Brawlplusery Codeset / Competitive Play Discussion

[Sukai]

Brawlplusery Codeset / Competitive Play Discussion.​

See next post for TL;DR guidelines on this thread.
The general purpose of this thread is to discuss competitive play and any new ATs discovered through Brawl+, I also need to iterate that this is for official builds only, nightly builds should not and do not apply here.

On the AT discussion, make sure you are descriptive in your posts, including a name (that's not completely ********), what it does and how to do it (obviously), any and all characters that it works on/for, and a video if possible. ATs are Advanced techniques or described to what Nintendo didn't teach us in the manuals or guides. Please do not list combos, those are a different subject. In the meantime, I'll list the standing ATs (including the ones that Brawl+ shares with Brawl) that have been established and discovered--once I'm a bit less busy.​

Tornado Cancelling (Meta Knight)
Using the Mach Tornado and sliding off a platform or ledge, although the animation stops, the hitbox remains for a brief moment. Video

Competitive Play Discussion speaks for itself, you can talk about tournament results/placings, chaingrabs or infinites here--not to complain or demand a change, just to point out or intelligently discuss among other competitive players. Competitive Play can include wifi, but make sure you say it is wifi, so to not confuse it with offline, which is a completely different realm of play. Creative ideas and suggestions should go in the Brawl+ official thread, as Almas points out. However make sure your suggestions are sound, thought out and overall written well, or you'll be infracted. For just discussion or discovery, this is the place.​

I'll update the thread when/if anything is discovered, no Johns.

 

[Almas]

The Brawlplusery Codeset thread is not a discussion thread. Post any minor issues or random musings that pertain to competitive play here.

Please use the codeset thread solely for your thoughts of the balance, in a structured form, with detailed reasoning and suggestions.

I'm also using this thread as a repository for all the junk I find in the Codeset thread. Which means that if I've moved your post, I don't like you, and you would do well to stop posting replies of the nature you did in the thread.

Quoted messages preceeding these responses:

I found a glitch. As Lucario, if I up-B into the ground, I am unable to up-B again until I leave the ground.

Turn tap jump on, it'll work then. It was in normal Brawl, it's nothing new.

Hmm. I was playing with my friend Hinkage and he used MK's whorenado and MK was put on the layer above his effects. I replicated it later on, so I can youtube it if anyone wants it.

That's what we get for playing on Flat Zone 2 I guess xD

 

[shanus]

Tap Jump on only works as a solution if you have slow fingers fyi

All it serves to do is jump cancel you upB. If you do it quickly from the ground with tamp jump on and don't leave the ground, you'll know you did it right as you can upB twice, and then cant upB again until you jump.

It is far from a real solution.

 

[Deleted member]

And besides, we shouldn't *have* to have TJ on.

 

[Revven]

Tap Jump on only works as a solution if you have slow fingers fyi

All it serves to do is jump cancel you upB. If you do it quickly from the ground with tamp jump on and don't leave the ground, you'll know you did it right as you can upB twice, and then cant upB again until you jump.

It is far from a real solution.

And besides, we shouldn't *have* to have TJ on.

I know it's HARDLY a solution, I was just telling him why it happens. It has to be fixed, I know that, I wasn't implying it didn't need to be. =\

 

[hinkage]

Flat Zone 2 > you FaTSON

 

[goodoldganon]

This thread should be bumped. It's too bad Almas dumped random junk posts from the Plussery here, but hopefully the posters will edit their posts. Their are new ATs in B+ guys! Point em out!

 

[GuruKid]

Guess I'll kick off some discussion.

Correct me if I'm wrong (I did not see it anywhere on the Workshop forum), but there still hasn't been an "official" or "Recommended" stage list for tournament play; the past tournaments held usually just went with what the TO felt as comfortable for the region/state involved, which can be argued to be decided off of Regular Brawl impressions. The topic guidelines for this thread seem muddled, but I think this is a legit topic for this thread. With an official set recently out, it should be established.

And so I ask... what stages do you guys see as legal? Should certain stages be installed/removed from tournament play? Should certain stages be put in a different category?

To start things off, I included a list of what the usual stage list (more or less) looks like, at least in the region I'm in.

Neutral Stages:

* Final Destination
* Battlefield
* Smashville
* Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
* Lylat Cruise
* Pokemon Stadium 2
* Luigi's Mansion


Counterpick Stages:

* Delfino Plaza
* WarioWare
* Frigate Orpheon
* Battleship Halberd
* Castle Siege
* Rainbow Cruise
* Brinstar
* Pokemon Stadium

Thoughts?

 

[Mattnumbers]

I still don't see why Rainbow Cruise is a CP.

And why is WW a counterpick instead of neutral, is it just the small boundaries? Because I think it is a perfectly fine neutral.

 

[Sukai]

Yeah, I believe it's because of the boundaries.

Why is Rainbow Cruise a counter pick? Because it's constantly moving, which exempts it from being a neutral, however it moves at a steady non random pace without hazards, which exempts it from being banned.

 

[shanus]

The boundaries for WW are wider now if you guys didn't notice

 

[OmniOstrich]

Guess I'll kick off some discussion.

Correct me if I'm wrong (I did not see it anywhere on the Workshop forum), but there still hasn't been an "official" or "Recommended" stage list for tournament play; the past tournaments held usually just went with what the TO felt as comfortable for the region/state involved, which can be argued to be decided off of Regular Brawl impressions. The topic guidelines for this thread seem muddled, but I think this is a legit topic for this thread. With an official set recently out, it should be established.

And so I ask... what stages do you guys see as legal? Should certain stages be installed/removed from tournament play? Should certain stages be put in a different category?

To start things off, I included a list of what the usual stage list (more or less) looks like, at least in the region I'm in.

Neutral Stages:

* Final Destination
* Battlefield
* Smashville
* Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
* Lylat Cruise
* Pokemon Stadium 2
* Luigi's Mansion


Counterpick Stages:

* Delfino Plaza
* WarioWare
* Frigate Orpheon
* Battleship Halberd
* Castle Siege
* Rainbow Cruise
* Brinstar
* Pokemon Stadium

Thoughts?

At the tournament I hosted I used stage striking and this list:

Neutral Stages:

* Final Destination
* Battlefield
* Smashville
* Wi-Fi Room (New Pork)
* Pokemon Stadium 2

Counterpick Stages:

* Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
* Lylat Cruise
* Luigi's Mansion (Deadlands)
* Delfino Plaza
* WarioWare
* Frigate Orpheon
* Battleship Halberd
* Castle Siege
* Brinstar
* Pokemon Stadium

The stage list was conservative, yes, but I never heard a single complaint aside from 1 person who want to use norfair for gay tether camping.

I previously have had Norfair, Pictochat, and Rainbow Cruise legal, but those stages just get abused for the most part. Rainbow Cruise is picked by MK, and Kirby, and thats basically it. I feel no reason to support two of the best characters and allow them to easily win all their CP's against the other potential high/top tiers (marth, squirtle, fox, falcon, snake).

Pictochat is, to quote a friend, "The stage you pick if you dont think you can win." People often pick the stage because the hazards have the potential to do tons of damage, and land a few KOs. The two spike transformations, missiles, fire, and rail kart always change the outcome, not to mention the 5-10 walls that appear.

===============

What is going to be done about kirby? Right now he is hands down the best gimping character, on top of one of the best recoveries, and he has ridiculous combos from 0-50 out of grab. His bair alone shuts down so many characters by out spacing and clanking several projectiles, its the best WoP right now as well.

 

[jenk]

I just switched to the new gecko and codeset but when i run brawl+ it changes my resolution and i have bad framerate drops whats going on ( i use a component cable and PAL if it helps)

 

[jenk]

double post sorry

 

[stingers]

yeha ivysaur's razor leaf was seriously fine how it was before. sure it was fast, but it was easy to powershield. it definitely wasn't unpunishable, ivy needed it.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Not to mention easy to break with just about any move. Ivy did indeed need it to keep people from getting in-between his moves and comboing + gimping him so easy.

Also I think if you were going to speed up one move to compensate for the 1.5x nerf I'd rather it be grounded Up-B then Utilt. A less punishable or faster grounded up-B would be way more helpful in covering his blind spots then Utilt, which already combo'd fine before.

 

[KiddyDong]

I think the site is down, or at least for me. Can someone upload the full premade sd package? US version

 

[ShiroiKen]

I just switched to the new gecko and codeset but when i run brawl+ it changes my resolution and i have bad framerate drops whats going on ( i use a component cable and PAL if it helps)

jenk, try to force 60Hz in Gecko. That way, it will persist in 480p.

 

[Roxas215]

Opinions on new codeset:

Ivysaur's razor leaf was toned down too much. Its not very useful anymore. Its easy to punish, barely covers him and doesn't setup for much at all. 1.35x was already crippling him but at least it was usable.

I still think neither Kirby nor Squirtle need to be nerfed at all. There are better characters out there like Shiek, Diddy and Pikachu. Not saying any of them need to be nerfed but I think a lot of people are just aggravated at how safe Squirtle and Kirby are. That being said, damage output nerfs hardly solve that problem, and Kirby's Fsmash is already punishable as it is so I hope you don't go that route. I also don't think his Nair was really worth changing over an Fsmash and Utilt nerf.

Sonic's Usmash spike should make a return with slower startup, and I don't like his new nair at all.

I really think some characters are getting singled out too hastily in terms of nerfs and that they should be given second thoughts. If not now, sometime later in the metagame.

WHAT????? You think diddy and pika are better then Squirtle?? Yes diddy has a insane on stage game but he is by far the most easiest char to edgeguard in the game. It is quite normal to gimp diddy at around 50-60% Also pika has lots of combos and easy thunder setups but is also very easy to ko. No way are they better then squirtle.

Also it's funny how everyone hated ivy's faster leaves and are now complaining about it being slower. As a ivy main i loved her fast razor leaves and i was quite sad to seem them go(especially since you can jab through them) But the majority wanted the leaves toned down so i accepted it. Now people are complaining. I don't think we will ever get ivy right. lol

 

[Blank Mauser]

WHAT????? You think diddy and pika are better then Squirtle?? Yes diddy has a insane on stage game but he is by far the most easiest char to edgeguard in the game. It is quite normal to gimp diddy at around 50-60% Also pika has lots of combos and easy thunder setups but is also very easy to ko. No way are they better then squirtle.

Also it's funny how everyone hated ivy's faster leaves and are now complaining about it being slower. As a ivy main i loved her fast razor leaves and i was quite sad to seem them go(especially since you can jab through them) But the majority wanted the leaves toned down so i accepted it. Now people are complaining. I don't think we will ever get ivy right. lol

Squirtle's recovery is honestly not so much better than Diddy's. If you use Diddy's recovery well he has the potential to recover from farther then Squirtle can, and has two spikes to punish with. How exactly is Pikachu easier to KO then Squirtle? Squirtle's mobility only helps him so much, hes still one of the lightest characters in the game. Pikachu's recovery is also way better.

Not to mention these characters have just as much if not more damage potential, great KO setups, better range, and projectiles to boot. They can put the pressure on so much better than Squirtle.

I have made multiple posts about Ivysaur's leaves, and have always been against nerfing them because Ivysaur needs them to fight with her disadvantages. They're not even that good as projectiles, but can also be helpful during recovery, both to knock people off ledges and to turn around with them and use her superior bair to get back on stage. Anyone with decent mobility just wrecks Ivysaur honestly, and I think this is the 3rd time Ivy's leaves have been nerfed. Its just unsettling that Falco (Who probably has much more player backing) who has a better projectile and is already an amazing character has enough support to gain a combo-centric shine, but giving Ivysaur a usable projectile gets people all riled up. Obviously we must always see the worst of every change, and never the actual benefits and changes.

 

[CountKaiser]

I'm pretty sure the hop from Falcon's aerial side b was always there, at least I think it was. Also, why are you using it to recover? It never struck me as a good recovery move.

EDIT: What we must realize is that when people see something OP, they will first whine for a nerf before they try to find a way around it. It's never a good idea to give in to the masses immediately. Knee-jerk nerfs have a habit of ruining something good. (see TF2's dead ringer)

 

[Roxas215]

Squirtle's recovery is honestly not so much better than Diddy's. If you use Diddy's recovery well he has the potential to recover from farther then Squirtle can, and has two spikes to punish with. How exactly is Pikachu easier to KO then Squirtle? Squirtle's mobility only helps him so much, hes still one of the lightest characters in the game. Pikachu's recovery is also way better.

Not to mention these characters have just as much if not more damage potential, great KO setups, better range, and projectiles to boot. They can put the pressure on so much better than Squirtle.

I have made multiple posts about Ivysaur's leaves, and have always been against nerfing them because Ivysaur needs them to fight with her disadvantages. They're not even that good as projectiles, but can also be helpful during recovery, both to knock people off ledges and to turn around with them and use her superior bair to get back on stage. Anyone with decent mobility just wrecks Ivysaur honestly, and I think this is the 3rd time Ivy's leaves have been nerfed. Its just unsettling that Falco (Who probably has much more player backing) who has a better projectile and is already an amazing character has enough support to gain a combo-centric shine, but giving Ivysaur a usable projectile gets people all riled up. Obviously we must always see the worst of every change, and never the actual benefits and changes.

Diddy don't have more damage potential then squirtle if u avoid the bananas. Also diddy kinda gets wrecked by his own bananas even more now in brawl+ And diddy is just at such a disadvantage when off the stage it's crazy. Even NL thinks diddy needs his auto ledge back.


I do agree whole heartily about the ivy falco thing and it's like you said probably due to backing from more players.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Diddy don't have more damage potential then squirtle if u avoid the bananas. Also diddy kinda gets wrecked by his own bananas even more now in brawl+

Even without bananas Diddy has some sick semi-pillar combos. All his tilts and aerials are combo friendly, his bananas just help him setup for those combos easier and they are harsh when Diddy uses them right. I think the only thing that MAY hold him back is that hes easier to combo himself.

 

[Roxas215]

Even without bananas Diddy has some sick semi-pillar combos. All his tilts and aerials are combo friendly, his bananas just help him setup for those combos easier and they are harsh when Diddy uses them right. I think the only thing that MAY hold him back is that hes easier to combo himself.

Squirtle as a char is combo friendly. Every tilt combos and once your in the air good luck. Mexi got 2nd at btl and i think chibo told me that was his 1st time playing brawl+(He beat spammers fox) Also water gun is godly now with no asl.

Dont get me wrong i do agree diddy is beast on stage. But i just don't think he is better then squirtle.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Squirtle as a char is combo friendly. Every tilt combos and once your in the air good luck. Mexi got 2nd at btl and i think chibo told me that was his 1st time playing brawl+(He beat spammers fox) Also water gun is godly now with no asl.

Dont get me wrong i do agree diddy is beast on stage. But i just don't think he is better then squirtle.

Just because Squirtle is easier to pick up doesn't mean hes a better character overall. I don't think Diddy has really been in the spotlight much.

And really, of course Squirtle is going to combo Fox. Everyone combos Fox. Squirtle is overrated honestly. Just picking him up and winning is one thing, but learning to play against him is another.

 

[Plum]

I'm pretty sure the hop from Falcon's aerial side b was always there, at least I think it was. Also, why are you using it to recover? It never struck me as a good recovery move.

EDIT: What we must realize is that when people see something OP, they will first whine for a nerf before they try to find a way around it. It's never a good idea to give in to the masses immediately. Knee-jerk nerfs have a habit of ruining something good. (see TF2's dead ringer)

Yeah really, going to have to agree with Kaiser here.
Why would you be using it to recover? You can sweetspot the edge with it, that's really the only time you go for it. Using it to actually try and spike the opponent is more than often a bad move because if you miss it leaves you open for punishment, and if you hit there is no guarantee that you live anyways. The hop gives him more of a chance, but a bad (and very situational move) is always going to be that.

(Dead Ringer? Pssh. Cloak and Dagger is where its at. It's nice being able to fake a death and turn a bad situation around but I wouldn't give up cloaking around the map for it... Disguises just don't cut it as my only means of getting behind enemy lines. Not when 50 Pyros are running around spychecking every thing that moves.)

 

[TLMSheikant]

Toon Link is still bottom tier I see. Anyone who thinks Toon Link is actually good in brawl + needs to play him and then come back and say so.

 

[shanus]

Toon Link is still bottom tier I see. Anyone who thinks Toon Link is actually good in brawl + needs to play him and then come back and say so.

I think Toon Link is good in brawl+. I used to play against one every day. You seem to be the only one who thinks otherwise?

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

TL is bottom tier?

Now he's definitely no Metaknight, but out of curiosity what makes him bottom tier?

 

[TLMSheikant]

No combos. Trouble killing like in vbrawl and thanks to the reduced gravity its even harder >_>. Since all his kill moves are vertical. Mediocre recovery. All characters have more tools than him now. Hes just...not as good as any of the other characters. But maybe its just me. I just prefer to change mains in brawl + or quit brawl+ altogether.

 

[shanus]

No combos? Are you crazy!

Unless you play against luigi all day I just can't believe it. Bair strings are ******** easy. You can link multiple upsmashes, arrow combos, bomb combos, uair/upsmash has RIDICULOUS hitstun, its insane.

 

[TLMSheikant]

DI! Di down from bair= no combos. Try it.

 

[shanus]

You don't need to always only do multiple bairs you know....

Or if they DI down on the bair close to the ground it can force a tech chase. I'd rather eat a bair than an upsmash...

 

[TLMSheikant]

BTW im not requesting any fix to toon. I just dont care anymore for the proyect. I dont like how toon link feels in brawl+. Id rather (if i keep playing) play squirtleknight or weegee.

 

[GHNeko]

...Or you know, you could help us fix TLink if he really isnt good rather than complaining about it.

Feedback is reallly nice. You know. Something we can look at and consider?

 

[Sukai]

I think the Wi-fi room should be a counter pick stage, the place is huge and is excellent for camping characters and not-so-excellent for characters who can't handle camping very well.
It'll make for a better counterpick than a neutral, unless it's doubles, that stage is a perfect neutral for doubles.

On Kirby, just give it time for others to develop a strategy against him.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Rainbow Cruise is really a good CP for all highly mobile non-fastfallers. Ness and Lucas **** on Rainbow Cruise, Lucario does pretty well, I personally like playing Dedede here, and many others in theory would do well.
It has no major flaws or skews of the results noticable enough to ban it. People just simply don't like the stage. Which is an invaluable counterpick scenario if you do happen to like Rainbow Cruise. Pictochat is really the same way as I see it.

Norfair...meh. The stage design is pretty bad with no main platform or room to fight. Most characters have to change how they play drastically just to fight on this stage. So banning it isn't going to get any objections from me. >.>

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Plum]

As far as Wifi room goes, you might be able to put it in CP, but it is HUGE.

In doubles, it could definitely move to a neutral because it really accommodates 4 players well, and essentially becomes a larger FD minus the edge problems.

I think Norfair is a great CP stage.
Some characters just do bad here, while others excel. The rising lava is easily avoidable while not killing for a good while, the lava wall is again avoidable while being a good way to punish your opponent, the plumes give plenty of time to get out of the way before the hitbox comes out, and the wave of lava can be avoided by shielding, spot dodging, air dodging or just grabbing the ledge if you can't get the pod.
It is a great place for aerial characters while the ground oriented will struggle with so many platforms.
I think it just comes down to people not liking the stage

I'm not sure whether or not Lylat is neutral or counterpick. I guess that boils down to the preference of the TO. The moving stage does create problems, such as Kirby being able to throw characters through the stage, not to mention how you get screwed over when the stage decides to move up as you aim your recovery for the edge and miss. The layout itself is definitely neutral but eh, I guess I just don't like the stage.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Higher gravity + More momentum? Toon Link getting the Lucas treatment? =O

I do think Toon Link's Bair and Nair could be better. I think maybe Fair could either send at a lower angle or have more knockback for setting up edgeguards too. I find him pretty fun though, being able to combo into a killer was really all he needed to bump him up.

 

[cookieM0Nster]

His bair is pretty good as it is. It can combo very easily. TLink just needs a little more knockback on his smash attacks, for actual kill potential.