Social C. Falcon Social

[DuckPimp]

when I do a full long wavedash backwards next to the ledge trying to edgehog with falcon and marth (I know this isn't marth discussion forum but it happens with him too) i would perform a perfect wavedash but also continue to fall off stage without grabbing the ledge. I have experimented with fox and falco and that doen't happen with them no matter how horizontal/long the wavedash is; I also know that if you hold the stick down (fast fall) whe trying to edgehog you won't be able to grab the ledge with any character, however i'm pretty sure I realease the stick pretty quickly and the direction I input is not low angled/downwards. SO does anyone know why this happens with falcon and marth??

going off of what da shuffla said- learn to quickly fastfall as soon as you go off the stage- just flick the control stick down and release as quick as you can, and youll pop down to the edge super fast guaranteed- just make sure that youre not doing anything with the control stick to prevent you from grabbing the ledge, like holding down/away for too long

that way in particular, it doesnt matter what your wavedash angle is, you will always be able to grab edge if you do it correctly. just takes a couple minutes practice to implement it in normal play

its why top players seem to be magnetized when they wavedash to the ledge, because they all do this

 

[Da Shuffla]

Ramen noodles.

 

[Zhea]

Pivoting with Falcon isn't just cool looking, it's essential to his gameplay. Gives him more options, and it's always good to give CF more options.

Looking Guy: I suggest returning the stick to neutral after you wd. You're probably holding it backward for too long and skipping the ledge. Definitely don't hold it down, because, as you said, that will cause you to miss the ledge.

Pivot Nair is godlike.

 

[Twinkles]

I think I'm gonna start playing more sheik in friendlies to improve my patience and grab game. Especially regrab vs harder punish decision making...

Play GAR when you can

 

[bertbusdriver]

Play GAR when you can

Haha yeah he's solid af. Real good punish game and spacing. I have to get off so hard with falcon and space really carefully to keep up with him.

 

[Citizen Snips]

Just watched S2J vs. Hax.

FFS Johnny, just learn to edgeguard. It's not even hard.

 

[Da Shuffla]

For as long as I've been playing, I can't remember a set that I was more emotionally invested in.

 

[DuckPimp]

recently i was at a tourney where mlg was being projected on a big screen

just came off a bad loss and was watching the last armada mango game (the set in pools)

everyone screamed in despair when mango sd'd

 

[mYzeALot]

Do i just need to practice up-throw combos on characters such as ganon and marth? Or are there certain percentages where d-throw is better? Also, I have trouble comboing spacies, especially chaining up airs into knees. Does all of this just come with intense practice?

 

[Da Shuffla]

You'd get a much more exhaustive answer by visiting the index thread for those matchups.

Short version, I usually Dthrow at low percents, and start Uthrowing at around 30.

 

[KingDozie]

I need help with the Falcon vs marth mu? All he does is swing hes sword lol.

 

[Twinkles]

I need help with the Falcon vs marth mu? All he does is swing hes sword lol.

Snipe his jumps. Beat out dashdances with overshot aerials/grabs. Watch out for dtilt when you're dash-dancing.
Side-b is a good move in this MU. Gets under aerials ridiculously well and punishes improperly spaced DD's. Also leads to ridiculous combos. If Marth establishes he can handle side-B pretty well, then you just gotta be conservative with it, but it is a very strong mixup.

If you get any hit on Marth, be ready to combo him to death.

 

[DuckPimp]

the quickest levelup that you can do v marth is practice getting your throw game suuuper tight

 

[mYzeALot]

What characters do I want to u-throw knee for kill other than fast fallers? I've seen it done to characters such as marth, shiek, ganon, ect, but when I try it they are able to jump out. Am i just not doing it quick enough?

 

[Twinkles]

What characters do I want to u-throw knee for kill other than fast fallers? I've seen it done to characters such as marth, shiek, ganon, ect, but when I try it they are able to jump out. Am i just not doing it quick enough?

yes
marth/sheik are pretty free, uthrow -> knee may be tougher to call for ganon at higher percents

 

[KingDozie]

Snipe his jumps. Beat out dashdances with overshot aerials/grabs. Watch out for dtilt when you're dash-dancing.
Side-b is a good move in this MU. Gets under aerials ridiculously well and punishes improperly spaced DD's. Also leads to ridiculous combos. If Marth establishes he can handle side-B pretty well, then you just gotta be conservative with it, but it is a very strong mixup.

If you get any hit on Marth, be ready to combo him to death.

Thanks for the help

 

[bertbusdriver]

who's going to EVO??? I'll be there.

 

[Cerebral]

While I am not going to EVO, as I am still a scrublord, I have a question about Falcon aerials when SHFFL-ing.

I FF and do a nair just fine. but If I FF and do a fair or dair the move doesn't come out or doesn't hit because I am too low to the ground?

Am i fastfalling too quickly? I am supposed to even fast fall when doing short hop aerials other than nair and bair to hit opponents on the ground?

 

[fsh]

Knee, and stomp have weird timings for the fastfall that you have to deal with. Too late and your hitbox wont come out at all, too early and you're vulnerable to shield grabs. Just practice FFing later or getting the aerial out earlier. A good way to practice is, if you have the 20xx pack, make the CPU shieldgrab and try to SHFFL Aerial their shield > Jab. If you hit and they havent grabbed, you got the timing right.

Anyway, first post here guys o7. Relatively new Falcon player. I'm having trouble punishing Doc and characters of similar weight (they seem hard to combo). Could anyone give me some insight as to how I can unleash the falcon on their asses?

 

[Twinkles]

Get em in the air, spam uair. Space em and time them early and avoid making sucky trade

 

[carnivore]

While I am not going to EVO, as I am still a scrublord, I have a question about Falcon aerials when SHFFL-ing.

I FF and do a nair just fine. but If I FF and do a fair or dair the move doesn't come out or doesn't hit because I am too low to the ground?

Am i fastfalling too quickly? I am supposed to even fast fall when doing short hop aerials other than nair and bair to hit opponents on the ground?

You're just doing them slow. Knee and Stomp come out on frame 14 and 16 respectively. Falcon's quickest fast fall shorthop is 20 frames. Obviously if you think you're gonna hit a shield then you want the hit boxes to come out just as you land. But if you can't even get them out then just work on your speed.

 

[Kim Steinbach-Reif]

Hello everyone, I've recently come to a dilemma with my Falcon and the Fox matchup.

So recently I've gone all out with my Falcon and started training and improving myself however I am having an incredible amount of trouble with my brother's Fox and it's just frustrating to lose 10 games in a row, and winning based on lucky kills or SD's.

It may be only me being not near my brothers skill level and/or we're equal but Fox just counters me so well. This is mostly because of easy edgeguards or gimps with shine at edge which often results in low % kills.

1) What can I do against this, should I be simply more careful? Because I've noticed he likes to lure me to the edge and then shine me of and kill me with an easy edgeguard. I don't know how to counter this, since he usually either shoots lasers and/or hangs on the edge and waiting for me to approach. Do I need to get more patient and just be more careful?

2) Usually he likes to approach with a grab and once he gets it, hell brakes lose. He techchases me so well, and I feel Falcon's every option like roll and tech in place is utterly crap, because everytime I roll, left or right he regrabs, if I tech in place he still punishes me. It seems impossible to escape the "damage train" he rides. I try to mix up and not tech but he usally just dash attacks me and punish me anyway. What can I do?


Futhermore: based on a ton of matches against my brother's Fox I've become a bit salty and I know Falcon vs Fox is a very difficult matchup and then something came to mind: What if I pickup Marth as a counter, as my secondary? Does this make sense? Is it worth it or should I simply just push my limits and try till I can beat him consistently? Is it worth the trouble or would Marth be worth it?

TL;DR How do I stop getting easily edgeguard/gimped by Fox's shine and how do I escape from a throw, should I roll or tech in place or not tech? Also Is it worth either to continue as Falcon or pickup Marth as a secondary as a counter to Fox?

 

[DuckPimp]

i used to have a marth secondary for spacies. it went fine until i realized that in order to get to the upper echelons of falcon play, which is what i really wanted, i couldnt focus on any other character to the extent that i need to put toward falcon.

if its any consolation, its a bull**** matchup, sure. most matchups youll play as falcon are bull****, one way or another. and if its an even matchup, its just cuz the bull**** goes both ways.

for specifics, if he approaches with grab, you either arent being scary enough or you arent spacing well enough or you arent fast enough. keep stage control and be completely on control of your movement, so that if you're lured to the edge you can control yourself well enough to escape and still be a threat. in essence its just a matter of being faster and more in control, and that way itll be less of an issue that YOU cant deal with specific things, and more of a "which one of these things in my vast arsenal of options can deal with this"

having video would help, both in terms of helping us assess you, and also so that you can help yourself

sometimes things become so painfully obvious when you watch yourself it hurts

 

[kyaputenfarukon07]

Campy fox is a pain to deal with for any character to be honest. I think the best thing you can do is to get close to him but not too close. That should make him second guess laser camping you. Then you can probably bait approaches at this range from him since he likes to camp. By the way does he like to approach? If not scare him into approaching.

 

[Kim Steinbach-Reif]

Hello my Captains. There's a lot of things I've thought over the time I've played with my brothers Fox and would need some help to answer them, some are basic while others are not. Here we go!

Questions:
- Best Falcon stages when against Fox? (from best to worst)

- How and when to jab reset? Whenever I try it I'm either too far away to reach with my jab or to slow and he hits me with get up attack.

- What can I do when a Fox is jab resetting me into more grabs? It feels unescapeable.

- How to deal with Crouch Canceling Foxes? I find it difficult and I get punished rather easily whenever I get CC'd.

- Best way to edgeguard Fox? Should I wait and then try to punish or grab the ledge and either Knee/U-air when he lands?

- How do you moonwalk and grab ledge? I cannot do it, I am to far away or to close and fall over? Am I just too slow and therefor not getting a good distance with the moonwalk?

- How often when I get a grab near the ledge should I Down Throw -> Run out and Knee? I often miss due to my enemy DI away and I miss and then I get edgeguarded. Is it "high risk, high reward" kind of combo?

- How important is it to know: Hax Ledge Stall & Fast Fall Ledge Grab?

- How do you learn when to/not to use Platforms for wavelanding and implementing it in the game?

- Falcon is a very "reading" heavy character, does that come with experience or how can one train that?

- As a follow up question to the last one: Does one have to be rather creative with the punishes and combos or are most just for styling?

- How do I get better moonwalking to the left? I can do it easy when I run and moonwalk to the right but left is hard, why?

- When to implement wavedashes? I assume after a hit where you run in and bait a getup attack then wavedash and punish.

- When should Falcon Kick/Dash Attack be used or are they simply useless?

 

[Zhea]

Hello my Captains. There's a lot of things I've thought over the time I've played with my brothers Fox and would need some help to answer them, some are basic while others are not. Here we go!

Questions:
- Best Falcon stages when against Fox? (from best to worst)

- How and when to jab reset? Whenever I try it I'm either too far away to reach with my jab or to slow and he hits me with get up attack.

- What can I do when a Fox is jab resetting me into more grabs? It feels unescapeable.

- How to deal with Crouch Canceling Foxes? I find it difficult and I get punished rather easily whenever I get CC'd.

- Best way to edgeguard Fox? Should I wait and then try to punish or grab the ledge and either Knee/U-air when he lands?

- How do you moonwalk and grab ledge? I cannot do it, I am to far away or to close and fall over? Am I just too slow and therefor not getting a good distance with the moonwalk?

- How often when I get a grab near the ledge should I Down Throw -> Run out and Knee? I often miss due to my enemy DI away and I miss and then I get edgeguarded. Is it "high risk, high reward" kind of combo?

- How important is it to know: Hax Ledge Stall & Fast Fall Ledge Grab?

- How do you learn when to/not to use Platforms for wavelanding and implementing it in the game?

- Falcon is a very "reading" heavy character, does that come with experience or how can one train that?

- As a follow up question to the last one: Does one have to be rather creative with the punishes and combos or are most just for styling?

- How do I get better moonwalking to the left? I can do it easy when I run and moonwalk to the right but left is hard, why?

- When to implement wavedashes? I assume after a hit where you run in and bait a getup attack then wavedash and punish.

- When should Falcon Kick/Dash Attack be used or are they simply useless?

Falcon Index, Falcon Index and Falcon Index. Also FAQ thread in Melee Discussion.

 

[bertbusdriver]

Falcon Index, Falcon Index and Falcon Index. Also FAQ thread in Melee Discussion.

lol we need to set up a bot that posts it for us everytime someone with less than 20 posts asks a question here.

 

[kyaputenfarukon07]

Or some mod to change the name of the thread to make it more obvious
and control the index thread so it can be updated with new strategy info about the current meta

 

[Kim Steinbach-Reif]

Falcon Index, Falcon Index and Falcon Index. Also FAQ thread in Melee Discussion.

I know but it feels rather impractical to go search it there rather than asking. I feel there is no real thread or guide to how do versus a certain matchup or general questions, you more have to go there and look if there is something which can answer your question, and generally there aint ones which is the specific one you want to ask. Also the information there is rather outdated and years old.

 

[Zhea]

I have read through s2j, g-regs and scars threads. All of it. Twice. Everything useful on these boards is listed in that thread. In order, by character and topic. The faq thread in melee discussion also links to the 4 best threads regarding how smash works and improving on the front page. I don't think asking you to read those first is too big of an investment. This is a game where if you want to be regional level player; it's going to take 4 years of practice, minimum.

 

[Da Shuffla]

I know but it feels rather impractical to go search it there rather than asking. I feel there is no real thread or guide to how do versus a certain matchup or general questions, you more have to go there and look if there is something which can answer your question, and generally there aint ones which is the specific one you want to ask. Also the information there is rather outdated and years old.

The index thread does have plenty of match up-specific advice, and is organized as such.

It also answers other random questions

 

[bertbusdriver]

Hello my Captains. There's a lot of things I've thought over the time I've played with my brothers Fox and would need some help to answer them, some are basic while others are not. Here we go!

Questions:
- Best Falcon stages when against Fox? (from best to worst)
Depends on the fox. Dreamland and Battlefield usually IMO.

- How and when to jab reset? Whenever I try it I'm either too far away to reach with my jab or to slow and he hits me with get up attack.
Assuming you've set up the knockdown with a grab: Wavedash forward to close the gap after you dthrow or uthrow. Your jab will hit. Sometimes you won't make it in time to jab reset. Go for a different punish in that case.

- What can I do when a Fox is jab resetting me into more grabs? It feels unescapeable.
Smash DI the jab reset upwards and jump out. It's also possible to get a roll or getup attack even if you are hit by a jab on the ground. I think you have to have inputted it before getting knocked down. In any case, go for the smash DI as its more consistent and less punishable imo.

- How to deal with Crouch Canceling Foxes? I find it difficult and I get punished rather easily whenever I get CC'd.
Grab to rack up percent until he can't just CC in neutral. Also, he's getting a lot of mileage of CC because you're probably a little too predictable with when you'll try to hit him with an aerial. Try to elicit a response by threatening with nair outisde his range. Remember that he can't CC in the air.

- Best way to edgeguard Fox? Should I wait and then try to punish or grab the ledge and either Knee/U-air when he lands?
It depends. If you can hit him with knee or upair while he's offstage that's pretty ideal. Going to ledge is very nice in that you can go for invincible aerials with no risk of getting clipped by firefox or illusion. You need to evaluate situations individually depending on how far he is, how much time you have.

- How do you moonwalk and grab ledge? I cannot do it, I am to far away or to close and fall over? Am I just too slow and therefor not getting a good distance with the moonwalk?
IDK what you're doing wrong. Just try it more. If you post a video maybe we can help you. This skill is very very unimportant in the grand scheme of things.

- How often when I get a grab near the ledge should I Down Throw -> Run out and Knee? I often miss due to my enemy DI away and I miss and then I get edgeguarded. Is it "high risk, high reward" kind of combo?
Most competent players will DI out to avoid the dropzone knee in this day and age. You need to catch them off guard for it to connect

- How important is it to know: Hax Ledge Stall & Fast Fall Ledge Grab?
Being able to retain invincibility on the ledge is very important. Both ways of doing so are good, but knowing just one will go a long way at intermediate play. Eventually being able to do both is great though. I recommend just going for ledge hop regrab initially as hax dashing is much more difficult and SD prone.

- How do you learn when to/not to use Platforms for wavelanding and implementing it in the game?
It's largely from experimenting and from watching other people. Keep in mind that it's just another positional and movement option, so don't give it extra points just because it's different. It's good to be on the same vertical plane as some characters, not so much against others.

- Falcon is a very "reading" heavy character, does that come with experience or how can one train that?
You'll get better at it eventually. There are two facets:
1) Being able to punish properly when you guess correctly where he's going. ie: properly lining up the stomp->knee for the kill
2) Being able to predict/keep in mind your opponent's tendencies while maintaining the ability to perform #1). Techchase regrabs are great for this purpose against other fast fallers.
3) Getting (semi)guaranteed punishes when you can cover multiple options
#1 and #3 can be trained with 20xx hack pack

- As a follow up question to the last one: Does one have to be rather creative with the punishes and combos or are most just for styling?
A lot of unique situations in melee. A lot of things are DI dependent. Some things are guaranteed though. I would say generally go for the guaranteed stuff when it's an option unless the non guaranteed option has a SIGNIFICANTLY better payoff. Look at it from an expected value perspective of percentage likelihood you'll convert vs how much percentage it'll rack up or how likely you'll be to kill or put yourself

- How do I get better moonwalking to the left? I can do it easy when I run and moonwalk to the right but left is hard, why?
You're probably not doing moving the stick from right to left quickly enough. It's the same action for both directions but your thumb is just not moving as well for the left moonwalk. I have a similar issue, but it's not really worth fixing in light of other issues in my game that are more important than moonwalking. I can't emphasize enough how unimportant moonwalking compared to everything else.

- When to implement wavedashes? I assume after a hit where you run in and bait a getup attack then wavedash and punish.
Watch hax's falcon. He uses it as a microadjustment mechanism even mid dash dance. It allows you to move backwards while facing forward. That's pretty ****ing awesome. There are a lot of other situations where WD is important. Another would be WD OOS as a defensive escape option or as a punish (WD OOS -> grab or something) when they hit you with something unsafe on shield.

- When should Falcon Kick/Dash Attack be used or are they simply useless?
rarely used besides falcon kick for recovery. There are some dash attack shenanigans that happen when you're a little late initiating for anything else mid tech chase and also you can do dash attack->fall off ledge in very rare situations (edgeguarding). Overall neither move is very good as they can be crouch cancelled and lag is quite bad.

You're welcome. To be fair, I think a couple of your questions would have been difficult to find the answers to on smashboards. Please check out the index thread though. The information in there is still relevant, especially given that a ton of it is from Magus420, who checked his stuff via TAS... It's sorted by character. Maybe one day someone will decide to update that thread. I don't think I'm particularly up for that task though.

 

[Citizen Snips]

Hey bert, are you going to Zenith? If so we should def play


Also how the f*** do you punish a low % CC'ing Sheik? She ducks the grabs and the only thing I can think of, overshoot stomp, is risky and loses me stage position.

 

[bertbusdriver]

Hey bert, are you going to Zenith? If so we should def play

Not this year I already used a ton of vacation for APEX, EVO, MLG, and KoC3 in the past 8 months so probably not traveling again until Big House 4.

 

[Citizen Snips]

Hey, were you the one I played at Zenith 20whatever where you were goofing around with Mewtwo on FD and some crazy weird smash DI went on?

 

[bertbusdriver]

nah we played falcon dittos i'm pretty sure. it was a while ago. i wanna say zenith 2011 or 2012. i missed 2013.

 

[Citizen Snips]

Dang man we were bad then. Do you have any recorded matches? I want to see how you've improved

 

[bertbusdriver]

Dang man we were bad then. Do you have any recorded matches? I want to see how you've improved

http://youtu.be/jivLDUJBbF4
i stream semi-regularly on twitch.tv/bertbusdriver

 

[DuckPimp]

i shall be at zenith, barring any wisdom teeth bull**** that may or may not crop up- we'll see

 

[Citizen Snips]

i shall be at zenith, barring any wisdom teeth bull**** that may or may not crop up- we'll see

How will I recognize you? HOW WILL WE KNOW?