Social Can Ken Ken combo again? - Marth Smash Switch speculation thread

Bowserboy3

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Vipermoon Vipermoon

One thing I've been pondering over for a bit and still am not sure what you meant by it was...

I recall a few posts back you mentioned Marth's Falchion model looked somewhat bigger?

What exactly do you mean? How did you figure this out - do you have any comparison?

And if so, how does this (or not) affect his overall reach on moves?

Would appreciate responses to these because I've been wondering for a while now and my head hurts lol.
 

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Vipermoon Vipermoon

One thing I've been pondering over for a bit and still am not sure what you meant by it was...

I recall a few posts back you mentioned Marth's Falchion model looked somewhat bigger?

What exactly do you mean? How did you figure this out - do you have any comparison?

And if so, how does this (or not) affect his overall reach on moves?

Would appreciate responses to these because I've been wondering for a while now and my head hurts lol.
It appears biggers to me in both non-attack animations and artwork. But we're talking a minute difference; it just doesn't seem too small in those situations like Brawl and Smash 4 felt (even the amiibo LOL). I'm not talking about hitboxes and reach or range at all. Remember Heavy Blade, the DB custom? It made Marth's sword appear way longer than it was. Just one of the examples. During an attack, the sword can be whatever size, so I'm not paying attention to that. I'm waiting on hitbox positions and sizes to figure all of that stuff out.

And I could be wrong, it's an observation. But it also makes sense. In terms of sword models, Roy's sword in Smash 4 was longer than Marth's. Link's sword in Ultimate is far longer than his old one or Roy/Marth's. So maybe as a slight compensation aestetically, Marth's got a bit more silver in it too.
 
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Bowserboy3

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It appears biggers to me in both non-attack animations and artwork. But we're talking a minute difference; it just doesn't seem too small in those situations like Brawl and Smash 4 felt (even the amiibo LOL). I'm not talking about hitboxes and reach or range at all. Remember Heavy Blade, the DB custom? It made Marth's sword appear way longer than it was. Just one of the examples. During an attack, the sword can be whatever size, so I'm not paying attention to that. I'm waiting on hitbox positions and sizes to figure all of that stuff out.

And I could be wrong, it's an observation. But it also makes sense. In terms of sword models, Roy's sword in Smash 4 was longer than Marth's. Link's sword in Ultimate is far longer than his old one or Roy/Marth's. So maybe as a slight compensation aestetically, Marth's got a bit more silver in it too.
Ah I see now, thanks.

I am so eager to see what has happened with hitboxes in terms of reach... and tbh, in terms of tipper spacing etc. I want to know for sure whether it really is easier to space tippers in this game. Sometimes I feel like it's not (as in the overlap or something is less lenient), and other times I feel it's tippered when in Smash 4, it wouldn't have done.

I am almost positive that Uair has had some sort of change though. I've been tipping that move when I go to space it like there's no tomorrow. Wasn't it like the only move in his Smash 4 moveset that gave priority to the sourspot on overlap or something bizzare like that?
 

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Ah I see now, thanks.

I am so eager to see what has happened with hitboxes in terms of reach... and tbh, in terms of tipper spacing etc. I want to know for sure whether it really is easier to space tippers in this game. Sometimes I feel like it's not (as in the overlap or something is less lenient), and other times I feel it's tippered when in Smash 4, it wouldn't have done.

I am almost positive that Uair has had some sort of change though. I've been tipping that move when I go to space it like there's no tomorrow. Wasn't it like the only move in his Smash 4 moveset that gave priority to the sourspot on overlap or something bizzare like that?
I hope Uair is easier to tipper, because that crap is weak now.

Every Sm4sh and Ult. sourspot takes priority over the tipper (not including sweetspots like Uspecial and Dair spike; those aren't tippers). The story is that in Melee: Dair, Usmash, and Uair tippers took priority. In Brawl: Usmash and Uair tippers took priority. And you could tell. It was very difficult to not tipper those moves.
 
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I know right now the talk is more about the competitive aspect and not that much about aesthetics, but i wanted to add to an old post i made back in June of last year comparing the design of Marth from Smash 4 and Ultimate:

Aesthetically speaking i've been making comparisons between Sm4sh and Ultimate Marth, of course his design is still the same but he has several new details, an image for easier comparison:



You can spot his hair is fluffier and a bit messy compared to sm4sh perfect hair. tiara is different, pauldrons have a dark blue shade and different ornaments, he has two belts, the cape is lighter, gauntlets now have belts, Falchion's hilt is slightly different, now it looks closer to canon games and the scabbard too.
All are small changes, but he looks more "battle ready' while keeping the noble style he always had, definitely a favorite of mine along with his FE Heroes artwork (the one made by Kozaki).

This is because i made a neat discovery about where all those "new" details come from, i thought they were original for SSBU, but turns out Marth is now based on one of Kozaki's atwork from Fire Emblem Cipher a FE card game:
Compare it with his SSBU render.
i'm sharing this because i think not many people may have noticed it considering that card game is somewhat obscure outside Japan.
 

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Oh hell yeah. So obvious with the red gem (uncommon) and this new pink-ish sheath. Nice find. Hair and face from the card game is still pretty much Fire Emblem Warriors.
 
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marth_t90

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so how is everyone getting on? i'm on 2.6 million gsp and the main characteristic of what i find rewarding about his play is going offstage for [tipper] fairs

also up+b out of shiled to get out of peach etc pressure strings seems to be a rly good tool i've seen mr.e utilise in the past few weeks
 

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Does anyone here know stage blastzone values etc?

Specifically (if you happen to know) if there are any stages with the same size blastzones as Smash Wii U.

I would like to test some kill percents and the like across the two games, and naturally, I need a stage with the same blastzones.
 

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http://www.kuroganehammer.com/Ultimate/Stages
This is stage info for Ultimate.

To compare S4 vs Ult, I'd play with the S4 calculator and the Ult calculator's stage X and Y inputs to see what differences there are.

http://rubendal.github.io/Sm4sh-Calculator/kocalc.html
https://rubendal.github.io/SSBU-Calculator/kocalc.html

Edit:

Oh snap, forgot to tell you... Sakurai angle moves are not comparable (361°) between S4 and Ult. It's because now their varable launch angle is lower (that's why you see a lot more directly horizontal knockback vs. the more diagonal Brawn/S4 knockback), so they kill earlier. Especially for Sakurai angle moves that hit aerial opponents.

You can't compare Ftilt, Fsmash, Dsmash, Nair, Fair, Bair, SB, DB4, Counter.
 

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http://www.kuroganehammer.com/Ultimate/Stages
This is stage info for Ultimate.

To compare S4 vs Ult, I'd play with the S4 calculator and the Ult calculator's stage X and Y inputs to see what differences there are.

http://rubendal.github.io/Sm4sh-Calculator/kocalc.html
https://rubendal.github.io/SSBU-Calculator/kocalc.html

Edit:

Oh snap, forgot to tell you... Sakurai angle moves are not comparable (361°) between S4 and Ult. It's because now their varable launch angle is lower (that's why you see a lot more directly horizontal knockback vs. the more diagonal Brawn/S4 knockback), so they kill earlier. Especially for Sakurai angle moves that hit aerial opponents.

You can't compare Ftilt, Fsmash, Dsmash, Nair, Fair, Bair, SB, DB4, Counter.
Ahh, brilliant, thanks!

But, sorry, just explain again the Sakurai angle change thing please lol? I'm a bit slow.

So what's changed? Is Sakurai Angle not in Ultimate anymore?
 

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Ahh, brilliant, thanks!

But, sorry, just explain again the Sakurai angle change thing please lol? I'm a bit slow.

So what's changed? Is Sakurai Angle not in Ultimate anymore?
Sakurai angle is still around, but its angle values are lower in this game. For example, aerial opponents take 38° knockback angles in this game vs. the 45° in Smash 4. (keep in mind character gravity is acting as soon as they're launched, so launches look lower than those numbers)
 
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I'm looking to pick-up Marth to cover some match-ups I have difficulty playing as Link (mainly Meta Knight and Fox) and I'm having a hard time adjusting to landing tippers in this game compared to Smash 4. Have they been reduced to Smash 4, or are they just harder to land due to Marth having less reliable setups into them (like his Smash 4 Jab)?
 

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I'm looking to pick-up Marth to cover some match-ups I have difficulty playing as Link (mainly Meta Knight and Fox) and I'm having a hard time adjusting to landing tippers in this game compared to Smash 4. Have they been reduced to Smash 4, or are they just harder to land due to Marth having less reliable setups into them (like his Smash 4 Jab)?
Tippers are definitely not harder. Some are easier, actually. Not only is it you as a player picking up a new character, but Marth meta/players start slow in every Smash game. Melee players didn't even know if Marth was better than Roy for a few years, Brawl players didn't think of Marth as a top-tier at first, and we know Smash 4's story. They need lots of time to figure their weird moveset out, ya know?

If you're picking up Marcina to cover matchups and to help you win, you should use Lucina (unless you find her a total snooze-fest). It's just that when it's as a secondary, Marth isn't worth it. Besides, Lucina could already be the automatic favorite for the matchups you struggle with, like Fox.
 
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Tippers are definitely not harder. Some are easier, actually. Not only is it you as a player picking up a new character, but Marth meta/players start slow in every Smash game. Melee players didn't even know if Marth was better than Roy for a few years, Brawl players didn't think of Marth as a top-tier at first, and we know Smash 4's story. They need lots of time to figure their weird moveset out, ya know?

If you're picking up Marcina to cover matchups and to help you win, you should use Lucina (unless you find her a total snooze-fest). It's just that when it's as a secondary, Marth isn't worth it. Besides, Lucina could already be the automatic favorite for the matchups you struggle with, like Fox.
Yeah, I was considering Lucina, but I personally prefer Marth just because I like the tipper mechanic and the versatility it brings. Using stuff like sour F-Tilt and Fair to create tech-chases into sweetspots is pretty satisfying, even if Lucina is easier to play in these matchups. Only problem is that landing kills consistently at higher percents is hard outside of edgeguarding, especially since Up-Throw isn't as good as killing as it was in SSB4 and Jab cancels aren't a thing anymore.

That being said, Marth is really different in this game compared to SSB4 and there probably some adjustments I need to make to more consistently land / setup tippers. It helps that shields being worse + Marth's aerials having less landing lag make still let him do fine in neutral even if he doesn't always tipper his aerials.
 
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Bowserboy3

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Vipermoon Vipermoon - so do you think landing tippers in general is easier or harder in this game? There are definitely a few which I feel are easier, but I wanna see what you/others think before I say.
 

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Vipermoon Vipermoon - so do you think landing tippers in general is easier or harder in this game? There are definitely a few which I feel are easier, but I wanna see what you/others think before I say.
I think they are easier. I... can't say that any are harder for me except most hits of Dancing Blade.

Also, have you guys noticed how brainlessly easier the tipper Shield Breaker is? So nice to have.
 
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Bowserboy3

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Yeah i've noticed Shield Breaker tippering easier than before now you mention it but I just put it down to angling it up or down.

Anyways, I always thought Uair tipper specifically has been tipping a lot easier than Smash 4. Ftilt and probably Fair too. Utilt seems to tipper almost every time through a platform now which is nice.

How do you guys feel about Bair though? Sometimes I feel like it's okay but others I feel it's WORSE trying to tipper it.
 

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Yeah i've noticed Shield Breaker tippering easier than before now you mention it but I just put it down to angling it up or down.

Anyways, I always thought Uair tipper specifically has been tipping a lot easier than Smash 4. Ftilt and probably Fair too. Utilt seems to tipper almost every time through a platform now which is nice.

How do you guys feel about Bair though? Sometimes I feel like it's okay but others I feel it's WORSE trying to tipper it.
Uair is easier, all of the other aerials seem the same. Nair, since it has less range now, tippers closer but it feels like the same ratio. Dsmash seems easier. So does Dash Attack. What doesn't tipper easier is Usmash, which is BS (if you look at the hitbox positions for it, you'd be pissed too). The tilts feel the same, but maybe Utilt is easier if I was forced to pick one. You're saying that about Bair because of how it's always had severely differing range depending on the frame you hit on.

I always say this, but I can't wait to see the hitbox positions and sizes.

Because this is an indication of Marth's, here are Lucina's knockback values (and the other stuff): http://www.kuroganehammer.com/Ultimate/Lucina
KH thankfully got to it. Marth comes out very soon.

Here is Smash 4 if you want to compare: http://www.kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Lucina

Yes, you see that right. The full hop is 55 total frames instead of 61. That's why full hop Dair is very difficult to autocancel and full hop Dair to double jump is impossible. Every character has a shorter-lasting full hop. I counted Marth's in training mode at 55 a few weeks ago, but forgot to tell you guys.
 
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Mark The Page

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I have to vent. Excluding Olimar, I have never seen a more one-sided matchup than Marth vs King K. Rool.

King's projectiles can force the opponent to approach, yet with his super armor and ludicrously overpowered throws, his own approach is one of the most threatening in the game. His only weaknesses are:

- Combo food... but Marth is not a combo fighter.
- A recovery that some fighters can easily intercept... but not Marth.
- Using agility to dodge/jump/run around his attacks... which Marth can't do.
- Quick, reliable punishes... which Marth doesn't have.
- A reflector... which Marth doesn't have.

I'm at a point with Marth where I've mastered pivot canceling and consistently land tippers, but this is ridiculous. Marth does not have a single advantage or out in this matchup. The only successful playstyle I've found for Marth is playing defensively and waiting to intercept approaches. But of course, it's never a good idea to try intercepting King's attacks. All you can do is get out of the way.

Due to his poor momentum and unimpressive mobility, Marth can't approach for his life aside from when you have enough space to pivot cancel. And even if you do land a pivot-canceled tilt, you can STILL get punished if you don't land the tipper. Even successful jabs get punished. Even successful Dancing Blades get punished. I can't believe the developers did Marth this dirty in a game that's supposed to be Melee fanservice.

Marth has always had deep flaws--a zoner with no spacing tools, and missing a tipper is either laughably weak or a total whiff. But as of Smash Ultimate, his jab combos are gone, defense can no longer carry him, and sourspots are jokes. I've gotten so much better but it's still not enough for any stage but Battlefield.
 

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I have to vent. Excluding Olimar, I have never seen a more one-sided matchup than Marth vs King K. Rool.

King's projectiles can force the opponent to approach, yet with his super armor and ludicrously overpowered throws, his own approach is one of the most threatening in the game. His only weaknesses are:

- Combo food... but Marth is not a combo fighter.
- A recovery that some fighters can easily intercept... but not Marth.
- Using agility to dodge/jump/run around his attacks... which Marth can't do.
- Quick, reliable punishes... which Marth doesn't have.
- A reflector... which Marth doesn't have.

I'm at a point with Marth where I've mastered pivot canceling and consistently land tippers, but this is ridiculous. Marth does not have a single advantage or out in this matchup. The only successful playstyle I've found for Marth is playing defensively and waiting to intercept approaches. But of course, it's never a good idea to try intercepting King's attacks. All you can do is get out of the way.

Due to his poor momentum and unimpressive mobility, Marth can't approach for his life aside from when you have enough space to pivot cancel. And even if you do land a pivot-canceled tilt, you can STILL get punished if you don't land the tipper. Even successful jabs get punished. Even successful Dancing Blades get punished. I can't believe the developers did Marth this dirty in a game that's supposed to be Melee fanservice.

Marth has always had deep flaws--a zoner with no spacing tools, and missing a tipper is either laughably weak or a total whiff. But as of Smash Ultimate, his jab combos are gone, defense can no longer carry him, and sourspots are jokes. I've gotten so much better but it's still not enough for any stage but Battlefield.
The combo food part isn't really a negative for Marth. Sure other characters can capitalize on it but it is nice to have a fat juicy hitbox to hit neutral airs against.
Marth can intercept it with an up b stage spike, although I've never done it myself, I think it can be done with practice.
Marth can use agility to dodge attacks on the ground because his fast run speed and good dash dance, but he is slow in the air so i can see that.
Marth can punish quickly, but not terribly reliably due to the awkward tippers.
and a reflector doesn't really matter too much cause marth doesn't have projectiles.

I think to get around K. Rool you want to play the bait and wait game on his super armor attacks, use grabs to circumvent his super armor, and try to keep him above you as much as you can. As for his projectiles you may want to practice reaction timing with shielding or parrying his projectiles.

As for a more one sided matchup I think little mac v ivysaur and kirby vs fast swordies are more one sided matchups.
 

Mmmmello

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I have to vent. Excluding Olimar, I have never seen a more one-sided matchup than Marth vs King K. Rool.

King's projectiles can force the opponent to approach, yet with his super armor and ludicrously overpowered throws, his own approach is one of the most threatening in the game. His only weaknesses are:

- Combo food... but Marth is not a combo fighter.
- A recovery that some fighters can easily intercept... but not Marth.
- Using agility to dodge/jump/run around his attacks... which Marth can't do.
- Quick, reliable punishes... which Marth doesn't have.
- A reflector... which Marth doesn't have.

I'm at a point with Marth where I've mastered pivot canceling and consistently land tippers, but this is ridiculous. Marth does not have a single advantage or out in this matchup. The only successful playstyle I've found for Marth is playing defensively and waiting to intercept approaches. But of course, it's never a good idea to try intercepting King's attacks. All you can do is get out of the way.

Due to his poor momentum and unimpressive mobility, Marth can't approach for his life aside from when you have enough space to pivot cancel. And even if you do land a pivot-canceled tilt, you can STILL get punished if you don't land the tipper. Even successful jabs get punished. Even successful Dancing Blades get punished. I can't believe the developers did Marth this dirty in a game that's supposed to be Melee fanservice.

Marth has always had deep flaws--a zoner with no spacing tools, and missing a tipper is either laughably weak or a total whiff. But as of Smash Ultimate, his jab combos are gone, defense can no longer carry him, and sourspots are jokes. I've gotten so much better but it's still not enough for any stage but Battlefield.

My dude you have quite literally no clue your talking about. Like even your fundamental understanding of the character is wrong. This guy is not a zoner, and literally all his moves are disjoints the quintessential spacing moves of this game. Pivots and fsmash spacing literally mean nothing. What matters a lot more is how well you can space your aerials on shield and being tricky with your shield pressure so you can approach easily instead of dash dancing left and right waiting for them to approach like a scrub. Also you can get hella easy psudo combos with marth, you just gotta think a little about what options they're gonna use. Marth is agile as ****, he has literally the same movement as Lucina and shes S tier because of her movement and disjoints. I don't get how you can't fathom that its not the characters fault but how your using the character. Like the only real problem with this match up is Marth has to work a lot harder for his kills so heavy characters with good recoveries can be a bit of a nightmare. But K.Rule isn't even really an issue cause you can just drop off stage and counter him into the stage. Most of the time they don't expect it and they DI it wrong so it'll even stage spike. The recovery game from this point is you being patient and reacting to a far recovery or a recovery below stage. Never forget the only real issue with our boi Marth is he can't kill for ****.
 
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Mark The Page

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My dude you have quite literally no clue your talking about. Like even your fundamental understanding of the character is wrong. This guy is not a zoner, and literally all his moves are disjoints the quintessential spacing moves of this game. Pivots and fsmash spacing literally mean nothing. What matters a lot more is how well you can space your aerials on shield and being tricky with your shield pressure so you can approach easily instead of dash dancing left and right waiting for them to approach like a scrub. Also you can get hella easy psudo combos with marth, you just gotta think a little about what options they're gonna use. Marth is agile as ****, he has literally the same movement as Lucina and shes S tier because of her movement and disjoints. I don't get how you can't fathom that its not the characters fault but how your using the character. Like the only real problem with this match up is Marth has to work a lot harder for his kills so heavy characters with good recoveries can be a bit of a nightmare. But K.Rule isn't even really an issue cause you can just drop off stage and counter him into the stage. Most of the time they don't expect it and they DI it wrong so it'll even stage spike. The recovery game from this point is you being patient and reacting to a far recovery or a recovery below stage. Never forget the only real issue with our boi Marth is he can't kill for ****.
1. Throwing out attacks for "spacing" isn't threatening. It doesn't change the game state. It doesn't set up your next attack. It just reminds the opponent that you have hitboxes which they're already navigating around. Compare that to a projectile, which lets you act while it moves, allowing you to attack an opponent even if they dodge that attack. Projectiles increase your options. Try to bait me by throwing out random attacks and I'll just say, "Cool, I was already staying away from that, and now your character is temporarily immobile."

Disjoints are wonderful in theory, though, I'll give you that. But they're not the end-all-be-all in an actual fast-paced game with constantly moving pieces--you may have noticed that most swordfighters in Smash Bros have historically not been very good.

2. Marth is not agile. He is not able to halt his momentum and change direction quickly, nor does he have any attacks which move him in an advantageous way, aside from a pivot cancel that's only usable in non-ideal situations.

3. Your point about dropping down and using Counter sums up to "hope the opponent is bad and they mess up," which doesn't tend to be an especially helpful strategy.
 

Mmmmello

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Warning given for this post's insulting tone.
1. Throwing out attacks for "spacing" isn't threatening. It doesn't change the game state. It doesn't set up your next attack. It just reminds the opponent that you have hitboxes which they're already navigating around. Compare that to a projectile, which lets you act while it moves, allowing you to attack an opponent even if they dodge that attack. Projectiles increase your options. Try to bait me by throwing out random attacks and I'll just say, "Cool, I was already staying away from that, and now your character is temporarily immobile."

Disjoints are wonderful in theory, though, I'll give you that. But they're not the end-all-be-all in an actual fast-paced game with constantly moving pieces--you may have noticed that most swordfighters in Smash Bros have historically not been very good.

2. Marth is not agile. He is not able to halt his momentum and change direction quickly, nor does he have any attacks which move him in an advantageous way, aside from a pivot cancel that's only usable in non-ideal situations.

3. Your point about dropping down and using Counter sums up to "hope the opponent is bad and they mess up," which doesn't tend to be an especially helpful strategy.

Damn smash nerds flat out don't understand fightan basics. Projectiles are p buff in this game not going to mess around that point. But if you space your character to be within range of the other guy, if you wait for them to throw a projectile you can jump over it and punish them for it. And if your a half decent marth that should lead into at least a dtilt or a nair if not a combo. Also historically a sword character has been top tier in every smash besides 64. Melees got marth, brawl has meta knight (his disjointed are small but still a sword charcter!), and sm4sh's got cloud. Like you flat out have not a single clue what your talking about.

And marth is so agile, are we playing the same character??? Let's break some **** down. Lucina is the same character minus the tipper box. She has the same movement through and through, run speed, fast fall speed, even walk speed. And I guarantee you if you took both these characters and measures their dashes you'll see they are the same if not very similar lengths. So you are saying this S tier character has bad movement. Whose only claims to S tier are disjoints and movement. I'm going to suggest a very hard pill to swallow now.... your not good with marth. There is literally nothing more annoying than scrubs playing bad/ hard to use characters then complaining about their character. It is your fault for playing the character, play a different one if Marth's too hard. Don't complain git gud.
 

Mark The Page

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Also historically a sword character has been top tier in every smash besides 64. Melees got marth, brawl has meta knight (his disjointed are small but still a sword charcter!), and sm4sh's got cloud. Like you flat out have not a single clue what your talking about.
MK was top tier in Brawl because you could win entire matches by spamming the Mach Tornado. Having the smallest and weakest sword in the game was irrelevant. Also, nowhere did I say that no sword characters have ever been top tier. I said "most swordfighters in Smash Bros have historically not been very good." Link, Ike, Pit, Shulk, Robin... they all get bodied by fast characters like Sheik every time, despite those characters not having swords and disjoints. Disjointed hitboxes are nowhere near as valuable as good frame data and reliable follow-ups.

And marth is so agile, are we playing the same character??? Let's break some **** down. Lucina is the same character minus the tipper box. She has the same movement through and through, run speed, fast fall speed, even walk speed. And I guarantee you if you took both these characters and measures their dashes you'll see they are the same if not very similar lengths.
Speed =/= Agility

Marth/Lucina cannot effectively stop their momentum and change direction. Poor traction means you can't fine-tune your spacing, you're less able to navigate around your opponent without resorting to dodges, and reactions to the opponent's movement will be slowed down. They are fast, but they are not agile.

Additionally, when you bring Lucina into this like it's your big "Gotcha!" moment, as if I thought their movement options were somehow different, you just make an *** of yourself.

But sure, continue to intentionally misread and misrepresent my arguments if it makes you feel cool.
 

Mmmmello

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MK was top tier in Brawl because you could win entire matches by spamming the Mach Tornado. Having the smallest and weakest sword in the game was irrelevant. Also, nowhere did I say that no sword characters have ever been top tier. I said "most swordfighters in Smash Bros have historically not been very good." Link, Ike, Pit, Shulk, Robin... they all get bodied by fast characters like Sheik every time, despite those characters not having swords and disjoints. Disjointed hitboxes are nowhere near as valuable as good frame data and reliable follow-ups.


Speed =/= Agility

Marth/Lucina cannot effectively stop their momentum and change direction. Poor traction means you can't fine-tune your spacing, you're less able to navigate around your opponent without resorting to dodges, and reactions to the opponent's movement will be slowed down. They are fast, but they are not agile.

Additionally, when you bring Lucina into this like it's your big "Gotcha!" moment, as if I thought their movement options were somehow different, you just make an *** of yourself.

But sure, continue to intentionally misread and misrepresent my arguments if it makes you feel cool.
Ironically you completely missed my whole point when I compared the characters. I was asking how is agility an issue for Marth's neutral and not Lucina. How can top players space their moves with lucina, and not Marth. It's almost like there is a way to fine tune your spacing.... A mystery and unknown tech called jumping can stop your momentum of your dash as soon as 1 block on the training mode grid. Funnily enough your best moves that are safe on shield are available to you while jumping. So you can literally just fox-trot over to them and jump mid dash and air drift to space properly. So yeah having a long dash only hurts you if you didn't know you can cancel it with a jump. As far as dashing around in neutral that's all up to you knowing your dash range and the opponents options at different ranges, though full hoping on a spacing mistake gets you out of plenty of situations. And having a fast dash here does add to agility or w/e considering it's that speed that will let you escape punishes.

Sorry for misreading the part about sword chars, but like for real stop complaining and start training. If Marth's too hard play lucina, a lot of the problems your running into are not exclusive to Marth, and better players have already found ways around it. Agility or w/e isn't the issue you just don't have a feel for how the char moves.
 

Mark The Page

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Ironically you completely missed my whole point when I compared the characters. I was asking how is agility an issue for Marth's neutral and not Lucina. How can top players space their moves with lucina, and not Marth. It's almost like there is a way to fine tune your spacing....
Sorry, are you asking how proper spacing for Marth could possibly be more difficult than proper spacing for Lucina? Because I don't know how to help you if that's the concern here.
 

Guljy

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I was wondering do you guys think marth will surpass lucina eventually or is he forever to remain in the shadows (I really hope he can get better)
 

Flowen231

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Sorry, are you asking how proper spacing for Marth could possibly be more difficult than proper spacing for Lucina? Because I don't know how to help you if that's the concern here.
Optimal spacing for lucina is the same as marth. You always want to keep them at the tip because thats where you have the most breathing room. The difference is that you won't land every single tip as marth due to your opponent's own spacing and shield placement. I would say that marth doesn't reward you as consistently, but proper spacing is definitely not harder since "proper spacing" with both characters do best at the same range and hitbox placement.

I was wondering do you guys think marth will surpass lucina eventually or is he forever to remain in the shadows (I really hope he can get better)
With patches you just don't know. They may buff marth to the point where he's the better choice, they may nerf lucina to the point where its pointless to use her over marth, they may (but very unlikely) decide to give them both different frame data in order to further differentiate their roles. Its possible, but thats really something that we have no way of knowing.
 
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Mark The Page

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Optimal spacing for lucina is the same as marth. You always want to keep them at the tip because thats where you have the most breathing room. The difference is that you won't land every single tip as marth due to your opponent's own spacing and shield placement. I would say that marth doesn't reward you as consistently, but proper spacing is definitely not harder since "proper spacing" with both characters do best at the same range and hitbox placement.
In theory, sure. In practice, far from it. This is a moving game with moving pieces. Rarely ever will you have the luxury of deciding exactly where both players will be when your hitbox comes out.

When using Marth, you are incentivized to execute your attack as early as possible so you can land the tipper. You have to take that risk of missing because you attacked too early, because safely executing at a closer range won't reward you.

When using Lucina, you don't have to take that risk, because your range is less finicky. You don't have to attack at the earliest possible timing in your "when I think this attack will land" window. You can aim comfortably for that midpoint, and whether you judged that point to be a bit too early or a bit too late, you'll still get the same result. You won't be punished for human error.

You need to consider how this game works in real life--not this theoretical, optimal BS. If you had such flawless judgment and timing, you wouldn't be posting on Smashboards--you'd be busy winning every tournament you ever enter.
 

Flowen231

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In theory, sure. In practice, far from it. This is a moving game with moving pieces. Rarely ever will you have the luxury of deciding exactly where both players will be when your hitbox comes out.
You're half right there. It is a moving game with moving pieces, thats why no character can 100% guarantee that they will space perfectly ever. That, however, also means that spacing is inconsistent all around, lucina has the same issue where you can get punished much easier if you slip up and get too close.

When using Marth, you are incentivized to execute your attack as early as possible so you can land the tipper. You have to take that risk of missing because you attacked too early, because safely executing at a closer range won't reward you.

When using Lucina, you don't have to take that risk, because your range is less finicky. You don't have to attack at the earliest possible timing in your "when I think this attack will land" window. You can aim comfortably for that midpoint, and whether you judged that point to be a bit too early or a bit too late, you'll still get the same result. You won't be punished for human error.

You need to consider how this game works in real life--not this theoretical, optimal BS. If you had such flawless judgment and timing, you wouldn't be posting on Smashboards--you'd be busy winning every tournament you ever enter.
Thats just it though, you're making it sound like woe is marth who is the only spacing character that has to space well to be good. Thats the case for everyone, that level of incentive when it comes to spacing is a constant for any spacing heavy character. In fact, your scenario where marth HAS to worry more about spacing is only applicable in low/mid level play where people don't give a **** about spacing and just throw attacks out. At that level marths are the only ones worried about spacing because thats the entire character's stated gimmick.

Quick note btw, I do understand that people aren't perfect and you can't always land a tipper. Combined with the new smaller tipper, thats why marth is seen as worse in this game. Rest assured though, the execution is all the same, a marth player who starts using lucina will go nowhere but up and he will retain his spacing dicipline, I sure did ;p.

Also that was hella disrespectful. But by your own logic, if you have time to be ranting on smashboards about stuff you clearly don't know anything about, you may as well go practice, learn to space better, or drop the character if he's too much for you.
 
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Mark The Page

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You're half right there. It is a moving game with moving pieces, thats why no character can 100% guarantee that they will space perfectly ever. That, however, also means that spacing is inconsistent all around, lucina has the same issue where you can get punished much easier if you slip up and get too close.



Thats just it though, you're making it sound like woe is marth who is the only spacing character that has to space well to be good. Thats the case for everyone, that level of incentive when it comes to spacing is a constant for any spacing heavy character. In fact, your scenario where marth HAS to worry more about spacing is only applicable in low/mid level play where people don't give a **** about spacing and just throw attacks out. At that level marths are the only ones worried about spacing because thats the entire character's stated gimmick.

Quick note btw, I do understand that people aren't perfect and you can't always land a tipper. Combined with the new smaller tipper, thats why marth is seen as worse in this game. Rest assured though, the execution is all the same, a marth player who starts using lucina will go nowhere but up and he will retain his spacing dicipline, I sure did ;p.

Also that was hella disrespectful. But by your own logic, if you have time to be ranting on smashboards about stuff you clearly don't know anything about, you may as well go practice, learn to space better, or drop the character if he's too much for you.
Nah, I'm just saying I'm not a pro or a robot.

I get real sick of Marth elitists acting like range and pinpoint spacing are the only things that matter in a game that's too fast and dynamic for that level of reading, reacting, and decision-making. I get it--Marth is theoretically the best character in an imaginary Smash game where you never whiff or hit sourspots, and the player with longer reach always hits the player with shorter reach. But in real life, even the best players make many significant lapses in judgment in every match.
 

Locuan

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This is a friendly reminder to keep the discussion civil.
 
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Flowen231

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Nah, I'm just saying I'm not a pro or a robot.

I get real sick of Marth elitists acting like range and pinpoint spacing are the only things that matter in a game that's too fast and dynamic for that level of reading, reacting, and decision-making. I get it--Marth is theoretically the best character in an imaginary Smash game where you never whiff or hit sourspots, and the player with longer reach always hits the player with shorter reach. But in real life, even the best players make many significant lapses in judgment in every match.
I'm not even a marth elitist, I'm just pointing out that what marth does isn't any harder than what any other spacing character has to do. And yeah, you're right nobody plays robot perfect, I agree with that, we see it all the time.

What I'm trying to convey is that the actions you perform as marth are no harder than any other spacing character, marth himself is just too inconsistent by combination of imperfect players and the way his hitboxes were designed. But that doesn't mean that you have to work harder, it only means that your hard work will be rewarded less.
 

Mark The Page

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I'm not even a marth elitist, I'm just pointing out that what marth does isn't any harder than what any other spacing character has to do. And yeah, you're right nobody plays robot perfect, I agree with that, we see it all the time.

What I'm trying to convey is that the actions you perform as marth are no harder than any other spacing character, marth himself is just too inconsistent by combination of imperfect players and the way his hitboxes were designed. But that doesn't mean that you have to work harder, it only means that your hard work will be rewarded less.
And what I'm saying, again, is that this couldn't be further from the truth. Marth and Roy are the only spacing-heavy characters in the game who have no projectiles, traps, or even tethers for manipulating the opponent's range of motion.

And Roy doesn't even care, since a Roy player is almost never trying to create space--only close it. Marth has to create a very specific amount of space, but has little control over his opponent's movements aside from attacks that generally beat out shorthopping.

In past games, Marth players were able to cheat around his gimmick's sourspots with things like jab setups into tippers. But now that Marth is forced to play under his intended risk/reward playstyle, and with a game speed that makes precise judgments more difficult, he's dropped like a rock.
 

Locuan

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I think I'll give my two cents.

Every character has to take spacing into consideration especially in neutral. But let's get back to midrange characters particularly sword users. Most of them look to keep their opponents at max range. This allows their attacks to still be safe if shielded in certain situations even if their moves are negative on block. Ike comes to mind quickly especially MKLeo's playstyle.

Marth player representation has dropped if tournaments are any indication but Marth is still a solid character. However, as Flowen mentioned Lucina achieves the same playstyle and neutral but with more reward in a number of cases. To paraphrase Vipermoon Vipermoon in a discussion we had earlier this is due to certain mechanics of the game changing, Sakurai Angles and high BKB. This means that Lucina can also kill early so Marth players have generally gravitated to that character in order to achieve better results. Also Lucina is cool anyways~

Regardless, the more I play Marth the more I realize that his sweetspots are not difficult to land, the problem really lies in the sourspots especially at edgeguard situations. Sweetspots are particularly difficult to land there. A sourspot usually means that the opponent can come back to ledge and put the Marth player in disadvantage. You could also have a situation in neutral at low percents were a sourspot hit could still allow an opponent to punish but this is circumvented with good spacing. Dtilt is still godlike for both characters.

As for more personal experience do I think Marth is better than Lucina? No, I don't think that's the case with the current information I've gathered. On another note, I am not the one of the best players in my region at all, but Marth has allowed me to achieve much better results against the top players here, taking games from them here and there. Even so, Lucina is my go to character due to the importance of edgeguards in this game and the risk of my own mistakes in spacing. For me, this is even more important when facing characters in specific weight groups.
 
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Vipermoon

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I'll add that now we can read the hitbox data for all characters, we now know if the "tipper zones" truly have gotten smaller or larger.

The TL;DR:
- Fair and Bair (especially Bair) are a lot harder to tip, boo hoo for edge guards and Bair out of shield. Weird because some of Luci's most overpowered moves are Fair and especially Bair. Nair slightly smaller tipper zone as well (but all of Nair is horizontally much smaller due to an animation change, so it isn't noticed).
- All of Dancing Blade is way harder to tip.
- Jab1 and Shield Breaker are easier to tip.
- All other moveset hitbox data that affects the tippers zones are identical to 1.1.7 Smash 4.

So there are factors both in gameplay and game data that make Marth less useful.
 
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