Brawl+ with air recovery?

[BEES]

I personally think that combos shouldn't be more than 2 maybe 3 in some circumstances (And I mean moves so Falcon Nair counts as 1)

Perhaps Balanced Brawl is the game for you.

 

[kupo15]

Perhaps Balanced Brawl is the game for you.

Come again?

2 maybe 3 hit COMBOS as in True combos which then lead into a read (string) which will lead into another 2 probably not 3 hit COMBO. That's a 5-7 hit "combo" that consists of constant reads and correct predictions instead of 5-7 hit True combo. You know, like melee. In fact, if you look at top melee pros, you will often see combos consisting of strings that consist of 1 hit combos until the stars line up and someone is getting read like a book. The spacies are exceptions at times.

 

[ph00tbag]

Come again?

2 maybe 3 hit COMBOS as in True combos which then lead into a read (string) which will lead into another 2 probably not 3 hit COMBO. That's a 5-7 hit "combo" that consists of constant reads and correct predictions instead of 5-7 hit True combo. You know, like melee. In fact, if you look at top melee pros, you will often see combos consisting of strings that consist of 1 hit combos until the stars line up and someone is getting read like a book. The spacies are exceptions at times.

I mean, B+ is kinda like that, too. Notable exceptions are Fox, Sheik and Pikachu, and the only character for whom that's really broken is Fox.

 

[kupo15]

I think you need to watch more www.youtube.com/thewaffle77 to see if B+ comboing is in fact the same as melee comboing like you claim it to be. You see a lot of 2 hit true combos after 2 hit true combos which are very hard to do and that are separate. You can't hesitate or mess up in the slightest or else you have a good chance of losing the combo.

We should just wait and see if the lower hitstun will be as bad as you say it is.

 

[BEES]

I'm aware of the highly pedantic definition of true combos
-anything that keeps your opponent in unbroken hitstun.
-not a tech chase
-not a situation where your opponent is out of hitstun but cannot protect their hitbox due to startup lag
-not a situation where they can counterattack but their attack has lower priority than yours, allowing you to continue the follow-ups.

When you eliminate all of those, you do indeed get a game with 2-3 hit combos and 2-6 hit strings.

(Now I will note that Melee had longer true combos. Those didn't happen much because the lack of a buffer system prevented frame perfection. So we'll ignore that detail).

So what we're mostly talking about is the strings. I am being very serious when I say I want longer strings. Dead serious. I want to see more strings that are not tech-chases, and that are universal to more characters and not interruptible with one or two character's attacks. I would consider the combos/strings in pro-level melee a bit short for my tastes, and I think they're too repetitive.

Ideally I think a game would have -

3-6 hit strings (depending on the character) that require a functioning knowledge of 3 of a character's moves or more.

6-15 hit strings (depending on the character) at top-level play, with the incorporation of ATs.

I think the average stock of a character should last say, 10-15 less seconds than it currently does in B+, with the addition of a 5th stock to the game to compensate.

 

[ph00tbag]

I think you need to watch more www.youtube.com/thewaffle77 to see if B+ comboing is in fact the same as melee comboing like you claim it to be. You see a lot of 2 hit true combos after 2 hit true combos which are very hard to do and that are separate. You can't hesitate or mess up in the slightest or else you have a good chance of losing the combo.

We should just wait and see if the lower hitstun will be as bad as you say it is.

I was at a tournament last weekend where LoZR comboed Chaddd for a good 7 or 8 hits several times over a period of three or four matches. Dr. Peepee then proceeded to combo LoZR zero to death at least once in Winner's finals. Armada combos DaShizWhiz, Lucky, Lunin and even Mango in those videos from HMW. I know much better than you seem aware that Melee has incredible combo potential. But I realize that combos are the result of quick thinking and manipulation, and that often these players must resort to strings and tech chases.

What you need to do, is start watching matches of good players playing B+ and note that usually the same stuff happens. Combos just happen more these days because fewer people know the proper DI for moves.

I'm not so much saying it'll be bad if this get changed as much as I'm saying it's not necessary for game balance, so why the hell even bother?

 

[jalued]

I was at a tournament last weekend where LoZR comboed Chaddd for a good 7 or 8 hits several times over a period of three or four matches. Dr. Peepee then proceeded to combo LoZR zero to death at least once in Winner's finals. Armada combos DaShizWhiz, Lucky, Lunin and even Mango in those videos from HMW. I know much better than you seem aware that Melee has incredible combo potential. But I realize that combos are the result of quick thinking and manipulation, and that often these players must resort to strings and tech chases.

What you need to do, is start watching matches of good players playing B+ and note that usually the same stuff happens. Combos just happen more these days because fewer people know the proper DI for moves.

I'm not so much saying it'll be bad if this get changed as much as I'm saying it's not necessary for game balance, so why the hell even bother?

well its also casue u cant airdodge out of "combos" in melee, so they are much more possible. In brawl+ it just kinda gets irritating for the comboed persondue to the long hitstun where u cant do anything at all, and also annoying for the comboer when they airdodge out of something that should really be completely possible. I just dont think the balance is there atm like it is in melee

 

[kupo15]

I would consider the combos/strings in pro-level melee a bit short for my tastes, and I think they're too repetitive.

I think the reason why you see a lot of short combos isn't because the game isn't capable of doing so, its because its really hard to do a perfect long combo (strings and all). I think this is much better because then you always have to be perfect at that moment to combo well. I think the combos seem repetitive mainly because its been split open so much by the community and its been out for 9 yrs which I think can happen to any game.

well its also casue u cant airdodge out of "combos" in melee, so they are much more possible. In brawl+ it just kinda gets irritating for the comboed persondue to the long hitstun where u cant do anything at all, and also annoying for the comboer when they airdodge out of something that should really be completely possible. I just dont think the balance is there atm like it is in melee

@Phoot. This sums up my feelings pretty well.

 

[ph00tbag]

well its also casue u cant airdodge out of "combos" in melee, so they are much more possible. In brawl+ it just kinda gets irritating for the comboed persondue to the long hitstun where u cant do anything at all, and also annoying for the comboer when they airdodge out of something that should really be completely possible. I just dont think the balance is there atm like it is in melee

Fox and Falco have one frame shines that they can do out of combos. Several characters have DPs that they can do out of combos--Marth's is even a KO move. Several characters have quick aerials that they can use to break up combos.

And as far as balance, I can't even possibly understand what you want. You don't want the comboer to be frustrated because they can't combo someone, but you also don't want the comboee to be frustrated because they can't escape the combo? Well which is it? Either way, someone's going to be disappointed. Personally, I'd much rather have the comboee be disappointed, because they deserve it.

 

[CloneHat]

Umm, what's the point of this topic?

It doesn't seem to be getting anywhere or proving anything, just arguing about how long combos are or should be. Nobody has made a case.

Play the new set with NADT and lower hitstun. It's a lot more like Melee, wether that's good news or bad news for you.

 

[Zschalix]

I'm not entirely sure that hitstun is all he's having trouble with if he's dying at 70%.......

Keep in mind that falling speed and other mechanics aren't the same as vBrawl.

As for a fix.... Just always keep in mind that bowser and DK probably arent gonna be recovering from below a stage anymore. And expect this.

 

[BEES]

Can we just agree that DI is top tier? It's broken. Grav increase can't happen soon enough.

I suspect a gravity increase + airdodge nerf + hitstun decrease would have a net effect of zero on combo length. They would start to look more like Melee combos, but as I and others have said those are very similar in length to B+.

I've said that I want longer combos, but more hitstun is not what I want. No problems with the changes being proposed from this corner.

 

[ph00tbag]

I suspect a gravity increase + airdodge nerf + hitstun decrease would have a net effect of zero on combo length. They would start to look more like Melee combos, but as I and others have said those are very similar in length to B+.

I'm saying I agree with this. I'm also saying that the other effects of a gravity increase, which Zschalix has kindly pointed out, are not necessarily conducive to making a balanced game. Quite the contrary, characters who already suck offstage would be totally screwed, and characters who have excellent recoveries would be that much better as a result. Like I've said, there are people who prefer vBrawl because being offstage is not as deadly as in Melee, and now you want more Melee-like physics in B+? When Brawl's offstage game is more interesting than Melee's?

That's my point. You're not changing the combo game at all. You're just making the offstage game more boring.

 

[Shadic]

If they increase Upgravity and increase jump strength to compensate, all they're doing is making it so you hit the apex of your jump faster, not making you fall any quicker.

 

[Slashy]

I'm saying I agree with this. I'm also saying that, given the other effects of a gravity increase, which Zschalix has kindly pointed out, are not necessarily conducive to making a balanced game. Quite the contrary, characters who already suck offstage would be totally screwed, and characters who have excellent recoveries would be that much better as a result. Like I've said, there are people who prefer vBrawl because being offstage is not as deadly as in Melee, and now you want more Melee-like physics in B+? When Brawl's offstage game is more interesting than Melee's?

That's my point. You're not changing the combo game at all. You're just making the offstage game more boring.

I agree with this.

 

[GPDP]

If they increase Upgravity and increase jump strength to compensate, all they're doing is making it so you hit the apex of your jump faster, not making you fall any quicker.

This. Upgrav has absolutely nothing to do with fall speed. The only downside to increasing it is it may also have an adverse effect on recoveries, but that only applies to some of the cast, hence why some characters do not have altered upgrav.

 

[Shadic]

And those with altered upgrav and momentum-based recoveries typically get buffs to their recoveries to compensate anyways.

 

[Kitamerby]

Umm, what's the point of this topic?

It doesn't seem to be getting anywhere or proving anything, just arguing about how long combos are or should be. Nobody has made a case.

Play the new set with NADT and lower hitstun. It's a lot more like Melee, wether that's good news or bad news for you.

NADT?

What is NADT?

 

[Shadic]

No Airdodge during tumble.

 

[ph00tbag]

If they increase Upgravity and increase jump strength to compensate, all they're doing is making it so you hit the apex of your jump faster, not making you fall any quicker.

This is not what I'm getting out of the arguments so far. I've not heard anyone say anything about Upgravity before. I'd be interested if you'd explain it further.

 

[Shadic]

I'm pretty sure UpGravity has been the main thing discussed since before 5.0 (Sorry, but calling it a Release Candidate is stupid) came out.

Basically, UpGravity is the force enacted on a character only when they're traveling upward. So by increasing that, and changing jumps to compensate, you end up with jumps that finish quicker.

Also important to note: Gravity and Fall Speed are different. Same with weight.

 

[Shell]

The only thing being talked about is the conversion of all characters' down-grav to full-grav.

In essence, d-grav does not take effect as you are rising during your jump, whereas full-grav does. When we did gravities months back, we didn't have as much control over move timings, and were therefore stuck leaving most characters with more d-grav than f-grav to get certain aerial timings to work.

This leads to unnatural jumps, falling faster than they rise. Converting remaining d-grav to f-grav and compensating anything this messes up would just make movement feel more natural and slightly faster without changing anyone's recovery.

 

[GPDP]

That's good to hear. I've been pushing for that to happen for a long time, and it's finally happening, which pleases me to no end.

 

[ph00tbag]

Basically, UpGravity is the force enacted on a character only when they're traveling upward. So by increasing that, and changing jumps to compensate, you end up with jumps that finish quicker.

Well, that's not particularly desirable for me, either. SH double uair is vital to ZSS' combo game, and she only has about 3 or four frames max to pull it off as it is. Her dtilt has already been nerfed hard, and she's the last character that deserves a nerf.

 

[Shell]

ph00tbag, we can control timings for everything. When I played with Ganon's physics a couple months back I lessened his SH time by two frames, so I adjusted the AC window on his Dair accordingly to match the old window.

Everyone needs have a bit of faith and just relax.

 

[IC3R]

5 second hitstun my ***, it barely lasts 1 second on most attacks. You played Melee bro? It's got more hitstun than Brawl+ but I don't see you trolling them "LOL U SHUD PLAY BARWL CUZ WE KANT COMB0"

I recall some numbers being thrown out one day showing that the hitstun amd gravity of Brawl+ were actually higher than Melee's (though for the life of me, I can't find the post). It doesn't feel like it because the animations in Melee seem a lot choppier---to me anyway.

 

[ph00tbag]

ph00tbag, we can control timings for everything. When I played with Ganon's physics a couple months back I lessened his SH time by two frames, so I adjusted the AC window on his Dair accordingly to match the old window.

Everyone needs have a bit of faith and just relax.

That makes sense.

I still don't think it's necessary. That's all I've been saying all along.

 

[Dan_X]

I recall some numbers being thrown out one day showing that the hitstun amd gravity of Brawl+ were actually higher than Melee's (though for the life of me, I can't find the post). It doesn't feel like it because the animations in Melee seem a lot choppier---to me anyway.

The hitstun in Brawl+ IS longer than Melee. I forget what Melee's constant is. vBrawl and Melee have the same hitstun constant only Brawl's hitstun is cancelabke, as such it may as well not exist.

As far as gravity, I'm not sure...

 

[SymphonicSage12]

both vbrawl and melee have the same hitstun (.40 ) , but vbrawl's is cancelleable.

5.0 rc1's is .48, and cape's latest set has .46.