Brinstar Tournament Legality Topic

[Nicknyte]

Hello Everyone, my name is Nicknyte on this boards (Elvis IRL) and I am a member of the Arizona Smash Crew. I usually don't visit these boards often, and honestly, I'm usually trolling some other place on the boards, wary under the eye of a moderator, but this time, I am going to speak to my heart to an event that greatly distressed me during a tournament that sent me to losers.

Singles
1: Axe ($60.00)
2: GG7 ($30.00)
3: Forward ($10.00)
4: Okami
5: Rubyiris
5: Tai
7: Super Serious Stoned Kyle
7: Angel
9: Shivknight
9: Girku
9: Falcoty
9: Tag
13: Rusty
13: Nicknyte*
13: Tipper
13: Lvl9
17: Sunnycide
17: Jane
17: Japsicant
17: Book
*last stock, last match, Nicknyte got ceiling glitch lava glitched down when pressing an advantage and hitting my Sheik on Brinstar; we asked opinions of people; most were just astonished; Forward said, "It's the stage, oh well,"; but due to Shiv's influence, we decided to play the match again on Brinstar and I won (though Elvis was a little weary of the lava)
Note: This happened again during a MM between Elvis and I.

Now, I am not for banning stages. Each year, we whittle down the list of tournament legals until we usually end up with only 8 or 9, which is honestly crap, but we do this to have a respectable fighting environment fair to both players, even if some counterpicks are better for another person or character.

What I dislike, is a 100% performable glitch that a person can abuse in order to win. I don't mean like Super Wavedashing, or Moonwalking, or anything of the like. I'm talking about one that auto-KOs you. This glitch was discovererd during a tourney match with Bob$ and Raistiln. This is quoted from the youtube video in which this glitch is displayed.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WAZCVkox3I

From our testing, it would seem that this Brinstar Lava Glitch is 100% cause-and-effect from doing the following: You have to hit an enemy shield while on the ground in such a way as to push off the ground (effectively limited to special B moves that can move your character, but ones like phantasm or falcon kick don't seem to do it). The spike flag gets reset if you hit anything else like their shield a second time (making it less likely for moves that hit multiple times from causing this), or if you land on (or are hit into) the ground, or grab an edge. As you can see in the last fox clip, doing other moves or getting hit doesn't reset the flag though. There are some other moves that are a bit trickier, like mario/doc/luigi's down-B I believe.

Raistlin had a tournament match with Bob$, the second match he counter-picked Brinstar, and on the last stock Bob$ was Marth, charging a neutral B on a sleeping jigglypuff, hit the shield, slid off, and got killed at 0% from the lava. Special thanks to Raistlin for describing the situation to me so I could explore this with others in our room at the Ramada (Shielding by HarrietTheGuy, and input from RockCrock, Rohins, DarkSonic, Raistlin, and UberIce).

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=241335

The glitch was documented in the video boards (link above) almost more than a year ago, but I believe no serious discussion was set forth from it, so I inquire you, community, should this stage stay legal, knowing that a glitch like this exists on it, killing you at any percentage? Ultimately, should Brinstar stay legal? Thanks.

 

[phanna]

What I dislike, is a 100% performable glitch that a person can abuse in order to win.

Uh, I hate to burst your bubble, but this isn't a glitch that I can perform on you and cause you to die. It's something I have to do to myself to cause me to lose. Should we ban any stage that I can SD on? My video and thread are to let people know to avoid doing this, if you do this it's your own fault

Brinstar: the acid comes in set waves (very low, low, medium, high), and the stage is a balanced counter-pick, on par with rainbow cruise or poké floats for the mixup and variety provided.

Just my 2 cents, not trying to quash your topic. I just happen to like the stage, and don't think the acid glitch is a reason to ban it (it's just an extension of the random ceiling glitch, in fact that's exactly what it is, it's not even specific to Brinstar: if you are in random spike mode on any stage with a hazard, that hazard will hit you as a random spike).

Note 2: Brinstar is now banned between Sheik and Luigi (if a Sheik player picks Brinstar, and someone counterpicks with Luigi, Sheik must change their stage pick

LOLWUT most random and pointless "rule" I've ever heard

This glitch was discovererd during a tourney match with Bob$ and Raistiln.

Sorry if I was misleading; I made the video based on testing persuant to Raistlin describing that match, but I know the acid glitch has happened people before 2009 of course!

 

[Nicknyte]

Yea. I agree, with the rule part, but at the same time I didn't know this existed, but I plan to make everyone aware it does. Do you think its kinda messed up knowing that you could exploit this and "not knowing the unknown" is a valid reason for a stage to be legal? Its an SD, sure, but what stage allows a stage hazard to do this to you mulitple times causing you to die? Just brinstar. I am not saying the stage to be banned, but to question it's legality. I like brinstar actually. :D

 

[Tee ay eye]

Yea. I agree, with the rule part, but at the same time I didn't know this existed, but I plan to make everyone aware it does. Do you think its kinda messed up knowing that you could exploit this and "not knowing the unknown" is a valid reason for a stage to be legal? Its an SD, sure, but what stage allows a stage hazard to do this to you mulitple times causing you to die? Just brinstar. I am not saying the stage to be banned, but to question it's legality. I like brinstar actually. :D

You can also fall through the transformations on Pokemon Stadium sometimes

 

[Nicknyte]

You can also fall through the transformations on Pokemon Stadium sometimes

True, but it's random as hell, this is not. I wouldn't make this topic without taking that silly glitch into account. But what do we do if that happens? Do we start over or do we continue on like nothing happens.

Before anyone says, no Johns, mind you this is a discussion topic. :D

 

[Curlz]

Does Norfair do the same thing since it has a stage hazard?

 

[Nicknyte]

I think Curlz response just made me derp Over 9000 times.

Likewise, damn you phanna for getting this song stuck in my head relative to this topic.
http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/199351

 

[Rubyiris]

Phanna: The "ceiling" glitch is not random, nor is it a ceiling, and it's effects can be consistently reproduced in normal game play.

If you're going to try and use things as examples, as least be correct about them.

 

[Ripple]

oh boy, its this thread again...

 

[The Star King]

Phanna: The "ceiling" glitch is not random, nor is it a ceiling, and it's effects can be consistently reproduced in normal game play.

If you're going to try and use things as examples, as least be correct about them.

It's funny, because phanna was the one who first posted a vid explaining it.

Anyhow, I also think that Brinstar should be banned, but NOT because of this glitch LOL. I agree pretty much with everything phanna said, except the second paragraph saying that Brinstar is a balanced counterpick.

 

[Rappster]

so you're saying that against luigi, someone can shield his side b and he'll guarenteed fall through the acid?

 

[Nicknyte]

No. I didn't write that. Know what, Im jsut gonna delete that second note. It deviates the point Im trying to get accross.

 

[Dark Hart]

You can also fall through the transformations on Pokemon Stadium sometimes

I lost a doubles tournament set like that once.

Fire transformation

**** was gay

and I got combo'd into from sheik's fair

**** was exxxxxxxtra gay

 

[phanna]

If you're going to try and use things as examples, as least be correct about them.

Lol. What do you call it if not random spike or ceiling glitch? And what did I say about it that was incorrect?

 

[Pi]

Lol. What do you call it if not random spike or ceiling glitch? And what did I say about it that was incorrect?

you didn't ask him permission to post first

 

[rhan]

It should be banned for how ridiculous the stage is.

 

[phanna]

I did say "random ceiling glitch" which was me b@stardizing terms (random spike and/or ceiling glitch). I suppose the proper term would be something like "arbitrary ground-hit induced inverted trajectory flag not yet cleared by a normal ground or ledge stance or respawning / new match" or the like, to be more precise for people like rubyiris.

Spoiler

ps b@stardizing is a real, dictionary word. Forums should not filter our the part of the word that refers to a child born out of wedlock.

I agree pretty much with everything phanna said, except the second paragraph saying that Brinstar is a balanced counterpick.

Oh and I should clarify, by "a balanced counterpick" I mean it's a counterpick that clearly gives some characters an advantage over others, therefore making it a viable counter-pick over otherwise "neutral" (hah) stages. It's just not imbalanced / unplayably favorable in my opinion (any counterpick isn't going to be a neutral by definition, the purpose of the stages is to give one character in a given match-up the advantage, which shouldn't overcome the ability to win or lose a set).

Anyway back on topic: The stage moves in a set formation, like Yoshi's story or rainbow cruise. Pokemon stadium or dreamland have more of a random element than either of these stages. I absolutely cannot fairly conceive Brinstar being globally banned.

 

[Signia]

loooool is this in reference to Okami's matches against Elvis? **** happened twice in two sets.

 

[Rubyiris]

i still call it the "ceiling glitch" due to a lack of a better, more accurate term, despite there not being any invisible ceiling whatsoever.

I mostly disliked your use of "random" since it, in no way, shape, or form, is random.

 

[Dark Sonic]

alright here's how to avoid this glitch EVER happening to you...ever.

Do not us an grounded attack that would allow you to slide off a platform against a shielding opponent while on the very edge of a platform while the lava is high enough to hit you if you were to fall off.

Hell, that's 10x easier than avoiding falling through pokemon stadium, yet there's so a thread *****ing about this?

 

[Raistlin]

btw when that killed bob$ it was definitely the most shocking ending I've ever had in a tourney match.

also, brinstar is awesome

 

[BigD!!!]

i'd be more pissed about the levels i can side b off of with falcon fox or falco

at least those you dont have to tell the other person what they need to do in order to help you kill yourself

 

[Doc King]

I'm actually for banning this stage because it kindof ruins the whole gimping/edge guarding game of Melee and the zero death acid spike thing makes it a highly glitch relied stage and is basically like a scrub stage. To be honest I would rather have Mute City than Brinstar as a tourney stage (at least for singles, looks too small for doubles).

 

[LatexRhombus]

the only legitimate reason to ban a stage is if you can accurately categorize it as inherently unfair due to excessive randomness or easily overly-exploitable features...

the brinstar lava moves in a set pattern and any stage issues people may face apply evenly to all characters, although different characters have different means of coping with said issues...

the mentioned glitch is well-documented and easily avoidable, and again, applies equally to all players...

there is really no case for banning the stage, but if you hold a tournament, do whatever you want

 

[Doc King]

Well brinstar's lava is not a random/crazy thing that completely destroys the game. At this point I'm not sure wether it should be banned or not.

 

[Let It Riot]

the only legitimate reason to ban a stage is if you can accurately categorize it as inherently unfair due to excessive randomness or easily overly-exploitable features...

the brinstar lava moves in a set pattern a

Not sure what you mean by a pattern, yes the movements the lava takes is not random, but the timing between the movements is random. So Brinstar's main stage hazard has a large component of randomness to it.

Also I disagree with the the statement that a stage needs to be unfair to be banned. Stages aren't something that we need to maximize, unlike characters. There are only so many stages that can be played in a match, and so the most fair stages are the only ones that should be put into play. I'm not saying brinstar should be banned, but there isn't a huge reason to have such stringent policies towards banning stages. The game doesn't really lose depth from removing a stage that is very biased towards certain characters, but it does make the game overall more competitive.

 

[phanna]

Not sure what you mean by a pattern, yes the movements the lava takes is not random, but the timing between the movements is random. So Brinstar's main stage hazard has a large component of randomness to it.

component of randomness is also present in Pokemon Stadium's transformations, Dreamland wind, and Fountain of Dream's platforms..

Also I disagree with the the statement that a stage needs to be unfair to be banned. Stages aren't something that we need to maximize, unlike characters. There are only so many stages that can be played in a match, and so the most fair stages are the only ones that should be put into play. I'm not saying brinstar should be banned, but there isn't a huge reason to have such stringent policies towards banning stages. The game doesn't really lose depth from removing a stage that is very biased towards certain characters, but it does make the game overall more competitive.

Certainly ridiculously unfair stages aught to be banned. And the most fair stages are neutrals. This is the guiding principle over time.

You say we can remove a kind of "ehh" stage without affecting the game overall, in fact making the game more competitive. I disagree, if we only leave the stages where high tier characters don't have a disadvantage, it decreases the competitiveness of the game by making high tier characters even better. So you aren't going so far as to say Brinstar should be banned, but I would disagree that it should even consider being banned, even as a not-unfair stage, but as a not-totally-balanced-for-all-characters stage. That's precisely why it should remain a counter-pick. That's the point of counter-picks. Otherwise sets would be played on just the neutral stages.

 

[LatexRhombus]

yea, by pattern all i meant is the movement, obviously haha

and the reason i would argue that a stage has to have a certain degree of randomness or exploitability to be banned would be the idea that if there was no universal underlying reason to ban stages, it could end up being done more arbitrarily like in this case for people who just can't change their play style enough to avoid a really easily avoidable glitch that they can learn plenty of information about

yes, only so many stages can be played in a match, but again, without a universally set reason to ban a stage, i just see the more stages available for counterpicking as increasing the need for players to develop more solid mastery of the game, with respect to diversifying their abilities or becoming "m2k-like" with one character. even though only a certain number of maps can be played in a match, there is really no reason why the number of available maps would have to be limited to that number.


agreed about the randomness though, the timing issue with the lava carries a certain degree of randomness, i would just say it isn't an "unfair" amount of randomness and that would be my basis for saying to keep it, but then again, i don't really care....lol if someone holding a tournament wants to ban it, it's their tournament and people can choose to go or not as well as agree or not, personally i wouldn't ban it though lol

edit: phanna posted faster than me and what he wrote is shweet.