Social Can Ken Ken combo again? - Marth Smash Switch speculation thread

Flowen231

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^^^ that up there pretty much sums it up. The actions that marth takes are identical to lucina's. Down to the frame data they both thrive at playing the same exact way, lucina just lacks the inconsistency and therefore always gets edgeguard benefits and often mitigates small mistakes where as small mistakes can cost you a lot more with marth.

Also, on that subject. How have the olimar changes helped you guys? I hear that olimar's hurtbox is deceptively much bigger than his model now, does that help with tips or does it make it weird?
 
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Locuan

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How have the olimar changes helped you guys? I hear that olimar's hurtbox is deceptively much bigger than his model now, does that help with tips or does it make it weird?
Unfortunately, there's only two Olimar players in my region. One who was PR'd in S4 but isn't atm cause he hasn't been able to go to tournaments. The other probably dropped the character after the nerfs. So in essence, I barely have any practice in that match-up. Come Friday I might have more opinions on the matter due to attending a Smashfest were one of those players will be attending.

I also have the issue of not wanting to play online at all. I just play at locals which hinders my practice on matchups.
 
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Flowen231

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I know the feeling. I play mostly offline myself, rarely online with friends so I don't get as much MU practice aside from trying other characters and asking my friends to try using them ;p. Good luck though.
 

Flowen231

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I watched as well. And honestly it did motivate me to try Marth again. If i'm being honest, he kinda had a point when he mentioned that some people (myself included) dropped Marth partially due to laziness, but 2 days in and I remember why I dropped that inconsistent booty despite him being the one I used far more in smash 4.

They should make Marth's tipper the size of Roy's sweet spot, its only fair ;p. XD
 

NinfanNanz

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Without results, I'll remain skeptical.
Yea my biggest thing was Salem was theory crafting on a character he doesn't play. Sooo *shrug* every marth player i have watched in the past couple of weeks in big tournaments has lost so yea i think Salem needs more than theory to make his claim. If MKleo dropped him in tournament, Marth is sketch.

I watched as well. And honestly it did motivate me to try Marth again. If i'm being honest, he kinda had a point when he mentioned that some people (myself included) dropped Marth partially due to laziness, but 2 days in and I remember why I dropped that inconsistent booty despite him being the one I used far more in smash 4.

They should make Marth's tipper the size of Roy's sweet spot, its only fair ;p. XD
God if only. I really do hope we get a more consistent tipper. Dancing blade, fsmash, and dtilt feel like a pixel wide in this game.
 

Arthur97

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Yea my biggest thing was Salem was theory crafting on a character he doesn't play. Sooo *shrug* every marth player i have watched in the past couple of weeks in big tournaments has lost so yea i think Salem needs more than theory to make his claim. If MKleo dropped him in tournament, Marth is sketch.



God if only. I really do hope we get a more consistent tipper. Dancing blade, fsmash, and dtilt feel like a pixel wide in this game.
Theory alone is something some people have issues falling into. Kind of like with Shulk. I mean, from the start it seems pretty obvious that Marth is better in theory, but no one can do it. However, I'm also hesitant to buff him too much (or nerf her too much) largely due to my own bias. I don't want a repeat of Smash 4.
 

Flowen231

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I honestly wouldn't mind if they buff marth. And I definitely wouldn't mind a repeat of smash 4 since I'm not really a loyalist and I used marth more back then despite starting out with lucina as my first secondary.

The issue is that marth is a classic example of a character that could go from buns to busted even with minor tweaks assuming they change the right thing. They can't really buff him too much because if they were to make him consistent enough for high level players to tipper in the same way that pro tekken players always land just frame electrics, he would essentially be the lucina we have now but way better for anyone willing to put a few more brain cells into using him.

In that same vein, however. They could just nerf lucina universally to make them on par with each other, but nerfing lucina isn't really going to make marth any better, just better in comparison to lucina which imo would still be used way more in competitive play due to marth just being straight inconsistent.
 
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Shaya

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I think they could afford to buff the tippers on forward smash and up smash. In the former case, not really necessary, but being able to hit the entire cast standing or lying on a battlefield platform would be nice. For up smash I think the tipper should be given hitbox priority over the sour spot; or they could turn on the non-interpolation flag for it (this would actually be helpful on a lot of his moves) so anything above a certain height or falling into you would generally tipper.

And/or otherwise, tippers being made stronger would also be my preference.

If they don't, that's fine, I'm happy with my tipper consistency + also really enjoy intentful sour spots and creating early dancing blade or fsmash ko scenarios :>
 
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Flowen231

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Eh, imo that wouldn't matter too much. Hitting on platforms aside, increasing tipper power seems kind of moot since marth already has hella high power. I don't think anyone can argue that marth kills mad early when he does get those tips; Problem is that his inconsistency has a tendency of invalidating that power.

Speaking of intentional sour spots. Are there any recorded tourney sets out there of someone utilizing them? I see it happen a lot on online montages and training but I've never seen it happen in tournament.
 

Shaya

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Power on fsmash/dancing blade/etc definitely don't need to be upped.

But slight tweaks upwards of tippers on aerials/tilts (imo, up air most stands out) would be substantial. Tipper up airs off a full hop height killing at 130-140%ish would end the most consistent disappointment of him to me right now.
I'm not sure how much you expect or think needs to be changed to "matter" enough - I don't believe it would take that much (even if I feel their tier gap is apparent, he's still not astronomically weaker).

Who knows, I've barely seen a recorded/streamed tournament set featuring marth at all - he's almost non existent in stats.

Preaching to the choir but it lacks sense to me that people have so fragrantly and quickly discarded Marth in a brand new game and engine by virtue of "inconsistency" (something that inherently would apply more [note: not saying entirely] to the player than the character), as if it doesn't take time and effort to adjust to anything. I predominately play Zero Suit, and her animation changes to bair radically reduced my consistency in safely landing it as a whiff punish, particularly against the like of swords, to the point I wanted to drop her for the first month or so of Ultimate, I opted to just use other moves instead, but have come full circle to using it in a similar way as I used to now with renewed confidence.

Lucina is blessed by being able to play almost entirely the same she did in S4 without much hiccup. But maximising her potential (minimizing air time after landing hits through delays/etc to maximise frame advantage, mitigating enemy parry attempts through mix ups and pressure through spacing) all converge to what would likely accentuate Marth "more".
At the end of the day, there will likely be match ups where Marth will feel a lot more inconsistent due to hurtbox shifting (big example: Wolf mid air jumping or nairing both shift him in a jagged way that severely hampers traditional 'place the move in a way that both them and my sword approach each other') that mightn't ever be worthwhile risking over Lucina.
 
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Vipermoon

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I think they could afford to buff the tippers on forward smash and up smash. In the former case, not really necessary, but being able to hit the entire cast standing or lying on a battlefield platform would be nice. For up smash I think the tipper should be given hitbox priority over the sour spot; or they could turn on the non-interpolation flag for it (this would actually be helpful on a lot of his moves) so anything above a certain height or falling into you would generally tipper.

And/or otherwise, tippers being made stronger would also be my preference.

If they don't, that's fine, I'm happy with my tipper consistency + also really enjoy intentful sour spots and creating early dancing blade or fsmash ko scenarios :>
I agree that Usmash could change with either a lower sourspot or hitbox ID switch, like you said. How should the ID switch work with the dust cloud, though? It shouldn't tipper if they got hit from the ground. But the interpolation won't matter because Usmash comes out on frame 13, where the sword is already extended. It would be a different story if it's frame 12. I also think Usmash needs less endlag, because air dodges have 10 frames of landing lag vs. 22 in Smash 4.

Fsmash shouldn't have more disjoint or a receded sourspot, in my opinion. I think Marth players are going to get a lot more consistent at specific tipper Fsmash set ups, and it already kills far earlier than ever. What they should do instead to hit on the platform on standing characters (landing characters and knocked-down characters already get hit) is change the angle of the sword on frame 10 and between 10 and 11. Marth is holding it in a way that's very slanted as to minimize it's vertical range (like Ganon's Fsmash). Melee's frame 10 is a little less slanted and I think that little bit is all it needs to consistently hit a small spot on the platform.

I agree that aerials need to be stronger. Tipper Fair, Bair, and Uair are far too difficult for their reward. Tipper Fair is very weak in this game and — I'm sure you saw the hitboxes — is much harder to tipper. I'd like to see more knockback growth. Tipper Bair isn't that strong and is again much harder to tipper. I'd like to see 13% base damage... and add 0.5% to the sourspot too (Lucina's Bair will still be way overtuned, LOL). I'd like to see more power on tipper Uair for sure. People survive longer vertically in this game and we play on higher ceilings on average.

If they don't want them strong, sourspot Fair and Bair sword hitbox need to go back to their Smash 4 location. Marth seriously cannot consistently edgeguard and it's a huge problem.

Power on fsmash/dancing blade/etc definitely don't need to be upped.

But slight tweaks upwards of tippers on aerials/tilts (imo, up air most stands out) would be substantial. Tipper up airs off a full hop height killing at 130-140%ish would end the most consistent disappointment of him to me right now.
I'm not sure how much you expect or think needs to be changed to "matter" enough - I don't believe it would take that much (even if I feel their tier gap is apparent, he's still not astronomically weaker).

Who knows, I've barely seen a recorded/streamed tournament set featuring marth at all - he's almost non existent in stats.

Preaching to the choir but it lacks sense to me that people have so fragrantly and quickly discarded Marth in a brand new game and engine by virtue of "inconsistency" (something that inherently would apply more [note: not saying entirely] to the player than the character), as if it doesn't take time and effort to adjust to anything. I predominately play Zero Suit, and her animation changes to bair radically reduced my consistency in safely landing it as a whiff punish, particularly against the like of swords, to the point I wanted to drop her for the first month or so of Ultimate, I opted to just use other moves instead, but have come full circle to using it in a similar way as I used to now with renewed confidence.

Lucina is blessed by being able to play almost entirely the same she did in S4 without much hiccup. But maximising her potential (minimizing air time after landing hits through delays/etc to maximise frame advantage, mitigating enemy parry attempts through mix ups and pressure through spacing) all converge to what would likely accentuate Marth "more".
At the end of the day, there will likely be match ups where Marth will feel a lot more inconsistent due to hurtbox shifting (big example: Wolf mid air jumping or nairing both shift him in a jagged way that severely hampers traditional 'place the move in a way that both them and my sword approach each other') that mightn't ever be worthwhile risking over Lucina.
Well said.
 
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NinfanNanz

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Power on fsmash/dancing blade/etc definitely don't need to be upped.

But slight tweaks upwards of tippers on aerials/tilts (imo, up air most stands out) would be substantial. Tipper up airs off a full hop height killing at 130-140%ish would end the most consistent disappointment of him to me right now.
I'm not sure how much you expect or think needs to be changed to "matter" enough - I don't believe it would take that much (even if I feel their tier gap is apparent, he's still not astronomically weaker).

Who knows, I've barely seen a recorded/streamed tournament set featuring marth at all - he's almost non existent in stats.

Preaching to the choir but it lacks sense to me that people have so fragrantly and quickly discarded Marth in a brand new game and engine by virtue of "inconsistency" (something that inherently would apply more [note: not saying entirely] to the player than the character), as if it doesn't take time and effort to adjust to anything. I predominately play Zero Suit, and her animation changes to bair radically reduced my consistency in safely landing it as a whiff punish, particularly against the like of swords, to the point I wanted to drop her for the first month or so of Ultimate, I opted to just use other moves instead, but have come full circle to using it in a similar way as I used to now with renewed confidence.

Lucina is blessed by being able to play almost entirely the same she did in S4 without much hiccup. But maximising her potential (minimizing air time after landing hits through delays/etc to maximise frame advantage, mitigating enemy parry attempts through mix ups and pressure through spacing) all converge to what would likely accentuate Marth "more".
At the end of the day, there will likely be match ups where Marth will feel a lot more inconsistent due to hurtbox shifting (big example: Wolf mid air jumping or nairing both shift him in a jagged way that severely hampers traditional 'place the move in a way that both them and my sword approach each other') that mightn't ever be worthwhile risking over Lucina.
Tipper Fair and Up Air really lack kill power right now. they really need to do a bit more tune-up on fair to give it more killing power.
Also, I wish Dancing Blade had better tippers right now. Some of the hitboxes are wack af. He really just needs some slight tune-ups to make him a good character. Nothing radical.

I would like to have it be like in smash 4, where Marth had more range than Lucina, but the problem is I don't think they would do that. Since they seem to want to keep echo fighters the same, except for the key differences, im going to assume we are only going to get either damage or knockback changes, because if we give marth more range, lucina is going to get it. but who knows? Daisy had different turnips at one point, and now she doesn't haha.
 

Shaya

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Marth's range advantage over Lucina was infinitesimal. Truly. It shouldn't and wouldn't have mattered 99.9% of the time.
If you scratched/glancing blow'd someone with Lucina, there might've been a universe where Marth would've hit instead.

As they had given animations alterations to Chrom,BEYOND just the up-b, who knows. As Viper pointed out and I hadn't thought of it that way, a slight change to Marth's fsmash animation would probably go nicely.
Hitbox priority or interpolating animations would change everything too.

I think they intended for Marth's forward air to not be strong like in brawl or late s4 to accentuate it as a potential combo set up (ala Melee), but they kept it's angle the same, an angle that isn't "good" for comboing. It might be the hardest of hard reads, but I feel like there's a chance they might do something like that (alter it's angle). Angle alterations would be one of the funnest ways to make marf gr8 4g41n imo, I've waited a long time, lol.

Either way, with Luci's fair taking a knock down, and imo, fair not being too overtly difficult to tipper (above or below you rule, use mid air jump with instant fair to generally tipper reliably) is a reasonable advantage he has over her. And of course let's not forget forward tilt (one of our easiest moves to tipper with).

I do think back to the days of Brawl where a tipper fair would ko on smashville to the other side of the blastzone by 150% though ;_; (and thats with momentum canceling, lol).
 
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Vipermoon

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Marth's range advantage over Lucina was infinitesimal. Truly. It shouldn't and wouldn't have mattered 99.9% of the time.
If you scratched/glancing blow'd someone with Lucina, there might've been a universe where Marth would've hit instead.

As they had given animations alterations to Chrom,BEYOND just the up-b, who knows. As Viper pointed out and I hadn't thought of it that way, a slight change to Marth's fsmash animation would probably go nicely.
Hitbox priority or interpolating animations would change everything too.

I think they intended for Marth's forward air to not be strong like in brawl or late s4 to accentuate it as a potential combo set up (ala Melee), but they kept it's angle the same, an angle that isn't "good" for comboing. It might be the hardest of hard reads, but I feel like there's a chance they might do something like that (alter it's angle). Angle alterations would be one of the funnest ways to make marf gr8 4g41n imo, I've waited a long time, lol.

Either way, with Luci's fair taking a knock down, and imo, fair not being too overtly difficult to tipper (above or below you rule, use mid air jump with instant fair to generally tipper reliably) is a reasonable advantage he has over her. And of course let's not forget forward tilt (one of our easiest moves to tipper with).

I do think back to the days of Brawl where a tipper fair would ko on smashville to the other side of the blastzone by 150% though ;_; (and thats with momentum canceling, lol).

I thought a lot about angle changes on Fair!

See Ike's was reduced from Sakurai to 30° in this game. Roy's was increased from Sakurai to 42° (since Sakurai is 0-to-38° in this game). Robin's was already high. Corrin's even higher (2° off Melee Marth tipper Fair. Chrom and Lucina [and Marth] are the only Sakurai angle Fairs left.

Marth's can and should definitely change...

Scenario 1: Sakurai Sour, 38° Tipper
Scenario 2: Sakurai Sour, 45° Tipper
Scenario 3: 38° Sour, 38° Tipper
Scenario 4: 38° Sour, 45° Tipper
Scenario 5: 45° Sour, 45° Tipper

Any part of Fair not being a Sakurai angle will be good for combos, since at any percent characters that get hit will come off the ground. They just have to figure out if this combo potential should be tipper-only and if they want to preserve edgeguards (45° won't be good for edgeguards). If both sour and tipper come off the Sakurai angle that could be even to turn the tides in Marth's favor (and make him way too fun), but I fear of making Fair too good as I don't want to see its usage get too high relative to the rest of his moveset.
 

NinfanNanz

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Marth's range advantage over Lucina was infinitesimal. Truly. It shouldn't and wouldn't have mattered 99.9% of the time.
If you scratched/glancing blow'd someone with Lucina, there might've been a universe where Marth would've hit instead.

As they had given animations alterations to Chrom,BEYOND just the up-b, who knows. As Viper pointed out and I hadn't thought of it that way, a slight change to Marth's fsmash animation would probably go nicely.
Hitbox priority or interpolating animations would change everything too.

I think they intended for Marth's forward air to not be strong like in brawl or late s4 to accentuate it as a potential combo set up (ala Melee), but they kept it's angle the same, an angle that isn't "good" for comboing. It might be the hardest of hard reads, but I feel like there's a chance they might do something like that (alter it's angle). Angle alterations would be one of the funnest ways to make marf gr8 4g41n imo, I've waited a long time, lol.

Either way, with Luci's fair taking a knock down, and imo, fair not being too overtly difficult to tipper (above or below you rule, use mid air jump with instant fair to generally tipper reliably) is a reasonable advantage he has over her. And of course let's not forget forward tilt (one of our easiest moves to tipper with).

I do think back to the days of Brawl where a tipper fair would ko on smashville to the other side of the blastzone by 150% though ;_; (and thats with momentum canceling, lol).
I get that the range difference was very small, but it was like, one weird thing that differentiated the two. Like how chrom and Roy have different f-tilts, for some reason. It was just a small strange difference that i enjoyed. Made me feel better to play marth.

I think angle changes on fair, would be super dope. Oooh comboing with fair would be so nice.
 

Hydde

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I would love for his dair to be something again. and his aerials in general are very difficult to sweetspot and dair and bair are just overwhemmingly tough to hit.

You know one thing that could buff marth and at the same time differentiate him from Lucina? his throws.
Why do not make marth able to combo from his throws like he did in melee? comboing certain characters from upthrows and dowon throws?. Heck, even be able to link a back throw into a buffed Bair would be awesome.

This would give marth a whole new repertoire and indetity.

The tipper are hella strong when connected.. but utside of tippers, marth is just a poormans Lucina, and i think everyone is clear about it.

PD: I hatre how his Fsmash is less practical than his ftilt. The range is so small.... why? Make his Fsmash froward hitbox bigger!
 
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NinfanNanz

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I would love for his dair to be something again. and his aerials in general are very difficult to sweetspot and dair and bair are just overwhemmingly tough to hit.

You know one thing that could buff marth and at the same time differentiate him from Lucina? his throws.
Why do not make marth able to combo from his throws like he did in melee? comboing certain characters from upthrows and dowon throws?. Heck, even be able to link a back throw into a buffed Bair would be awesome.

This would give marth a whole new repertoire and indetity.

The tipper are hella strong when connected.. but utside of tippers, marth is just a poormans Lucina, and i think everyone is clear about it.

PD: I hatre how his Fsmash is less practical than his ftilt. The range is so small.... why? Make his Fsmash froward hitbox bigger!
I don't think they will change his throws and not Lucina's hahah. That would be a very strange thing to do.

Honestly, Marth Sourspots need angle/damage/knockback changes is all. but I don't wanna let this social thread be "Marth sux lmao"


What major did marth get top 32 at?? I must have missed that.

https://twitter.com/LoopBarnard/status/1163424804520779778?s=20
 
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valy64

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Less end lag on dair. All I ask for
thats not the problem. Do you remember Melee Dair? You could not use this move off stage without dying, if you didnt have a double jump left.

Meteor smashing with DAir is WAAAAY too hard. In melee dair dunked everytime you hit the move, in ultimate you have like a .... 2 frames window? the ****?
 
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Hydde

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thats not the problem. Do you remember Melee Dair? You could not use this move off stage without dying, if you didnt have a double jump left.

Meteor smashing with DAir is WAAAAY too hard. In melee dair dunked everytime you hit the move, in ultimate you have like a .... 2 frames window? the ****?
Yup. Is one of the moves they should revisit. The same with Bair, the dancing blade and fsmash range. The rest are fine
 

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MKLeo used marth at UFA and he got to winners quarters with it (not sure if farther, know he used it in grand finals), but damn marth can do some busted things haha.

https://youtu.be/_lx-Hzl0K-I
MKLeo's control of the neutral is immaculate, but even still he loses the games he brings him out and then switches back to Joker...

At least his waveland punishes are cool as **** to watch.
 

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MKLeo's control of the neutral is immaculate, but even still he loses the games he brings him out and then switches back to Joker...

At least his waveland punishes are cool as **** to watch.
Yep. MKleo is the only person to use Marth, and Lucina has basically been every one's go to. Marth has a pretty troublesome time killing, and it shows. MKLeo is just really good at spacing and controlling Neutral, which accentuates Marth's strong points.
 

NinfanNanz

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I see MKleo using a lot of ftilts in neutral, because it beats a lot of aerial options, but it does it lose to shield? It is -13 on shield but it's range is long and easy to tipper.
 
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