of the tools Marth got buffed (also jab being a tech chase angle rather than a follow up tool again, like the start of S4).

Could be that the main focus was the game's new mechanics/design paradigm (blanket landing lag reductions), thus scripts of character's movesets have likely been copied over.
This bodes poorly in some ways; a lot of S4 gripes I have is the choppy/obviously lazy work that occurred for many characters from Brawl to S4 (i.e. animation tweaks done by scripts rather than changing model data, resulting in jagged movements and unforeseen interactions; e.g. animations that technically last 60 frames yet can be interacted out of faster but result in not being able to grab ledges or regain aerial momentum). If marth's DB is literally just "half animation speed" again (it was buffed to be 2/3rds speed when it was buffed) from it's original four frame start up animation IN BRAWL (10 years old) I'm going to be peeved.

BUT DASH TO TIPPER DOWN TILT THOUGH
The thing about Jab 2 is that it most likely retains its 45° angle, but that due to the low knockback I mentioned in the previous quote, it became a tech chase angle. But so will most things in SSBU, all due to the knockback. They want to focus on tech chases, and they even made the spinning animation techable to enable this.
Jab 1 simply followed most of the jabs in this game (another blanket change) in that it tries really hard to keep the opponent grounded (could it be a spike angle, or a new special angle?), so it will have very little hitstun (explaining why Jab 2 input is even sooner). And with the much faster jumpsquat, combos would be too good with the old Jab 1 in a game with heavily nerfed combos.

The DB story is unfortunate. It has become my Smash 4 life, that move is so broken. It begins my advantage state, up and down finishers give me follow-ups, it's a sizeable portion of my damage-racking, it is my dash attack and OoS, and it even takes stocks. The way they nerfed it with the damage, knockback, coverage/range, and endlag/follow-ups is insanely heavy-handed. Not even mentioning the worst of it all – the start-up nerf. Why the start-up nerf if dashing is so encouraged? After you already nerfed all other aspects of the move?
And then, each hit does so little knockback in a game with reduced hitstun that there will be no delay tactics, destroying its depth.
Just as bad as everything else, it's so fast no one can see what's happening – so it's ugly. And the new animations themselves make DB look like less of a dance. Cross Slash looks more like a dance!

But I will criticize a certain comment you made. Yes, numerous mechanic/design/blanket changes have been made to make the game look and feel far different. However, that does not mean they didn't redesign numerous animations in even the most random areas. I have never seen so many new animations in a Smash game. They're so obvious as to be constantly apparent in all gameplay videos, and that is precisely why I respect this game.

Edit: Just had a realization... depending on shield stun mechanics in the new game, DB4-down's quicker multi-hits may lock opponents in shield!! Guaranteed punish on Marth!
 
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Locuan

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#71
Just had a realization... depending on shield stun mechanics in the new game, DB4-down's quicker multi-hits may lock opponents in shield!!
Makes me wonder how Perfect Shielding would affect this. Could the last hit be parried? Considering it's on shield release now it could be a possibility.
 
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Vipermoon

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#72
Makes me wonder how Perfect Shielding would affect this. Could the last hit be parried? Considering it's on shield release now it could be a possibility.
Sure, any multihit could be parried as long as one knows the timing/how many hits there are. This new DB4-down happens fast though. Check out this recent video from Rage in Japan:


I have it starting at :30. See how Mega Man has enough time to roll behind Marth after shielding the last hit of DB4-down and to punish with seemingly plenty of time to spare? That's an easy Utilt from Mega Man.
 

Locuan

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#73
See how Mega Man has enough time to roll behind Marth after shielding the last hit of DB4-down and to punish with seemingly plenty of time to spare?
Ah definitely. Basically the opponent must react quickly to be able to parry DB4's last hit due to it's new speed. The perfect shield changes do look great as well.
 
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#76
Ah I dont mean to be negative, but I think, that voice ruined his charisma as japanese. English voice could have been much more different, limitless variety, like how great ike is. After how likable marth was (he was charismatic despite the fact that we didnt know much about him) This is bland for me.
 
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#77
Ah I dont mean to be negative, but I think, that voice ruined his charisma as japanese. English voice could have been much more different, limitless variety, like how great ike is. After how likable marth was (he was charismatic despite the fact that we didnt know much about him) This is bland for me.
Switch your game to Japanese? It'll work wonders on Fox/Falco as well.

Do you REALLY need to read the menus?
 

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#78
Ah I dont mean to be negative, but I think, that voice ruined his charisma as japanese. English voice could have been much more different, limitless variety, like how great ike is. After how likable marth was (he was charismatic despite the fact that we didnt know much about him) This is bland for me.
You've clearly not heard any of his lines from either Fire Emblem Heroes or Fire Emblem Warriors then. If you've played either Shadow Dragon or New Mystery, and understand how Marth speaks, and his ideals, you can really tell Yuri does a good job at projecting this through his voice acting.

To be honest (and not saying you are one of these), the only actual complaints I've seen from people about Marth's English voice are ones who know him only as a Smash character, and haven't played any of the Fire Emblem games, let alone the ones he's dubbed in.

Give it time. I'll be totally honest - when I first heard his voice in S.T.E.A.M., it didn't click with me (that said, I still stand by the thought that these are still his weakest lines overall), but by Fates, I had really come to appreciate it.
 
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#79
I love the series, played them in hard like 8 times each but its only restricted to elibe and tellius, they were the most memorable to me and I gave up playing fire emblem after awakening :/ . Played shadow dragon once and dont remember the characters and map design well. So I approached marth from its appearence in smash. They did a very good job with making him likable, he looked cooler and more elegant in each smash(from his confident feminine tone or his animations or the sound his falchion makes) and didnt feel generic (while representing our very generic lord). I was like NOOOO when I heard him saying "keep your eyes open". That one line was enough for me but I will trust and wait ^^
 
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Bowserboy3

Asking mum how to talk to a lady
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Bowserboy3
#80
I love the series, played them in hard like 8 times each but its only restricted to elibe and tellius, they were the most memorable to me and I gave up playing fire emblem after awakening :/ . Played shadow dragon once and dont remember the characters and map design well. So I approached marth from its appearence in smash. They did a very good job with making him likable, he looked cooler and more elegant in each smash(from his confident feminine tone or his animations or the sound his falchion makes) and didnt feel generic (while representing our very generic lord). I was like NOOOO when I heard him saying "keep your eyes open". That one line was enough for me but I will trust and wait ^^
See, "Keep your eyes open!" is exactly the sort of thing Marth would say.

Marth cares deeply for his allies and friends, more than anything. Victory means nothing to him if it means losing somebody along the way.

Hence, reminding his allies to "Keep your eyes open!" is exactly the sort of thing he'd say.

I've grown to dislike "Minna, miteite kure!" for this exact reason. It translates into something along the lines of "Everyone, watch (over?) me!".

Marth would give his life for his own friends and comrades. Which defeats the point of asking them to, watch out for him, so to speak. He's more interested in them surviving through the battle, not him. So he's telling them to "Keep your eyes open!".

I'm personally waiting to hear all of his victory quotes. I want to see if they do a better job at following this trend.

Voice acting isn't just about making characters sound cool. It's about projecting the CHARACTER - the person - through said voice. When creating a new character and voice from scratch, it's easy to merge these into one, but when you already have an established character, and then give them a voice, it becomes easy to get things lost in translation, so to speak.
 
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