Brawl+ with air recovery?

[[TSON]]

Wow, tson, way to fail. It's definitely in frames, not seconds. Do you have any idea how long a second is? It's a very long time. At 100% buffer, it most certainly 10 frames, and 10% is 1 frame.

wat

Well then I am very misinformed =V

EDIT: I wasn't saying it was in seconds though, I thought 100 was 100 frames lols

 

[Kink-Link5]

Fracking decimal system. Yeah I meant 0.4 lol

200 post =D

 

[leafgreen386]

lol you're still off by a factor of 10 tson.

@Leaf:!Interesting info with regards to melee. So general attacks don't have buffer, but get up attacks and shield rolling do.

Specifically, shield rolls done with the cstick. If you tried to roll with the control stick, you would need to time it properly.

@kupo: Ah, yes, I forgot about those.

Also, lower hitstun on its own isn't gonna make the game faster. But lower hitstun with other mechanics/physics changes such as higher grav will. I'm sure that's what you meant, but... yeah.

 

[GPDP]

Just wanted to pop in and say I'm extremely pleased to hear there are plans to lower hitstun and increase gravity for the next set. Brawl+ is amazing, but it still has room for improvement, even this late into the project, and I'm glad the architects behind it are doing what IMO should've been done ages ago regarding its pacing.

 

[BEES]

The perceived hitstun would be the same though with a gravity increase.

For instance, right now a lot of the same combos are possible that were possible back when hitstun was .485, because changes to other mechanics in the game have made attacking and moving faster since then, and the amount of time you need to perform a follow-up has decreased.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

*Ahem* When I came in here I saw "5 seconds of hitstun".

Shouldn't he be flamed for THAT (even though you all shouldn't be doing so in the FIRST place) instead of getting on him for not liking the hitstun? =/

I don't see why hitstun is too large (for that matter, how it's THAT large, 5 seconds lol) for anyone, really, it seems fine, although I'm all for hitstun being lowered.

 

[Kei_Takaro]

@OP : I think that's the purpose of B+ ? ehh I dunno

 

[Deleted member]

If you have two people playing without hitstun, the better person might not win, because the battle is more intense and going back and forth. It's not about what combos you can pull off, it's about who can over take the other one. When you add hitstun to the game, it makes a chasm between people playing. Whoever gets the first hit can just combo the other person into death.

I personally play Brawl+ with the current codeset, except I take out hitstun myself. My friends and I think it's much more fun.

 

[Dan_X]

Ewwwww. I'm not sure how you guys can find that fun!! I'd hate the game without combos.

 

[kupo15]

Also, lower hitstun on its own isn't gonna make the game faster. But lower hitstun with other mechanics/physics changes such as higher grav will. I'm sure that's what you meant, but... yeah.

Yea that's what I meant. But I also meant that lower hitstun means you can react faster than before making the game feel faster because there is less waiting

The perceived hitstun would be the same though with a gravity increase.

For instance, right now a lot of the same combos are possible that were possible back when hitstun was .485, because changes to other mechanics in the game have made attacking and moving faster since then, and the amount of time you need to perform a follow-up has decreased.

Maybe. It all depends on what happens with move KB. If you keep KB where it is, you might feel as if you increased hitstun because you are reaching your peak faster. If KB is increased with an increase in hit stun (recommended) then that perception will change.

If you compare from 11.75 hitstun to now, you were in hitstun even after you hit the peak of non stomp moves but now with higher grav, you aren't in hitstun as long as before even with a higher increase in gravity.

Also, certain moves when hit at lower percents will cause tech chases instead of outright comboing because gravity pulls you to the floor faster. Being able to interrupt hitstun with a tech can help increase the speed of play because you don't have to wait as long even though your still in a little disadvantage.

Ewwwww. I'm not sure how you guys can find that fun!! I'd hate the game without combos.

I think I'd hate a game with easy combos even more.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

I think I'd hate a game with easy combos even more.

See: Many 2D fighters.

 

[kupo15]

See: Many 2D fighters.

Many 2D games are way more technical and harder. But in any case, I don't really like 2D fighters anyway.

 

[BEES]

I'm quite a fan of 2D fighters, and I would like to see longer combos in this game such as some of the amazing combos in those. What can I say? 64 was always my favorite of the Smash bros games.

I think it's possible without creating a 0-death fest. It's tricky to strike that balance though. Having enough juggling moves to make it possible, but forcing combos to include a sufficient amount of moves so that they're not easy and they're not achieved by spam.

It might require adding moves to the game.

 

[jalued]

gravity should be higher, gameplay should be faster, airdodges should be worse and hitstun should be lower.

Brawl+ is too easy atm and due to that not as fun as it could be.

But i think these are going to be implimented anyway, so ill just wait till then...

 

[ph00tbag]

Hitstun is going to be dropped next set anyways.

It shouldn't. Many combos already aren't true combos. Captain Falcon can't even finish combos on characters that have invincibility on the first or second frame. ZSS, Wolf, Mario, Marth, DK, and several others, have get out of jail free cards on Falcon already; lowering hitstun will only make airdodging out of combos easier. Air recovery should be a punishment for poor timing or over-aggressiveness. It should absolutely not be the standard.

 

[jalued]

It shouldn't. Many combos already aren't true combos. Captain Falcon can't even finish combos on characters that have invincibility on the first or second frame. ZSS, Wolf, Mario, Marth, DK, and several others, have get out of jail free cards on Falcon already; lowering hitstun will only make airdodging out of combos easier. Air recovery should be a punishment for poor timing or over-aggressiveness. It should absolutely not be the standard.

its not that though, the real problem is that the airdodge is too good. If the hitstun was lower, but the airdodge worse, then you would have to jump out of combos. This makes the game more skill oriented, and more fun for the person being comboed.

In a sense you still have real combos, just more challenging and mindgamey. Higer hitstun just means a longer time of helplessness, which isnt fun at all and makes the game iritating

 

[ph00tbag]

its not that though, the real problem is that the airdodge is too good. If the hitstun was lower, but the airdodge worse, then you would have to jump out of combos. This makes the game more skill oriented, and more fun for the person being comboed.

In a sense you still have real combos, just more challenging and mindgamey. Higer hitstun just means a longer time of helplessness, which isnt fun at all and makes the game iritating

Not being able to finish combos is pretty irritating, too. May I remind you that Melee has longer hitstun than Brawl+ as it is, and no one's irritated about it. Hell, SSB64 has even more hitstun and no normal DI, and people still just. I mean, I'm sorry if you don't think you should get duly punished for getting hit, but I was under the impression that that was the whole point, anyway.

 

[Deleted member]

Higer hitstun just means a longer time of helplessness, which isnt fun at all and makes the game iritating

This is how I feel about hitstun. You may pummel me for this, but I found vBrawl the best of the official series (Smash 64, Melee, and Brawl) for this reason. I just like Brawl+ because it increases the overall speed as well as takes away completely the hitlag, though I'm not sure if thats the official term. I mean when a hit connects, the attacker and the attackee freeze for a noticeable split second.

 

[leafgreen386]

its not that though, the real problem is that the airdodge is too good. If the hitstun was lower, but the airdodge worse, then you would have to jump out of combos. This makes the game more skill oriented, and more fun for the person being comboed.

In a sense you still have real combos, just more challenging and mindgamey. Higer hitstun just means a longer time of helplessness, which isnt fun at all and makes the game iritating

A "real" combo is one that keeps the opponent in hitstun for the duration of the combo. If you have to mindgame in the middle of your combo, then it's probably actually a string, which is consecutive hits that do not keep the foe in hitstun for its duration. Combos are simply "guaranteed" strings. I place "guaranteed" in quotations because a lot of combos are only actually guaranteed when the opponent doesn't DI correctly, and if they do, it is relegated to just being a string.

 

[kupo15]

Not being able to finish combos is pretty irritating, too. May I remind you that Melee has longer hitstun than Brawl+ as it is, and no one's irritated about it. Hell, SSB64 has even more hitstun and no normal DI, and people still just. I mean, I'm sorry if you don't think you should get duly punished for getting hit, but I was under the impression that that was the whole point, anyway.

No no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no. It has been mentioned many times that this simply is not true.

 

[jalued]

Not being able to finish combos is pretty irritating, too. May I remind you that Melee has longer hitstun than Brawl+ as it is, and no one's irritated about it. Hell, SSB64 has even more hitstun and no normal DI, and people still just. I mean, I'm sorry if you don't think you should get duly punished for getting hit, but I was under the impression that that was the whole point, anyway.

No, melee had less hitstun than brawl+, the airdodge system just sucked alot more. Try it some time, u can jump out of hitstun alot earlyer in melee than you can in brawl+

the hitstun for brawl+ is too high atm, as leaf was saying, real combos are generally guarenteed, which is boring, repetative and shallow

(edit) in some ways the melee airdodge was a bit too ****, and the brawl one is far too good. i feel however, a lean towards MAD (without directional ofc) is a better system for smash bros

 

[BEES]

What is the new airdodge system going to be? I'd be up for a lightning fast 3-4 frame spotdodge in the air. Either that or maybe an air-tech that gets you out of hitstun but offers no invincibility, so you have to attack to defend yourself.

Other games have the latter system, but in that case there are always certain risky moves you can use that are untechable, so as to prevent your opponent breaking out.

 

[jalued]

What is the new airdodge system going to be? I'd be up for a lightning fast 3-4 frame spotdodge in the air. Either that or maybe an air-tech that gets you out of hitstun but offers no invincibility, so you have to attack to defend yourself.

Other games have the latter system, but in that case there are always certain risky moves you can use that are untechable, so as to prevent your opponent breaking out.

hmm what about current airdodge, but with a massive end lag? so you dont instinctively airdodge out of everything.

how the second idea work? i dont understand?

 

[BEES]

I'd rather not have a slower airdodge. I would not make any move in the game slower at this point. Instead, I want a faster airdodge with less invincibility frames. In the latter case I mentioned, you get out of hitstun but you have no invincibility frames. So your only option is to jump away or attack to protect yourself.

 

[CloneHat]

Guys the new set has lower hitstun and no air dodge in tumble.

All your complaints are attended to.

 

[jalued]

Guys the new set has lower hitstun and no air dodge in tumble.

All your complaints are attended to.

how many months till its released? and yay, juggling will come back!

i forgot about that, no AD in tumble makes it all good.

will there be increased gravity/more speed or not? im not overly fussed.

but thanks for the comment clone

 

[GPDP]

I love how one of kupo's most wanted codes, for which he has been endlessly criticized because he pushed for it so **** much, ends up being considered again.

I'm sure he's pleased. That is, if he even cares anymore lol.

I personally liked it, though. Good thing Brawl+ is moving in a better direction IMO.

 

[kupo15]

I love how one of kupo's most wanted codes, for which he has been endlessly criticized because he pushed for it so **** much, ends up being considered again.

I'm sure he's pleased. That is, if he even cares anymore lol.

I personally liked it, though. Good thing Brawl+ is moving in a better direction IMO.

Funny how this is happening a lot recently. But hey, the same thing happened with users before me as well. I'm glad to see people being more open with this.

 

[ph00tbag]

No, melee had less hitstun than brawl+, the airdodge system just sucked alot more. Try it some time, u can jump out of hitstun alot earlyer in melee than you can in brawl+

the hitstun for brawl+ is too high atm, as leaf was saying, real combos are generally guarenteed, which is boring, repetative and shallow

(edit) in some ways the melee airdodge was a bit too ****, and the brawl one is far too good. i feel however, a lean towards MAD (without directional ofc) is a better system for smash bros

I have tried to jump out of Melee combos. I still got hit, and I lost my second jump, which basically made the rest of the combo guaranteed. So even if it has less hitstun, it feels the same, if not like there's more, due to the physics. But you can't very well do away with the physics. Most people I've spoken to who prefer Brawl prefer it because there's more overall depth in the offstage game (and I mean, way offstage). Boost the gravity and that element is lost.

And why even lower the hitstun if just about everyone who's promoting the game has little gifs in their sigs of people with terrible DI getting wailed on? It seems to me, like these people think the protracted combos make the game more interesting, even in the off-chance they're getting comboed. In this light, I'm finding it hard to believe your point that combos are boring, repetitive and shallow. Furthermore, if that's the case, then why is MvC2 so popular?

And on the point of DI, which I mentioned, I think you should reread leafgreen's post. He's actually telling you that even in B+, few combos are really guaranateed. Why? Because of Directional Influence. If you don't want to get hit with Falcon's next uair, DI down. You might even hit the ground before he gets to you and be able to tech. DI forces you and your opponent to continually keep an eye on each other throughout combos. I think DI makes the Smash combo game unique and interesting. DI was shallow in Brawl, because all you did was DI up and airdodge. I don't think Brawl+ should move in that direction.

I'm not even really saying you shouldn't be able to escape from combos. I'm saying you already can, so why make it easier?

 

[kupo15]

I have tried to jump out of Melee combos. I still got hit, and I lost my second jump, which basically made the rest of the combo guaranteed.

Then you should have FFed during tumble. You chose the wrong option.

I'm not even really saying you shouldn't be able to escape from combos. I'm saying you already can, so why make it easier?

If hitstun is lowered and they do a good job with finding the appropriate gravity level and added NADT and stuff to keep the same combos, then you will have the same situations as now except you will need to think faster. When this happens, any slight miscalculation will result in a missed combo op instead now where you have too much time to think.

 

[ph00tbag]

Then you should have FFed during tumble. You chose the wrong option.

Correction: jalued chose the wrong option. Besides, I was above them at the time, so I would have just FFed into their attack. FFing only helps so much. Technically, I should have Screw Attacked. We could spend all day discussing the options I had, but it would all be beside the point. The point is that I still had less useful options than I would if I could just get out with a Brawl airdodge, which Jalued has already admitted is too good. NADT solves that problem, though, I suppose, but it doesn't solve the problem of certain moves with invincible start-ups being downright spammable in combos.

If hitstun is lowered and they do a good job with finding the appropriate gravity level and added NADT and stuff to keep the same combos, then you will have the same situations as now except you will need to think faster. When this happens, any slight miscalculation will result in a missed combo op instead now where you have too much time to think.

I don't think you're listening. It doesn't matter how much time you have to think. The fact is, I can already escape from most combos, and plenty of other characters can, too. If my opponent has less time to think, I have even more time to DP out.

 

[jalued]

Correction: jalued chose the wrong option. Besides, I was above them at the time, so I would have just FFed into their attack. FFing only helps so much. Technically, I should have Screw Attacked. We could spend all day discussing the options I had, but it would all be beside the point. The point is that I still had less useful options than I would if I could just get out with a Brawl airdodge, which Jalued has already admitted is too good. NADT solves that problem, though, I suppose, but it doesn't solve the problem of certain moves with invincible start-ups being downright spammable in combos.


I don't think you're listening. It doesn't matter how much time you have to think. The fact is, I can already escape from most combos, and plenty of other characters can, too. If my opponent has less time to think, I have even more time to DP out.

you can escape, its possible. the problem is however that with very high histun such as is atm, alot of combos become repetative and far far too easy to pull off (think falcon... ). Its just not as fun as it should be

 

[ph00tbag]

you can escape, its possible. the problem is however that with very high histun such as is atm, alot of combos become repetative and far far too easy to pull off (think falcon... ). Its just not as fun as it should be

I think you're underestimating the difficulty of many of these combos against someone who can DI. Personally, I barely combo these days against good players. I just tech chase, since it's easier than comboing.

 

[kupo15]

I don't think you're listening. It doesn't matter how much time you have to think. The fact is, I can already escape from most combos, and plenty of other characters can, too. If my opponent has less time to think, I have even more time to DP out.

I am I don't think we are on the same page. What is the problem again? I honestly forget where we [and this thread] is going.

 

[jalued]

I think you're underestimating the difficulty of many of these combos against someone who can DI. Personally, I barely combo these days against good players. I just tech chase, since it's easier than comboing.

i think the real problem is that the higher hitstun makes the game feel unresponsive and sluggish. Thats my main complaint with it, cant wait for lower hitstun!

 

[BEES]

What is the ideal length of combos people are looking for?

 

[phantomphungus]

Personally, I want nothing like this. I think that they over did the hitstun on B+ a bit. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y97oKtFudtU

 

[BEES]

Nobody's aiming for major changes to most aspects of the gameplay, like that video would imply. However, I think certain levels of increased brokenness are ideal. That is the general direction I want the game to go.

Combos that are more than 4 hits don't have to be such a bad thing. As long as they continue the smash tradition of requiring that you read your opponent every now and then, I think they can be quite balanced.

 

[ph00tbag]

I am I don't think we are on the same page. What is the problem again? I honestly forget where we [and this thread] is going.

My entire problem with lowering hitstun is that I don't think it's necessary. It's already low enough that most combos of more than four or five hits aren't really combos, and can be escaped if you have the options and ability to do so. So it's not like lowering it will solve the problem, because the problem is already solved.

i think the real problem is that the higher hitstun makes the game feel unresponsive and sluggish. Thats my main complaint with it, cant wait for lower hitstun!

I don't really know what to say about that. It sounds like a value judgment to me. I've never felt like B+ is unresponsive and sluggish, so the argument is really falling on deaf ears here.

 

[kupo15]

My entire problem with lowering hitstun is that I don't think it's necessary. It's already low enough that most combos of more than four or five hits aren't really combos, and can be escaped if you have the options and ability to do so. So it's not like lowering it will solve the problem, because the problem is already solved.
.

I personally think that combos shouldn't be more than 2 maybe 3 in some circumstances (And I mean moves so Falcon Nair counts as 1)