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Vipermoon
It appears biggers to me in both non-attack animations and artwork. But we're talking a minute difference; it just doesn't seem too small in those situations like Brawl and Smash 4 felt (even the amiibo LOL). I'm not talking about hitboxes and reach or range at all. Remember Heavy Blade, the DB custom? It made Marth's sword appear way longer than it was. Just one of the examples. During an attack, the sword can be whatever size, so I'm not paying attention to that. I'm waiting on hitbox positions and sizes to figure all of that stuff out.
One thing I've been pondering over for a bit and still am not sure what you meant by it was...
I recall a few posts back you mentioned Marth's Falchion model looked somewhat bigger?
What exactly do you mean? How did you figure this out - do you have any comparison?
And if so, how does this (or not) affect his overall reach on moves?
Would appreciate responses to these because I've been wondering for a while now and my head hurts lol.
Ah I see now, thanks.
I hope Uair is easier to tipper, because that crap is weak now.
Aesthetically speaking i've been making comparisons between Sm4sh and Ultimate Marth, of course his design is still the same but he has several new details, an image for easier comparison:
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You can spot his hair is fluffier and a bit messy compared to sm4sh perfect hair. tiara is different, pauldrons have a dark blue shade and different ornaments, he has two belts, the cape is lighter, gauntlets now have belts, Falchion's hilt is slightly different, now it looks closer to canon games and the scabbard too.
All are small changes, but he looks more "battle ready' while keeping the noble style he always had, definitely a favorite of mine along with his FE Heroes artwork (the one made by Kozaki).
Ahh, brilliant, thanks!
Sakurai angle is still around, but its angle values are lower in this game. For example, aerial opponents take 38° knockback angles in this game vs. the 45° in Smash 4. (keep in mind character gravity is acting as soon as they're launched, so launches look lower than those numbers)
Tippers are definitely not harder. Some are easier, actually. Not only is it you as a player picking up a new character, but Marth meta/players start slow in every Smash game. Melee players didn't even know if Marth was better than Roy for a few years, Brawl players didn't think of Marth as a top-tier at first, and we know Smash 4's story. They need lots of time to figure their weird moveset out, ya know?
Yeah, I was considering Lucina, but I personally prefer Marth just because I like the tipper mechanic and the versatility it brings. Using stuff like sour F-Tilt and Fair to create tech-chases into sweetspots is pretty satisfying, even if Lucina is easier to play in these matchups. Only problem is that landing kills consistently at higher percents is hard outside of edgeguarding, especially since Up-Throw isn't as good as killing as it was in SSB4 and Jab cancels aren't a thing anymore.
I think they are easier. I... can't say that any are harder for me except most hits of Dancing Blade.
Uair is easier, all of the other aerials seem the same. Nair, since it has less range now, tippers closer but it feels like the same ratio. Dsmash seems easier. So does Dash Attack. What doesn't tipper easier is Usmash, which is BS (if you look at the hitbox positions for it, you'd be pissed too). The tilts feel the same, but maybe Utilt is easier if I was forced to pick one. You're saying that about Bair because of how it's always had severely differing range depending on the frame you hit on.
Up throw up air up air up air...
Down throw at high percents until you can killthrow with up throw at 180%
The combo food part isn't really a negative for Marth. Sure other characters can capitalize on it but it is nice to have a fat juicy hitbox to hit neutral airs against.
1. Throwing out attacks for "spacing" isn't threatening. It doesn't change the game state. It doesn't set up your next attack. It just reminds the opponent that you have hitboxes which they're already navigating around. Compare that to a projectile, which lets you act while it moves, allowing you to attack an opponent even if they dodge that attack. Projectiles increase your options. Try to bait me by throwing out random attacks and I'll just say, "Cool, I was already staying away from that, and now your character is temporarily immobile."
MK was top tier in Brawl because you could win entire matches by spamming the Mach Tornado. Having the smallest and weakest sword in the game was irrelevant. Also, nowhere did I say that no sword characters have ever been top tier. I said "most swordfighters in Smash Bros have historically not been very good." Link, Ike, Pit, Shulk, Robin... they all get bodied by fast characters like Sheik every time, despite those characters not having swords and disjoints. Disjointed hitboxes are nowhere near as valuable as good frame data and reliable follow-ups.
Speed =/= Agility
Ironically you completely missed my whole point when I compared the characters. I was asking how is agility an issue for Marth's neutral and not Lucina. How can top players space their moves with lucina, and not Marth. It's almost like there is a way to fine tune your spacing.... A mystery and unknown tech called jumping can stop your momentum of your dash as soon as 1 block on the training mode grid. Funnily enough your best moves that are safe on shield are available to you while jumping. So you can literally just fox-trot over to them and jump mid dash and air drift to space properly. So yeah having a long dash only hurts you if you didn't know you can cancel it with a jump. As far as dashing around in neutral that's all up to you knowing your dash range and the opponents options at different ranges, though full hoping on a spacing mistake gets you out of plenty of situations. And having a fast dash here does add to agility or w/e considering it's that speed that will let you escape punishes.
Sorry, are you asking how proper spacing for Marth could possibly be more difficult than proper spacing for Lucina? Because I don't know how to help you if that's the concern here.
Optimal spacing for lucina is the same as marth. You always want to keep them at the tip because thats where you have the most breathing room. The difference is that you won't land every single tip as marth due to your opponent's own spacing and shield placement. I would say that marth doesn't reward you as consistently, but proper spacing is definitely not harder since "proper spacing" with both characters do best at the same range and hitbox placement.
With patches you just don't know. They may buff marth to the point where he's the better choice, they may nerf lucina to the point where its pointless to use her over marth, they may (but very unlikely) decide to give them both different frame data in order to further differentiate their roles. Its possible, but thats really something that we have no way of knowing.
In theory, sure. In practice, far from it. This is a moving game with moving pieces. Rarely ever will you have the luxury of deciding exactly where both players will be when your hitbox comes out.
You're half right there. It is a moving game with moving pieces, thats why no character can 100% guarantee that they will space perfectly ever. That, however, also means that spacing is inconsistent all around, lucina has the same issue where you can get punished much easier if you slip up and get too close.
Thats just it though, you're making it sound like woe is marth who is the only spacing character that has to space well to be good. Thats the case for everyone, that level of incentive when it comes to spacing is a constant for any spacing heavy character. In fact, your scenario where marth HAS to worry more about spacing is only applicable in low/mid level play where people don't give a **** about spacing and just throw attacks out. At that level marths are the only ones worried about spacing because thats the entire character's stated gimmick.
Nah, I'm just saying I'm not a pro or a robot.
I'm not even a marth elitist, I'm just pointing out that what marth does isn't any harder than what any other spacing character has to do. And yeah, you're right nobody plays robot perfect, I agree with that, we see it all the time.
And what I'm saying, again, is that this couldn't be further from the truth. Marth and Roy are the only spacing-heavy characters in the game who have no projectiles, traps, or even tethers for manipulating the opponent's range of motion.
Vipermoon
in a discussion we had earlier this is due to certain mechanics of the game changing, Sakurai Angles and high BKB. This means that Lucina can also kill early so Marth players have generally gravitated to that character in order to achieve better results. Also Lucina is cool anyways~
