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Social Can Ken Ken combo again? - Marth Smash Switch speculation thread

Idon

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See, "Keep your eyes open!" is exactly the sort of thing Marth would say.

Marth cares deeply for his allies and friends, more than anything. Victory means nothing to him if it means losing somebody along the way.

Hence, reminding his allies to "Keep your eyes open!" is exactly the sort of thing he'd say.

I've grown to dislike "Minna, miteite kure!" for this exact reason. It translates into something along the lines of "Everyone, watch (over?) me!".

Marth would give his life for his own friends and comrades. Which defeats the point of asking them to, watch out for him, so to speak. He's more interested in them surviving through the battle, not him. So he's telling them to "Keep your eyes open!".

I'm personally waiting to hear all of his victory quotes. I want to see if they do a better job at following this trend.

Voice acting isn't just about making characters sound cool. It's about projecting the CHARACTER - the person - through said voice. When creating a new character and voice from scratch, it's easy to merge these into one, but when you already have an established character, and then give them a voice, it becomes easy to get things lost in translation, so to speak.
I'd agree, except "Keep your eyes open" is best used when his comrades are on the battlefield, as a sort of warning to remain vigilant. In absentee, it sounds like he's either showboating and telling the audience to watch him or taunting the enemy because they were being neglectful.

"Everyone, watch over me" fits because it shows that he gets his strength from others and he places great trust in him even in their absence. In Smash, his comrades aren't here with him, so the best he can ask for them is to be watched over by them and be given inner strength their presence.
 
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Freelance Spy

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I've always wanted an English Marth option. But I has always thought it'd be a toggle.
 

Caravan of Noobs

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Since Ultimate looks like it would be the game about giving the fans options like the stage hazard toggle it'd be surprising if there isn't a toggle between languages for individual characters.
 

Idon

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Since Ultimate looks like it would be the game about giving the fans options like the stage hazard toggle it'd be surprising if there isn't a toggle between languages for individual characters.
Smash is a franchise that takes... baby steps when it comes to QoL.
 

Freelance Spy

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Smash is a franchise that takes... baby steps when it comes to QoL.
And backwards steps when it comes to balance at times...

70 characters tho, there's going to be weakpoints somewhere (menus lol)
 
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Vipermoon

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Switch your game to Japanese? It'll work wonders on Fox/Falco as well.

Do you REALLY need to read the menus?
You mean by mods? There's no toggle to switch language in-game.
 

Bowserboy3

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To be honest, I just don't quite get this whole "increased damage in 1 v 1's" scenario.

Or at least I didn't, until I saw this video recently - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7NJR-iRK40

I've been watching many a 1 v 1 in Smash Ultimate, and I haven't seen too many instances where the damage has been increased much, if at all. Like, I've been watching a fair few Marth videos, and sure enough, Marth's Fair is still doing 12.1% fresh (thats 11.5% x 1.05).

But then I saw the linked video, and Marth's SOUR Fair did 13.1% - watch at the 20 second mark. In the same video, Marth's Bthrow did 5.4% (even fresh, this should only ever be able to achieve 4.2%).

And then it hit me...

This video has items off.

And I went back and looked at most other videos, and sure enough, there are items on in the same videos where I am seeing no increase - infact damage may even be lower in some other characters cases.

This video is just a good one to watch in general. Confirms Uthrow still kills at around 145% with some form of rage (providing it's still in the game - remember, players saying it might be there doesn't confirm anything. It's not confirmed yet when it appears, if that, or how strong the effect is).
 
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Vipermoon

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Marth's sour Fair did 10.1% in that video, not 13.1. Still, that's definitely increased damage.

I saw the same inconsistency with 1 v 1 damage. Sometimes there was an increase, sometimes there wasn't. I thought it was a screw-up on their part, but it makes more sense that it simply depends on items. With items on, damage racks up pretty fast already.

Thanks for the discovery!!
 

Bowserboy3

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Marth's sour Fair did 10.1% in that video, not 13.1. Still, that's definitely increased damage.

I saw the same inconsistency with 1 v 1 damage. Sometimes there was an increase, sometimes there wasn't. I thought it was a screw-up on their part, but it makes more sense that it simply depends on items. With items on, damage racks up pretty fast already.

Thanks for the discovery!!
Ahh yes, my addition failed me lol. Bthrow definitely did 5.4% though - that shouldn't happen normally.

But yes, it would seem that in games with items on, the damage increase for 1 v 1 does not apply.
 

**Gilgamesh**

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I have this feeling like the S4 maintenance team (balance patchers) and Sakurai's S5 ventures were somewhat separate.
Marth and Sheik both look like they have numbers comparable to release S4. Sheik's bair, up air and bouncing fish being strong (I choked a little when I saw Sheik's up air kill at 90%), Marth's DB start up worsening and seemingly low knockback values (damage) on a lot of the tools Marth got buffed (also jab being a tech chase angle rather than a follow up tool again, like the start of S4).

Could be that the main focus was the game's new mechanics/design paradigm (blanket landing lag reductions), thus scripts of character's movesets have likely been copied over.
This bodes poorly in some ways; a lot of S4 gripes I have is the choppy/obviously lazy work that occurred for many characters from Brawl to S4 (i.e. animation tweaks done by scripts rather than changing model data, resulting in jagged movements and unforeseen interactions; e.g. animations that technically last 60 frames yet can be interacted out of faster but result in not being able to grab ledges or regain aerial momentum). If marth's DB is literally just "half animation speed" again (it was buffed to be 2/3rds speed when it was buffed) from it's original four frame start up animation IN BRAWL (10 years old) I'm going to be peeved.

BUT DASH TO TIPPER DOWN TILT THOUGH
Now that there has been far more footage of the game; what are your thoughts of the general mechanics/ gameplay and theorized META along with Marth.
 

Guljy

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A lot of youtubers tend to think Marth will be even better than in smash 4, so that gives me hope.
 
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Bowserboy3

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Has anyone been able to find videos where we can clearly hear Marth's victory phrases yet? I really want to know what he says.

I have only really heard two, and even then I am not 100% on if I heard them correctly.

I seem to have heard;

1) "I win to fight again."
2) "This victory... is mine!"

Anyone got any good video's of his victory quotes?

---

Also, as an aside, it would seem many players who have played the demo are speaking highly of Marth.

Anyone have any opinions to add?

I mean, if what we are getting is effectively Smash 4 Marth with slightly slower DB startup and no Jab confirms, BUT incredible landing lag numbers and easier tippers overall... I can see that working/being better - namely for the lesser landing lag. This is what kept him from being truly broken in Smash 4.
 

A_Kae

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Also, as an aside, it would seem many players who have played the demo are speaking highly of Marth.

Anyone have any opinions to add?

I mean, if what we are getting is effectively Smash 4 Marth with slightly slower DB startup and no Jab confirms, BUT incredible landing lag numbers and easier tippers overall... I can see that working/being better - namely for the lesser landing lag. This is what kept him from being truly broken in Smash 4.
I have really mixed feelings about Ultimate Marth. I mean, the massive landing recovery reductions and other global changes are probably going to carry him pretty far, but it seems like from what I've seen and heard (admittedly not a whole lot - I've been a bit too busy to keep up with the news as much as I would like to) that he's mostly otherwise S4 Marth and all of the baggage that entails. I'm not a fan of some of the new animations or the English VA either.

Plus, Dancing Blade is such a important and defining move for him and to have it changed so much is a major put off for me.

But I haven't seen enough/enough in depth stuff to really make a proper judgment. Especially considering how much things are subject to change in the coming months. But it does seem like the core of Marth that's always appealed to me is intact, so even if I don't agree with some of the changes, there's no way I could give him up.
 

Guljy

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I know we shouldn't take what youtubers say as the only thing that matters, but Esam put Marth as I believe the 5th best character in the demo, which shows some promise.
 

Rich Homie Quan

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From all the vids I’ve seen, Marth looks pretty sick. The changes to Dancing Blade seem like something we can get around, right? It doesn’t look thaaaat much slower on startup...
 

Vipermoon

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Dancing Blade, what I would call his best move right now, is ruined for Ultimate. It's still okay – being a transcendent priority, disjointed multihit, but it's seen extreme nerfs. It was sped up probably so that each hit does less hitstun (knockback) and to justify damage nerfs. These were done to nerf the strategy of slowing DB down to trick shielding opponents and to wait for the tipper AND give us time to think and read DI. Sakurai no doubt also wanted to make it easier on casual players that just want to mash side B. Wouldn't work in all Smash games except Ultimate seeing how DB goes 2x faster now. In addition to all that, you got reduced kill power and I saw characters falling out of it in many gameplay videos – in that you're punished for getting the tip. It's partly because Marth isn't walking forward anymore in the animations. He kind of stays in place.

But then, this startup nerf is more significant than all that other stuff combined. It's 1.5x slower on a move that is supposed to be both an out of shield option (frame 6 out of shield drop can punish many things; frame 9... can't punish much, especially given the landing lag reductions and shield stun increase Ultimate has) and supposed to be Marth's dash attack (we all know his real dash attack sucks). If you want to know what F9 DB is like: use the Heavy Blade custom side B.

It's funny, the startup is nerfed on not just the first hit... it's nerfed on all hits. Hits 2 to 4 have severe startup reductions, even though the total frames of each hit are the same. So if you find yourself DBing a shield (which you will more often now that it's F9) and you stop the combo (whether it's at hit 2, 3, 4), your opponent will have more time to punish you. And forget about getting that follow-up tilt or aerial (into potential combo or zero-to-death) after DB4-up at low percent... there's more lag now. The DB4-down multihit may even be so fast that it locks the opponent in shield even if they release the trigger. Say goodbye to them dropping shield before the last hit. And because the last hitbox ends about 20 frames before it did in Smash 4 (crazy right!?), they have so MUCH TIME to punish you that they'll be half-charging their strongest Smash attack right in your face.

Outside of competitive, you know what sucks? To enable the "speed increase", they heavily simplified the animation. It no longer looks like a dance at all! Just a bunch of left and right swipes. Even worse: Marth, Lucina, Roy, and Chrom all use the same DB animations. So far: Melee, Brawl, Smash 4, and Ultimate all use different DB animations from each other. How difficult would it be for them to differentiate those four types into each of those four characters? It's tiring to see all the Fire Emblem characters use the same moves.

Speaking of left and right swipes, going back to competitive, where's the coverage on it now? They were arching hitboxes (even DB1 and DB3-forward that were supposed to be "forward" hits) that had great anti-air capabilities. Not anymore.
 
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Idon

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Dancing Blade, what I would call his best move right now, is ruined for Ultimate. It's still okay – being a transcendent priority, disjointed multihit, but it's seen extreme nerfs. It was sped up probably so that each hit does less hitstun (knockback) and to justify damage nerfs. These were done to nerf the strategy of slowing DB down to trick shielding opponents and to wait for the tipper AND give us time to think and read DI. Sakurai no doubt also wanted to make it easier on players that just want to mash side B. Wouldn't work in all Smash games except Ultimate seeing how DB goes 2x faster now. In addition to all that, you got reduced kill power and I saw characters falling out of it in many gameplay videos – in that you're punished for getting the tip. It's partly because Marth isn't walking forward anymore in the animations. He kind of stays in place.

And finally, this startup nerf is more significant than all that other stuff combined. It's 1.5x slower on a move that is supposed to be both an out of shield option (frame 6 out of shield drop can punish many things; frame 9... can't punish much, especially given the landing lag reductions and shield stun increase Ultimate has) and Marth's actual dash attack (we all know his real dash attack sucks). If you want to know what F9 DB is like: use the Heavy Blade custom side B.

Outside of competitive, you know what sucks? To enable the "speed increase", they heavily simplified the animation. It no longer looks like a dance at all! Just a bunch of left and right swipes. Even worse: Marth, Lucina, Roy, and Chrom all use the same animations. So far: Melee, Brawl, Smash 4, and Ultimate all use different DB animations from each other. How difficult would it be for them to differentiate those four types into each of those four characters? It's tiring to see all the Fire Emblem characters use the same moves.

Speaking of left and right swipes, going back to competitive, where's the coverage on it now? They were arching hitboxes (even DB1 and DB3-forward that were supposed to be "forward" hits) that had great anti-air capabilities. Not anymore.
Yeah, it just looks like Marth's flailing the blade really quickly when beforehand you really could tell that Marth was elegantly swinging and timing every slash. It really did feel like a "dance" of sorts, but here it's just up cut, down cut, up cut. Hell, even the effects used are way more simple than before.
 

Vipermoon

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Yeah, it just looks like Marth's flailing the blade really quickly when beforehand you really could tell that Marth was elegantly swinging and timing every slash. It really did feel like a "dance" of sorts, but here it's just up cut, down cut, up cut. Hell, even the effects used are way more simple than before.
And each hitbox will last just 1 frame too. Where before it was 2 or 3 frames that the hitbox was out. I can tell because when looking at the frame-by-frame: on one frame he hasn't started the attack, the next frame the sword is already done swiping and the whole sword trail is in. It's super weird, like Marth's arm is teleporting from one side to the other.
 

Vipermoon

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This should be set to play at 2:34...

So Marth Dancing Blade still kills. I retract my assumption that it would be noticeably weaker. I don't think the Bayo DI'ed it, but the tipper forward hit is still strong. Now we have to see how easily we can get this tipper.

Also at some other point in the video, the Bayo fell out of DB and I noticed the circumstance. The Bayo was already in the air, just a bit higher than Marth. I think Sakurai designed it to not connect in that case. He probably wants you to use the Up version for that.
 

PF9

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What are the chances the FE characters with English voices get British VAs for the European release of Ultimate (to increase their appeal to European audiences)?
 

Arthur97

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What are the chances the FE characters with English voices get British VAs for the European release of Ultimate (to increase their appeal to European audiences)?
Unless they got them for Heroes, probably unlikely.

Besides, do British accents really even appeal to Europe as a whole?
 

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What are the chances the FE characters with English voices get British VAs for the European release of Ultimate (to increase their appeal to European audiences)?
Considering they use the same voices in Europe that they do in North America, to the point of Heroes even reverting some of the European localization changes in favor of the North American ones? Literally no chance.
 

Vipermoon

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I played SSBU Marth for the first time today. Though it was on a Pro controller with Smash stick, L grab, and a right-side button layout I just couldn't get used to.

He feels smooth but so does every character. Dancing Blade is far too easy, but you can taste the start-up. You can also taste insane lag on DB4-Down; like he cannot shield until the animation is completely over.

Good news that jump Dancing Blade still brings a vertical boost; I used it to avoid another Marth's Fair after I had double jumped.

More good news that full hop > double jump > buffed fully charged Shield Breaker still comes out just before landing providing a ground-sliding really strong hit.

Bad news that Fthrow absolutely cannot combo. The knockback on it is much too far. Even at 0%.
 

Guljy

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I played SSBU Marth for the first time today. Though it was on a Pro controller with Smash stick, L grab, and a right-side button layout I just couldn't get used to.

He feels smooth but so does every character. Dancing Blade is far too easy, but you can taste the start-up. You can also taste insane lag on DB4-Down; like he cannot shield until the animation is completely over.

Good news that jump Dancing Blade still brings a vertical boost; I used it to avoid another Marth's Fair after I had double jumped.

More good news that full hop > double jump > buffed fully charged Shield Breaker still comes out just before landing providing a ground-sliding really strong hit.

Bad news that Fthrow absolutely cannot combo. The knockback on it is much too far. Even at 0%.
Cool thanks for all of the information, but did you see if up throw still killed, also does this mean f-throw gets you of stage easier?
 
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Vipermoon

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Cool thanks for all of the information, but did you see if up throw still killed, also does this mean f-throw gets you of stage easier?
Please, that color is hard on our eyes.

Anyway, yes I got a couple Uthrow kills and watched others use it. It's likely the same (definitely not stronger, but hopefully not weaker).

Fthrow at low percent technically will get them off stage easier. However, so would a Fthrow to at least one Fair, which would apply more pressure and at least deal real damage. I mean Marth's throws really don't do damage. Did you know his Dthrow now does 4% instead of 5? Now each of his throws do 4%. LOL.

The interesting shoulder bash animation of the new Fthrow was a good opportunity for it to do at least 1-2% more. Because it both makes sense from a realistic perspective (it hurts more) and a gameplay perspective (it isn't gonna combo).

The good news is that Fthrow has the same startup and end lag as previous, so it's still a pretty fast throw that also lags least out of all his throws.
More good news is that Bthrow has 8-10 frames less end lag, though that hardly matters.
 
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Guljy

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Please, that color is hard on our eyes.

Anyway, yes I got a couple Uthrow kills and watched others use it. It's likely the same (definitely not stronger, but hopefully not weaker).

Fthrow at low percent technically will get them off stage easier. However, so would a Fthrow to at least one Fair, which would apply more pressure and at least deal real damage. I mean Marth's throws really don't do damage. Did you know his Dthrow now does 4% instead of 5? Now each of his throws do 4%. LOL.

The interesting shoulder bash animation of the new Fthrow was a good opportunity for it to do at least 1-2% more. Because it both makes sense from a realistic perspective (it hurts more) and a gameplay perspective (it isn't gonna combo).

The good news is that Fthrow has the same startup and end lag as previous, so it's still a pretty fast throw that also lags least out of all his throws.
More good news is that Bthrow has 8-10 frames less end lag, though that hardly matters.
I was just wondering what do you mean by that color is hard on our eyes, ya the way i see it getting off stage easier may be pretty strong in ultimate but I don't know, once again thanks for the info
 

Locuan

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I was just wondering what do you mean by that color is hard on our eyes, ya the way i see it getting off stage easier may be pretty strong in ultimate but I don't know, once again thanks for the info
The color you chose for your text. It's impossible to read unless I highlight it or copy/paste it in notepad. That's what Vipermoon was referring to.
 

Guljy

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The color you chose for your text. It's impossible to read unless I highlight it or copy/paste it in notepad. That's what Vipermoon was referring to.
Sorry, I was wondering is it any easier to read now thanks, for some reason it looks normal on my computer
 
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Locuan

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Sorry, I was wondering is it any easier to read now thanks, for some reason it looks normal on my computer
First of all don't worry about it, no need to apologize~ Going back to your question though the text is not easier to read. The best option would be to use colors that are on the lighter side. The darker shades usually make it very difficult to read.
 

Vipermoon

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Also, I witnessed that Marth's vertical (and slightly diagonal) magnet hand, a.k.a ledge grab range, is smaller. Hopefully just a universal change.
 
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marth_t90

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can anyone that's played the demo comment on marth's dair hitbox being changed?
 

Vipermoon

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I didn't use it that much and didn't see others use it that much (but make no mistake, I use it often in Smash 4), and I didn't notice any change.
 

Guljy

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I didn't use it that much and didn't see others use it that much (but make no mistake, I use it often in Smash 4), and I didn't notice any change.
I am not good enough to use marth's dair effectively in Smash 4, I would love it if it went back to how it was in Melee (Although that may be OP)
P.S is this easier to read
 

Vipermoon

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I am not good enough to use marth's dair effectively in Smash 4, I would love it if it went back to how it was in Melee (Although that may be OP)
P.S is this easier to read
Much easier. That's a nice looking color. Yeah Marth's Brawl and Melee Dair was really stylish. I wish it could, but that'll never happen.
 

Guljy

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Much easier. That's a nice looking color. Yeah Marth's Brawl and Melee Dair was really stylish. I wish it could, but that'll never happen.
I think I have asked this before but after playing the demo do you think Marth is more buffed or nerfed (in this current form of the game) Also by the way once again thanks for all of the information, you have taught me almost all I know about Ultimate Marth, and you aren't rude about it :)
 
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Vipermoon

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I think I have asked this before but after playing the demo do you think Marth is more buffed or nerfed (in this current form of the game) Also by the way once again thanks for all of the information, you have taught me almost all I know about Ultimate Marth, and you aren't rude about it
He isn't buffed in any way I can imagine, unless we're talking about things every character got.
 

Vipermoon

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Marth's up throw now does 5%, up from 4%. So Dthrow went from 5 to 4, and Uthrow took its place as our highest-damage throw. This mimics Smash 4 Roy in that his Uthrow is also his highest-damage throw.

They adjusted the knockback values so that it isn't stronger.
 
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marth_t90

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iv been watching a Lot of gameplay videos and it looks like his main followups are nair into nair (or obv fair into fair), db as a confirm is weird cus often opps can escape by db3. also against Ike i saw alot of both of them throwing out Fairs nd Ike beating him pretty much every single time cus of the length of his sword
 
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